Lay off the poor

[Susann]

I feel like that is a large part of the problem - more often than not both types are lumped together.....and really when you're watching someone in the grocery line, how do you know which type they are, really?

My frustration is not directed at the person w/food stamps in front of me at the grocery store. I do not know their stories. My frustration is directed at the people DH & I actually know and work with who are choosing lifestyles that they themselves cannot support. Also, I am not talking about a rough spot in the road. I am talking about a long term pattern of making choices that they themselves cannot support.

[k2bdeutmeyer]

:hurray:

I commented in the original thread about a couple that I work with that are in their late 20's and have had 3 unexpected pregnancies in the last 3 years between them. I don't mind the fs/health care etc. to help get through a rough spot! I do DEFINITELY mind the smart phones, fake tans, manicures, clothes and the going to an island off of Florida to get married-and, no, it's not because there was family there but because that's where she always wanted to get married. :cursing: Don't expect me to support your life style-which is MUCH nicer that mine-get off your butts and change jobs/pick up partitme work to support the lifestyle you've chosen to have!!!!!

 

Obviously, you know much more about this particular situation than I do, but generally speaking, how do you know if those nicer items were gifts or not? Or if the nice clothes came from Goodwill? My kids are often in "name brand" clothes, but 99% of the time they came from the consignment store (at $3 or less/pc or Goodwill). I have an iPhone - my kids are on Medicaid. What people don't know is that the iPhone is the original version and was a hand-me-down. I'm on my mom's plan and she pays the bill. But, to an outsider.....I'm a "poor" person with an iPhone I shouldn't have.

[jennynd]

I feel like that is a large part of the problem - more often than not both types are lumped together.....and really when you're watching someone in the grocery line, how do you know which type they are, really?

 

one is buying "food". the other is buying Vodaka :D

[k2bdeutmeyer]

My frustration is not directed at the person w/food stamps in front of me at the grocery store. I do not know their stories. My frustration is directed at the people DH & I actually know and work with who are choosing lifestyles that they themselves cannot support. Also, I am not talking about a rough spot in the road. I am talking about a long term pattern of making choices that they themselves cannot support.

 

Oh, I understand that....I was speaking more generally with regard to the recent threads on this topic.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

I see this comment a lot, but based on the pie graph someone linked to the other day, I have to call you on the corporate welfare part. Do you have any backup for this allegation, because it seems to me the taxpayer spend on "corporate welfare" is a tiny fraction of the spending on social subsidies (not including social security and medicare). Besides which, said "corporate welfare" is usually motivated by the intention of saving or growing jobs, etc. for those who would otherwise be low-income.

 

 

Why yes, I do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_welfare

The Cato Institute (link to article within the wiki) estimates direct corporate subsidies to be $100 billion in 2012. This does not include indirect subsidies Wal Mart and other corporations receive by having the income of their work force supplemented by food stamps and medicaid. It also does not include benefits received via trade barriers and other indirect subsidies, or direct funding via defense spending.

 

Food stamps cost roughly $80 billion in 2012.

[mommymilkies]

I feel the need to reiterate my first comment.

 

And how about a thread of holiday cheer for those of us who aren't hating on the poor? I just took my kids shopping for books and coloring books for the hospital kids' unit and we took doughnuts up to the fire station and told them thank you for the hard work. My kids handed out candy canes to workers and grumpy shoppers while out wasting time before a holiday performance. (Don't worry, they weren't bought on food stamps.) My grocery budget is almost non-existent right now, but I am more than happy to give back where I can. I'm so sick of hearing all the grumpiness on here. Sure, I don't have to read it, but then I'll miss out on the posters on here who make me happy and reaffirm what the season is all about. Anyone want to join me? Even if you can't give back right now, maybe a thread of feel good stuff for the season?

[Word Nerd]

Don't lay off the poor! They need the work.

 

(Sorry. Leaving now. I think that every time I see the thread title and couldn't resist posting it.)

[Susann]

Obviously, you know much more about this particular situation than I do, but generally speaking, how do you know if those nicer items were gifts or not? Or if the nice clothes came from Goodwill? My kids are often in "name brand" clothes, but 99% of the time they came from the consignment store (at $3 or less/pc or Goodwill). I have an iPhone - my kids are on Medicaid. What people don't know is that the iPhone is the original version and was a hand-me-down. I'm on my mom's plan and she pays the bill. But, to an outsider.....I'm a "poor" person with an iPhone I shouldn't have.

