Interesting "New Republic" Article on the Topic of Waiting to Start a Family

[Crimson Wife]

In light of the other thread, I thought this article from The New Republic was very interesting. "How Older Parenthood Will Upend American Society".

[Roadrunner]

Women have always been having kids in their forties since birth control is a relatively recent phenomena. Is there a medical difference if you are having your first after 35 or your fifth child at the late age on the outcome of the pregnancy?

[Elinor Everywhere]

Interesting article. I'm an "older mother", because I had my dd at 34. I didn't choose to wait that long - I was married at 27 and we started trying to have a baby when I was 28. I wasn't able to conceive until I was 33, and I've had exactly one pregnancy (no miscarriages thank goodness, but I had TWO in-vitro procedures and I STILL couldn't get pregnant a second time).

 

Can't help that I married late - I just didn't meet Mr. Right until I was 26. Can't help that I couldn't get pregnant until 33. But I do think about my age and how old we'll be when my kids grow up. The whole thing saddens me, but the most is that I won't be around for much of my grandkids' lives.

 

So that I'm not totally depressed after reading the article, can I just cling to the one line about kids born to older parents being better adjusted and doing better in school? Gotta throw me a bone here. :p

[wonderchica]

That's the thing that gets me about these conversations. A lot of people aren't purposely waiting- they may not meet their spouse right out of high school. They may meet when older, or may be unable to have children until older. I think these large numbers of people waiting until they have a high powered career/lots of money is a bit of a myth from TV and movies, honestly. I just don't see it much in day to day life.

[Elinor Everywhere]

That's the thing that gets me about these conversations. A lot of people aren't purposely waiting- they may not meet their spouse right out of high school. They may meet when older, or may be unable to have children until older. I think these large numbers of people waiting until they have a high powered career/lots of money is a bit of a myth from TV and movies, honestly. I just don't see it much in day to day life.

 

This is what I've seen in my life, too. I have 6-7 friends who had their kids late in life and NONE planned it that way on purpose. Life happens. All of these friends either didn't meet their husbands until later or had fertility issues BECAUSE they didn't meet their spouse until later. None were high-flying career types who couldn't be bothered to have kids until they "made it".

 

Although I do know that happens. I just think it's not the overwhelming majority.

[Crimson Wife]

Women have always been having kids in their forties since birth control is a relatively recent phenomena. Is there a medical difference if you are having your first after 35 or your fifth child at the late age on the outcome of the pregnancy?

 

Yes, because in the past women who were still having kids in their late 30's and 40's were getting pregnant naturally without any help from physicians. This made them the "cream of the crop" from a reproductive fitness standpoint. Today with all the high-tech fertility treatments, it isn't only the very healthiest middle-aged individuals who are able to conceive and bear a child.

[Crimson Wife]

 

This is what I've seen in my life, too. I have 6-7 friends who had their kids late in life and NONE planned it that way on purpose. Life happens. All of these friends either didn't meet their husbands until later or had fertility issues BECAUSE they didn't meet their spouse until later. None were high-flying career types who couldn't be bothered to have kids until they "made it".

 

Although I do know that happens. I just think it's not the overwhelming majority.

 

There is a very real stigma these days about getting married in one's early-to-mid 20's. When I got engaged as a 21 y.o. college junior, the reaction was such that you'd think I had announced I was intending to rob a bank or something.

 

While I don't want to see a return to the days where girls married in their mid-teens, I think the pendulum has swung way too far in favor of putting off marriage & childbearing. Instead of treating one's 20's as an extended adolescence, as a society we should be encouraging 20somethings to start acting like adults.

[wonderchica]

I think the point in the article that perception are regional is a very good one. I'm from the rural South. I saw ZERO stigma when my high school friends were getting married/having babies at 19-22. In fact, that's when my relatives started pressuring me to get married and have babies. Not after I finished college, but right then because I was getting "old".

[regentrude]

While I don't want to see a return to the days where girls married in their mid-teens, I think the pendulum has swung way too far in favor of putting off marriage & childbearing. Instead of treating one's 20's as an extended adolescence, as a society we should be encouraging 20somethings to start acting like adults.

 

How would it be acting like adults if people had children while they still have not finished their own education and are not in a position to support a family?

One major factor behind the later maternal age is the larger number of women embarking on a college and postgraduate education. They are not done at age 21. They may finish grad school when they are 26 or 27 - how are they not acting like adults when they choose not to try to juggle a 60+ hour work week with having a baby? I do not see working hard on one's education as "extended adolescence".

 

In my own circle of friends, I was the first to have children shortly before I turned 29. The "career" that kept my friends from starting a family earlier was a sequence of one-or two-year postdoctoral positions in varying countries, with no perspective of a real job, and typically a long distance relationship or marriage. A few thousand miles between husband and wife is not an ideal situation for having children.

[jar7709]

How would it be acting like adults if people had children while they still have not finished their own education and are not in a position to support a family?

One major factor behind the later maternal age is the larger number of women embarking on a college and postgraduate education. They are not done at age 21. They may finish grad school when they are 26 or 27 - how are they not acting like adults when they choose not to try to juggle a 60+ hour work week with having a baby? I do not see working hard on one's education as "extended adolescence".

