Frustrated with Ds but even more frustrated with myself

[Meriwether]

I love Ds8. I love him so much. He is the darling of my heart (along with the others). I just don't know how to parent him.

 

Today Ds8 took 42 minutes to do a 64 problem multiplication time sheet. 42 minutes. After it took him 15 minutes to organize himself enough to start. Another hour into his math lesson with the bulk of work left to be done, I lost it. I yelled at him. Loudly. For more than a minute. I didn't call him names. It was things like, "You are wasting YOUR time. You are wasting MY time. You are wasting the OTHERS' time. I am. so. sick. of spending 3 hours on your math. I don't want to hear 'I'm the stupidest kid from you' (this is what he says at even the gentlest correction). Don't start feeling sorry for yourself. Sit down. You've got 10 minutes to do this fact sheet."

 

I hate it when I do that. I truly hate it. The thing is - it was effective. He only got 60 of the problems done in ten minutes, so I made him do another one. He finished in 8 minutes and 58 seconds. He did two fact sheets, the 7 problems from his Lesson Practice, and 27 problems from his Mixed Practice in about the same amount of time it took him to do the first fact sheet. He wasn't angry (and after I yelled, neither was I). He was pleasant while he worked. When he was done, he apologized for making me yell. :crying: I apologized for yelling. I told that he can't make me yell. I do that all on my own.

 

I want him to work more efficiently. I don't want to yell to accomplish that. What do I do with him?

 

I redirect him so often, I could set a recording next him that says, "Son, do the next problem." The problem is, he will shake himself and say, "Oh, yeah," but he is off somewhere in his imagination before he even finishes the next problem. If I remind him to work on a problem a second, or third, or fourth time, he will hit himself on the side of the head and call himself stupid. If I say something along the lines of "you need to do a better job focusing today", he will say something along the lines of "I'm sorry I'm such a terrible kid today." His responses are so over the top that I've found myself trying to tiptoe around him. To be clear, or clearer, it isn't just what he says, it is how he says it. He is a born pessimist. He really feels like he is a terrible person. I worry that the idea that he is a terrible person will cement itself in his brain if he thinks it often enough. So, I end up biting my tongue and dragging him through his school day. That is frustrating, because even if the others finish at a decent time, Ds and I are still at it late in the day. I don't do everything I'd like to do with the kids, because it is draining to work with Ds for that long.

 

His school work isn't too hard for him. Math is the main trigger, because it is his longest subject. He took an equally frustrating amount of time to eat his oatmeal this morning (30 minutes longer than it should have taken). Doing easier work would not make him any faster.

 

I don't even know what I'm looking for. This might just be a vent. Or maybe someone else has a kid like this and has some advice.

[regentrude]

No advice, except that, for a child like this, I would choose a math program that is concise and to the point and does not contain as much busy work.

[Arcadia]

That is frustrating, because even if the others finish at a decent time, Ds and I are still at it late in the day. I don't do everything I'd like to do with the kids, because it is draining to work with Ds for that long.

 

He took an equally frustrating amount of time to eat his oatmeal this morning (30 minutes longer than it should have taken). Doing easier work would not make him any faster.

 

 

My older boy who is turning 8 dawdles sometimes. It does not matter if it is easy or hard, math or language arts. If he is in his dawdling mode, I just do my housework and spend time with my younger while he gets his work done. The slower he does his work, the less play time he has left for the day.

 

My younger brother however needed someone to sit with him at all times while he does his work (as a kid) or nothing gets done. He just can't concentrate amd will drift off.

 

A 64 problem multiplication problem sheet would cause both my kids to get bored though and not be willing to do them. They do at most 30~40 mixed problems a day.

 

Is it possible for you to leave him with his work while you do what you want to do with your other kids? Is three hours for math how long your son is taking everyday or just occasionally?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Can you challenge him with a timer and a "I bet you can't do this?" (In a teasing way - they know that I really do think they can do it.) Both my kids respond to that.

[Meriwether]

I get what you are saying. The math isn't the main problem, though. It was my trigger today. He would draw out any kind of program. It is eating his oatmeal, brushing his teeth, doing his spelling, looking up words in a dictionary, etc. We are stuck in this cycle of him drawing something out until I speak with an edge or give him a hard deadline for getting something done. I don't often lose control and yell, but I have to prod him throughout the day.

[Dana]

It also can be the age.

My son is sometimes like that.

I'm just back to teaching him again after being on strike for the past couple of months (dh picked up and did all the teaching).

The break was good for both of us.

I do have to sit with my son (10) most of the time and redirect him when his attention wanders.

If it wanders too far, that's when I yell.

 

We're using a positive reinforcement technique where he earns time each day for electronics on the weekend. He gets a marble for good behavior, good attitude, or good school work. Average is about 5 a day. Each marble can be redeemed on the weekend for 15 min of video gaming. It's helped.

 

Hang in there...and you definitely aren't alone!

