Denisemomof4 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I started to read the responses to the thread about the punks bullying the elderly bus monitor. I am not pointing fingers at anyone but I think it is important to understand that it truly is NOT always the parents fault. I have witnessed this first hand with two very close and loving friends. Both are awesome moms, spent a TON of time with their kids (one is a homeschool mom) and both were heavy on nurture and disciplined appropriately. I also have a kid who is disrespectful, selfish, and has been problematic in school, one I could see doing that. It has NOTHING to do with the parenting. Sometimes bullies were bullied themselves at school, bullied at home, bully to be cool. Sometimes parents truly can NOT do anything to help because the kid has a mental illness. Sometimes they are plain old defiant. It is not always the parent. I have to say that I have met more good parents than not in my life. I have most definitely met bad parents, and even parents who would look at that video and do nothing. Sometimes I just get tired of the finger pointing, especially while dealing with mentally ill kids who will do as they please no matter what we parents say or do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 It is the whole nature/nurture argument. I don't want to admit that there are that many bad seeds out there so most of the time it has to be someone's fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Totally agree. Sometimes it just takes one child with actual issues to draw in other kids. There were 2 kids with extreme behavoiral issues in my son's first grade class and it brought down the behavior of the whole class. Kids that were delightful one on one for a play date were awful in a group setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 Mentally ill children do not ride the regular bus; they have their own busses with their own 1:1 aide. Unclassified children that need to be that foul mouthed and issue put-downs do, imho, have issues that need counseling. Many parents won't see that the issues are resolved. Mentally ill children ride the regular bus all the time. And I do agree that those kids need counseling. They need more than that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I for one do not believe that the problems on the bus are due to the parents of the children involved, but from a dangerous "group think" that happens when lightly supervised children sense weakness. My older dd was bullied by two girls who had wonderful involved parents, but their bad behavior was almost out of their own control when they were with a large group of other girls their own age. My opinion, FWIW, it that kids need a lot of supervision to make good decisions and even then there may be circumstances where some kids do not have the wiring to treat others as equals. It is not all about the parents, although kids do need good parents, parents are only part of the equation, and some people require supervision their whole life. My older dd witnessed a student bullying a teacher in her sophomore year of high school. The teacher's dd had committed suicide over the summer and a group of girls was tormenting her over it. The teacher apologized to the girls for getting upset the next day. My dd was scarred over it, honestly, this group behavior is a big part of why my younger two never will attend ps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeslieAnneLevine Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Mentally ill children ride the regular bus all the time. Absolutely. Some who have been diagnosed, some not. I for one do not believe that the problems on the bus are due to the parents of the children involved, but from a dangerous "group think" that happens when lightly supervised children sense weakness. My older dd was bullied by two girls who had wonderful involved parents, but their bad behavior was almost out of their own control when they were with a large group of other girls their own age. :iagree: I've always thought it was crazy to have a bus full of kids with no one to supervise. eta: and by someone to supervise I don't mean the driver or an elderly bus monitor who has no back-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa R. Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Well, I think it is fine to blame the parents here because that is most likely the cause. Could there be some undiagnosed mental illness that caused one or more of the boys to torment the bus aide? Possibly. But the adage, "hard cases make bad law" comes to mind. Yes, these boys could be the exception. Yes, it is possible that they have great parents who are attentive, caring, and responsive. It is possible that there is mental illness here that has not been caught before. It is possible that there is just one really bad kid with really bad parents, and he has been incredibly persuasive and controlling and caused other kids to follow his bullying. But is is unlikely. I don't think we can make *any* excuses here given that there is a small possibility of an exception somewhere. Here's another way to look at it: If these kids really can't control the impulses they displayed on the video, then they do not belong with the general population of students. Then, there would be further failure on the part of the parents and the school to allow these kids loose with other students and untrained adult school staff. Either way, I blame the parents, the school, and (probably) the kids. To suggest that maybe these parents really don't share any blame here for their parenting choices is not really fair. I'm glad this video is getting such publicity. Hopefully it has opened the eyes of other clueless parents as to what goes on in some schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 I'd appreciate it if you could name some school districts that use this procedure so I can pass this info on to the administrators here.We'd like to do some cost cutting. Mentally ill children are classified here and get their own bus with their own aide. Some of the routes are $100K each child for the regular school year. I'm sorry but I can't do that because it is the district where I live. Not only do mentally ill kids ride buses, none of them have iades on buses. The mentally ill kids I know in two different districts have no aides at all. I am sure not all parents notify schools when their mentally ill kid is diagnosed. I know that the people I know (we are talking six kids I can think of right off the top of my head) with mentally ill kids HAVE told the schools. All rode buses, none had aides. I think mentally ill kids who are acting out SHOULD have an aide, but of course we would have to have the money for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 Well, I think it is fine to blame the parents here because that is most likely the cause. Could there be some undiagnosed mental illness that caused one or