 

In my own circle of friends, I was the first to have children shortly before I turned 29. The "career" that kept my friends from starting a family earlier was a sequence of one-or two-year postdoctoral positions in varying countries, with no perspective of a real job, and typically a long distance relationship or marriage. A few thousand miles between husband and wife is not an ideal situation for having children.

 

Me, too. In my case I married slightly younger (age 23) but DH and I wanted to finish graduate school and have a few years as a married couple before we introduced the complexity that kids bring. I was 28 when DS came along. I thought that was pretty responsible of us. I was not waiting for a high-powered career, we were waiting to allow DH and I to have experience as a couple so that our family could be the strongest it could be. We were also the first in my circle of friends--other girlfriends in their mid-20s were doing things like joining the peace corps or going to medical school, and it takes a while to find "the one" when the men around you are doing similar things. None of those life choices seem like extended adolescence to me. All that said I always thought that if I was going to have kids, I wanted to start before age 30. I am lucky and fortunate it has, so far anyway, worked out the way I wanted. Knock wood.

[Crimson Wife]

Only a tiny fraction of 20somethings are pursuing PhD's and then a series of post-doc's. Sure, if one chooses that path, it will necessarily mean delaying childbearing (though it doesn't have to mean delaying serious courtship & marriage). But that situation is very much the minority.

 

Most of the women I know who are struggling with fertility issues now in their mid-30's could absolutely have chosen to settle down in their 20's. Most were finished with their education by 25 or 26. They could've stopped the partying earlier but chose not to.

[Roadrunner]

Most of my friends needed two paychecks to survive in their mid20s and very few of them could have afforded to pay $900 for a childcare (going rate for one kid around here). I would have loved to have kids earlier (I was done with grad school at 23), but because of financial reasons had to wait until 29 to have a child.

[nono]

They could've stopped the partying earlier but chose not to.

 

I want to meet your friends! :cheers2: Mine were all the school/career and little-dating-at-all types.

 

 

But, I hear ya on the lack of clarity of what one wants and then trying to turn back time. I personally never was interested in birthing children, so I have no regrets about choosing the hight-powered career track. But, yes, with all choices come tradeoffs.

[Elinor Everywhere]

 

There is a very real stigma these days about getting married in one's early-to-mid 20's. When I got engaged as a 21 y.o. college junior, the reaction was such that you'd think I had announced I was intending to rob a bank or something.

 

While I don't want to see a return to the days where girls married in their mid-teens, I think the pendulum has swung way too far in favor of putting off marriage & childbearing. Instead of treating one's 20's as an extended adolescence, as a society we should be encouraging 20somethings to start acting like adults.

 

Umm, if you quoted me to imply that my friends (or I) were not acting as adults in our 20s, you are mistaken. For my part, I was at university until 22, then moved across country to the west coast at 24, getting a crappy job and living on my own. I worked and became involved in my new community and met my dh at 26. I married at 27, but couldn't have kids until my dd was born when I was 34.

 

Not sure how that implies extended adolescence? Your condemnation of not having kids early (and presumably a lot of them) is exactly why people who are not financially challenged are feeling criticized in those other threads. I should have married my college or high school boyfriend, started popping out kids, even though we weren't a great match? I should have gone to college to get an MRS. degree?

 

As I stated before, my life played out the way the cards were dealt. Not necessarily what I would have chosen, but it's what I have, and I've made the best of my situation. As have my friends, both those who have kids young, and those who had them older. And those of my gay friends who haven't had them at all.

[elegantlion]

Ds was born when I was 30, dh was 37. I was 25 when we got married, had cancer at 26 and we weren't actively trying to conceive, nor where we trying to stop it. For us it was better to wait, for us we were much better parents with a few more years under our belt. Physically we were fortunate to have one, due to my side issues from my cancer tx. Dh and I both come from a line of people who live longer active lives. Our parents are both in the mid to late 70s in good health. Dh's grandmother beat breast cancer at 84 and is still doing well at 94. My grand mother lived to 94. Maybe we're just both a bunch of late bloomers.

[momtoamiracle]

I got married at 20 and started losing babies at age 23. Wasn't my fault I could not have a healthy pregnancy until age 39. I never took BC pills, never smoked, drank, took any drugs, I ate healthy food and lived a quiet life. No reason for my losses and infertility.

 

 

In some ways I wish I was younger when I had him, so I'd have more energy and my parents were younger, but I do feel I can give much more maturity to my son now. We're focusing on the positive since there is nothing we could do about it.

 

 

I really don't care when other people have their kids...

[Crimson Wife]

I'm talking 20something girls in general, not any specific individual. Most girls these days don't even have a college boyfriend with whom they could settle down because the "hook-up" culture predominates. And many continue to live a party lifestyle well past college graduation. I've witnessed so many women I know waste years chasing after "bad boys" and ignoring the less-exciting but better husband material nice guys. Eventually, most of them do grow up, but that growing up should be taking place closer to 20 than 30. As a society we've gone from "a woman is an old maid at 29" to "real life doesn't begin until you're 29". Where's the happy medium?