[Meriwether]

Can you challenge him with a timer and a "I bet you can't do this?" (In a teasing way - they know that I really do think they can do it.) Both my kids respond to that.

 

 

Timers completely freak him out. If he doesn't beat the time (or even if he takes too long on ONE problem and gets flustered) he'll go on and on about how stupid he is. He is not stupid. He compares himself to Dd9 a lot. Unfortunately for comparison sake, Dd9 can do 100 problems in less than two minutes. It does no good to tell him that she is older and two years ahead of him in school. It does no good to tell him he is doing fine for his age - he almost never gets a problem wrong - he just keeps saying he is terrible at school.

[wapiti]

Timers completely freak him out. If he doesn't beat the time (or even if he takes too long on ONE problem and gets flustered) he'll go on and on about how stupid he is. He is not stupid. He compares himself to Dd9 a lot. Unfortunately for comparison sake, Dd9 can do 100 problems in less than two minutes. It does no good to tell him that she is older and two years ahead of him in school. It does no good to tell him he is doing fine for his age - he almost never gets a problem wrong - he just keeps saying he is terrible at school.

 

 

I would try to avoid timed tests, as it sounds like they're doing more harm than good.

 

(FWIW, if it's any consolation, I have a ds who operates on slow speed. He is a deep thinker.)

[Meriwether]

My older boy who is turning 8 dawdles sometimes. It does not matter if it is easy or hard, math or language arts. If he is in his dawdling mode, I just do my housework and spend time with my younger while he gets his work done. The slower he does his work, the less play time he has left for the day. I hate it when he loses all afternoon.

 

My younger brother however needed someone to sit with him at all times while he does his work (as a kid) or nothing gets done. He just can't concentrate amd will drift off.

 

A 64 problem multiplication problem sheet would cause both my kids to get bored though and not be willing to do them. They do at most 30~40 mixed problems a day.

 

Is it possible for you to leave him with his work while you do what you want to do with your other kids? Is three hours for math how long your son is taking everyday or just occasionally?

He can do all parts of the math lesson in about an hour if he focuses. He has a good day about once every two or three weeks. He usually takes 2 - 2 1/2 hours. This week has been three. Time off throws him off more than the others. It had't occured to me that 64 problems was a lot. He doesn't seem to mind doing the actual work. Neither of us like the time he invests into it. The math doesn't take him three hours. Staring off into space thinking about who knows what (today it was flamingos among other things) is what takes so long. He usually does better when I am sitting right beside him. I am usually in the same room, but I haven't been right by his side as much this last month or two. I started doing other things because I was losing that hour, but I'm losing an hour of my time anyhow. With Ds losing a couple of hours and our stress rising, I'm sure I'd be better off sitting with him during math. The problem with that is that I have to help him more with Language Arts than math. If I spend that much time with him, the others are shortchanged. Of course, they are being shortchanged anyhow.

[Robin M]

My son is a dawdler as well. He's trying to do everything independently now (6th/7th grade work) but he is so slow and by the time he is done, I'm too tired to check it. We spent a week this way and half the stuff was wrong and had to be redone, so we spent an extra week going back over the stuff. So not worth letting him go off into his room to work alone. Sooo..... We work together and zoom through the work.

 

When he was your son's age, I would just walk him through the math worksheet, reading the problems and him writing down the answers. Otherwise, he is the stare into space, daydreaming kind of kid. He hasn't outgrown that. I only have the one, so I can sit with him, make sure things get done in a timely manner. Ultimately you'll have to be the one that times him or reminds him. Don't let him work alone in his room but in the kitchen or somewhere you can see him and keep him on track.

 

The 64 multiplication worksheet - should be done in 5 minutes. Time him. Make it a contest to see how much he can get done in that time. The remaining work. Pick only odd #'s or even' #'s and he has to complete those by a certain time. If you have to sit with him, then do it. One hour - it's done. Then you can move on to other things.

 

Mine works better on a schedule and a checklist. At 8, he needed a lot of hand holding. It's how boys are. Yes, we have had our yelling contests and I can't tell you how many times I've lost my temper and yelled. I'm practicing being a zen mom now. No yelling period. I think boys really try our patience.

 

*hugs* You are not alone.

[Meriwether]

I would try to avoid timed tests, as it sounds like they're doing more harm than good.

 

(FWIW, if it's any consolation, I have a ds who operates on slow speed. He is a deep thinker.)

 

 

I tried using a timer with him about two times. He will sometimes use a timer himself counting up instead of down. We use the timed tests as fact sheet practice. I don't usually put pressure on getting it done in a certain amount of time because he doesn't handle it well. I do keep an eye on the clock so that I know how he is doing.

 

Ds8 is a deep thinker, too. We just said goodnight. Hugs and kisses. I said that tomorrow was going to be a good day. He smiled and said that he hoped so. So sweet. He really does hope so. We both want him to be successful. I got upset today, but we are fighting this together. I hope I haven't given people the impression that Ds and I have a rocky relationship. I acted badly today, but we love each other very much. Most of our time together is positive. We have good times during school, too, just tension when I'm trying to get him moving on his work.