 

I know because they are the ones talking about their shopping habits! And this particular couple is not an isolated situation. I cashier at the library. I have a patron, who lives across the street from the library, and consistently runs up fines on her and her children's cards. She always has to put down her Starbucks coffee and have me admire her new manicure from this cute shop around the corner as she hands me her state card to pay. Again, she lives across the street from the library.

[mommymilkies]

 

 

Obviously, you know much more about this particular situation than I do, but generally speaking, how do you know if those nicer items were gifts or not? Or if the nice clothes came from Goodwill? My kids are often in "name brand" clothes, but 99% of the time they came from the consignment store (at $3 or less/pc or Goodwill). I have an iPhone - my kids are on Medicaid. What people don't know is that the iPhone is the original version and was a hand-me-down. I'm on my mom's plan and she pays the bill. But, to an outsider.....I'm a "poor" person with an iPhone I shouldn't have.

 

 

Yup, we're below the poverty limit with a refurb ipad (wish I had an iPhone!). But we Scrimped and happens upon a small chunk of money for it and it's so necessary for my dyslexic and speech kids. But almost everything nice we have is from hand me downs and holiday gifts from generous family. I make most of our furniture and we got really lucky buying our house and car. We look better off than we are. I don't use food stamps, but I always feel judged when using our Medicaid card (which here in IL is available for most families and there are co-pays, etc like private insurance) because it would cost us 60-70% of our income for private insurance-not counting co-pays and deductibles. Never judge based on appearances.

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't have a problem with the poor in this country. I have a problem with a hugh percentage of our income going to the government. I am 100% confident that I could make better decisions with my money than the government ever could.

 

 

Did you see the thread that talked about the tiny percentage of our budget that goes toward food assistance? Again, the anger is misdirected. There are much bigger piles of money on government to worry about.

[k2bdeutmeyer]

I know because they are the ones talking about their shopping habits! And this particular couple is not an isolated situation. I cashier at the library. I have a patron, who lives across the street from the library, and consistently runs up fines on her and her children's cards. She always has to put down her Starbucks coffee and have me admire her new manicure from this cute shop around the corner as she hands me her state card to pay. Again, she lives across the street from the library.

 

 

Again, I was speaking generally. I'm not saying that these types of situations/people don't exist. Of course they do. Just like snobby "rich" people exist too. It's the (general) idea that these situations & types of people are lumped all together and it is often talked about in a way that all "poor" people fit that mold.

[I.Dup.]

Did you see the thread that talked about the tiny percentage of our budget that goes toward food assistance? Again, the anger is misdirected. There are much bigger piles of money on government to worry about.

 

 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/444862-question-about-where-our-tax-dollars-go/

[laundrycrisis]

My frustration is with programs that are intended to help them, but really don't.

[6packofun]

 

I don't disagree. I think it's ok to talk about it. But it feels like some people don't give any real thought to what they say about the matter.

 

Exactly. Sometimes it seems like envisioning scenarios where a poor person might own something nice (even if they can't afford all their groceries) is just too much work for people. A woman pulling her food stamp card out of a Coach purse might have been GIVEN the purse. In fact, we are struggling right now and *I* own a Coach purse because dh's grandmother died and left him all of her nice things! (It's older and I don't use it, but this is to make a point. lol)

 

Those who make a very low wage often get LARGE tax returns--we're one of those families--and sometimes after paying off bills they actually get to buy something that most other people have. But others look at things and judge that a poor person *should not own it*. That is very wrong to me and why, unless you're willing to get to know someone and their situation, it's usually best to butt out.

[k2bdeutmeyer]

 

Exactly. Sometimes it seems like envisioning scenarios where a poor person might own something nice (even if they can't afford all their groceries) is just too much work for people. A woman pulling her food stamp card out of a Coach purse might have been GIVEN the purse. In fact, we are struggling right now and *I* own a Coach purse because dh's grandmother died and left him all of her nice things! (It's older and I don't use it, but this is to make a point. lol)

 

Those who make a very low wage often get LARGE tax returns--we're one of those families--and sometimes after paying off bills they actually get to buy something that most other people have. But others look at things and judge that a poor person *should not own it*. That is very wrong to me and why, unless you're willing to get to know someone and their situation, it's usually best to butt out.

 

Exactly. This is what I'm trying to say.

[SKL]

 

Why yes, I do.

http://en.wikipedia....rporate_welfare

The Cato Institute (link to article within the wiki) estimates direct corporate subsidies to be $100 billion in 2012. This does not include indirect subsidies Wal Mart and other corporations receive by having the income of their work force supplemented by food stamps and medicaid. It also does not include benefits received via trade barriers and other indirect subsidies, or direct funding via defense spending.

 

Food stamps cost roughly $80 billion in 2012.