[TravelingChris]

I think at some time we will have to talk with our older dd. She is dating a man who is 7 years her senior. Currently she is a sophomore in college and she wants to go on to law school. If she does that and she marries him, she will be 24 at the earliest to have a child and he will be 31 or 32. She has a very strong reason to have kids earlier- she has a heridatary blood clotting disorder and that is much more likely to occur if she is in her thirties or older.

 

My father was 51 when I was born and I did have a cleft palate. He died when I was 13 and my mom died when I was 23. My dh also had older parents and we both wanted our children at younger ages. I had my last just before I turned 35. My mom had my sister, who turned out to be bipolar, when she was 44 and my dad was 53.

 

I think in England, specifically in London, there will be a problem with these children of older couples. When we were visiting Kew Gardens a few years ago, I noticed that others my age had babies and toddlers while I had older elementary and older teens.

[Audrey]

I'm talking 20something girls in general, not any specific individual. Most girls these days don't even have a college boyfriend with whom they could settle down because the "hook-up" culture predominates. And many continue to live a party lifestyle well past college graduation. I've witnessed so many women I know waste years chasing after "bad boys" and ignoring the less-exciting but better husband material nice guys. Eventually, most of them do grow up, but that growing up should be taking place closer to 20 than 30. As a society we've gone from "a woman is an old maid at 29" to "real life doesn't begin until you're 29". Where's the happy medium?

 

 

This is exactly why 20-somethings shouldn't marry. They're largely idiots chasing after the cream of the turd crops. I cringe when I hear that someone under 25 is getting married. So very, very few of them are capable of making good decisions on adult matters. I think people should wait until they're mature enough to be adults, not just do adult things, but actually BE adults in action and in thoughts.

[Kirch]

This is exactly why 20-somethings shouldn't marry. They're largely idiots chasing after the cream of the turd crops. I cringe when I hear that someone under 25 is getting married. So very, very few of them are capable of making good decisions on adult matters. I think people should wait until they're mature enough to be adults, not just do adult things, but actually BE adults in action and in thoughts.

 

I agree with part of this--that so many are incapable of making good decisions on adult matters. But I think that it's our culture that has created these incapable 20-somethings (the extended adolescence referred to earlier). Plenty of 20-somethings ARE capable--we've had plenty of marriage age threads here with example after example of people who married in their early 20's and were perfectly mature and capable of making those decisions. Obviously, many are not, but I think that's more of a by-product of a society that has long encouraged self-indulgence and entertainment over hard work and taking responsibility for one's life. Combine that with parents who are often either unable or unwilling to push older children out of the nest and you get 20-somethings who aren't ready to make those decisions. But if they had been given real responsibilities and higher expectations as teens, they would be ready for adult life and decisions by their early 20's.

 

Of course, this is speaking in generalities. There will always be some who aren't ready for adult responsibilities at 50 and others who can launch themselves at 15. But 50 years ago, kids graduating from high school were expected *and able* to function as adults. There's nothing inherently different about them now--it's just our expectations and assumptions that are different.

[Roadrunner]

I'm talking 20something girls in general, not any specific individual. Most girls these days don't even have a college boyfriend with whom they could settle down because the "hook-up" culture predominates. And many continue to live a party lifestyle well past college graduation. I've witnessed so many women I know waste years chasing after "bad boys" and ignoring the less-exciting but better husband material nice guys. Eventually, most of them do grow up, but that growing up should be taking place closer to 20 than 30. As a society we've gone from "a woman is an old maid at 29" to "real life doesn't begin until you're 29". Where's the happy medium?

 

In my experience it's the boys who don't want to grow up. Lots of my friends would have loved to marry early, but at 25 or even 30, guys won't even consider settling down. Too much fun to be had traveling or running around with friends. I can't tell you how many of my friends are exhausted searching for somebody serious who wants a family.

[kalanamak]

 

 

Most of the women I know who are struggling with fertility issues now in their mid-30's could absolutely have chosen to settle down in their 20's. Most were finished with their education by 25 or 26. They could've stopped the partying earlier but chose not to.

 

I didn't run with a party crowd. I found the delaying factor for my group were mature males who wanted to be daddies. They don't come a dime a dozen. It took me into my 40s to find one, and I finally found one outside my peers, my education level, and my socioeconomic group, and I basically "bought" him (in that I "keep" him, and he was down and out and ready to be kept). My peers who finally found a guy somewhere around 35 are are all divorced and raised the kid alone. And as I said, we weren't the party crowd. We were the educated, bookwormy crowd. It is all very sad to contemplate, but I think I got out of it the best, in that I have a hubby who really, really wants to be a dad, and has shown no sign of running off.

[KungFuPanda]

This is exactly why 20-somethings shouldn't marry. They're largely idiots chasing after the cream of the turd crops. I cringe when I hear that someone under 25 is getting married. So very, very few of them are capable of making good decisions on adult matters. I think people should wait until they're mature enough to be adults, not just do adult things, but actually BE adults in action and in thoughts.