[sbgrace]

I have a child like that. Only my yelling (I've been there too; today was a bad day at my house) results in a complete melt down out of him and nothing will get done. That means I'm less likely to do it as it makes it worse. But he's very much like yours otherwise right down to eating. My son would honestly probably benefit from ADHD meds though for various reasons we're not trying that right now.

 

I do all his lessons directly with him. It doesn't matter how easy or challenging it is--unless my son came up with an idea on his own (involving his imagination) his focus just won't be there to complete anything beyond a problem or two. That math would have to be oral and with me working it with him and even then for my son it couldn't be anything close to that long. I shorten a lot of things for this kid. I modify a lot of things (6 astronauts x's 5 astronauts means how many went to the moon? Can you write that answer with crazy looking letters? etc.) just because if I can engage his mind I'll get a bit more focus out of him for at least a while longer.

 

We did multiplication today too. I didn't do our text or workbook with him. I just took cards and we played a war type multiplication game with them until he lost his focus. Then I had him run around and we finished up with a really animated me excited about his ability to answer 3 x 9 and 7 x 4. When that petered I just gave him a break, went to another subject later, and worked a few more multiplication problems in right before spelling. Anyway, it's always one on one and quality over quantity here. He exhausts me.

 

You might think about switching up some things to avoid those struggles as much as possible but mostly I just wanted you to know I read your post and identified. It's beyond frustrating. You're not alone.

[Meriwether]

Mytwoblessings - You are supposed to tell me he'll grow out of it! I am almost always in the same room as Ds. Even if I am working with the other kids, I will look at him and remind him to do the next problem pretty constantly.

 

sbgrace - :grouphug: to you. I hope you have a good day tomorrow.

[Arcadia]

He usually does better when I am sitting right beside him. ...... The problem with that is that I have to help him more with Language Arts than math. If I spend that much time with him, the others are shortchanged. Of course, they are being shortchanged anyhow.

 

 

Your son might be more like my younger brother (he is 9 years younger). My parents or me had to sit with him just to prod him along. In your case it really might end up being much faster if you sit next to him than to leave him to drift off.

 

My brother also compared himself to me his whole life. He will say he is stupid and not as good as me. :sad: My parents and I have no solution to that and he is now 31. Hopefully someone else is able to give you advice on that.

[momtoamiracle]

My 6yo is just lie that, I usually have only ten math problems and he takes forever. One time we did 15 in about two minutes. I don't know what got into him that day. I daily lose my temper and tell him he will have to go to public school.

 

 

He just hates anything that is not play. I have to make his lessons short. When I start to lose him I really should quit. I just know he could do more if he would just sit still a little longer...not gonna happen tho.

 

 

 

I guess I'll be doing it this way for more years!

 

 

I asked dr if he was ADHD and she said he was NOT. Just very creative and very active... And very exhausting!

[Garga]

When my oldest was that age, and for my DS7 now, they will tell me the answer and I will write it in for them. And then I'll say, "Next one--go!"

 

I cannot leave the youngest alone for math. I just can't. We sit next to each other: he answers, I write it down, I say, "Next one--go!" And no pencil for DS7, because he'll start doodling and get really upset when I don't let him finish the doodle.

[Meriwether]

It also can be the age.

My son is sometimes like that.

I'm just back to teaching him again after being on strike for the past couple of months (dh picked up and did all the teaching).

The break was good for both of us.

I do have to sit with my son (10) most of the time and redirect him when his attention wanders.

If it wanders too far, that's when I yell.

 

We're using a positive reinforcement technique where he earns time each day for electronics on the weekend. He gets a marble for good behavior, good attitude, or good school work. Average is about 5 a day. Each marble can be redeemed on the weekend for 15 min of video gaming. It's helped.

 

Hang in there...and you definitely aren't alone!

 

 

I'm glad you got a break when you needed one. I've thought about doing some kind of system, but I know I'm not the type to monitor it well. I hope your year continues to get better.

[Meriwether]

When my oldest was that age, and for my DS7 now, they will tell me the answer and I will write it in for them. And then I'll say, "Next one--go!"

 

I cannot leave the youngest alone for math. I just can't. We sit next to each other: he answers, I write it down, I say, "Next one--go!" And no pencil for DS7, because he'll start doodling and get really upset when I don't let him finish the doodle.

 

 

Do you do that for his fact practice or the whole lesson? I write out the computation section of the Lesson Practice for him. If it is a problem like 'Write out 15.498 using words', I'll let him answer verbally. I do make him set up the other problems. I don't think I've ever "been his secretary" for fact sheets. I will kneel beside him at times and repeat "next problem" as he works. Sometimes it helps a lot. Sometimes it makes him more time conscious and tense.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Would he work better doing his math (or any other subject that seems to get him bogged down) in short bursts instead of all at one sitting? Faced with an hour's worth of continuous work causes dd to be extremely pokey. I completely understand that mentality in some kids, especially young ones who might feel like an hour of work might as well be all day. I break dd's math down into sets when it is review work or work that she can accomplish without me sitting right there. I highlight parts that I know should take her about 15 minutes and then we do something else and come back to the math to finish up. I also try to break up our math instruction so that we aren't doing just workbooks\worksheets for a solid hour. We do about 15 minutes of one on one, 30 minutes of review and practice, and 15 minutes of games.

