Anyone following the Pastor Rick Warren tragedy and criticism?

[Lisa R.]

Rick Warren is a best-selling author and pastor of an Protestant church in California. I know who Rick Warren is but do not follow him closely. I have heard of his books but have never read them. His youngest son, who had struggled with mental illness his whole life, tragically committed suicide last weekend.

 

Now, it appears many are using this opportunity to criticize Rick Warren. Of choosing to criticize him now, is there no compassion? I don't care who Rick Warren is; he has suffered a great loss. What could possibly be the motivation for this, other than cruelty? What am I missing here?

[Aslana]

I am not making excuses for those criticizing Warren at all (it is deplorable) but I think they could possibly be doing so because he's not just the pastor at a Protestant Church. He also moderated a town hall meeting between Obama and McCain way back and drew lots of flack from the way he handled that. Plus, there are a lot of other (very political) things he did that some are very angry at him for doing.

 

I'm trying to not turn it political at all, so I would suggest just googling Rick Warren and his opposition and find out what the other side is saying about him. Again, I am NOT justifying the bashing because I don't agree with the bashing, but at least this will give you an idea of why they might be bashing him.

[Rebecca VA]

I don't agree with many of his stances, but this isn't the time to focus on that. It's the time to remember his son, who suffered from depression, and his family, who will miss him every day of their lives.

[Aslana]

I agree but she did ask what she might be missing so I directed her to a location that could possibly tell her what she was missing (even if the bashing is wrong).

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't think the OP is missing anything. There is no reasonable motivation. There's nothing other than cruelty that could cause people to react that way, other than cruelty or extreme foolishness. There's a special kind of wickedness and hate that can bash a parent who loses a child to suicide caused by mental illness, because any individual possessing a modicum of humanity and any intelligence at all would know and humbly remember that this type of calamity can strike any family. No one is above it, no one is immune. Only foolish and evil persons take such an opportunity to mock.

 

I say that as a person who personally holds Rick Warren responsible for destroying her church home of over 20 years with his Purpose-Driven Church ideology and cult-like following. He's brought nothing but destruction anywhere that I've personally seen his influence. But he didn't cause his son's death and as a fellow parent I weep with him and for him. I allow no decent kind of excuse for any person who chooses otherwise. Not when it's about the suicide of child who suffered from mental illness. Nothing but pity. Nothing but pity.

[PrincessMommy]

I am not making excuses for those criticizing Warren at all (it is deplorable) but I think they could possibly be doing so because he's not just the pastor at a Protestant Church. He also moderated a town hall meeting between Obama and McCain way back and drew lots of flack from the way he handled that. Plus, there are a lot of other (very political) things he did that some are very angry at him for doing.

 

I'm trying to not turn it political at all, so I would suggest just googling Rick Warren and his opposition and find out what the other side is saying about him. Again, I am NOT justifying the bashing because I don't agree with the bashing, but at least this will give you an idea of why they might be bashing him.

 

 

I understand what you are saying... but when in history has this kind of thing happened before? Surely there has always been people who disagree with a pastor, politician's or artist's public stances... but did they ever act like that during such a tragic event?

[sassenach]

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

 

Pastors have intimate, bone deep, gut wrenching knowledge of the truth of this verse. People are criticizing because apart from Jesus, we're all broken and subject to the evil forces of this world. Rick's grace in this has been a stunning testimony of the forgiveness of Christ.

[Lisa R.]

I am not making excuses for those criticizing Warren at all (it is deplorable) but I think they could possibly be doing so because he's not just the pastor at a Protestant Church. He also moderated a town hall meeting between Obama and McCain way back and drew lots of flack from the way he handled that. Plus, there are a lot of other (very political) things he did that some are very angry at him for doing.

 

I'm trying to not turn it political at all, so I would suggest just googling Rick Warren and his opposition and find out what the other side is saying about him. Again, I am NOT justifying the bashing because I don't agree with the bashing, but at least this will give you an idea of why they might be bashing him.