more of the boys to torment the bus aide? Possibly. But the adage, "hard cases make bad law" comes to mind. Yes, these boys could be the exception. Yes, it is possible that they have great parents who are attentive, caring, and responsive. It is possible that there is mental illness here that has not been caught before. It is possible that there is just one really bad kid with really bad parents, and he has been incredibly persuasive and controlling and caused other kids to follow his bullying. But is is unlikely. I don't think we can make *any* excuses here given that there is a small possibility of an exception somewhere. Here's another way to look at it: If these kids really can't control the impulses they displayed on the video, then they do not belong with the general population of students. Then, there would be further failure on the part of the parents and the school to allow these kids loose with other students and untrained adult school staff. Either way, I blame the parents, the school, and (probably) the kids. To suggest that maybe these parents really don't share any blame here for their parenting choices is not really fair. I'm glad this video is getting such publicity. Hopefully it has opened the eyes of other clueless parents as to what goes on in some schools. And to blame the parents without knowing them or how they parent is also unfair. It is also all too often the first thing that happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jujsky Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 You are right, Denise. It's not always bad parenting, though I have met bullies who had bully parents. The girl who was bullying DD at dance has the most wonderful mom and the sweetest oldest sister. I don't know why she is the way she is, but from what I can see from the skewed perspective of an outsider looking in, there is nothing going on with her family that should be causing this behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Many bullies have their parents snowed as well. They may be perfect angels in their presence. So, I agree Denise, you can't jump to the parent thing. I think peer pressure play a huge role. With a child, I can see the join the bully or be bullied mentality. The bullying of an adult is a different beast, but not automatically bad parenting. Busy parenting could play a role. What about working families that rarely see their kids except to tell them to finish their homework, eat, and go to bed? I think as homeschoolers many of us forget that some families don't have the luxury of quality character building time with their children. Not ideal and from my experience nothing like junior high/middle school exacerbates the Lord of the Flies mentality anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegP Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I think the kids who bullied that grandmother are not socialized...and that since schools are failing to properly socialize kids, all kids should be homeschooled. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova147 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I think the kids who bullied that grandmother are not socialized...and that since schools are failing to properly socialize kids, all kids should be homeschooled. :D :iagree::D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Well, I think it is fine to blame the parents here because that is most likely the cause. Could there be some undiagnosed mental illness that caused one or more of the boys to torment the bus aide? Possibly. But the adage, "hard cases make bad law" comes to mind. Yes, these boys could be the exception. Yes, it is possible that they have great parents who are attentive, caring, and responsive. It is possible that there is mental illness here that has not been caught before. It is possible that there is just one really bad kid with really bad parents, and he has been incredibly persuasive and controlling and caused other kids to follow his bullying. But is is unlikely. I don't think we can make *any* excuses here given that there is a small possibility of an exception somewhere. Here's another way to look at it: If these kids really can't control the impulses they displayed on the video, then they do not belong with the general population of students. Then, there would be further failure on the part of the parents and the school to allow these kids loose with other students and untrained adult school staff. Either way, I blame the parents, the school, and (probably) the kids. To suggest that maybe these parents really don't share any blame here for their parenting choices is not really fair. I'm glad this video is getting such publicity. Hopefully it has opened the eyes of other clueless parents as to what goes on in some schools. I think it is far far more unlikely that all the kids involved in that incident had bad parents. Group behavior that goes well outside what individuals would do is a well documented phenomena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarreymere Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) So true. I have one daughter who has a mental illness and is very manipulative. She was often violent toward others. It seemed that most of the people I had to deal with because of her just assumed that she was the way she was because of me.....I was even lectured in the court room by a judge who told me that I needed to set a better example for her! Um, this girl has nine siblings who have never been in trouble and were perfectly normal......where were they getting their examples from? I can also say that the 'system' such as it is for separating kids like my daughter from influencing and bullying other kids is broken, the threat that kids like her pose to other children is underestimated, and there is very little actual treatment (or consequences) for these kids and almost zero support and education for the parents. Edited June 21, 2012 by Rainefox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarreymere Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Mentally ill children do not ride the regular bus; they have their own busses with their own 1:1 aide. Unclassified children that need to be that foul mouthed and issue put-downs do, imho, have issues that need counseling. Many parents won't see that the issues are resolved. You are not well-informed. My daughter, diagnosed with conduct disorder and oppositional defiant disorder, never rode a special bus or had a 1:1 aide. My daughter was charged at the age of fourteen with felony witness intimidation, and later was revealed as the 'muscle' behind a teen heroin ring. She is now an adult and has 'graduated' to the diagnosis of sociopath. Budding teen sociopaths don't rate 1:1 aides and special busses, but you don't want your kids riding with them, believe me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Mentally ill children do not ride the regular bus; they have their own busses with