[Meriwether]

If he seems defeated, I let him go get a snack or play for awhile. If he asks to work on something else - spelling, WWE, logic problem - between math sections, I'll let him. It helps with math in the moment but doesn't solve anything longterm. He is quite capable of spending more than 1/2 an hour on his spelling list, too.

 

 

With all the advice that people have given, I've been thinking about the things that I have tried in the past or that I do occaionally now. I am too tired right now to be emotional. I think a lot of this is who he is. My general opinion on personality traits is that they all have a positive and a negative side. Ds is slow, but he has a great imagination and he rarely gets anything wrong. I can't just accept the pace he has been working at, but I'm going to try harder to accept him. I'll sit beside him tomorrow and see if his time improves.

[dangermom]

Can I give you some ideas I've used? My daughter is now 9 and we've had a terrible time with math fact sheets. She hates 'em. She would sit there and dawdle and cry and....yeah. It turns out that this is because her visual handicap makes it almost impossible to look at a sheet of paper filled with tiny figures. But anyway, I've come up with some coping mechanisms.

 

We have a mini-trampoline and I would have her jump and yell out answers as I called out the questions. This was very fun for her. (Actually I would have her say the whole thing-- 9x5=45 --so as to get it all in her head.)

 

I downloaded a free app to my tablet that is just a little math facts practice thing. She loves it--the numbers are much easier for her to see--and will happily do 50+ in a row in a few minutes.

 

Timez Attack also worked well for her (but not for the computer, which was too old to handle the game).

 

Flashcards with the problems written nice and big, and only one there at a time. You could scatter them around the floor and have him jump on them and call out the fact.

 

 

Basically, we don't do math fact sheets, and we especially don't do timed tests. But she knows her math facts very well, and life is much happier now.

[caroljenn]

My dd who is now 15, has been slow her whole life. She was in private school and I would go to a parent teacher conference and they'd say she's been looking out the window. She was bored some of the time, sometimes the work itself was dull and sometimes it was too easy. Sometimes there was something more interesting going on outside the window!

 

As she moved into middle school, she was forced to speed up a little because she wouldn't get all of her work done without staying up to all hours,and at her school you always turned your homework in on time. That training helped when I pulled her out of school for homeschooling, but there are still blow ups at the beginning of every year. She ALWAYS slacks and is slow the beginning month of school and I ALWAYS yell and scream and vent my frustration. We both tend to get our frustrations out that way and then come to an understanding that it just needs to be done, or x, y, or z will happen. The loss of her computer is usually enough to prod her along!

 

I think some people (like me) pay close attention to what they're interested in, but its harder to pay attention when it's something dull. It's human nature! I'm sorry I don't have any actual advice, just letting you know you're not alone!!

 

p.s. I don't think 64 problems is too much if they are all on one sheet and are basic 2x2 or 7x8 problems. My dd had to do 100 of those types of problems, say all 2x, in 2 minutes in the third grade to be able to advance to the next times table (3x). She hated the timer, so I made her do 5 timed tests per day at home to desensitize her to the timer. We still go back to "practicing" timed tests when she knows she will have a limited amount of time for testing. Hope that helps!

 

[caroljenn]

Sorry- double post!

[ElizabethB]

I would try letting him just to odd or even if he focuses. If he loses focus, then he has to do them all. My daughter does better if she does less problems with focus than more problems distracted. I even cut down her Singapore at times, and it has less problems than Saxon in general. (I used to cut down her old math even more, it had far too many problems for her. Singapore is a much better fit.)

[LMD]

Oh man, I haven't read all the replies but it is uncanny, you just described my 5 year old to a T. He even does the banging head, an hour to eat breakfast, off with the fairies. He is a born pessimist, and needs to be dragged through everything. My dh gives me lots of insight, he was the same. He says that there's just too much information to process that he's off in his own head all the time.

[phathui5]

I get what you are saying. The math isn't the main problem, though. It was my trigger today. He would draw out any kind of program. It is eating his oatmeal, brushing his teeth, doing his spelling, looking up words in a dictionary, etc. We are stuck in this cycle of him drawing something out until I speak with an edge or give him a hard deadline for getting something done. I don't often lose control and yell, but I have to prod him throughout the day.

 

 

That sounds just like my oldest ds.

[Eagle]

My son is a dawdler. He is always looking around or daydreaming. I try to channel that into something productive -- like creative writing.