 

 

 

I understand Warren is a polarizing individual because of his political views. But this isn't about politics. This is about the death of a child. This is about mental illness. This tragic event has nothing to do with politics. Can we not suspend the political differences while he and his family are grieving?

[Aslana]

 

I understand what you are saying... but when in history has this kind of thing happened before? Surely there has always been people who disagree with a pastor, politician's or artist's public stances... but did they ever act like that during such a tragic event?

 

 

 

Margaret Thatcher

Everyone ever picketed by Westboro Baptist

 

Just to name two. Yes, it has happened before. Granted, Thatcher did not die of mental illness (though she was suffering from Dementia) and Westboro pickets anyone with breathe in them no matter who they are, the point is that there are people who WILL do these things against another person who has just lost a loved one and that yes, they do act like this during such a tragic event.

 

Rick Warren is not alone in this. There are many, many people who have received what he's receiving now.

[Aslana]

Oh good gravy. The OP asked what she was missing. She asked why people would do this. I AM NOT TURNING THIS POLITICAL PEOPLE. Back off. I simply told them OP what to look for if she truly wished to find out why some people would sink that low.

 

Yes, he lost a child. To a mental illness. He is not the only one and he won't ever be the only one who has done so. Please stop acting like this is a national tragedy here. I am not defending the people who have said bad things--they are deplorable. I simply gave the OP options to look for answers to her question.

[*Lulu*]

Oh good gravy. The OP asked what she was missing. She asked why people would do this. I AM NOT TURNING THIS POLITICAL PEOPLE. Back off. I simply told them OP what to look for if she truly wished to find out why some people would sink that low.

 

Yes, he lost a child. To a mental illness. He is not the only one and he won't ever be the only one who has done so. Please stop acting like this is a national tragedy here. I am not defending the people who have said bad things--they are deplorable. I simply gave the OP options to look for answers to her question.

 

 

I don't think anyone was accusing you of turning it political. The outrage and disbelief other posters are expressing seemed to me to be directed at those turning a family's tragedy into a platform for thier grievances.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Nobody needs to back off, Aslana. Disagreeing is not attacking, further questioning is not attacking. I don't think people are asking why Rick Warren is hated, but rather what is the mechanism that turns off basic humanity at times like this...it's a discussion, not a debate. Your post #9 answers the question being asked. You are part of the conversation. No one has accused you of politicizing the argument or sympathizing with the depraved attackers. No need to take this personally.

[Lisa R.]

 

 

Margaret Thatcher

Everyone ever picketed by Westboro Baptist

 

Just to name two. Yes, it has happened before. Granted, Thatcher did not die of mental illness (though she was suffering from Dementia) and Westboro pickets anyone with breathe in them no matter who they are, the point is that there are people who WILL do these things against another person who has just lost a loved one and that yes, they do act like this during such a tragic event.

 

Rick Warren is not alone in this. There are many, many people who have received what he's receiving now.

 

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Aslana. I do see you point about this happening before with Margaret Thatcher. I don't think Westboro is a good example, though, for...anything as I think those people are equal parts wicked, irrational, hateful. They are a very small group that has no supporters outside of their church made up mostly of family members.

 

Warren's criticism is coming from many fronts, it appears. I partly blame people for allowing the internet for removing their filter. I can't imagine most of these people would stand up in public and say such things. I'm also not making excuses. It's hateful, wicked, and inexcusable.

[Aslana]

I don't think anyone was accusing you of turning it political. The outrage and disbelief other posters area expressing seemed to me to be directed at those turning a family's tragedy into a platform for thier grievances.

 

 

 

Thanks. But I point you in the direction of Lisa R.'s post who did accuse me of attempting to turn it political. No, no I am not. Losing a child (ANYONE) is a sad thing. I was merely conveying to the OP that if she really wanted the answer to her question, she could easily find it.

 

I am not defending the fools who bash anyone over the death of their child. I merely helping someone understand why those fools would do so (beyond the "they are fools" line).