their own 1:1 aide. Unclassified children that need to be that foul mouthed and issue put-downs do, imho, have issues that need counseling. Many parents won't see that the issues are resolved. I'd appreciate it if you could name some school districts that use this procedure so I can pass this info on to the administrators here.We'd like to do some cost cutting. Mentally ill children are classified here and get their own bus with their own aide. Some of the routes are $100K each child for the regular school year. Jefferson Parish Public Schools. Kids who are deemed unable to ride the regular school bus for any reason are grouped together on the "short bus." That might include physically disabled, severely mentally challenged, severely autistic, and emotionally disordered (mentally ill). There is a bus driver and an aide (for the bus, not for each child). I have never, ever seen or heard of a local student with a dedicated bus aide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarreymere Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) I'd appreciate it if you could name some school districts that use this procedure so I can pass this info on to the administrators here.We'd like to do some cost cutting. Mentally ill children are classified here and get their own bus with their own aide. Some of the routes are $100K each child for the regular school year. We are in Pennsylvania in the Crawford Central School District. You are welcome to contact them, I'll get you the phone number. Children here who are mentally ill with a clearly documented violent history like my daughter (she tried to beat another girl's face in with a brick, in the felony incident, to intimidate her into not testifying in a criminal trial) do not rate any special concern from the school district.....regular classes, no aide, no special bus. Kids like my daughter sit in classes with all the other kids, ride the same bus, everything. I pulled her out to homeschool her on my own initiative (she was violent at home as well) and was criticized by the school district for doing that......they wanted her in class. Edited June 21, 2012 by Rainefox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthwestMom Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I'd appreciate it if you could name some school districts that use this procedure so I can pass this info on to the administrators here.We'd like to do some cost cutting. Mentally ill children are classified here and get their own bus with their own aide. Some of the routes are $100K each child for the regular school year. So, if we could pass on how this works to your administrators, you'd like to implement it in your own district in order to save some cash? Because, in your opinion, having children with poor social skills on a bus worked so well in Greece, NY? SOME mentally ill children ride a bus with a one-to-one aide. Not all. Probably not even half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I can't agree with you. You know what I have posted about my ds13. His behaviour is not my fault BUT if I was to put him on a school bus, and he acted in this way I would take responsibility for allowing him to be out in the general public. Yes good parents can have horrid kids due to mental issues etc. I live it daily. But it is my job as his mother while he is still a minor to ensure he is not in situations that would cause that behaviour to come out. DS13 would not be placed on a bus daily because I could not trust his behaviour on the bus. In the end yes the children are responsible for their own behaviour, and no it may not be directly be due to bad parenting. BUT it is the parent's responsibility to either prevent their mentally ill children from harming others. If they do not have mental illness and they are just punks it is still the parent's responsibility to protect others from them. Given the severity of the behaviour of these kids this was not the first offense. Which means somewhere along the lines the parents knew either their kid had issues, or the kid was a bully/jerk. Either way they did not do enough to ensure the behaviour was not affecting others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarreymere Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Jefferson Parish Public Schools. Kids who are deemed unable to ride the regular school bus for any reason are grouped together on the "short bus." That might include physically disabled, severely mentally challenged, severely autistic, and emotionally disordered (mentally ill). There is a bus driver and an aide (for the bus, not for each child). I have never, ever seen or heard of a local student with a dedicated bus aide. Would you want my intellectually gifted, violently inclined budding sociopath on a bus with kids like that? Do you know what a sociopath IS? The kids on this bus are the kind of kids who are most in need of protection from kids like my daughter. It would be especially foolish to deliberately put a calculatedly violent child on a bus with kids like that. My daughter didn't act out because she couldn't control her impulses, she acted out because she enjoyed it. She hurt others because she liked it. She was able to control her behaviors to minimize the risk of being caught. Of all possible responses from the school district, putting a kid like her on a bus like that is one I would have never even imagined in my worst nightmares. The solution is that once kids like mine are identified, they need to be removed from the mainstream and intensively treated for the long term, and there is no provision for that, no place where that is done unless the family is very, very wealthy. I'm not saying that the kids on the bus in the news are all sociopaths, but it seems to me that there is a strong possibility that those kids were strongly influenced by peer who is likely heading in that direction. Edited June 21, 2012 by Rainefox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I started to read the responses to the thread about the punks bullying the elderly bus monitor. I am not pointing fingers at anyone but I think it is important to understand that it truly is NOT always the parents fault. I have witnessed this first hand with two very close and loving friends. Both are awesome moms, spent a TON of time with their kids (one is a homeschool mom) and both were heavy on nurture and disciplined appropriately. I also have a kid who is disrespectful, selfish, and has been problematic in school, one I could see doing that. It has NOTHING to do with the parenting. Sometimes bullies were bullied themselves at school, bullied at home, bully to be cool. Sometimes parents truly can NOT do anything to help because the kid has a mental illness. Sometimes they are plain old defiant. It is not always the parent. I have to say that I have met more good parents than not in my life. I have most definitely met bad parents, and even parents who would look at that video and