 

Two things help speed him up -- rewards and praise. For completing math pages without excessively dragging along or complaining, he gets stickers. He's also finally figured out that if he eats dinner faster he will have special playtime with Daddy with a toy he otherwise rarely gets to play. Suddenly dinner doesn't have to take two hours to eat.

 

But for us praise is the best motivator. I complement him on how nice he prints the numbers on the worksheets. I act surprised and happy when he figures out to do the next question rather than wait for me to tell him to do it. I tell him how smart he is when he gets several questions right in a row. Would most people think I'm overdoing the praise? Probably. But for my son it provides motivation to hurry along so he can see how pleased I am. It even gets him interested about subjects he previously didn't like, because he feels confident in his abilities. I boast about his excellent math work, or lovely art, or wonderful story to his Dad when he comes home from work, and my son's face lights up with pride. I find that it makes a big difference in his attitude toward schoolwork and his ability to focus.

[violamama]

So, my older boy has some similarities with your boy. I haven't parented an 8 year old yet, so I'm probably really unqualified to answer but I have two ideas.

 

1. When we use a 3 x 5 card with a hole the width of one problem in it, my son does MUCH better and enjoys it more. He covers the distracting stuff and uses this isolation card to help himself physically focus on what he needs to do right then. This absolutely revolutionized our reading, which was completely freaking him out and he was soooo slowwww and saying he was sorry and all that, too. The best part is that he really *gets* how to focus on just one word now rather than a sea of info, even without the card.

 

2. The timer. I wonder if it might be a good idea to use it but only as a carrot for a while, especially considering the slowness and lack of focus is not just at school. Time him while helping him. Casually comment that he has focused for 8 minutes straight (wow, that's impressive!), or whatever. Ask him how it felt (especially if it's a successful session). From time to time see if he can do a challenge to beat his own times.

I recommend this de-sensitization because he will run into timed things his entire life. In fact, he will probably "feel the timer" even when it's not there as he gets older. Why not make it no big deal while he's young, when it's somewhat easier.

The other reason it may be useful is I think boys this age really like knowing their misery is finite. They do much better knowing there is an end-time in place. In fact, what about switching it up to see how much he can do in an allotted amount of time (2.5 hours is VERY long for math at that age, isn't it?) rather than just do it forever until you do it right.

He will learn it, and it sounds like you're concerned about what he's assuming about himself along the way. So maybe chill about the # of problems for a while and focus on helping him with his approach to task completion in general...

 

Also, it is so clear from your posts how much you love him and that he's a compassionate sweetheart also. It's neat to see that.

[fraidycat]

When I find that I can't keep the kids on track and paying attention to their own work, they put down the pencils and I pick 'em up. We do it orally, and I'll either put a check mark in the book that we did it, or just write the answer down. It goes much quicker because they've got to keep focused on me to hear the question and formulate the answer.

 

Also, they rarely sit in chairs anymore. I have two of the big inflatable exercise balls. They sit (or bounce) on them to do their schoolwork. That seems to help too. I keeps their body and their mind busy at the same time. They'll bounce for a few seconds while they read the question and think of the answer, then stop to write, then start bouncing again. I should video it someday - it's quite comical to see if I really stop to think about it. :)

 

As for general dawdling in life - my DD is like that. So is my sister. And my Dad. My deceased Grandpa and Aunt were the same way. That is just the way some people are. It drives my DH absolutely batty when my DD is dawdling. I obviously grew up around dawdlers, so while I do get antsy and short-tempered about it sometimes when we're in a hurry, it doesn't affect me the way it does DH on a more regular basis.

[mom2att]

My son is 12 and is very similar to yours, OP. No he has not outgrown it, but it's who he is. He cannot complete math fact sheets in under the time limit and turn around and ask for more, like his sister did when she was younger than he is now, but then she never asked the deep, pondering questions that he does regularly. He is a deep thinker and a dreamer and I have learned to really love and appreciate those things in him. He is also slower than pond water and a subject like math can take for.ev.er. I can be in the middle of explaining a math lesson and my son is looking at me and, for all intents and purposes, engaged with the lesson. Then I stop to take a breath and he interrupts me with something like, "Do you believe that God made any other people besides humans?" His mind is just always somewhere else, somewhere deeper and more interesting, than MATH.

 

But math must be done, and so we plod along. But I don't and haven't for years given him the whole timed sheet that comes with each Saxon lesson. We do still do them, but I'll have him do two lines, or if it's really easy, half of the sheet without the timer. He's still getting the facts practice, but not a mind-numbing dose of it. I have also found that giving him a timer to complete his lesson has been helpful. It was taking him forever to complete the 30 problems of the lesson, and like the OP I was tired of prodding him along. So I gave him my phone, set the timer for 30 minutes, and told him he was done when the timer went off, regardless of how much he had completed. Surprisingly, he liked this idea and completed the entire lesson with 4 minutes to spare. We have employed it often since, because it is helpful for him to know that he won't be sitting there forever and it motivates him to maintain focus and get the work done. This is a kid who stresses out over a timed fact sheet and completely shuts down, but somehow the use of the timer as an ending signal instead of a competitive device is appealing to him.

