Friends standing by criminals?

[Skadi]

There's a couple we know in our HS social group. We aren't really friends...I mean, we have never spent time together alone. But they're good friends with our good friends, and we often see them at social gatherings. I'll call them Steve and Sue.

 

A little while ago, it was discovered by the local business Steve worked for that he had been embezzling from them for years. Thousands and thousands of dollars--we don't have an exact number (the business is only pursuing the cases that are most concrete so they can be sure to get a conviction). Steve and Sue admitted to it. Steve said this was an awakening for him to come to Christ (even though they were super religious before this, but whatever).

 

All our good friends are "standing by them." They say that as Christians, they feel that they should forgive his sin and accept his apologies.

 

As far as I am concerned, if you do not "repent" until you get caught, then you're not really sorry. You're just sorry you got caught. I have kept my opinion to myself, but Sue has said on FaceBook that "you can't get blood from a turnip" in response to someone asking if she is concerned about their family being required to pay restitution when it goes to court. So even though they admit their guilt (they schemed together), they aren't in the least bit interested in paying back what they owe. Steve has also said on FB that he appreciates the Christians who are standing by him, and he prays for those who are not walking with him in Christ, yadda yadda. In other words, he's calling any Christian who doesn't stand with him un-Christ-like. If you ask me, their attitude has not been what I would call "repentant."

 

Honestly, I am fed up. I think these self-righteous hypocrites are throwing a never-ending pity party when they should be humble and gracious. Saying "I'm sorry" without deeds (e.g. paying the business back in small increments) is worthless. I am appalled that my Christian friends, who are always going on about "by their fruits shall ye know them" are not calling them out on any of this. (I'm not Christian, fwiw.)

 

I know it's different, but I can't help but think that this kind of mentality, where you ignore past and present behavior because they are friends and "good people," is the same M.O. for people who stand by "pillars of the community" who are discovered to be pedophiles. I can't help but feel that my friends are giving this couple a free pass. Steve and Sue are thieves. They've been thieves for years. They are still being judgmental and are not interested in repaying the victims of their crimes. They are acting like they are being "persecuted" and that they are martyrs. Bleh.

 

I guess the point of this post is, would you be honest with your friends about how you feel about Steve and Sue? So far when it has come up, I've passed the bean dip. Honesty is extremely important to me, so I hate keeping my feelings from them.

 

I know I'll have to see this couple at certain events we're all signed up for, so if I just kept my feelings hidden, it'd be a lot easier to avoid them without anyone noticing. How would you deal with this situation? I feel like I am being a hypocrite by caving to social pressure to not even express myself in the confidence of my friends for fear of offending them. No matter how nicely I put it, the implication would be that they too are doing wrong by standing by them. Maybe I'm just being too judgmental. I don't know.

[Catwoman]

They stole money.

They didn't admit that they did it until they got caught.

They are sorry they got caught, but not sorry they stole the money.

They aren't trying to re-pay the money they stole.

On top of all that, they're also trying to portray themselves as some sort of Super Christians?

 

And people are rallying behind them??? :confused:

 

Ummm.......NO.

 

Just NO.

[*Michelle*]

It is not their friends' place to forgive them. Their friends were not the ones harmed. Their friends can choose to continue trusting these people, but I don't see how it would be their duty to do so.

[AlmiraGulch]

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

 

In the same situation I wouldn't bring it up myself, particularly since Sue and Steve aren't really your friends. No sense causing tension where there doesn't need to be any, and your friends likely aren't going to change their minds so all you'd be doing is instigating a pointless confrontation.

 

On the other hand, if it were to come up and I couldn't easily pass that ubiquitous dip, I would absolutely voice my opinion. The thing is, though, it's touchy when it has to do with religion, because people are quite likely to feel as if you're insulting their religion, and you "can't" go there in this country. So, if you do decide to say something, I'd be careful to make sure it's about Sue and Steve and they're criminals and neither sorry nor repentant for what they did, without bringing their religion into it. That is, unless you don't really value this couple's friendship.

 

Just my two cents.

 

And for what it's worth, I completely understand where you're coming from. My ex-husband actually committed a crime similar to Sue and Steve (well, two, really, but he was only prosecuted once), and claimed he was a sinner and sorry and carried around his little prayer book and suddenly never missed mass. Blah blah blah. He didn't care about any of that until he actually was successfully prosecuted the second time it happened. I was and remain completely unimpressed.

[gardenmom5]

Steve and Sue admitted to it. Steve said this was an awakening for him to come to Christ (even though they were super religious before this, but whatever).

uh, huh. :toetap05: maybe now they'll actually start to live their convictions. but then again, maybe just more words. until the next time they're caught. they'd have more credibility if they made an effort to pay back the money.