 

So now you're comparing corporate welfare to *just* food stamps, not all social welfare programs.

 

Also, it seems that different sources have different figures, probably because the definition of "corporate welfare" is subjective. I didn't think most people would have thought of agriculture subsidies as corporate welfare, but I could see why some would. (I'm not a fan of ag subsidies personally.)

 

Another question is whether the so-called "corporate welfare" is all in the form of grants versus loans that need to be repaid (with or without interest). And also, they often have strings attached, such as requirements to employ people who, as a group, can be difficult to employ. Generally there is no expectation that welfare recipients will repay their benefits or make any particular effort to improve the economy for others.

[Susann]

 

Exactly. Sometimes it seems like envisioning scenarios where a poor person might own something nice (even if they can't afford all their groceries) is just too much work for people. A woman pulling her food stamp card out of a Coach purse might have been GIVEN the purse. In fact, we are struggling right now and *I* own a Coach purse because dh's grandmother died and left him all of her nice things! (It's older and I don't use it, but this is to make a point. lol)

 

Those who make a very low wage often get LARGE tax returns--we're one of those families--and sometimes after paying off bills they actually get to buy something that most other people have. But others look at things and judge that a poor person *should not own it*. That is very wrong to me and why, unless you're willing to get to know someone and their situation, it's usually best to butt out.

 

In my case, I am speaking about people who are directly talking about their long term spending habits. I, also, am not speaking about an isolated situation but just happened to discuss the one that originally came to mind. I also do not like to be judged.

[mama2cntrykids]

I've seen growing animosity for the poor in America lately. It seems like the lie that if a person worked hard enough and long enough they would achieve the American dream is alive and well. I personally think that the poor are some of the hardest workers out there.

 

Not only hard working, but in my experience, more willing to give a helping hand (no matter how little they have). It's fine if you disagree with this, but it's *my* experince.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

So now you're comparing corporate welfare to *just* food stamps, not all social welfare programs.

 

Yes, which I quite clearly did in my other post.

 

Also, it seems that different sources have different figures, probably because the definition of "corporate welfare" is subjective. I didn't think most people would have thought of agriculture subsidies as corporate welfare, but I could see why some would. (I'm not a fan of ag subsidies personally.)

 

Ag subsidies are generally considered corporate welfare.

 

Another question is whether the so-called "corporate welfare" is all in the form of grants versus loans that need to be repaid (with or without interest). And also, they often have strings attached, such as requirements to employ people who, as a group, can be difficult to employ. Generally there is no expectation that welfare recipients will repay their benefits or make any particular effort to improve the economy for others.

 

No, there is no expectation most subsidies are to be paid back. I have no idea why you think that is the case.

[SKL]

Yes, which I quite clearly did in my other post.

 

 

 

Ag subsidies are generally considered corporate welfare.

 

 

 

No, there is no expectation most subsidies are to be paid back. I have no idea why you think that is the case.

 

 

 

1) No, you mentioned food stamps AND welfare in your previous post.

 

2) OK.

 

3) I work in the industry of government-supported community development etc. I did not say "most" subsidies are to be paid back, but there are many "subsidies" that are. For example, the big bank bailout involved loans that needed to be paid back in order for banks to go on operating as non-government corporations. Solectron's debacle was a loan if I remember correctly. Other times, financing is in the form of government-owned equity, which the business will want to redeem in order to be free to operate like a business.

 

Still other subsidies require the business to offer things at below-market prices to the poor. Low-income housing is an example. Yes, it's a subsidy, but a lot of it trickles down. (I am not a fan of that particular subsidy either, just giving an example of how corporate subsidies aren't just straight gifts to rich people.)

 

Theoretically, a popularly-elected congress wouldn't be able to swing "corporate welfare" without demonstrating some significant benefit to low-income individuals.

[Embassy]

Another comment. It concerns me to see so many people, who are parents, scoff at the "American dream." What in the world do you teach your children, if you don't believe their hard work and education will open good opportunities for them?

 

 

I teach my children to work hard and education is very important to us. I teach them to reach for the stars and live their dreams. This has nothing to do with believing the American dream. The American dream is a lie. A person can do everything right, but not achieve the American dream. I will teach them to have compassion for the poor whether they have made mistakes or not. We all make mistakes somewhere. No one is perfect. We all have different opportunities in life. Some encounter more bumps on the road of life than others. It is just reality. The American dream that hard work and education will be the path to success isn't true. It is for some. For many others it is not. I also teach them that true happiness isn't found in America's definition of success.