 

For the record, my son also has processing and attention issues. We are learning to cope with those things, but he'll always be a deep thinker and operate differently than my daughter (and me!). It can be frustrating, but it's also a gift. I've learned to appreciate him for who he is and not get caught up in who he isn't.

[Mom22ns]

Mytwoblessings - You are supposed to tell me he'll grow out of it! I am almost always in the same room as Ds. Even if I am working with the other kids, I will look at him and remind him to do the next problem pretty constantly.

 

sbgrace - :grouphug: to you. I hope you have a good day tomorrow.

 

I'll tell you he might grow out of it, at least somewhat :). My ds was just like that. Being in the room was no where near enough. Sitting beside him was critical. A page with 60 problems would just never have happened. Have you tried dividing the problems up so there are fewer on a page or folding the paper so it only shows 10 at a time? Dividing the lesson into manageable chunks was critical for ds. If there was too much to do, he was overwhelmed and couldn't do any of it. For fact practice we used flash cards a lot. I would time him and he would try to beat his best time. It was a game and he did get fast! Even when he could do 50 flash cards in a minute a page with the same 50 problems on it would have taken an hour though. He focused on all 60 instead of 1 at a time.

 

I will give you a bit of encouragement. That same ds is now approaching 16. He can work for hours on his own and accomplish anything he wants to. He can still be incredibly slow, but he works hard and when he sets his mind to something he gets it done. He has far more determination and work ethic than my child who has always done school easily and fast. We've always had a great relationship too, but he was hard to focus and hard to teach because of the need for my constant attention. Now, we have a great relationship and he is a joy to teach. Hang in there!

:grouphug:

[Mom22ns]

I've seen so many double posts on these new boards. Now I feel like I'm truly a part of the group.

[wapiti]

I *definitely* understand the frustration!!!

 

Edited January 12, 2016 by wapiti

[Meriwether]

 

 

Timez Attack also worked well for her (but not for the computer, which was too old to handle the game).

 

 

 

I'd seen this mentioned before, but I had never looked into it. I downloaded it this morning. Ds was the first of the bigger kids awake, and I let him do a trial run. The look on his face when he did the pretest was priceless. The first problem was something easy like 3 x 4. He thought - and thought- and finally started to type in the answer when the problem disappeared. He was shocked. "What! It is timed!" No meltdowns. No whining. He didn't do so hot on the pretest. Those problems kept disappearing before he could type in the answer. :laugh: It was great because he didn't get upset at himself; he became determined to conquer that game. We did Bible after breakfast so we didn't start math until after 9:30. He was done by 10:20 so that he could do Timez Attack. I let him play too long, an hour, so math still took forever today, but it was productive time. He wasn't staring off into space. And I was free to help Ds6 with his school during most of that so he got more done today than he usually does. I'll limit Timez Attack to 15-20 minutes next time.

[Meriwether]

 

 

p.s. I don't think 64 problems is too much if they are all on one sheet and are basic 2x2 or 7x8 problems. My dd had to do 100 of those types of problems, say all 2x, in 2 minutes in the third grade to be able to advance to the next times table (3x). She hated the timer, so I made her do 5 timed tests per day at home to desensitize her to the timer. We still go back to "practicing" timed tests when she knows she will have a limited amount of time for testing. Hope that helps!

 

 

I remember timed tests having 100 problems when I was in first grade. We did multiplication in 2nd. I'm okay with it taking him more than a couple of minutes, because he really is slow in everything. I do want to get him better at focusing. If he could focus enough to do the problems in under 10 minutes, I think he would naturally get faster as he gained experience.

[Meriwether]

Oh man, I haven't read all the replies but it is uncanny, you just described my 5 year old to a T. He even does the banging head, an hour to eat breakfast, off with the fairies. He is a born pessimist, and needs to be dragged through everything. My dh gives me lots of insight, he was the same. He says that there's just too much information to process that he's off in his own head all the time.

 

Ds is a lot like my Dh, too. You'd think that Dh would be able to give me some insight. Instead, he's like, "Why is he so slow and crabby." :laugh:

[Meriwether]

I would try letting him just to odd or even if he focuses. If he loses focus, then he has to do them all. My daughter does better if she does less problems with focus than more problems distracted. I even cut down her Singapore at times, and it has less problems than Saxon in general. (I used to cut down her old math even more, it had far too many problems for her. Singapore is a much better fit.)

 

 

You're not the only one to suggest this, so this is a general response to everyone who thinks it is too much or the wrong program. If he can focus for the first half, he can focus for the whole lesson. If he is having trouble focusing, 5 problems can take over an hour. I could not possibly make a meaningful math lesson short enough to guarantee his focused attention. I may decide to change programs for him at some point, but I can't let his focusing issue be my main consideration.

[Meriwether]

 

But for us praise is the best motivator. .... I find that it makes a big difference in his attitude toward schoolwork and his ability to focus.