All our good friends are "standing by them." They say that as Christians, they feel that they should forgive his sin and accept his apologies.

unless those "friends" were the ones whose money was embezzeled (and who are out that money and whose business probably suffered for it, or lost their job because of it), what exactly are they "forgiving"? being "embarassed" that they were suckered by these people into being their friends? they are not the ones who were "sinned" against - that was the business owners, and their employees and customers. their 'forgivenss' means squat.

they also don't understand there is a big difference between forgiveness, repentance, restitution and absolution.

 

I am appalled that my Christian friends, who are always going on about "by their fruits shall ye know them" are not calling them out on any of this. (I'm not Christian, fwiw.)

 

I am christian - and they are being good expamples of "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me:" their fruits are bitter - if they were sweet - they'd be building up that business, not stealing from it. I'd find it interesting to see how your "christian" friends reconcile that.

 

I guess the point of this post is, would you be honest with your friends about how you feel about Steve and Sue? So far when it has come up, I've passed the bean dip. Honesty is extremely important to me, so I hate keeping my feelings from them.

 

I know I'll have to see this couple at certain events we're all signed up for, so if I just kept my feelings hidden, it'd be a lot easier to avoid them without anyone noticing. How would you deal with this situation? I feel like I am being a hypocrite by caving to social pressure to not even express myself in the confidence of my friends for fear of offending them. No matter how nicely I put it, the implication would be that they too are doing wrong by standing by them. Maybe I'm just being too judgmental. I don't know.

I don't know if I'd stand-by them - it sounds like they have no remorse at all and are quite arrogant about it. standing by is I'll visit you in jail and not end my friendship. I will support you while you make the changes in your life to return to being people of honor. But there is the unequivocal expectation of change.

 

what your other friends are doing is NOT standing by, it is enabling. Makes me really wonder just how embarassed they are at having been snookered by them into thinking they were "fine upstanding people", when in reality they're thieves. sounds like they are protecting their own ego. I know there are some who seem to think they can say "I believe" and it doesn't matter what they actually do. um, yes it does.

[Dana]

Personally, I'd probably end up burning bridges and expressing my opinion clearly...likely both about Steve and Sue, but also about the people claiming to be Christian.

 

If you're okay with setting things aflame, go for it.

I'm still working on learning to choose my battles.

I don't think I'd be comfortable staying in a group with people like that...but YMMV ... And my way sure isn't the best way always :)

[RoughCollie]

Look on the bright side. When these people go to prison, their Christian friends can feel holy by visiting them often. That's where the rubber meets the road. Right now, the friends' chatter is easy, a socially acceptable way to handle being around the putative criminals. It's a whole lot harder to go through the process of visiting someone in prison. Betcha no one does it more than once. And they'll have a good Christian reason, in their view, to excuse their inaction.

 

Right now, it seems like the alleged criminals' pals are refusing to acknowledge that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

 

Also, to be fair, it is really hard for people to reconcile the friends they thought they knew with information that those friends are criminals. Some of the nicest people I've met have committed horrible crimes. I have to remind myself continually that they are not what they seem to be. It is a strange and confusing thing to have to reconcile, even for those who are accustomed to it.

[Excelsior! Academy]

There is a difference between forgiveness and consequences. Forgiveness can happen, but rebuilding of trust takes a long time. As Ronald Regan said, "Trust but verify."

 

It would take me a really long time to believe there was a change of heart. Would I loan them money? No way! Would I allow them to slowly rebuild trust. Probably. It would be on my terms until I felt it was long enough. You don't like the terms? Bummer. Actions have consequences.

[Dandelion]

I don't think you're being too judgmental at all. I would be disgusted by their behavior too.

 

In terms of what (if anything) to say, that depends. Will saying something possibly mean that you could end up souring things for your family in your HS group? I've BTDT.

 

I wouldn't bring the issue up, but I would formulate a tactful yet honest response to use whenever it comes up again. Personally, I don't think I could pretend that it didn't bother me. By doing so, I would feel like I was enabling Steve and Sue too. Maybe something along the lines of: "I understand that you're ok with how Steve and Sue are handling this situation, but I'm concerned that they don't seem interested in making restitution. To me, true repentance includes making restitution for your crimes".

 

You should be able to honestly state your position on the matter without offending your friends. If it becomes a point of contention and turns into an argument, I would just say "let's agree to disagree" and let it go. I don't think this issue needs to ruin your friendships with others in the group.

[Guest inoubliable]

I wouldn't bring it up, but if someone asked me why I wasn't being more supportive or whatever I'd be quite honest in what I thought about the entire thing.