[SKL]

 

I teach my children to work hard and education is very important to us. I teach them to reach for the stars and live their dreams. This has nothing to do with believing the American dream. The American dream is a lie. A person can do everything right, but not achieve the American dream. I will teach them to have compassion for the poor whether they have made mistakes or not. We all make mistakes somewhere. No one is perfect. We all have different opportunities in life. Some encounter more bumps on the road of life than others. It is just reality. The American dream that hard work and education will be the path to success isn't true. It is for some. For many others it is not. I also teach them that true happiness isn't found in America's definition of success.

 

Yes, I suspect you have a loaded interpretation of the word "success." I used the term "good opportunities." To me, the American dream is to be able to sustain oneself while doing something you believe in. I agree that sometimes people are dealt a hand that does not allow this, but these are the exceptions to the rule.

 

One problem we seem to have is that the American view of "enough" vs. "poor" is very strange IMO. That's why a person like me can be very content without a lot of things that some "poor" people feel the need to buy.

[Mama Geek]

 

If that is how you feel, I would expect your ire to be directed towards corporate subsidies and the military industrial complex, both of which have a greater impact on government spending than food stamps and welfare.

 

I've worked on military projects for years, there is more waste than you can imagine and no I don't think corporations should be subsidized either. I think there is a lot of waste in all sections of government and I don't think there are too many people around that would disagree with that.

[Scarlett]

My frustration is with programs that are intended to help them, but really don't.

 

 

How so? You don't think it is helpful that a mom can feed her kids? I can assure you I have known of many many people who have needed public assistance at one time or another in their life and it DID help them.

[Embassy]

Yes, I suspect you have a loaded interpretation of the word "success." I used the term "good opportunities." To me, the American dream is to be able to sustain oneself while doing something you believe in. I agree that sometimes people are dealt a hand that does not allow this, but these are the exceptions to the rule.

 

One problem we seem to have is that the American view of "enough" vs. "poor" is very strange IMO. That's why a person like me can be very content without a lot of things that some "poor" people feel the need to buy.

 

I would agree with your definition that a person would be able to sustain oneself while doing something he believes in. I don't think working hard and getting a good education will necessarily get you there. It can help, but opportunities aren't just ones we can make for ourselves. Success often involves opportunities given to us because of who we know or our background. Opportunity can get in the way of being able to work hard or being able to get an education.

 

The animosity against the poor in America is alive and well. The perpetuation of the American dream lie leads to having comments like this come across my Facebook screen:

 

 

" I am thinking my hubby should quit working hard to pay for other peoples stuff. Maybe we should all quit working and let the sponges see how soon their freebies run out."

"The sad thing is that they don't understand that I am always going to have more than them because we work hard and make good decisions. The gov't can't provide the lifestyle they are wanting."

 

 

Equating hard work with success (however you define it) is part of American thought. I'm not teaching my kids to think that way.

[Scarlett]

 

Exactly. Sometimes it seems like envisioning scenarios where a poor person might own something nice (even if they can't afford all their groceries) is just too much work for people. A woman pulling her food stamp card out of a Coach purse might have been GIVEN the purse. In fact, we are struggling right now and *I* own a Coach purse because dh's grandmother died and left him all of her nice things! (It's older and I don't use it, but this is to make a point. lol)

 

Those who make a very low wage often get LARGE tax returns--we're one of those families--and sometimes after paying off bills they actually get to buy something that most other people have. But others look at things and judge that a poor person *should not own it*. That is very wrong to me and why, unless you're willing to get to know someone and their situation, it's usually best to butt out.

 

I see this attitude all the time and it just blows my mind that people can't realize that there is usually more to a situation than 'they' can see.

 

I'd love to see a sample of what should be 'allowed' to be owned by a person accepting public assistance. The official guidelines are fairly strict IMO, but it is not enough for some who can't stand to see anyone have anything if the are using food stamps.

 

It is true that I know a few people well enough to feel qualified to have an opinion on how they spend their money (whether it includs PA or not). In the end though it is not my business. My brother is one such case. He is disabled and constantly complaining about not having enough to live on....I make suggestions on how to better maximize their situation and it is met with 'you don't understand.' Shrug. So yeah, some people just want to be victims, but often times there is more to the situation and we need to remember that when we see someone using fs and driving an expensive car.

[lovinmomma]

Completely off topic here, but as a mother that qualifies for food stamps, childcare assistance, etc. I really wish that the government (or whomever) worked more on getting people out of the hole that they are in rather than helping me just survive. This is not possible in every circumstance. I know a lot of moms like me that really want to be self-sufficent but just CAN'T. The help that I wish that I could get is the help to get my degree so that I can dig myself out of this hole. And NO I'm not talking about paying for my schooling (the government actually does do that). I'm more talking about the fact that right now I can only attend 1/2 time or less because it's so difficult to work full time, care for 3 kids, and go to school full time. I have no idea who would watch my kids while I attend school full time or how I would pay for it. Or how about work programs to help train individuals so that they can support themselves? I know that there are communities that do those sorts of things, but here where I am the only ones available are full up and the jobs that they are doing won't cut it financially.