 

 

I do talk Ds up a lot.

 

I recommend this de-sensitization because he will run into timed things his entire life.

(2.5 hours is VERY long for math at that age, isn't it?)

 

I do think it is a good idea to get him used to being timed. Maybe we'll do non-school things first. How high a tower can you built in one minute? And, yes, 2.5 hours is a long time for everyone involved. His math should take him 1 - 1.5 hours. That is still long for some people, but I'm okay with that.

 

 

Also, they rarely sit in chairs anymore. I have two of the big inflatable exercise balls.

 

 

 

Ds has an exercise ball that he can use if he wants to. He sometimes chooses to use it but usually uses a chair.

 

Then I stop to take a breath and he interrupts me with something like, "Do you believe that God made any other people besides humans?" His mind is just always somewhere else, somewhere deeper and more interesting, than MATH.

 

So I gave him my phone, set the timer for 30 minutes, and told him he was done when the timer went off, regardless of how much he had completed. Surprisingly, he liked this idea and completed the entire lesson with 4 minutes to spare. We have employed it often since, because it is helpful for him to know that he won't be sitting there forever and it motivates him to maintain focus and get the work done.

 

For the record, my son also has processing and attention issues. We are learning to cope with those things, but he'll always be a deep thinker and operate differently than my daughter (and me!). It can be frustrating, but it's also a gift. I've learned to appreciate him for who he is and not get caught up in who he isn't.

 

 

The first is very much my son. I've thought about doing something like the second, but I could see him doing absolutely nothing in that time. The third is the kicker for me. He is capable of focusing on his schoolwork and getting it done. He will never be as fast as Dd9, and I am okay with that. He is capable of being much faster than he is, though, so I wonder how to help him, how much he will grow out of naturally, and how much is just who he is.

[Meriwether]

I know there are people I've missed responding to. I appreciate everyone's input. It was comforting to hear about other kids like Ds. It was also helpful to read different points of view. I thought about every response. Even if it seemed like I dismissed some advice, I've added your thoughts to my view of the situation. As Ds and I continue to work this out, I will remember and reconsider things that people have mentioned.

[FairProspects]

That is too many problems for someone with a slow processing speed. Ds would freak. If he already gets the concept, work on memorization of facts at one time and move on with concepts, but I would never give ds 64 problems at once. We typically only do 4 problems a day and even that can get long. These slow, deep thinkers need their time to think and process!

[Guest]

:grouphug: Aw! I am so sorry you are so frustrated. My oldest is like this and all who said it is exhausting are right! My dd is sitting here eating dinner while he finishes his chores because he didn't do them when I said. We had an episode like yours earlier when I told him to wash his hair and get out of the bath. Sigh. He doesn't do timers, either. Sometimes with the fact sheets, it's a "do the sheet now or you will be timed." He doesn't like that. We do Saxon, as well, it works very well for both me as a teacher and him as a student. What has worked best for us for math, is that he prefers to do things in "his" order. When he starts to dawdle, or pick at his finger nails, or stare at the bird three houses down, I tell him he needs to get to work or he will do his work in the order that *I* say. That has been huge in getting him to do his math. Granted, he enjoys math, and it's not as big as a problem as some other things. But, taking away his choice in matters really makes a difference. He likes to be in charge. I don't know if you and your son would identify with that, at all. AND, as everyone else has said, it is imperative that I sit with him at all times. Sometimes, I will tell him, "you have me for 10 minutes. I will sit here at the table with you for that amount of time. After that, I have stuff to do and you will be by yourself." (I have to be willing to let him sit at the table until lunch time if I offer that ultimatum, though...) That will sometimes spur him on. Luckily, my dd is an introvert and prefers to play in her room by herself for hours on end. I don't know what I'd do if they both were like that.

[mysteeqz5]

My ds11 is exactly like this and it tests me everyday. He takes forever to get started but when he does it usually goes pretty well except for math. I was giving him screen time at the end of the day based on if he completed all his work, however, we ran into math issues. We started fractions which is tricky for him, there were several meltdowns and yelling from me and him. So I decided that he needed extra motivation just for math, so he gets 10 minutes right after math to use the computer. He uses to look at lego star wars. I now have to sit right next to him and to encourage him along. He just has it in his head that he can't do it, but after we work through it together, he gets it pretty quickly. I just can't leave him to do math alone which is what I've expected before. Things are so much better now, which is only 2 weeks, so I'm right there with you with your frustrations.

 

:grouphug: to you because I know that sometimes I need them too.

[fraidycat]

I love the exercise ball idea. Do you have a link for what yours look like? Do they come in various sizes? My kids are on the smaller side (so am I).