[Caroline]

 

 

Thanks. But I point you in the direction of Lisa R.'s post who did accuse me of attempting to turn it political. No, no I am not. Losing a child (ANYONE) is a sad thing. I was merely conveying to the OP that if she really wanted the answer to her question, she could easily find it.

 

I am not defending the fools who bash anyone over the death of their child. I merely helping someone understand why those fools would do so (beyond the "they are fools" line).

 

 

No she didn't. She just reiterated her original question. Why are people doing this? Why can't people set aside their political differences in the face of tragedy?

[LucyStoner]

Say what? The only people who use a child's mental illness and sucide against a public figure are people so low they are not worth listening to EVER, about anything. When people show you who they really are by acting like that? Listen to them. And stay away. It takes a pretty nasty piece of work to even consider making this a platform for condemning anyone.

[*Lulu*]

 

 

 

Thanks. But I point you in the direction of Lisa R.'s post who did accuse me of attempting to turn it political. No, no I am not. Losing a child (ANYONE) is a sad thing. I was merely conveying to the OP that if she really wanted the answer to her question, she could easily find it.

 

I am not defending the fools who bash anyone over the death of their child. I merely helping someone understand why those fools would do so (beyond the "they are fools" line).

 

 

 

Obviously you and I are reading that post differently.

 

My personal first rule of the forums- Only take it personally if there is no other interpretation possible.

[Aslana]

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Aslana. I do see you point about this happening before with Margaret Thatcher. I don't think Westboro is a good example, though, for...anything as I think those people are equal parts wicked, irrational, hateful. They are a very small group that has no supporters outside of their church made up mostly of family members.

 

 

I think I placed Westboro in that list because they illicit the same questions the OP was asking--why would anyone do this--and Westboro clearly is an example of anyone who would do something so nasty. You are correct that they are some of the most vile and hateful people around, though.

 

As for Thatcher, just read about her. Like her or not, she does not deserve the vitriol and hate that is coming out of the mouths of some. Similarly to that of Warren.

 

(I cannot multi-quote, I apologize)

 

Tibbie Dunbar

 

 

Posted Today, 05:33 PM

Nobody needs to back off, Aslana. Disagreeing is not attacking, further questioning is not attacking. I don't think people are asking why Rick Warren is hated, but rather what is the mechanism that turns off basic humanity at times like this...it's a discussion, not a debate. Your post #9 answers the question being asked. You are part of the conversation. No one has accused you of politicizing the argument or sympathizing with the depraved attackers. No need to take this personally.

 

 

Which is why I had directed the OP to search for the opposition to Warren and that it went beyond his faith. By doing so, she could possibly understand that mechanism (as you put it) that turns off basic humanity. Especially since some of the things she'd find are as out there as some of the things Westboro spouts, so it would be very easy for her to discern what this mechanism might be.

[Lisa R.]

 

 

 

 

Which is why I had directed the OP to search for the opposition to Warren and that it went beyond his faith. By doing so, she could possibly understand that mechanism (as you put it) that turns off basic humanity. Especially since some of the things she'd find are as out there as some of the things Westboro spouts, so it would be very easy for her to discern what this mechanism might be.

 

 

I don't disagree that Warren is a polarizing political figure.

 

Do I understand you correctly: Are you saying Warren's views and Westboro's views are similar?

 

To clear things up, when I said "we" should set politics aside at a time of tragedy like this, I was referring to the "universal we"; it was not directed at you.

[Seasider]

I wholeheartedly agree that the death of Warren's son is absolutely no grounds for his critics to rally. It is tragic. Honorable folks neither kick a man when he is down, nor shoot him when his back is turned.

 

Like Tibbie, I watched not one but two churches I attended go down in flames trying to implement Warren's church growth movement strategies, strangling the faith of many involved. So I could be counted among his critics - any OTHER day of the week. To lose a child, especially in such a manner, is every parent's nightmare.

 

I would like to say something though, that is NOT a stab at Warren but at conservative Christian churches in general (and particularly those that are more conservative in theology than what Rick Warren espouses). Many have a terrible track record of treating mental illness. Until brain illnesses are recognized as bona fide physical conditions, I'm afraid tragedies related to nonexistent or archaic counseling methods will continue.