[tex-bex]

Yeah, that KK.

 

Sounds like awkward moments to come, though. I'd probably have to "go freshen up" every time I came face to face with them at events.

[QueenCat]

I hope that if any of my loved ones ever commit a crime, I will still feel welcome at church. And I hope they will feel welcome there too. We have a few people at our church who committed crimes. One far more serious than what the OP mentioned. He's repentant, and has served his time. If someone, like the people at your church, weren't repentant, it might be harder, but ultimately, love is what is expected at church, as it was Christ would have shown. Does it mean I always do well with that? No. There is one repeat offender that makes me so mad it isn't even funny. I avoid him at all costs but still do well with his children and wife. I'm working on making my fake smile a real one but don't know if that will ever happen. Trust him though, not likely.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'm with everybody. I'd be most concerned about what I was teaching my own children about major issues like repentance, forgiveness, making amends, justice, etc., so I'd probably have to speak my truth and withdraw from the group.

[bettyandbob]

I would have a problem being around these people. I would wonder about the church too. I was in Sunday school weeks ago and we were asked to discuss in small groups what is the biggest change in the last decade that has really hurt society. I told my group I thought it was lying. More people are doing it. People do not seem remorseful about doing it. They only seem sorry to be caught . And look at the damage they do. Embezzlement? No intention to pay it back? That behavior hurts everyone.

When someone lies in order to steal money you hurt the owners of the business who trust you, you hurt customers because they will be charged more, you hurt the community because the owners will not feel able to contribute to local charities and activities. Lying has long term damaging effects that ripple multiple directions.

 

These people are hiding behind a shield professing to be Christian. They may never know what it is like to be Christian. I do think they should be welcome to attend church. I, personally, would steer clear.

[bolt.]

I don't usually take it upon myself to "judge another man's servant" -- so I wouldn't be suffering the same sort of strong feelings that you are. On the other hand, I don't tend to trust or honour thieves in their natural state... I'd probably tend to not worry about it, unless it came up directly. In which case I'd say something like, "I'm pleased to hear that they know their sin. I hope their repentance deepens and bears fruit -- repentance and making amends are good for both the heart and the situation." (But I'd say it like I was benignly looking forward to seeing it happen, not like I was accusing them of being unrepentant.)

 

On the other hand, if I was having some big feelings about the facts 1. That some people are thieves, 2. That some people are wishy-washy when their friends sin and say penitent words about it, and 3. You happen to be acquainted with some of each of those sorts of people these days -- if my feelings were big, I'd limit my contact and conversation until I settled down.

[claluck]

We have a similar situation here. There is a couple where the wife is being prosecuted for embezzeling money from a non-profit organization. Only once, and for a large sum. For something dumb as well lol. Anyways I haven't talked to her about it. I believe she is honestly ashamed as she doesn't walk around talking about it and I have never seen her mention anything really publicly about it. She quietly talks about it when the topic comes up. She became active in church following the charges being filed against her. It certainly sounds different than what you are facing.

 

But on your end I try to remember what Christ said, Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. I know it is hard especially when we don't see remorse. And I struggle to forgive people who have seriously offended me or others I care about. But I try and remember constantly it isn't my place. I wouldn't sympathize with them or anything either. I would just try to avoid the topic. I do use it as opportunity to educate my children about character though and consequences to actions. Whether those consequences are here and now or we will wait for them.

 

Christina

[Unicorn.]

I agree w/ everybody, especially Cat and KK. One thing that is really, really, bothering me, is the comments about those who aren't standing by them. Like they, the thieves, are better Christians or whatever, than those who aren't supporting them. WOW! How narcissistic can you be. These people are scum and don't deserve anyone's support. I would ignore, and delete them from my life if possible. And if the church is rallying behind them, bye-bye church.

[Skadi]

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm giving it a lot of thought and will be back later to comment more. I just want to quickly pop in to clarify that this group is not affiliated with a church. My Christian friends do not attend the same church as this couple, and my DH and I are atheists. It's just an informal social group, plus a book club.

 

Because Steve and Sue were so very religious, when this came out there were several people in the community who honed in on that. Some non-Christians pointed out the discrepency. Some Christians who were friends with them distanced themselves from them. And to be honest, I think maybe my friends got caught up in this aspect of, "People are targetting them because they are professing Christians who sinned. But we all sin, so we aren't going to judge them." Sigh.

[gardenmom5]

Yeah, that KK.

 

Sounds like awkward moments to come, though. I'd probably have to "go freshen up" every time I came face to face with them at events.

 

even if that "freshening up" was only some "fresh air" in a different part of the room.