 

I just have the ones that you can get in the sports equipment area at Target or Walmart. Mine are the 65 cm ones. I wouldn't go any smaller than that because they'd not be able to write at the table if they sat much lower, unless their work area is lower than normal table height.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Sunny-Health-Fitness-Anti-Burst-Ball/dp/B0016BQG50/ref=sr_1_8?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1354326221&sr=1-8&keywords=65+cm+exercise+ball

[Melissa in Australia]

I don't really do fact sheets. We do a lot of that practice through games, flash cards, out loud, etc. It's the same story here. I also cut way down on the number of problems. I'd rather have my kids focus on a few more challenging problems than be all over the place with a huge sheet of the same problems over and over again. Sometimes I feel guilty because surely in public school they'd be stuck with huge sheets of boring problems. But I remind myself I homeschool so I can do what works for them.

 

The focus thing may improve as he gets older. My 10 year old is getting better. Although he still has his days. I've used timers in the past with him and he likes that. I tried that with the 7 year old and it totally freaked him out so that didn't work for him.

 

Rewards work well around here too. Also, listing out what you want done for the day helps. Mine like to know exactly when it'll be over. I let my kids take breaks as needed.

 

They don't do facts sheets or huge pages of boring problems at all in primary schools here. They do a few problems a day, plus many math games and a computer based program like mathaletics.

[kathy_overman]

You are SO not alone. My son uses the exact same words about being stupid, etc.

 

My DS almost always takes 1 - 3 hours dawdling on math, and it is the one thing that really gets me. I have tried every 'trick' under the sun. The only thing that I have found that works, is to lovinginly remind him to 'keep going', and to make sure I don't engage too much with him.

 

The more I ignore him, the better he does. After yesterday's 2.5 hours on Math, and me remaining 'zen like', today he took a record 45 minutes.

 

I am working on changing me, and trying to not get anxious when he stalls. I quickly start to think, if this takes 3 hours, then we will never get done, the day will drag on forever, etc. If I don't go there, then I find I can remain peaceful and gently nudge him without getting myself worked up.

 

Oh, the joys of boys!! :glare:

[renmew]

I haven't had time to read all the responses, but I can tell you what I do in my classroom of 7-8 year olds.

 

The first thing, though, is you said he can finish it in under 3 minutes, right? If so, I would say he has mastered those facts and should only have to complete the worksheet once every week or two as maintenance. Give him half the page and half the time. If he completes that half successfully, then he's done. If not, he gets to do both sets.

 

If he still needs the practice to memorize them, keep a bar graph for him to chart his results. Look for improvement in the set time, instead of focusing on how many he didn't get to. Every time his number goes up he gets an immediate, but short (like 10-15 minute) fun break. This method really took the pressure of my kids who were failing my timed tests and were making it worse stressing out so much.

 

At home I have a 9 year old just like your son. He drives me crazy, and takes forever to do his homework, if he finishes it at all. We get the defeatist statements as well. We also yell a lot.

[zenjenn]

Incentives!

 

I periodically encounter this with my daughter - she can literally just SIT there day-dreaming leaving me to think she's quietly doing her math - only to come and find nothing is done. Or there are doodles all over the margins of her paper.

 

Then the excuses start - how she can't help it, etc etc.

 

But then I offer an incentive - do your work in x amount of time, and you will receive y. It's amazing how suddenly she CAN do her math assignment!

 

This happened recently. The past few days she had lapsed into taking ever-increasing amounts of time on her math and I knew it was time to reign her back in. Her grandmother had sent a belated birthday gift she was looking forward to, and the package came the night prior. So I said, "If you can finish today's math assignment by the time I finish baking these muffins, you can open your birthday present. If you can't - I will be holding onto it for a while longer."

 

Funny how that math assignment got done, accuracy and efficiently - in about 30 minutes. :rolleyes:

 

After the incentive is delivered and enjoyed - a talk "You've proven to me today that you're perfectly capable of getting this work done in a timely manner. Today, you were rewarded, but in the future, you may not like the consequences of messing around. I expect you to do what you are capable of."

 

I know every kid is different - this has ALWAYS worked for me, with the caveat that it is understood people lapse back into poor habits. Every few months, lather, rinse, repeat. But I'm OK with that. We all have our weaknesses and need reminders.

[Punks in Ontario]

Can you challenge him with a timer and a "I bet you can't do this?" (In a teasing way - they know that I really do think they can do it.) Both my kids respond to that.

 

This is what we do. If it takes more than 10 minutes, we count how many problems were done. If they're faster than 10, then we count the time. We keep a record of times and if they get a "record", they get a small reward (sticker/candy). It works quite well at reinforcing diligence.

[MeghanL]

My 8-year-old also hates timers...that is until I accidentally stumbled upon the right way to use them (for him!). We absolutely *had* to leave by a certain time and math still wasn't done. So I told him that I was going to set the timer for 20 minutes, he was to do as much as he could in that time and they whether he was finished or not we would put math away until the next day. This seemed to work. Usually I would say "You have 20 minutes and when the timer goes off if it's not done you don't get x". That would cause him so much anxiety that he wouldn't get done in time that was all he could think about. Since he had a definite start time, end time and no expectation of perfection, that seemed to help so much more. It might be worth a try.