 

Stand down. Not fair. I met my husband when I was 18 and we were both in the military. Married three years later when I was 21 and he was 24. We went to college together as 'old' non-traditional students. We had our first child when I was 25 and after 7 good years of couple time and 4 years of marriage. We had our second child when I was 28. The college years were lean, but we've been comfortable since DH finished grad school and began working for real money.

 

We just celebrated our 19th anniversary. The kids are 12 and almost 15. Our mothers are both healthy, active, and not yet retired (but soon). My teen/tween children have a real relationship with their great-grandmother. The kids have lost a few great-grandparents in their life, but they've yet to lose a grandparent. There is a less than 50 year age gap between my daughter and my mother. We didn't really choose people over things, we chose people and having things a bit later. So, we didn't buy the house before the kids were born, but they were young enough that they don't remember living anywhere else.

 

Add to all of this that we are raising a physically disabled child. It's harder than most people can imagine. I can't even get my brain around how physically taxing it would be on me to care for my son if I'd had him 15 years later. Right now, I don't 'feel' forty. I feel young and fit. I'd like to hope I feel this way in 15 years, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

 

Yes, I've learned a lot over the years, but even at 18 I was a fully functioning, self-supporting adult. Most idiots don't really outgrow their idiocy and it has more to do with WHO they are than HOW OLD they are.

[*Lulu*]

nm

[*Lulu*]

nm

[Audrey]

I agree with part of this--that so many are incapable of making good decisions on adult matters. But I think that it's our culture that has created these incapable 20-somethings (the extended adolescence referred to earlier). Plenty of 20-somethings ARE capable--we've had plenty of marriage age threads here with example after example of people who married in their early 20's and were perfectly mature and capable of making those decisions. Obviously, many are not, but I think that's more of a by-product of a society that has long encouraged self-indulgence and entertainment over hard work and taking responsibility for one's life. Combine that with parents who are often either unable or unwilling to push older children out of the nest and you get 20-somethings who aren't ready to make those decisions. But if they had been given real responsibilities and higher expectations as teens, they would be ready for adult life and decisions by their early 20's.

 

Of course, this is speaking in generalities. There will always be some who aren't ready for adult responsibilities at 50 and others who can launch themselves at 15. But 50 years ago, kids graduating from high school were expected *and able* to function as adults. There's nothing inherently different about them now--it's just our expectations and assumptions that are different.

 

:iagree:

[Audrey]

Stand down. Not fair. I met my husband when I was 18 and we were both in the military. Married three years later when I was 21 and he was 24. We went to college together as 'old' non-traditional students. We had our first child when I was 25 and after 7 good years of couple time and 4 years of marriage. We had our second child when I was 28. The college years were lean, but we've been comfortable since DH finished grad school and began working for real money.

 

We just celebrated our 19th anniversary. The kids are 12 and almost 15. Our mothers are both healthy, active, and not yet retired (but soon). My teen/tween children have a real relationship with their great-grandmother. The kids have lost a few great-grandparents in their life, but they've yet to lose a grandparent. There is a less than 50 year age gap between my daughter and my mother. We didn't really choose people over things, we chose people and having things a bit later. So, we didn't buy the house before the kids were born, but they were young enough that they don't remember living anywhere else.

 

Add to all of this that we are raising a physically disabled child. It's harder than most people can imagine. I can't even get my brain around how physically taxing it would be on me to care for my son if I'd had him 15 years later. Right now, I don't 'feel' forty. I feel young and fit. I'd like to hope I feel this way in 15 years, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

 

Yes, I've learned a lot over the years, but even at 18 I was a fully functioning, self-supporting adult. Most idiots don't really outgrow their idiocy and it has more to do with WHO they are than HOW OLD they are.

 

Nope. I stand by what I said. LARGELY, they are turd chasing idiots. So, you are an exception. That's great. Truly great. Thank goodness there are exceptions or we'd be even worse off as a society.

[KungFuPanda]

Nope. I stand by what I said. LARGELY, they are turd chasing idiots. So, you are an exception. That's great. Truly great. Thank goodness there are exceptions or we'd be even worse off as a society.

 

I DO get your point, but there are idiots at both ends of the spectrum. I understand wanting financial security, but gambling your fertile years for real estate, vehicles, and vacations doesn't seem very adult to me. There's a big difference between waiting to have children until you can care for them and refusing to have children until you can afford every last bell and whistle. I've known too many educated women, who SHOULD know better, seem genuinely surprised that they had trouble conceiving in their mid to late thirties.

 

I get that not everyone is fortunate enough to meet Mr. Right when they are young. That can't be helped. Choosing not to even try to have kids until you've been married for a decade is something else entirely.

[chiguirre]

The article brings up good points, but the reality is that unless job pressures change drastically, people will continue to have children later. If you want to pursue a professional career, it's almost impossible to have a child in your 20s. I guess people could shoot for their early 30s, but unfortunately that's no guarantee. I don't regret waiting, because our youngest is the neurotypical kid, while GW was born when I was only 30 (which is pretty young by current standards). If we'd had a severely asd kid in our mid 20s we would have tanked financially, those extra 5 years of savings pulled us through when we had to pay oop for therapy and I had to stay home.