do nothing. Sometimes I just get tired of the finger pointing, especially while dealing with mentally ill kids who will do as they please no matter what we parents say or do. I think my kid's failings are my fault. Surely I did something very wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I'd appreciate it if you could name some school districts that use this procedure so I can pass this info on to the administrators here.We'd like to do some cost cutting. Mentally ill children are classified here and get their own bus with their own aide. Some of the routes are $100K each child for the regular school year. Our district also allowed children with various diagnoses to ride the bus with the other children unless there were clear behavioral reasons not to allow it. The only reason this is no longer in effect is that there is no longer bus service *except* for children whose IEPs call for transportation (or children who live miles from the school, so I suppose there may still be students on IEPs who ride). Not sure why knowing the names of other districts would be helpful to your administrators anyway. :confused: Special education law says that kids get the services they need, not that all children with mental illness must have separate transportation. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 So true. I have one daughter who has a mental illness and is very manipulative. She was often violent toward others. It seemed that most of the people I had to deal with because of her just assumed that she was the way she was because of me.....I was even lectured in the court room by a judge who told me that I needed to set a better example for her! Um, this girl has nine siblings who have never been in trouble and were perfectly normal......where were they getting their examples from? I can also say that the 'system' such as it is for separating kids like my daughter from influencing and bullying other kids is broken, the threat that kids like her pose to other children is underestimated, and there is very little actual treatment (or consequences) for these kids and almost zero support and education for the parents. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: i am sorry things are difficult for you. Unfortunately, I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Dup Edited June 21, 2012 by Denisemomof4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 We are in Pennsylvania in the Crawford Central School District. You are welcome to contact them, I'll get you the phone number. Children here who are mentally ill with a clearly documented violent history like my daughter (she tried to beat another girl's face in with a brick, in the felony incident, to intimidate her into not testifying in a criminal trial) do not rate any special concern from the school district.....regular classes, no aide, no special bus. Kids like my daughter sit in classes with all the other kids, ride the same bus, everything. I pulled her out to homeschool her on my own initiative (she was violent at home as well) and was criticized by the school district for doing that......they wanted her in class. How awful. And what REALLY sucks is that there is no help out there for the parents. If they can't control the child, they can get child neglect charges pressed, which endangers. The safety and well being of the other kids in the house. I am so sorry you had to live with that fear. :iagree: one of the kids who regularly rode the bus had so many problems. A year back, or so, I was wondering why helicopters were circling around our area for hours. Then I heard he had escapec the juvenile detention center and it was police looking for hi,. Another diagnosed kid rode school buses regularly but was finally expelled when during a rage in the principal's office, he vandalized the entire office horribly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 I can't agree with you. You know what I have posted about my ds13. His behaviour is not my fault BUT if I was to put him on a school bus, and he acted in this way I would take responsibility for allowing him to be out in the general public. Yes good parents can have horrid kids due to mental issues etc. I live it daily. But it is my job as his mother while he is still a minor to ensure he is not in situations that would cause that behaviour to come out. DS13 would not be placed on a bus daily because I could not trust his behaviour on the bus. In the end yes the children are responsible for their own behaviour, and no it may not be directly be due to bad parenting. BUT it is the parent's responsibility to either prevent their mentally ill children from harming others. If they do not have mental illness and they are just punks it is still the parent's responsibility to protect others from them. Given the severity of the behaviour of these kids this was not the first offense. Which means somewhere along the lines the parents knew either their kid had issues, or the kid was a bully/jerk. Either way they did not do enough to ensure the behaviour was not affecting others. So what is a parent to do if they can't homeschool their child? Getting them to and from school would be the easy part. Having a child in school is the law, unless you home educate, so therefore most parents of mentally ill children certainly can't be held responsible, or worse yet - JUDGED, for having their child in school. Take the bus out of it. If you had to work during school hours to pay for your kids (I am thinking of my good friend who is a nurse and was a single mom for many, many years. She had to be home when her kid was so she worked during the day.) what woukd you do if your kid behavec in the manner these punks did? Or what about Rainfox? Violence in a sociopath. I would most certainly have a kid like that in school. There IS no help for sociopaths. It's ok.... I still like you. I will just agree to disagree.:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 I think my kid's failings are my fault. Surely I did something very wrong. Really? I know where I have failed. I also know that I haven't been the cause of most of my kid's failings. I can't even begin to imagine a parent blaming themselves for all their kid's shortcomings. I think it is very safe to assume that not ALL of your kid's failings are your fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 I agree. And as much as I feel like homeschool is normal and everyday, it isn't on a lot of people's radar at all. Some people don't even realize it's an option. I don't know about you but I know MANY people who say they coukd never do it. With a bunch of them, I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauranc Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I for one do not believe that the problems on the bus are due to the parents of the children involved, but from a dangerous "group think" that happens when lightly supervised children sense weakness. My older dd was bullied by