[lovinmomma]

Completely off topic here, but as a mother that qualifies for food stamps, childcare assistance, etc. I really wish that the government (or whomever) worked more on getting people out of the hole that they are in rather than helping me just survive. This is not possible in every circumstance. I know a lot of moms like me that really want to be self-sufficent but just CAN'T. The help that I wish that I could get is the help to get my degree so that I can dig myself out of this hole. And NO I'm not talking about paying for my schooling (the government actually does do that). I'm more talking about the fact that right now I can only attend 1/2 time or less because it's so difficult to work full time, care for 3 kids, and go to school full time. I have no idea who would watch my kids while I attend school full time or how I would pay for it. Or how about work programs to help train individuals so that they can support themselves? I know that there are communities that do those sorts of things, but here where I am the only ones available are full up and the jobs that they are doing won't cut it financially.

 

So, a 4 year degree will take AT LEAST 8 years.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

1.) Yes, welfare. Not medicare or social security, but the actual cash payment program.

 

3) I work in the industry of government-supported community development etc. I did not say "most" subsidies are to be paid back, but there are many "subsidies" that are. For example, the big bank bailout involved loans that needed to be paid back in order for banks to go on operating as non-government corporations. Solectron's debacle was a loan if I remember correctly. Other times, financing is in the form of government-owned equity, which the business will want to redeem in order to be free to operate like a business.

 

Still other subsidies require the business to offer things at below-market prices to the poor. Low-income housing is an example. Yes, it's a subsidy, but a lot of it trickles down. (I am not a fan of that particular subsidy either, just giving an example of how corporate subsidies aren't just straight gifts to rich people.)

 

Theoretically, a popularly-elected congress wouldn't be able to swing "corporate welfare" without demonstrating some significant benefit to low-income individuals.

 

The bank bailouts were not defined as a subsidy, so you are (again) wrong.

[Scarlett]

Completely off topic here, but as a mother that qualifies for food stamps, childcare assistance, etc. I really wish that the government (or whomever) worked more on getting people out of the hole that they are in rather than helping me just survive. This is not possible in every circumstance. I know a lot of moms like me that really want to be self-sufficent but just CAN'T. The help that I wish that I could get is the help to get my degree so that I can dig myself out of this hole. And NO I'm not talking about paying for my schooling (the government actually does do that). I'm more talking about the fact that right now I can only attend 1/2 time or less because it's so difficult to work full time, care for 3 kids, and go to school full time. I have no idea who would watch my kids while I attend school full time or how I would pay for it. Or how about work programs to help train individuals so that they can support themselves? I know that there are communities that do those sorts of things, but here where I am the only ones available are full up and the jobs that they are doing won't cut it financially.

 

My mom went back to school full time and worked part time when I was 14 and my brother was 10.....so childcare was not an issue....she graduated with a teaching degree in 4 years with very little student loan debt and that was forgiven over the course of the next few years because she taught in a poverty school district.

[lovinmomma]

My mom went back to school full time and worked part time when I was 14 and my brother was 10.....so childcare was not an issue....she graduated with a teaching degree in 4 years with very little student loan debt and that was forgiven over the course of the next few years because she taught in a poverty school district.

 

That's awesome! If I cut my hours down to part time I would sink. :(

[Scarlett]

That's awesome! If I cut my hours down to part time I would sink. :(

 

 

Why is that? I am genuinely curious why my mom could swing it. Do you have a lot of debt? High rent? Mom had no car payment and she got HUD and her utilitiies paid...She got zero cs. Ever.

[Embassy]

"Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." - Herman Melville

[laundrycrisis]

 

 

How so? You don't think it is helpful that a mom can feed her kids? I can assure you I have known of many many people who have needed public assistance at one time or another in their life and it DID help them.

 

 

 

I never said that. I'm in favor of food welfare, including food stamps. I'm not angry that people get them. I don't mind contributing to them. It is my opinion that food stamps should only be good toward specific categories of food.

[lovinmomma]

Why is that? I am genuinely curious why my mom could swing it. Do you have a lot of debt? High rent? Mom had no car payment and she got HUD and her utilitiies paid...She got zero cs. Ever.