[Ellie]

There's a couple we know in our HS social group. We aren't really friends...I mean, we have never spent time together alone. But they're good friends with our good friends, and we often see them at social gatherings. I'll call them Steve and Sue.

 

A little while ago, it was discovered by the local business Steve worked for that he had been embezzling from them for years. Thousands and thousands of dollars--we don't have an exact number (the business is only pursuing the cases that are most concrete so they can be sure to get a conviction). Steve and Sue admitted to it. Steve said this was an awakening for him to come to Christ (even though they were super religious before this, but whatever).

 

All our good friends are "standing by them." They say that as Christians, they feel that they should forgive his sin and accept his apologies.

 

As far as I am concerned, if you do not "repent" until you get caught, then you're not really sorry. You're just sorry you got caught. I have kept my opinion to myself, but Sue has said on FaceBook that "you can't get blood from a turnip" in response to someone asking if she is concerned about their family being required to pay restitution when it goes to court. So even though they admit their guilt (they schemed together), they aren't in the least bit interested in paying back what they owe. Steve has also said on FB that he appreciates the Christians who are standing by him, and he prays for those who are not walking with him in Christ, yadda yadda. In other words, he's calling any Christian who doesn't stand with him un-Christ-like. If you ask me, their attitude has not been what I would call "repentant."

 

Honestly, I am fed up. I think these self-righteous hypocrites are throwing a never-ending pity party when they should be humble and gracious. Saying "I'm sorry" without deeds (e.g. paying the business back in small increments) is worthless. I am appalled that my Christian friends, who are always going on about "by their fruits shall ye know them" are not calling them out on any of this. (I'm not Christian, fwiw.)

 

I know it's different, but I can't help but think that this kind of mentality, where you ignore past and present behavior because they are friends and "good people," is the same M.O. for people who stand by "pillars of the community" who are discovered to be pedophiles. I can't help but feel that my friends are giving this couple a free pass. Steve and Sue are thieves. They've been thieves for years. They are still being judgmental and are not interested in repaying the victims of their crimes. They are acting like they are being "persecuted" and that they are martyrs. Bleh.

 

I guess the point of this post is, would you be honest with your friends about how you feel about Steve and Sue? So far when it has come up, I've passed the bean dip. Honesty is extremely important to me, so I hate keeping my feelings from them.

 

I know I'll have to see this couple at certain events we're all signed up for, so if I just kept my feelings hidden, it'd be a lot easier to avoid them without anyone noticing. How would you deal with this situation? I feel like I am being a hypocrite by caving to social pressure to not even express myself in the confidence of my friends for fear of offending them. No matter how nicely I put it, the implication would be that they too are doing wrong by standing by them. Maybe I'm just being too judgmental. I don't know.

 

 

Well, I agree with those who have said that the people who need to forgive are the ones that Steve and Sue sinned against.

 

I don't know for sure how I would behave if someone I knew personally had committed a criminal act. All of us are sinners, so of course we should all be forgiving in that sense. But a criminal act, one for which the perpetrator seems completely unrepentant...that's different. It wouldn't be my job to make sure he comes to his senses, or makes reparation, but yeah, I'm thinking there would come a time when I'd have to say something if I were pushed. I would probably not talk about it otherwise, because that would seem like gossiping, KWIM? And I would probably not express my opinion about their behavior...unless I were pushed. It isn't dishonest to not express an opinion about someone's behavior. I guess I just wouldn't pursue any sort of relationship with them, other than smiling weakly when we passed each other at a social event.

[kiwik]

It would annoy me too. I don't know who it was who said "justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done", it is much the same with repentance. If he was truly sorry he would be trying to make amends in some way. If he was imprisoned for it then it is reasonable to give him another chance though.

 

[LucyStoner]

Hypocrites are everywhere. I wouldn't choose to be friends with them or the people falling for the super religious act. But I wouldn't share my low opinion unless directly asked either. Not worth my time/energy.

 

I have friends who were previously incarcerated due to working with a post prison group but they are not running any shams about becoming Christians (when they already were while carrying out an ongoing crime, some of them are religious but it's not for show). Most are very frank about what they did. It's in the past. I've never had a friend who committed a crime while we were friends so no idea if I would or would not continue to be their friend. If it were an ongoing deception that they only stopped when caught? Likely not. I have a grandmother who committed multiple serious crimes (she was a career criminal with the prison history to show for it (embezzlement, theft, fraud, kidnapping/shady adoptions) and I have no contact. Partly because she was also a violent abuser of my mother but also I think that most people who choose to make a living like that are just dangerous and toxic. She too claims to be an uber Christian but I don't see any real repentance from her. It's all hot air. She denies abusing her children despite her abuse having rendered my mother disabled. Some people just don't have a connection to reality. It sound like this couple has done some serious cognitive gymnastics to rationalize themselves. Bully for them. But you needn't be dragged into it. You are right to steer clear.