two girls who had wonderful involved parents, but their bad behavior was almost out of their own control when they were with a large group of other girls their own age. My opinion, FWIW, it that kids need a lot of supervision to make good decisions and even then there may be circumstances where some kids do not have the wiring to treat others as equals. It is not all about the parents, although kids do need good parents, parents are only part of the equation, and some people require supervision their whole life. :iagree: This is probably the smartest thing I've read about this-- and I'm not just saying that because I had been thinking the same thing :001_smile: Bolding is mine--- but this is absolutely how I feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeBeaks Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Or what about Rainfox? Violence in a sociopath. I would most certainly have a kid like that in school. There IS no help for sociopaths. It's ok.... I still like you. I will just agree to disagree.:001_smile: Our psychiatrist recommended these books for sociopathic understanding for parents: Before It's Too Late by Samenow Inside the Criminal Mind by Stanton E Samenow PhD There are others who say he is wrong, but many who say he is right too in his research. Just throwing that out there if there are lurkers or whoever could benefit from especially the first book, which is directed specifically at parents of kids displaying sociopathic tendencies. My son is still an unknown with regard to his diagnoses, and does display some sociopathic tendencies, but very thankfully not the majority of them and does not seem to be leaning more towards it as he grows. And, with regard to the buses, no, my son did not qualify for special bus, special aid or anything else in the PS system. We use a charter, and he has been evaluated. He has been in programs in a psychiatric adolescent facility, and our psychiatrist strongly recommended a 1:1 aide if he went to the classroom. The school system blew him off. My son is homeschooled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Sometimes bullies were bullied themselves at school, bullied at home, bully to be cool. Sometimes parents truly can NOT do anything to help because the kid has a mental illness. Sometimes they are plain old defiant. It is not always the parent. I have to say that I have met more good parents than not in my life. I have most definitely met bad parents, and even parents who would look at that video and do nothing. Sometimes I just get tired of the finger pointing, especially while dealing with mentally ill kids who will do as they please no matter what we parents say or do. I agree. I think the reaction to the video on the part of the parents of those children will be most telling, and we have NO idea what that reaction might be. I can imagine things like this happening, a situation out of control, without the parents having any idea how their child is behaving, because this behavior can escalate very quickly in a group like that. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Our psychiatrist recommended these books for sociopathic understanding for parents:Before It's Too Late by Samenow Inside the Criminal Mind by Stanton E Samenow PhD There are others who say he is wrong, but many who say he is right too in his research. Just throwing that out there if there are lurkers or whoever could benefit from especially the first book, which is directed specifically at parents of kids displaying sociopathic tendencies. My son is still an unknown with regard to his diagnoses, and does display some sociopathic tendencies, but very thankfully not the majority of them and does not seem to be leaning more towards it as he grows. And, with regard to the buses, no, my son did not qualify for special bus, special aid or anything else in the PS system. We use a charter, and he has been evaluated. He has been in programs in a psychiatric adolescent facility, and our psychiatrist strongly recommended a 1:1 aide if he went to the classroom. The school system blew him off. My son is homeschooled. This is why ds continues to be homeschooled. He can be violent, he was diagnosed with conduct disorder at age 7, he has been out of control. He spent time in the children's mental health unit at the hospital. His reports from that said he needs a 1 on 1 aide in school, as well as other supports if he was to return to public school. After sitting down with the spec ed coordinator at the school board(the one that allocates the funding etc to schools and ensures that students get the help they need), we were told that ds would get zero help. He is coded strictly for behaviour with a mental illness. No aide, no supports, he would get an IEP for the few things he needs for his ADHD, otherwise nothing to ensure his success or to protect other students from him. He doesn't appear to be as severe as rainefox's dd towards other people but has enough issues going on. I don't buy the whole "single parent can't supervise their kid", I am a single parent too. I still manage to supervise my kid, when he was in ps I drove him to and from, I was in his class, I had meetings several times a week with the teacher etc. I am not saying a parent who doesn't do all that is a bad parent, I am not saying that a parent with a sociopathic kid is bad, etc I am saying that as long as that child is still a minor it is up to parents to be monitoring their kid properly, even if that means going on welfare to sit in class with your kid everyday to ensure they are not harming others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 This is why ds continues to be homeschooled. He can be violent, he was diagnosed with conduct disorder at age 7, he has been out of control. He spent time in the children's mental health unit at the hospital. His reports from that said he needs a 1 on 1 aide in school, as well as other supports if he was to return to public school. After sitting down with the spec ed coordinator at the school board(the one that allocates the funding etc to schools and ensures that students get the help they need), we were told that ds would get zero help. He is coded strictly for behaviour with a mental illness. No aide, no supports, he would get an IEP for the few things he needs for his ADHD, otherwise nothing to ensure his success or to protect other students from him. He doesn't appear to be as severe as rainefox's dd towards other people but has enough issues going on. I don't buy the whole "single parent can't supervise their kid", I am a single parent too. I still manage to supervise my kid, when he was in ps I drove him to and from, I was in his class, I had meetings several times a week with the teacher etc. I am not saying a parent who doesn't do all that is a bad parent, I am not saying that a parent with a sociopathic kid is bad, etc I am saying that as long as that child is still a minor it is up to parents to be monitoring