 

In the end, although population decline is scary, we need to put it in the context of how quickly human population expanded in the 20th century. Those growth rates aren't sustainable and a drop in fertility is the natural response to lower childhood mortality rates. You can trace that revolution around the world as countries modernize. We'll eventually find a new equilibrium point, but there will be a lot of social discord in the meantime.

[Reya]

Yes, because in the past women who were still having kids in their late 30's and 40's were getting pregnant naturally without any help from physicians. This made them the "cream of the crop" from a reproductive fitness standpoint. Today with all the high-tech fertility treatments, it isn't only the very healthiest middle-aged individuals who are able to conceive and bear a child.

 

 

Um. WOW.

 

Your fertility status often has nothing to do with your overall health, and most fertility issues aren't associated with higher levels of disability in children. The #1 factor in de novo genetic disabilities is maternal age, period. Doesn't matter whether you've had 0 kids or 16.

 

In the past, disabled children were more likely to die, and early miscarriages weren't caught because people didn't even know they were pregnant.

[lewelma]

But I do think about my age and how old we'll be when my kids grow up. The whole thing saddens me, but the most is that I won't be around for much of my grandkids' lives.

 

I just went to my grandmother's funeral and I am 43. She had her first kid at 28, which was quite an old age back then. I had a wonderful relationship with her.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Reya]

Also, it was only with the industrial revolution that ordinary people were able to start families young. Before then, you had to wait for a relative to die and leave you something to live on. It was very typical for the medieval peasant woman to have her first child at 22-25 and her husband to be 25-28.

 

Right now, young adults are being infantilized, and that's the #1 cause of later first kids. My mother's generation's 18 was my generation's 20 and the current generation's 26. So many 20-somethings now live in an extended adolescence, paid for by student loans and the mistaken belief that "being in school" is worthwhile in and of itself.

[phathui5]

 

 

This is exactly why 20-somethings shouldn't marry. They're largely idiots chasing after the cream of the turd crops. I cringe when I hear that someone under 25 is getting married. So very, very few of them are capable of making good decisions on adult matters. I think people should wait until they're mature enough to be adults, not just do adult things, but actually BE adults in action and in thoughts.

 

 

Dh and I married when I was 18 and he was 22. We've been married for over a decade and have five children. He has a good career in industrial lighting; I'm finishing an apprenticeship to become a midwife. Twenty-somethings can BE adults.

[Reya]

This is exactly why 20-somethings shouldn't marry. They're largely idiots chasing after the cream of the turd crops. I cringe when I hear that someone under 25 is getting married. So very, very few of them are capable of making good decisions on adult matters. I think people should wait until they're mature enough to be adults, not just do adult things, but actually BE adults in action and in thoughts.

 

 

No. This is why 20-somethings should grow up and stop acting like a previous generation's 13-year-olds. The few people I knew in college who married straight out of it are ALL still married now, 11-12 years later. It's the ones who were children then that are still children now. Some of them are STILL bouncing in and out of school.

[Reya]

BTW, the thrust of this article misses some crucial points. There are a LOT of reasons kids are getting diagnosed now who weren't before. Some are good, and some are bad.

 

1) Kids are worse behaved and schools have increasingly limited abilities to discipline them. Our local school district can't even do timeouts without a behavior modification plan with an IEP!!!! The teachers still need to teach, so really, they are forced to push for drugging kids instead of disciplining them.

 

2) Academic pressure is WAY higher in the early grades. Kids who come into K knowing nothing are already behind, and K and 1st grade now have real curricula rather than being mainly for getting kids used to school. This means that a mere "late bloomer" or a kids who's a bit immature really sticks out like a sore thumb now, and they are "abnormal" and "problem children." The youngest kids in the grade are something like 4xs more likely to get diagnosed as ADHD as the oldest kids. Normal differences in young children are being pathologized.

 

3) Many disabilities that ARE real and would have once been written off as moral failings are now being identified and treated. These kids used to just struggle in school or drop out. Now, they are subject to interventions and therapies instead of being just called stupid, lazy, or bad.

 

Richer parents are also more likely to get a diagnosis for a kid who isn't keeping up. Richer parents are also more likely to have access to reproductive technologies.

[Reya]

Also, this article is full of lazy fearmongering. There is no link between Clomid and birth defects. NONE. It's been subject to tons of studies, and compared to background rates of birth defects, there is no greater risk once maternal weight is taken into account. ICSI also has no record of being prone to produce birth defects. Any differences in birth defect rates among women undergoing ART can be fully accounted for by age alone and by weight. That's it. There is no added danger for being an "unfit" parent. All the very old women undergoing IVF aren't even using their own eggs, so they have no more chance of birth defects than the 20-something from whom the eggs came!

 

This article also ignores the fact that many women plan on much smaller families and so put off finding a husband and childbearing until later with the assumption that they can wait until 35 and get their two kids...or even just one. Sometimes they are wrong, but there's more incentive to "settle down" if you want 6 kids than if you are planning on 2.

[Melissa in Australia]

 

 

Yes, I've learned a lot over the years, but even at 18 I was a fully functioning, self-supporting adult. Most idiots don't really outgrow their idiocy and it has more to do with WHO they are than HOW OLD they are.