[Lisa R.]

 

 

I would like to say something though, that is NOT a stab at Warren but at conservative Christian churches in general (and particularly those that are more conservative in theology than what Rick Warren espouses). Many have a terrible track record of treating mental illness. Until brain illnesses are recognized as bona fide physical conditions, I'm afraid tragedies related to nonexistent or archaic counseling methods will continue.

 

 

 

This is a good point. Perhaps this tragedy will bring churches like this more awareness and education about mental illness.

[Audrey]

 

I understand what you are saying... but when in history has this kind of thing happened before? Surely there has always been people who disagree with a pastor, politician's or artist's public stances... but did they ever act like that during such a tragic event?

 

 

I think it's awful what people are saying/doing, but it happens frequently, perhaps in less high profile reporting, but it happens often. I think it's a symptom of the Internet Age. Relative anonymity and an easy avenue for expression will bring out the worst of the pack, and some people will jump on the bandwagon just because it is so easy -- and because they can. Parallel to that, we are saturated with instant news, and we hear about this constantly. It may even be that the crappy people aren't even that great in number, but constant media reports will always make it appear like a massive event, whether it is or isn't.

[Aslana]

I don't disagree that Warren is a polarizing political figure.

 

Do I understand you correctly: Are you saying Warren's views and Westboro's views are similar?

 

To clear things up, when I said "we" should set politics aside at a time of tragedy like this, I was referring to the "universal we"; it was not directed at you.

 

No no no no... I'm saying that the people who are criticizing Warren during this tragedy spew the same type of vitriol as Westboro Baptist does to those whose funerals they protest. Both the critics of Warren and the WBB are full of idiots who are spewing vitriol and hate towards people who do not deserve it at all.

 

That's what I'm saying.

[LucyStoner]

Margaret Thatcher

Everyone ever picketed by Westboro Baptist

 

Rick Warren is not alone in this. There are many, many people who have received what he's receiving now.

 

This is apt. Anyone who would latch onto a family tragedy as a means to condemn a theological or political foe is pretty much as low as Westboro Baptist Church IMO.

 

Also, the fact that there are people who are crass and reprehensible in the face of other people's suffering in no way exonerates anyone using this as a way to attack Rick Warren.

 

I simply told them OP what to look for if she truly wished to find out why some people would sink that low.

 

Yes, he lost a child. To a mental illness. He is not the only one and he won't ever be the only one who has done so. Please stop acting like this is a national tragedy here.

 

I don't at all agree that political differences or theological differences are a reason that people would sink low enough to attack someone because their son committed suicide. There are plenty of people who care neither for his theology or political choices yet who would never dream of making this the fodder for attacks. The only reason people sink this low is because they are that low. They can't blame their lack of character on their religious, personal or political differences with Rick Warren or anyone else.

 

As for this not being a "national tragedy", you are correct. But it is still a personal and family tradgedy in the life of a public person. People need to have some sense of decency. When people don't, they are publicly declaring themselves to be obnoxious and very teeny people who need at the very least a lesson in manners and perhaps a swift kick in the pants. Perhaps the national tragedy is that we have more than a handful of citizens, some very publicly known, who are nasty enough to be attacking a family in the wake of a loss. Is it a new level of nastiness? Sadly not, but that doesn't make it any more palatable or acceptable.

[Aslana]

kjipt, I am not the bad guy here. Please remember that I simply tried to help the OP understand why someone would sink this low by giving her examples and how to find those examples. I do think it goes much further than "people are just that low". There's more to it.

 

Look at the two people in this very thread who have stated that they have issues with Warren's ideologies and theologies. They never once attacked him personally or this tragedy. But, those ideologies and theologies that they have issue with, may very well be the reason why some are attacking him.

 

Doesn't make it right, no way. But it does explain the why.

[PrincessMommy]

 

 

Margaret Thatcher

Everyone ever picketed by Westboro Baptist

 

Just to name two. Yes, it has happened before. Granted, Thatcher did not die of mental illness (though she was suffering from Dementia) and Westboro pickets anyone with breathe in them no matter who they are, the point is that there are people who WILL do these things against another person who has just lost a loved one and that yes, they do act like this during such a tragic event.