their kid properly, even if that means going on welfare to sit in class with your kid everyday to ensure they are not harming others. Lets be realistic here. Do you really think many parents of mentally ill kids would go on welfare and BE that one on aide? That is completely unrealistic. I understand why my friend worked the hours she did. I also understand why she can't homeschool him, neither could others I know with mentally ill kids. And getting back to the reason I started this, it truly isn't always the parwnt's fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelli Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Many bullies have their parents snowed as well. They may be perfect angels in their presence. So, I agree Denise, you can't jump to the parent thing. I think peer pressure play a huge role. With a child, I can see the join the bully or be bullied mentality. The bullying of an adult is a different beast, but not automatically bad parenting. Busy parenting could play a role. What about working families that rarely see their kids except to tell them to finish their homework, eat, and go to bed? I think as homeschoolers many of us forget that some families don't have the luxury of quality character building time with their children. Not ideal and from my experience nothing like junior high/middle school exacerbates the Lord of the Flies mentality anyway. As much as I hate to admit it, this is how I was as a bully. :crying: My parents had no idea how awful I was at school and to other kids until I told them in jr. high when I had ended my bullying ways. I feel like a LOT of children are this way not just bullies. They are one child for mom and dad; totally different when with friends and subjected to peer pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova147 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I worked in a special school for behaviorally disordered (read: mentally ill) children. All of our kids were removed from public schools. Their districts paid their tuition. They all had IEPs. There was a teacher and an aide in each class and never more than 12 kids in one room. We had counselors on site. some Ida had 1:1 aides. I worked their for 3 years. Probably half of the kids that were there when I started were still there when I left. For most of them, I had little hope they would "get better". Why? For the most part because those kids had no one a home who would/could be responsible. Some parents were worn out. Some had their own mental illnesses to manage. Some seemed not to care, but I don't profess to know their issues. What I know: some really awful kids come from loving homes, but most of the ones I've met have serious home issues. Sadly, those kids with poor home environments are least likely gain much from whatever the schools do. The schools can't do everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaTanya Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I think my kid's failings are my fault. Surely I did something very wrong. Really? I used to feel the same way. I used to cry every single time the school called me to tell me about what my ds had done and to ask me to pick him up. I cried all the way to the school. I used to go into the office with tear-stained face and apologize profusely. Dh was the school counselor where ds went one year. The principal and teacher knew we'd been facing difficulties homeschooling and I could not spend every moment with ds while ignoring the other dc. They were on board with helping him. They knew we were going from dr to dr for a helpful working diagnosis. Even the principal, when looking at ds's drawings, told dh, "If we didn't know you, these would be seen as signs that your ds is abused." And they knew our whole family, including our other school-aged dc who were bright, engaging, and teacher-pleasers. It took YEARS to get a valid diagnosis. In the meantime we tried medications that made his behaviors WORSE before finding some that helped a little. No. I don't take the blame anymore. I'm thankful we had the choice to homeschool, but we went deep in debt trying to get help . . . Many times kids just fall through the cracks. :sad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) Mentally ill children do not ride the regular bus; they have their own busses with their own 1:1 aide. :confused: In all of my years as a public schoolteacher and then 2 years as a p/t Special Ed Aide (1:1) to a severely Autistic 1st grader... I have to disagree with you. I have never seen a 1:1 aide assigned for just "mental illness" -- it would bankrupt the school district for one thing. Only truly severe cases were 1:1 aides needed -- child in a wheelchair, Oppositional Defiant Disorder that the student was a danger if not supervised, daily epileptic seizures, severe developmental issues or neurological that made walking to getting to classes difficult. And many of the 1:1 did not ride the bus home. That was a different person hired by the school district to ride as a "bus monitor" for all of the handicapped students (usually a low number) on that bus. ETA: The only reason I got hired as a 1:1 aide to the little first grade Autistic student was due to a lawsuit. His parents were wealthy and hired a lawyer. I got hired. It was a very wealthy school district and the little guy was a neat kid. I loved that job. Edited June 22, 2012 by tex-mex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Many bullies have their parents snowed as well. They may be perfect angels in their presence. So, I agree Denise, you can't jump to the parent thing. I think peer pressure play a huge role. With a child, I can see the join the bully or be bullied mentality. The bullying of an adult is a different beast, but not automatically bad parenting. Busy parenting could play a role. What about working families that rarely see their kids except to tell them to finish their homework, eat, and go to bed? I think as homeschoolers many of us forget that some families don't have the luxury of quality character building time with their children. Not ideal and from my experience nothing like junior high/middle school exacerbates the Lord of the Flies mentality anyway. :iagree::iagree: I was about to say the same thing!! If a bullying situation occured in my past teaching experience in public schools, it was never the same profile. Sometimes the kid would be from a troubled home, others from a great family life, and some had their parents fooled thinking they were a perfect angel while at school they tormented students who were unpopular or different. Just like a Lord of the Flies mentality when you put kiddos in a group -- Lawd knows what they will do in a pack mentality. We can be savages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 You are not well-informed. My daughter, diagnosed with conduct disorder and oppositional defiant disorder, never rode a special bus or had a 1:1 aide. My daughter was charged at the age of fourteen with felony witness intimidation, and later was revealed as the 'muscle' behind a teen heroin ring. She is now an adult and has 'graduated' to the diagnosis of sociopath. Budding teen sociopaths don't rate 1:1 aides and special busses, but you don't want your kids riding with them, believe me. :iagree: I had to teach an 8 y.o student who was finally dx'ed with ODD and an IEP. She got the 1:1 aide and special bus escort. Her parents divorced over the issue and the poor father was on his own trying to deal with her. She truthfully was a sociopath. I later learned she as a teen was in a "last chance" County School for those expelled from public school -- one step away from Juvenile Court. Very sad. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Would you want my intellectually gifted, violently inclined budding sociopath on a bus with kids like that? Do you know what a sociopath IS? The kids on this bus are the kind of kids who are most in need of protection from kids like my daughter. It would be especially foolish to deliberately put a calculatedly violent child on a bus with kids like that. My daughter didn't act out because she couldn't control her impulses, she acted out because she enjoyed it. She hurt others because she liked it. She was able to control her behaviors to minimize the risk of being caught. Of all possible responses from the school district, putting a kid like her on a bus like that is one I would have never even imagined in my worst nightmares. Were you asking this of me, because I posted that our school district mixes a variety of kids in need on a bus with one aide? If so, then no, I was just saying the way it is in our school district, because one poster asked which districts were like that. I personally don't have a well thought out opinion on the matter, b/c all I know is that some kids certainly seem like they need a 1:1 aide, but I also know there's no way our district could pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendi Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Thank you, Denise. As someone with a son with Asperger's/ADHD/anxiety/language disorder, thank you. Wendi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 Thank you, Denise. As someone with a son with Asperger's/ADHD/anxiety/language disorder, thank you. Wendi See, this is what I mean. i remember you sharing a story once here that nearly teared me up. People with normally behaved children looking at families who have children with diagnoses, or even difficulties, simply don't get it. They can't. And most often, the parent is automatically judged. Assumptions are made that it is the parent's fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I for one do not believe that the problems on the bus are due to the parents of the children involved, but from a dangerous "group think" that happens when lightly supervised children sense weakness. My older dd was bullied by two girls who had wonderful involved parents, but their bad behavior was almost out of their own control when they were with a large group of other girls their own age. My opinion, FWIW, it that kids need a lot of supervision to make good decisions and even then there may be circumstances where some kids do not have the wiring to treat others as equals. It is not all about the parents, although kids do need good parents, parents are only part of the equation, and some people require supervision their whole life. ps. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I'd appreciate it if you could name some school districts that use this procedure so I can pass this info on to the administrators here.We'd like to do some cost cutting. Mentally ill children are classified here and get their own bus with their own aide. Some of the routes are $100K each child for the regular school year. Our school district is hurting for funds. Mental illness no longer qualifies for an aide. Only severe physical disability making it difficult to ride the bus does. Some areas of Michigan came pretty close to bankruptcy and so austerity measures abound - under austerity measures, previously required services are allowed to be cut. Many kids go undiagnosed. We have very few resources in the tri-county area. There is only 1 mental health clinic in a 60 mile radius and it does not provide pediatric services. There are only two pediatricians in that same area. So, no....not much mental health service. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmiraGulch Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I have only read about 4 pages of responses, so this may have been mentioned already, but I think it's possible that these kids are neither mentally ill, nor have bad parents, nor are just horrible kids all-around that need to be locked away. Sometimes kids, even generally "good" kids, do really awful, horrible things. Because they're kids, and their frontal cortex is not fully developed. One starts it, then the other adds on, then it's almost a game to see how far they can go. They stop thinking of the person as a person and instead see the whole situation as a game that they can't stop or they won't be "cool" anymore. Not that they're angels....far from it. People who behave the way these kids did need to be punished. But really, it doesn't mean they're mentally ill or that they have bad parents, necessarily. Case in point.....I clearly remember being in 1st grade and, for some reason, deciding it would be a good idea with my friend CJ to give another kid, one who was really our friend, a ridiculously hard time. We were mean. We called him names. We physically cornered him against a wall and were chanting at him and saying really hurtful things to him. We got caught and were put in our places immediately by a teacher. I have never felt so low in all of my life. It affected me and still does to this day. I was NOT a bad kid. I was the teacher's pet, honor student, gifted, skipped-a-grade, well-behaved, involved parents, non-manipulative, never in trouble kid, who for some reason decided to go along with the crowd and do something really out of character for me that one day. And I was only in 1st grade. Can't anyone entertain the idea that maybe these kids just did a really stupid, awful thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 The first line of moral culpability lies with the kids. I know that is radical to say nowadays, but I think our therapeutic culture of tracing everyone's sins back to their parents or to some trauma or bullying is actually part of the problem --it distances the perpetrator from his or her act. That is not at all to say that parenting--good and bad--doesn't highly influence kids. But ultimately people make their own choices. Some people have less range of choice than others--those with mental illness, those with lower IQs, victims of certain kinds of trauma, and yes, those with bad parents. However, you can choose a child in any of those categories