 

:iagree:

I was married at 18, first child at 19. My DH was 32

[lavender's green]

Is it just me, or are the people who normally bleat "don't judge!" around here the biggest judgers?

 

Signed,

A 20-something who is NOT a turd-chasing idiot, thankyou very much.

[RamonaQ]

I think articles like this are helpful to raise awareness of the effect of advanced age/ fertility, and now possible links to advanced paternal age. In a culture that older celebrities are having children, advanced fertility can seem like "the norm". I think it is important to be very aware of fertility, and possible links to disabilities that advanced age can cause. (And I completely agree with Reya's analysis of other possible causes for the rise in diagnosis of disabilities).

 

While it is true that not everyone can choose to have children at an early age-- I myself was one in which I completed my Ph.D. when I was 29 and didn't meet my husband until that year-- I was very aware of wanting to ensure that I could have kids, and had them not at the "ideal" time in my career but at the earliest age I could. And, yes, even with this "planning" I was still considered AMA with my second child, born 1 month after I turned 35.

[FaithManor]

Wow, the judgmentalism in this thread is running at warp speed!

 

First of all, there is no obligation to have children. Given the sheer number of kids neglected and abused in our culture, I think we ought to absolutely CELEBRATE those individuals that put off child-rearing or choose NOT to have children because if they have them sooner than they are ready for them or have them because everyone else thinks they ought to be having kids, the potential for disaster is very real. I applaud anyone, not sure that baby having is for them, putting off parenthood. God bless them for doing so. And I'd like to point out that immaturity is not the ONLY reason to not have a child. You just can't paint this generation of young adults with such a wide brush.

 

Second, so many areas of this country have brutal COL and that's where the jobs are. My niece and nephew, 30 somethings, would love to have a child or two. The reality is that they cannot find jobs in their fields anywhere with a reasonable COL. Combined, they bring in decent money. But, when taxes are considered, two cars because they can't find jobs close together so they can share a vehicle, extremely high costs of car insurance though they have no tickets or accidents on their records, $1200.00 a month for their one bedroom apartment, a barely decent day care runs $1000.00 per month per child, healthcare premium contributions of $800.00 per month, not all utilities included in the rent, high withholding because of the lack of exemptions they can claim, two small student loan payments for their master's degrees which they had to have to remain in their fields and were not paid for by their employers and that won't be paid off until they are 35, paying off some dental work at $300.00 per month, and trying to put a small amount of money per month in their 401K's and a tiny bit in an emergency fund to pay for their high medical deductible, they end up with $550.00 left for the month for groceries (again, high COL so food isn't cheap) and personal care items. She makes more money than he does so they looked at the possibility of having a baby and having him be a stay-at-home dad, but not only would they lose the income, their medical insurance contribution would go up because his employer's policy is cheaper than hers. Despite the savings in childcare, on paper they end up $2000.00 in the hole every month and that scares the tar out of them. On top of that, their apartment is not in a school district that they would be willing to send their child to so by the time the little one was five, they'd need to move and apartments in the neighboring, better school districts, cost even more. Would he be able to go back to work after a five year break and still make as much as he was before or more? That's a big question for them too.

 

So, they feel they are being very responsible adults for NOT having children at the present time even though they'd like to. I find it very distressing that the assumption is if you don't have babies in your early to mid-20's, it's because you are selfish.

 

DD, a 20-something (as well as her fiance), are darn mature individuals and they'd like to have a family someday. However, it isn't easy to raise a family on paramedic pay and entry level computer programmer jobs which are generally contract pay without benefits. She HAS to work so they'll have medical insurance. Try being pregnant and lifting a 300 lb individual into the back of a rig. They'll be putting off child rearing for as long as it takes for him to get into a company with benefits and not doing freelance programming as a contractor for small businesses. Who knows how long that will take? Does this make them irresponsible, partying, losers?

 

I personally think someone has to have a better reason to have babies than just producing workers to pay into the system and as a general rule, that is the unspoken reason why people get their tails in a knot about declining birthrates.

 

My cousin's 25 year old son is just getting married. They won't be able to consider having children until their late 20's early 30's because he's paying off medical bills due to not having insurance when a medical crisis hit him.

 

The golden days are over. I don't think we give the young adults of this generation enough credit for navigating the economic waters in which they are swimming. We had it a LOT easier getting going. Wages were much higher commensurate to COL, and pay raises were pretty much a given. That is not the case for them. I see very, very few irresponsible 20 somethings in my area. What I see are young people working their tail ends off and hardly keeping their heads above water - three unrelated roomates in two bedroom apartments or sharing small, not all that well kept by the landlord, houses. They aren't thinking about starting families because that would bury them. I see 18 year olds that were kicked out on their 18th birthdays because mom and dad wouldn't let them live at home anymore, some hadn't even graduated from high school yet...living on someone else's couch while going to college or vo-tech and working for minimum wage is not a fine time to have babies and many of them are facing several years of that kind of living before they'll be off that friend's couch, through some sort of training or educations and a lot of study plus externship/apprenticeship for no or very, very low pay and then finding a job with benefits is almost unheard of, etc. Entry level cosmetology jobs in our area pay HALF what they paid ten years ago. Try working at Grondin's or BoRics 10 hrs. per day and only getting $3.00-4.00 at most per hair cut, no health, no guarantee of doing 20 or 30 cuts per day, etc.