 

Rick Warren is not alone in this. There are many, many people who have received what he's receiving now.

 

Well, I have to chuckle, because I almost included MT in my question, but didn't because I didn't want the conversation to go off track. IMO she kind of overlaps with RW, since both deaths happened within a week of each other. Westboro, gosh, don't know what to think about them. They seem almost to have a special place all to themselves and outside of what appears to be happening on the internet. It's not like there are tons of people who go out and cheer on Westboro when they picket. - if that makes sense.

 

I'm very saddened to hear you say that many, many people have received what RW is receiving now.

[Lisa R.]

kjipt, I am not the bad guy here.

 

 

Hey, Aslana, no one here on this thread is attacking or criticizing you. Here on this forum we have conversations where we sometimes agree and sometimes disagree in the course of our internet conversations. Sometimes people here do respond rudely or inappropriately. That hasn't happened here yet, so hopefully we can continue to have a productive discussion.

 

I appreciate the input you've given in this thread.

[Aslana]

If you wish not to be further saddened, Princess Mommy, do not google anyone famous after their death. Especially those who were very much in the limelight. You will lose your faith in humanity reading those comments.

[PrincessMommy]

kjipt, I am not the bad guy here. Please remember that I simply tried to help the OP understand why someone would sink this low by giving her examples and how to find those examples. I do think it goes much further than "people are just that low". There's more to it.

 

Look at the two people in this very thread who have stated that they have issues with Warren's ideologies and theologies. They never once attacked him personally or this tragedy. But, those ideologies and theologies that they have issue with, may very well be the reason why some are attacking him.

 

Doesn't make it right, no way. But it does explain the why.

 

You see, I don't think it does explain why. As I said before, there's plenty of people in history who people will disagreed with - and disagree quite strongly. What about when Christopher Hitchens died? Did his family get this treatment on the scale it's been with RW? Did people riot when Winston Churchill died? (I picked two polarizing people to make my point, not to discuss their beliefs or politics.)

 

I'm sure you didn't mean to become the spokesperson for those people. Sorry if it seems like we're all jumping on you at once. I've learned the hard way that sometimes it's best NOT to be the first to reply :closedeyes:

[Aslana]

You see, I don't think it does explain why. As I said before, there's plenty of people in history who people will disagreed with - and disagree quite strongly. What about when Christopher Hitchens died? Did his family get this treatment on the scale it's been with RW? Did people riot when Winston Churchill died? (I picked two polarizing people to make my point, not to discuss their beliefs or politics.)

 

I'm sure you didn't mean to become the spokesperson for those people. Sorry if it seems like we're all jumping on you at once. I've learned the hard way that sometimes it's best NOT to be the first to reply :closedeyes:

 

 

I did feel like people misunderstood what I was trying to say. To use your two examples though--yes, people DID picket Hitchens and Churchill's funeral much in the same way WBB pickets funeral and much in the same way people are bashing Warren now.

 

But even though you said it wasn't about their beliefs or politics, I believe it is. I do believe people in general feel powerless to say anything while these people are alive and thus, they use the tragedy of death to finally have their say. It doesn't make it right by any stretch, but it does, again, explain the why they do it question.

 

I know you'd like to think their aren't these mean and nasty people in the world and I'm sure you don't actually believe their aren't. But sadly, beliefs and politics are the two things that will always bring a group together--in good and in bad and sometimes in both. That's why I do feel it is about those things more than just people being mean and nasty.

[Catwoman]

Aslana, you don't need to keep defending yourself. Seriously. I don't think you've been misunderstood, and I don't even think most people have disagreed with you. I'm sensing that there is a general consensus here on the original topic.

 

I'll say this as gently as I can -- you seem to be fighting a battle that doesn't exist.