and not all would choose __<insert bad behavior of choice>______. In a situation in which you have a pack of kids, then group social norms have strong influence and it may be the group mentality, not the parenting at all, which is where fuel is added to the fire. I'm not saying that kid or adult who commits a wrongful act shouldn't look into things inside that might be driving that act, but the fact remains that they committed the act. One of the ways in which I see this "search for the victimization or bad parenting that led to this poor behavior" come out most dangerously when someone has shot people at their school and the first reaction is for the press to pull up stories of them being bullied. That then becomes a kind of justification in people's minds for what has happened and revenge fantasies suddenly become something that might be made into reality. Yes, bullying is bad and the victims should be helped. But when a bully victim becomes a bully him/herself, then that bullying is just as wrong. Plenty of victims of bullying choose other courses of action. I don't think I'm being totally articulate here, but what I'm trying to say is hold the perps responsible. I don't mean that in a punitive way, but in a moral sense. I did it; I'm responsible. Other people may have responsibility to the kid, but if they fail the kid, the kid still has to control what s/he can control. No passing the buck. I am a huge bleeding heart, but I've seen hardcore kids turn around when they accept that truth and not before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I agree Denise. I wouldn't want my parenting examined... I'm sure we've all been less than stellar sometimes. I also wouldn't think my child would do anything horrible. They're just not like that... BUT, sometimes things happen. I'm hoping that they act respectfully, even when around others who don't. That's having honor, right? But, I don't think the lady needs $500,000 to deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkacademy Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I for one do not believe that the problems on the bus are due to the parents of the children involved, but from a dangerous "group think" that happens when lightly supervised children sense weakness. My older dd was bullied by two girls who had wonderful involved parents, but their bad behavior was almost out of their own control when they were with a large group of other girls their own age. My opinion, FWIW, it that kids need a lot of supervision to make good decisions and even then there may be circumstances where some kids do not have the wiring to treat others as equals. It is not all about the parents, although kids do need good parents, parents are only part of the equation, and some people require supervision their whole life. My older dd witnessed a student bullying a teacher in her sophomore year of high school. The teacher's dd had committed suicide over the summer and a group of girls was tormenting her over it. The teacher apologized to the girls for getting upset the next day. My dd was scarred over it, honestly, this group behavior is a big part of why my younger two never will attend ps. I think this is a dangerous thought to be truthful. What you are saying here is they have "no control" I have seen this used as a defense on court shows. No. It is just not right it is called personal responsibility and stop making exuses for your bad (not you) choices and behaviors. I as a child was never allowed these types of exuses and neither are my kids. I agree with Denise it can't be all the parents fault but this was a group of kids I find it hard to believe they all come from the greatest home esoecially as public school kids. I do know that not all ps kids have bad homes I am not saying that but from my expierence the majority of ill behaved kids don't come from the greatest places. There also comes a point again when will people as a society stop making crap exuses for behavior and just say hey you were bad your being punished. Put my daughter in a group and I can guarantee with my life she will not follow anything like this. My daughter would have been one on the bus screaming STFU I can bet my life on it. My two boys have some issues and behavior problems too but I can't see them doing this either. Giving the exuse they were following Johhny from down the road is a dangerous slippery sloap taking away personal responsibility. It is becoming the mom who blames her kids bad grades on teachers It is also alot of what is wrong in this society in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkacademy Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 The first line of moral culpability lies with the kids. I know that is radical to say nowadays, but I think our therapeutic culture of tracing everyone's sins back to their parents or to some trauma or bullying is actually part of the problem --it distances the perpetrator from his or her act. That is not at all to say that parenting--good and bad--doesn't highly influence kids. But ultimately people make their own choices. Some people have less range of choice than others--those with mental illness, those with lower IQs, victims of certain kinds of trauma, and yes, those with bad parents. However, you can choose a child in any of those categories and not all would choose __<insert bad behavior of choice>______. In a situation in which you have a pack of kids, then group social norms have strong influence and it may be the group mentality, not the parenting at all, which is where fuel is added to the fire. I'm not saying that kid or adult who commits a wrongful act shouldn't look into things inside that might be driving that act, but the fact remains that they committed the act. One of the ways in which I see this "search for the victimization or bad parenting that led to this poor behavior" come out most dangerously when someone has shot people at their school and the first reaction is for the press to pull up stories of them being bullied. That then becomes a kind of justification in people's minds for what has happened and revenge fantasies suddenly become something that might be made into reality. Yes, bullying is bad and the victims should be helped. But when a bully victim becomes a bully him/herself, then that bullying is just as wrong. Plenty of victims of bullying choose other courses of action. I don't think I'm being totally articulate here, but what I'm trying to say is hold the perps responsible. I don't mean that in a punitive way, but in a moral sense. I did it; I'm responsible. Other people may have responsibility to the kid, but if they fail the kid, the kid still has to control what s/he can control. No passing the buck. I am a huge bleeding heart, but I've seen hardcore kids turn around when they accept that truth and not before. EXACTLY :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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