 

If anything, these young people are MORE responsible than my generation was. We went around popping out kids whenever the sentimental notion took us and figured, somehow, someway, it would all work out. Well, it worked out because the economy was booming and fantastic. Finding work that paid a living wage and some medical wasn't that hard by comparison. We could afford to assume it would all work out. They can't!

 

I was 20 when dh and I got married and finished college before we had dd when I was 23. I didn't personally know partyers. Most of my friends all got married and had babies in their early 20's. But, their husbands, like mine, had gainful employment and no worries about continuing to have employment that could support a family.

 

The final rub is that they get out at 18 and their high school diploma turns out to be worth nothing. What are they supposed to do? Obviously, it's going to take some years to get enough education and training to have any kind of career path. We lament all.the.live.long.day. on these boards about rampant mathematical and literary literacy in this generation and then now people are going to lament them not having children! Seriously, it makes my brain twitch. The answer apparently being that unemployable, illiterate individuals should just jump into marriage and baby making and hang the consequences!

 

As for my boys, they are really pretty mature for their ages already. They show signs of being "marriageble" material by their early 20's. However, only one is going into a field in which he has any reasonable guarantee of being financially viable before 27 or 28 years of age. One will need a PH.D plus several years of field work (remote, somewhat dangerous places to boot) before he will be able to support a family thereby pushing him into his 30's before it would be responsible for him to consider being a father. The other will also need a PH.D. However, no field work and he should be able to work for a few dollars more than minimum wage per hour on his master's degree so maybe mid-20's and he'll be worth marrying for his provider capabilities.

 

I supposed I could demand that they all go into fields that produce high wages early on so they can produce future workers to pay into the system sooner. :glare: No, I think I'll give them the freedom to make the choices that are best for them since that is a privilege that was extended to my generation.

 

Let's see. We have a thread bashing people for having children they can't afford. Then we have a thread bashing people who aren't financially viable yet for not having children while they establish careers.

 

Faith - in a very foul mood and hoping to be over it some time next week.

[Carrie12345]

EVERYTHING is a trade off, whether through intentional choices or random circumstances.

 

Having my first child at 21 was not necessarily "ideal". Having my last at 33 wasn't, either. I'm not "judging" myself for admitting that there is a biological "ideal" age and maturity (whether connected to chronological age or not) for pregnancy.

 

I see former classmates struggle with infertility, trying to have 1 child. Clearly there's no way to know for sure if it would have been easier a decade ago, but it's an unknown they struggle with. I see single first time moms in their 30s struggle, knowing they didn't want to go it alone, but also didn't want to risk waiting "too long".

 

And I do agree a lot has to do with treating (or accepting) young adults as children. Though my perspective may be colored by dh and I being the oldest siblings of several late 20s/early 30s partiers.

[Elinor Everywhere]

I'd like to point out that immaturity is not the ONLY reason to not have a child. You just can't paint this generation of young adults with such a wide brush.

 

Second, so many areas of this country have brutal COL and that's where the jobs are. My niece and nephew, 30 somethings, would love to have a child or two. The reality is that they cannot find jobs in their fields anywhere with a reasonable COL.

 

I find it very distressing that the assumption is if you don't have babies in your early to mid-20's, it's because you are selfish.

 

The golden days are over. I don't think we give the young adults of this generation enough credit for navigating the economic waters in which they are swimming.

 

The final rub is that they get out at 18 and their high school diploma turns out to be worth nothing. What are they supposed to do? Obviously, it's going to take some years to get enough education and training to have any kind of career path. We lament all.the.live.long.day. on these boards about rampant mathematical and literary literacy in this generation and then now people are going to lament them not having children!

 

Let's see. We have a thread bashing people for having children they can't afford. Then we have a thread bashing people who aren't financially viable yet for not having children while they establish careers..

 

Faith, I love your post, especially the parts quoted above.

[regentrude]

I DO get your point, but there are idiots at both ends of the spectrum. I understand wanting financial security, but gambling your fertile years for real estate, vehicles, and vacations doesn't seem very adult to me. There's a big difference between waiting to have children until you can care for them and refusing to have children until you can afford every last bell and whistle. I've known too many educated women, who SHOULD know better, seem genuinely surprised that they had trouble conceiving in their mid to late thirties.

 

 

Among all those people I know who delayed parenthood, I have not met one who did so because they wanted real estate, vehicles and vacation. They all did so because they either did not have a partner, or because they were still in temporary jobs expecting relocation and long distance marriage.

Where do you find those women you describe?

[Jennifer3141]

Among all those people I know who delayed parenthood, I have not met one who did so because they wanted real estate, vehicles and vacation. They all did so because they either did not have a partner, or because they were still in temporary jobs expecting relocation and long distance marriage.

Where do you find those women you describe?