 

 

Maybe because my hourly pay isn't high enough? Not sure. I make enough to pay my bills most of the time. That's about it. Many months not even that. For instance, last week my dd had to stay home from school for 5 days because her preschool was closed down due to illness. I can't afford extras. I don't get HUD ( I have a lease) and my utilities are not paid. Applications for getting utilities paid were already closed last year by the time I applied. I will apply this year, but it takes a year before it takes effect. :) So, next year about this time I may have a little bit of relief. My rent is the CHEAPEST I can find in a less than stellar area. I searched and searched. My rent and fuel take up the majority of my income.

[Scarlett]

Maybe because my hourly pay isn't high enough? Not sure. I make enough to pay my bills most of the time. That's about it. Many months not even that. For instance, last week my dd had to stay home from school for 5 days because her preschool was closed down due to illness. I can't afford extras. I don't get HUD ( I have a lease) and my utilities are not paid. Applications for getting utilities paid were already closed last year by the time I applied. I will apply this year, but it takes a year before it takes effect. :) So, next year about this time I may have a little bit of relief. My rent is the CHEAPEST I can find in a less than stellar area. I searched and searched. My rent and fuel take up the majority of my income.

 

 

 

I do know that fuel is MUCH higher than it was when my mom was getting her degree. (she graduated college in 83). But her part time work was house cleaning and some work study.....neither paid much per hour.

 

 

And rent is a HUGE deal. Is there public housing where you are? Where we grew up we lived in some for about a year and half until mom was able to get us out into a rent house in the country. Even though she didn't care for them they were not unsafe like I know many cities public housing is.

 

Do you have family support? Anyone you can move in with while you go for the degree full time?

[SKL]

1.) Yes, welfare. Not medicare or social security, but the actual cash payment program.

 

The bank bailouts were not defined as a subsidy, so you are (again) wrong.

 

How do you know that the bank bailouts would not have met "corporate welfare" definition of the Wikipedia guy you quoted? It's a subjective term, that's the point.

 

I am NOT talking about medicare or social security. I'm talking about what most of us would refer to as "welfare" such as TANF, ADC, AFDC, temporary relief, whatever else they are calling it these days, extended unemployment checks, family housing subsidies, free breakfasts, free lunches, childcare subsidies, Medicaid, and probably a couple dozen other programs that address the same general set of problems. In addition to food stamps, which you stated cost $80B in 2012.

 

Anyhoo, I mostly just didn't like your tone about me being "(again) wrong." I had a point to make and you only proved me right.

[jewellsmommy]

Yup, we're below the poverty limit with a refurb ipad (wish I had an iPhone!). But we Scrimped and happens upon a small chunk of money for it and it's so necessary for my dyslexic and speech kids. But almost everything nice we have is from hand me downs and holiday gifts from generous family. I make most of our furniture and we got really lucky buying our house and car. We look better off than we are. I don't use food stamps, but I always feel judged when using our Medicaid card (which here in IL is available for most families and there are co-pays, etc like private insurance) because it would cost us 60-70% of our income for private insurance-not counting co-pays and deductibles. Never judge based on appearances.

 

 

I now know how this feels. Because we are Ds's guardians, our income is not a factor in determining certain things for him. He has medicaid that picks up whatever the first insurance does not. I am immensely grateful for this because he has a lot of special needs and is on multiple meds a month etc. But I have been at Target pharmacy before with my cart containing what I consider some luxuries in it as I pull out that medicaid card. BTW, every single month there is some issue between the insurance and the medicaid fighting over something. It takes sooo much time to just pick up perscriptions that believe me if I could afford the cost of his medical care, I would drop that medicaid in a heartbeat and just pay the remainder out of pocket. But I can't quite afford that so I deal with the headache and am grateful for the help. The point is, that I feel very sheepish to have that card in my hand while there is other stuff like brownie mix, a new dress for dd, cute pjs for ds, and a new movie for a special family night right there in my shopping cart. You get the picture. I always want to turn and explain myself to whomever may be looking.

 

We are probably lower middle class. We alternate between a pay check to pay check status and at other points we have money in savings. It just depends on what all has happened to us, like when a squirrel eats part of your car :glare: or if dh, dd or myself has racked up medical bills etc. We do not qualiy for or receive other financial service, but people looking at me in that moment of battling the pharmacy may make other assumptions.

 

I think we all know people who make financial decisions that we would not make in their shoes, or we look on and declare financial travesty in the wake of that financial decision if they make it and so on. We wonder how in the world they could possibly afford to buy xy and z when you know they just had an electric cut-off notice the month before. But we are not them! And I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I have a hard enough time running my own life, I don't think I will be electing myself guru over someone else's life. :lol: . It is all too easy to end up the victim of that game.