[RemsMom]

I got a letter from an acquaintance one Christmas. They were really upset because their son was in prison and right after he had arrived in prison he had become a Christian and there were so many people who were not accepting of his conversion and that he was now a changed man (he was 26)..........

 

His crime.......are you ready????......attempting to set up a meeting for sex with a 12 year old girl.

 

I never got another letter from them again and if I did I would toss it in the trash, unread.

 

I agree that someone that is truly sorry will attempt to make amends, not hide behind "I'm Christian".

[JuanitaL]

I got a letter from an acquaintance one Christmas. They were really upset because their son was in prison and right after he had arrived in prison he had become a Christian and there were so many people who were not accepting of his conversion and that he was now a changed man (he was 26)..........

 

His crime.......are you ready????......attempting to set up a meeting for sex with a 12 year old girl.

 

I never got another letter from them again and if I did I would toss it in the trash, unread.

 

I agree that someone that is truly sorry will attempt to make amends, not hide behind "I'm Christian".

What were they expecting? (I'm not sure you would know, I'm just curious about what/why people think the way they do sometimes.) I guess in that situation I would think - "well, good for him. Maybe his conversion will help him accept his consequences, he'll be a model inmate for the entire sentence, he'll be a changed man for the good of society in 15-20 years when he gets released, and he'll be willing to do whatever it takes upon release to make sure he never does something like this again - even up to chemical castration. Because he's a changed man."

[Joanne]

I've read this thread several times.

 

Back at the last church I attended regularly, there was a family whose Dad/Husband went to jail for mortgage fraud. He admitted that he was seduced by the easy money, thought/hoped he could get away with it. He agreed to be part of a sermon series.

 

He plead guitly, never once (that I know of) tried to escape consequences and he spoke often of his regret personally and the impact on his family. His family "stood by him" in that they expressed love, care, concern and did not separate or divorce him. The wife participated in the role in the sermon series.

 

There was, IMO, no hypocrisy and I could feel the sad respect of the congregation for this family. It was appropriate.

 

That is saying a lot, because I am a cynic in terms of Christians and Christianity.

 

It seems a stark contrast to the OP, which reeks.

[jelbe5]

Forgiveness is commanded by Christ . . . but I believe you can forgive and still impose consequences.

 

I think they should both be in prison. I don't have a lot of tolerance for thieves and liars. They are both.

 

And they are not very bright. I would not be engaging in any conversations on Facebook at all.

 

Hopefully they will have a judge who is compassionate but also believes in enforcing the law and imposing a sentance that fits the crime. This couple sounds narcissistic and antisocial; they are sorry they got caught.

 

And if I was a judge and saw the FB posts and the "holier than thou" attitude I would be even more harsh with my punishment.

[dirty ethel rackham]

If people accuse you of not forgiving ... "It's not up to me to forgive."

If someone brings up that they are Christian and somehow deserving of better treatment ... "I am not concerned about the religion they profess, but the character they demonstrate."

[RemsMom]

What were they expecting? (I'm not sure you would know, I'm just curious about what/why people think the way they do sometimes.) I guess in that situation I would think - "well, good for him. Maybe his conversion will help him accept his consequences, he'll be a model inmate for the entire sentence, he'll be a changed man for the good of society in 15-20 years when he gets released, and he'll be willing to do whatever it takes upon release to make sure he never does something like this again - even up to chemical castration. Because he's a changed man."

 

 

 

They seemed to expect everyone to forgive and forget. I guess they didn't understand why people would want to distance themselves. From the letter, I got the impression that the parents didn't understand why others were so horrified at what their son had attempted to do.

[Parrothead]

Sounds to me that ol' Steve is playing that Christian card for all it is worth.

[PrairieSong]

If the tables were turned and someone had stolen from them, what would they want the thief to do? Pay them back or not? "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

[Brilliant]

...

And they are not very bright. I would not be engaging in any conversations on Facebook at all.

 

Hopefully they will have a judge who is compassionate but also believes in enforcing the law and imposing a sentance that fits the crime. This couple sounds narcissistic and antisocial; they are sorry they got caught.

 

And if I was a judge and saw the FB posts and the "holier than thou" attitude I would be even more harsh with my punishment.

 

 

This. I would probably send printouts of FB comments to the prosecutor in the case. I have reported evidence to a prosecutor before, and I know he followed up on it.