 

 

Not only that but calling it "real estate" as if it's some horrible yuppie affectation to want to own your own home instead of raising a baby in an apartment or your parents's basement is ludicrous. :bored:

 

Or calling traveling, "vacation." For some people, traveling the world is an essential part of learning about the world we live in. I'm never going to apologize for having a passport or for being able to locate Mexico on a map.

[Free]

I'm talking 20something girls in general, not any specific individual. Most girls these days don't even have a college boyfriend with whom they could settle down because the "hook-up" culture predominates. And many continue to live a party lifestyle well past college graduation. I've witnessed so many women I know waste years chasing after "bad boys" and ignoring the less-exciting but better husband material nice guys. Eventually, most of them do grow up, but that growing up should be taking place closer to 20 than 30. As a society we've gone from "a woman is an old maid at 29" to "real life doesn't begin until you're 29". Where's the happy medium?

 

And why is this a problem? Isn't it up to individuals how they want to live their lives? I thought America was "the land of the free", where individual liberty was considered the highest value?

 

You should be glad that you live in a country where women get to pursue what they value, rather than blindly follow societal mores. This is not so in many countries, including mine.

[Free]

First of all, there is no obligation to have children. Given the sheer number of kids neglected and abused in our culture, I think we ought to absolutely CELEBRATE those individuals that put off child-rearing or choose NOT to have children because if they have them sooner than they are ready for them or have them because everyone else thinks they ought to be having kids, the potential for disaster is very real. I applaud anyone, not sure that baby having is for them, putting off parenthood. God bless them for doing so.

 

I love, love, love your post and I really want to highlight this paragraph above. I come from a country of 1.2 Billion people of which 20-30 million are orphaned kids. I come from a country where a vast majority of women have very little say in how they live their lives.

 

And here I find a thread which, instead of celebrating the freedom that women in your country have fought hard for and won is instead calling for imposition of tribal values on women in the 21st century! I am sorry to say but I find the premise of this thread to be sick and twisted.

 

And what does "upend" even mean? That society is going to change drastically and we are supposed to be scared of that? Change is the only constant. We need to get used to it.

[Mom0012]

In my experience it's the boys who don't want to grow up. Lots of my friends would have loved to marry early, but at 25 or even 30, guys won't even consider settling down. Too much fun to be had traveling or running around with friends. I can't tell you how many of my friends are exhausted searching for somebody serious who wants a family.

 

Yes, I do wonder if this is a new trend. My mother recently mentioned that none of my brother's friends have married even though they've all had serious relationships. These friends are now close to 40. That kind of made me worry for my dd.

[I.Dup.]

Most of the women I know who are struggling with fertility issues now in their mid-30's could absolutely have chosen to settle down in their 20's. Most were finished with their education by 25 or 26. They could've stopped the partying earlier but chose not to.

 

This is true in my case as well. I stay in touch with many of my friends from high school and college (dozens, if not 100 or more) and not ONE has more than 2 children. 70% have no children at all and we are 30/31 now. I am seen as VERY STRANGE. That's why I find it odd when people have accused me in recent threads of feeling superior because I have so many, if anything I am the outcast. People are disgusted with the life we've chosen. I have had several people (Dh's own brother for one, who is now 29) tell us they think having so many children is just about the worst decision anyone can make, and they're putting it off as long as possible. Dh's brother is a total pot head who can't hold down a job, he stayed in college as long as possible with failing grades, etc. Most of my former friends are major partiers, they like going on vacation to the Bahamas or to Vegas, etc.

 

I don't think any of that is necessarily wrong (none of my business anyway) but I just certainly don't get the impression that most young people are slaving away at getting an education and pining for children.

[Audrey]

Is it just me, or are the people who normally bleat "don't judge!" around here the biggest judgers?

 

Signed,

A 20-something who is NOT a turd-chasing idiot, thankyou very much.

 

 

It's pretty disingenous to claim you don't judge. Everyone does it to some extent or another.

 

And, btw... congrats on being an exception to the anecdotal rule I stated upthread. I'm glad you didn't go getting your panties in a special little wad. Because you know... when someone says "largely" or "mostly" or other qualifiers like that in a statement, it does mean there are acknowledged exceptions to the statement's claim. I'm glad you know that, and didn't think I was talking about you, specifically, personally and most especially. ;)

[Audrey]

I DO get your point, but there are idiots at both ends of the spectrum. I understand wanting financial security, but gambling your fertile years for real estate, vehicles, and vacations doesn't seem very adult to me. There's a big difference between waiting to have children until you can care for them and refusing to have children until you can afford every last bell and whistle. I've known too many educated women, who SHOULD know better, seem genuinely surprised that they had trouble conceiving in their mid to late thirties.

 

I get that not everyone is fortunate enough to meet Mr. Right when they are young. That can't be helped. Choosing not to even try to have kids until you've been married for a decade is something else entirely.

 

 

Absolutely! There are those who wait and STILL can't manage to BE an adult. Some people can't ever seem to grow up and be an adult, and that's what I'm saying... please BE an adult before you have kids -- physically, emotionally, mentally, responsibly -- BE an ADULT!