[Dustybug]

Obviously, you know much more about this particular situation than I do, but generally speaking, how do you know if those nicer items were gifts or not? Or if the nice clothes came from Goodwill? My kids are often in "name brand" clothes, but 99% of the time they came from the consignment store (at $3 or less/pc or Goodwill). I have an iPhone - my kids are on Medicaid. What people don't know is that the iPhone is the original version and was a hand-me-down. I'm on my mom's plan and she pays the bill. But, to an outsider.....I'm a "poor" person with an iPhone I shouldn't have.

 

Yep. We shop consignment as well, and my kids will sometimes have nice name brands in near new condition, but I actually paid $2 for them a piece. The Christmas after my DH lost his job, my mom purchased a swingset for my children as a Christmas gift. I got a ton of flack for us "wasting so much money" on that when we didn't spend a dime.

[SKL]

So, a 4 year degree will take AT LEAST 8 years.

 

My parents quit high school long before they could have graduated. They got married at 17 and 19 and by their mid-20s, they had 4 kids (and both worked full-time). My mom started attending community college part-time in her late 20s (that would have been around 1970). Eventually she completed her GED and then started attending a university, in between adding kids #5 and #6. She graduated with her associate's degree in 1988. I remember this because that's when I graduated with my bachelor's degree. :)

 

ETA: Oh, and my dad graduated with his associates' degree in 1989. A huge accomplishment given his severe dyslexia.

[lovinmomma]

Yep. We shop consignment as well, and my kids will sometimes have nice name brands in near new condition, but I actually paid $2 for them a piece. The Christmas after my DH lost his job, my mom purchased a swingset for my children as a Christmas gift. I got a ton of flack for us "wasting so much money" on that when we didn't spend a dime.

 

Exactly. I don't even have the funds to shop at the consignment stores, but my neighbor works at one and has been bringing me a few things here and there (pants) that she finds. She gets them for free and she has great taste. Since she's the first person to see the new things that come in the store they are usually name brand. Now, just to get some shirts, socks and underwear! lol

[lovinmomma]

My parents quit high school long before they could have graduated. They got married at 17 and 19 and by their mid-20s, they had 4 kids (and both worked full-time). My mom started attending community college part-time in her late 20s (that would have been around 1970). Eventually she completed her GED and then started attending a university, in between adding kids #5 and #6. She graduated with her associate's degree in 1988. I remember this because that's when I graduated with my bachelor's degree. :)

 

ETA: Oh, and my dad graduated with his associates' degree in 1989. A huge accomplishment given his severe dyslexia.

 

I LOVE this story. It makes me so happy to read stories like that of your parents. It gives me hope! :)

 

ETA: I deleted personal info

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

How do you know that the bank bailouts would not have met "corporate welfare" definition of the Wikipedia guy you quoted? It's a subjective term, that's the point.

 

Because of how they were structured. We also know they were not counted as corporate subsidies considering the bailout total of $700 billion exceeds the total direct subsidy for 7 years.

 

I am NOT talking about medicare or social security. I'm talking about what most of us would refer to as "welfare" such as TANF, ADC, AFDC, temporary relief, whatever else they are calling it these days, extended unemployment checks, family housing subsidies, free breakfasts, free lunches, childcare subsidies, Medicaid, and probably a couple dozen other programs that address the same general set of problems. In addition to food stamps, which you stated cost $80B in 2012.

 

Unemployment checks are not welfare (look at the eligibility requirements), and the same applies to a few other items you mentioned. Once again, you demonstrate that you no much less about this topic than you believe.

 

Anyhoo, I mostly just didn't like your tone about me being "(again) wrong." I had a point to make and you only proved me right.

 

No, I didn't.

[Anne in CA]

I will hopefully be the thread killer here, but I have no common sense so I must jump in and point out that these threads start around Christmas because most people are pressured to give at Christmas and become aware of those in need. To someone of moderate income social pressure to provide Christmas presents for someone else can be abrasive. I have been there, when I was only able to buy the very minimum of gifts, my house was waaayyy underwater, and I was having to read every cost per oz of every item that went in my grocery cart and my church, KLOVE, work, and other people were trying to guilt trip me into giving. I actually love to give, God loves a CHEERFUL giver, though and sometimes people make it hard to be cheerful.

 

DH and I are both employed and responsible. I am happy to help others when I feel led to by GOD, not by GUILT, and I bet most people on the board are.