 

I think most of us are in agreement on this issue, which is to say that it's a rotten thing to pick on anyone who has just lost a child, even if you disagree with everything that person stands for. There will be plenty of time in the future for people to air their grievances, but in the case of Rick Warren, now is not that time.

[Lilaclady]

There is a reason I don't bother reading comments section anymore. It seems people now use it for their personal 15 minutes of fame rant. People say things that I am sure they will not say out to others in their presence. It is such a shame

[Happy]

It's evil, plain and simple. It's a weird combination of jealousy, envy, and hate. Jealous and envy because of a person's fame/wealth or status...hate. Sigh. Who understands hate?

 

This brings to mind an incident I had on FB. On the day Steven Covey passed away, I posted a quote from his writings I particularly enjoyed....one of my 'friends' commented that we shouldn't listen to anyone but Christ and since SC was Mormon she bet he was surprised he wasn't 'saved'...

 

It was rude, stupid, narrow minded and simply took my breath away. It was the last day of our 'friendship.' I figure people like her are those people making those awful comments.

 

Sad, sad, sad.

[justamouse]

No matter how polarizing the person is, no matter how much you dislike them, when that person's child dies, the RIGHT response is to mourn with them. Period.

 

The others who aren't just got caught with their pants around their ankles.

[Joanne]

II would like to say something though, that is NOT a stab at Warren but at conservative Christian churches in general (and particularly those that are more conservative in theology than what Rick Warren espouses). Many have a terrible track record of treating mental illness. Until brain illnesses are recognized as bona fide physical conditions, I'm afraid tragedies related to nonexistent or archaic counseling methods will continue.

 

 

AMEN.

[TravelingChris]

From what I understood, Rick Warren and his wife tried medical treatments for his son. It could very well be that his son, like my son. and approximately 20% of major depression sufferers, had the type that current medications do not help. If uyou understand the Major depression is a common illnesses and that 20% do not seem to be helped by medications, you can start understanding the anger I feel at someone blaming RW for this.

 

I agree with some of the other posters here who say that the comment sections of many news sites, including newspapers and tv news sites, are just rife with rude, obnoxious comments. Those venues seem to get most of their comments from rude, nasty people.

[Liz CA]

Now, it appears many are using this opportunity to criticize Rick Warren. Of choosing to criticize him now, is there no compassion? I don't care who Rick Warren is; he has suffered a great loss. What could possibly be the motivation for this, other than cruelty? What am I missing here?

 

 

 

There is a saying: Christians always shoot their own.

Unfortunately, true in many instances.

[Twinmom]

If anyone is interested, this personal friend of Rick Warren explained the "why" of it pretty well as he sees it. Well said, IMHO.

 

http://pastormark.tv/2013/04/10/rick-warren-critics-and-the-hope-of-god-s-son

[SpecialClassical]

I read a quote from RW saying they had done everything, including seeing the best doctors in the country in an effort to help their son.

 

Also, I come from a theologically conservative church that is non -judgmental and very supportive of anyone with a mental health issue. Understanding that the brain can experience trauma or illness like the rest of the body is growing, I believe. And I say that as a mom of a brain injured child with a hidden disability.

 

 

[butterflymommy]

My heart sank through the floor when I heard this news, not only because of the deep tragedy of suicide and mental illness, but because I knew people would be coming out of the woodwork to use it as an opportunity to bash, spread rumors, and criticize. What's even sadder is that I'm sure his son knew this would happen, too, but for whatever reason he could no longer bear the pain and took his own life regardless. The whole situation resonates deeply for me and I feel so sad for his parents and loved ones. I would hope anyone of any religion, or lack of religion, would behave decently, and if they want to criticize his father or faith, not do it in the context of the suicide.

[Liz CA]

If anyone is interested, this personal friend of Rick Warren explained the "why" of it pretty well as he sees it. Well said, IMHO.

 

http://pastormark.tv...pe-of-god-s-son

 

 

Good article. Thank you for linking.

[SKL]

Sad that people can be so sick in their soul. I do not think this is all that unusual, and that's a very concerning, depressing thought. ... (FTR, I am not pro- or anti- Rick Warren.)