 

As far as accountability, for both rich and poor people, it seems to have gone out of style. Grace is what matters. We lived below the poverty level as kids buy my mother would NEVER have gotten food stamps, she had a garden, she fed us good fresh food, we lived in the country and my father always made sure we had venison and eggs. I did not have a bike till I was nine and then it came from a police auction, dirt cheap. We were poor, but not in a cycle of poverty, all of my siblings and I have a comfortable life, but we got there with a lot of work, refusal to buy things now and pay later, and blessing from above. My parents worked themselves very hard and never enjoyed the things we kids have. It is the sacrifice they made. We are good to my parents, their example made a way for us to succeed.

 

I sure can see that people can work very hard and not get ahead, because my two parents are in that boat. But people can work hard and get ahead because dh and I have done that. I worked full time waiting tables until a week before my ds was born. Dh worked and went to college at the same time. Both things can happen.

[stansclan89]

And rent is a HUGE deal. Is there public housing where you are? Where we grew up we lived in some for about a year and half until mom was able to get us out into a rent house in the country. Even though she didn't care for them they were not unsafe like I know many cities public housing is.

 

 

Everywhere we have lived (WA, OR, ID, AZ) public housing had a waiting list of 18-24 months.

[lovinmomma]

I replied to this in a private message, but for clarity sake public housing is closed here. Has been for awhile. There's a rumor that it will open this year for a month.

[Catwoman]

I teach my children that their goal in life is to become saints. I teach them that hard work is a virtue and that their education is a good in and of itself and what's more it is a gift and not some sort of "right." I teach them that one should be virtuous without looking for a material reward for that virtue because very often life is unfair and the lives of the saints demonstrate that being good does not always equal being successful. The prosperity gospel is an unfortunate American innovation.

 

I don't want my ds12 to have the goal of being a saint. Talk about pressure! :svengo:

 

I also want him to have material goals. Material goals matter. It's nice to be saintly and hardworking, but money makes your life a whole lot easier. My ds knows that the decisions he makes regarding his education and his career choice will have a strong impact on his future ability to achieve financial security and success. Frankly, I don't see him wanting to become a missionary or a social worker, because there's no money in those jobs. And I'm fine with that. I want him to be happy with whatever he chooses to do with his life, because of course there's no guarantee of financial success, but some careers have a higher probability of providing financial security than others, and I'm hoping he chooses to pursue one of those -- and I assume that he will, because that's the example he has seen in our family.

 

I'm sure many people will say that I have an un-Christian, mercenary, and materialistic outlook on life, but I think it's very possible to have financial success and security, while still being a good, kind, decent, and honest person -- and that's what I hope for when I think about my ds's future. There's nothing inherently evil about prosperity, or about working toward material goals.

[Heather in Neverland]

I feel the need to reiterate my first comment.

 

And how about a thread of holiday cheer for those of us who aren't hating on the poor? I just took my kids shopping for books and coloring books for the hospital kids' unit and we took doughnuts up to the fire station and told them thank you for the hard work. My kids handed out candy canes to workers and grumpy shoppers while out wasting time before a holiday performance. (Don't worry, they weren't bought on food stamps.) My grocery budget is almost non-existent right now, but I am more than happy to give back where I can. I'm so sick of hearing all the grumpiness on here. Sure, I don't have to read it, but then I'll miss out on the posters on here who make me happy and reaffirm what the season is all about. Anyone want to join me? Even if you can't give back right now, maybe a thread of feel good stuff for the season?

 

 

I know, right? I keep reading these comments about what people are seeing when they are "standing in line at the grocery store. " All I can think is "I never notice what is in anyone's cart because I am usually reading a book or playing some silly game on my cell phone when I stand in line."

 

So maybe the key to improving everyone's mood is to stop looking in each other's shopping cart?

 

It was worth a shot.

[TravelingChris]

I am with Heather. I have no idea what most people are buying or with what-except I know it is usually cards or cash, not checks. It probably wouldn't be fruitful for me to look for food stamp cards, anyway, since I doubt they get used much at my local stores and not at the commissary either.

[goldberry]

Just a question about the ire and judgmentalism that many feel get directed toward wealthy people...do wealthy people really get criticized just for being wealthy? I honestly don't see alot of "That person's such a jerk, look at all the money they have.." It seems to me only to happen when someone who is well off draws attention to themselves by making judgments about other people's situation, not having a sense of reality, or judging everyone else by their own experience.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about that. Obviously many of you feel very strongly that wealthy people get judged as well. But people on food stamps usually don't have too much time to go around lobbying to stop rich people from getting subsidies. I agree that it's wrong to judge anyone simply by their financial status. I just don't think it happens equally on both sides.

 

Bottom line, the poor lack the power and control of people who are well off. They simply don't have the power to hurt the wealthy the way the wealthy can hurt the poor by their influence.