Watched the IndoctriNation documentary last night...WOW!

[Princess Peach]

Perhaps. Calling yourself a christian and BEING one are sometimes two very different things.

 

Ah, and there you are, folks.

 

Maybe Time's next cover should be "Are you Christian enough"?

[Jen500]

Perhaps. Calling yourself a christian and BEING one are sometimes two very different things.

 

But now you ARE judging who is more or less Christian.

[nmoira]

Perhaps. Calling yourself a christian and BEING one are sometimes two very different things.

Well, that answers that question. Who gets to make that call? Presumably your God didn't administer the poll/study.

[Georgiana Daniels]

If a teacher were to talk about their Christian faith in a public school setting I'm pretty sure they would be opening themselves up to a lawsuit by a parent(s) and possible dismissal.

 

We had all 3 of our dc in public school for a few years. Youngest ds was there for grades 1-3 and older 2 went for high school. One of their teachers was our pastors wife, school in a conservative area, and she was not allowed to say anything about her faith. However several, and I do mean several, of the other teachers spoke out against religion in general and Christianity in particular all the time like it was accepted fact. Ridicule and demeaning comments were common. It was one of the factors in us pulling youngest ds out after 3rd grade and putting him a Christian co-op and eventually Christian school. We wanted him to have a Biblical world view and not be made to feel like an ignorant freak because he believed in the Bible. It's extremely important for young children who are just starting their walk of faith to be able to talk to all of the adults in their life, or at least most of them, about their journey, especially someone they are spending 6-7 hours a day with 5 days a week.

 

Our older two have only in the past few years realized what had happened to them in high school. The indoctrination they received there caused many problems in our family. Wanting to fit in with their peers and not be ridiculed in front of them factored in too.

 

The bolded was our experience with public high school. A child who is not well grounded in their faith CAN be swayed by this type of daily influence. Thankfully our daughter came out (relatively) unscathed, spiritually speaking, but some of those teachers showed NO SHAME in speaking against people of faith.

[Rivka]

It really resonated with me when one of the pastors said that if he sent his children into a muslim school, or a buddhist school that his congregation would probably boo him out of the pulpit, however sending your children to a pagan school is completely normal and no one questions it whatsoever.

 

The fact is, government schools are not just free of any religion, they are vehemently AGAINST christianity and the teachings we try to impart to our children. the 14,000 hours that are spent in the classroom CANNOT be undone by the one hour they spend at Sunday School and the few hours at night of Christian studies (which I'm sure most christian households do not spend hours each night doing)

 

I think the one thing that can be safely said about public schools in America is that they are very, very different from each other.

 

There may be American schools that are hotbeds of atheist rejection of Christianity, although since only 5-10% of Americans are atheists and 60-75% are Christians, it seems unlikely. But there are also many, many American public schools in which there is substantial pressure against students and teachers who are not Christian.

 

Although public schools may appear atheistic and pagan to you, actual students who are atheist and Pagan do not experience public school as a festival of dominance and acceptance. Instead, they commonly face discrimination.

 

If you cannot separate God and education, then clearly, you have to homeschool. This seems pretty blatantly obvious.

 

Do you actually think that public schools should be teaching based on your specific set of Christian beliefs? There are a lot of non-Christians in public schools, and a lot of Christians who may believe differently from you. Public schools are public, and need to cater to be accessible to everyone, not espousing one particular religious view.

 

Well said.

 

To quote John Lennon (who was talking to the other side at the time): if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

 

:lol: No one else's contributions to difficult threads are ever quite like yours, Mrs. Mungo.

[Mrs Mungo]

I would NEVER say I am "more" christian, or think someone else "less" christian...I certainly don't have any authority on that mess. 88% of christian children come out of the PS system walking away from their faith, leaving 12% that still hold those convictions. I understand that it is possible. Is that a field that I want my children to battle alone and HOPE they are among the 12%?

 

The part that I put in bold is the tricky part of that statement. Extreme fundamentalist convictions? Because saying that 88% enter as Christians and only 12% leave as Christians (of any stripe) is a lie, according to many other studies.

 

If that's the case, how is it possible that there are still so many Christians in the US? Only a couple generations in public school should have pretty much wiped out Christianity by now. :tongue_smilie: Or are we talking a very specific "Christian worldview?"

 

Exactly.

[myfunnybunch]

If you are christian, I don't understand why it is all that hard to grasp that your children, if in public schools, will NOT be receiving a biblical worldview.

 

AND if you are christian, and okay with that, I have to wonder why?

 

I am Christian, and I am certain that there are particular "biblical worldviews" to which I do not want my children exposed.

 

Cat

[Mrs Mungo]

Perhaps. Calling yourself a christian and BEING one are sometimes two very different things.

 

Got it. If we disagree with you, then we are apostates. Boom, my point is proven.

[Caitilin]

:001_wub: Mrs Mungo!

[tiffanieh]

Well, that answers that question. Who gets to make that call? Presumably your God didn't administer the poll/study.

 

You can read into whatever you want. But I personally know plenty of people who call themselves "christians" yet they do so many things contrary to what the bible teaches. Therefore the "statistic" you talked about being skewed could be because someone checks a box that they are christian, but in all essence they live a life contrary to the teachings of Christ.

 

You can call yourself a boy, yet your a girl, that doesn't make it true.

[Ellesmere]

Perhaps. Calling yourself a christian and BEING one are sometimes two very different things.

Didn't we already go through this?

Wow!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Any film highlighting Doug Phillips, Gary North, Ken Ham, et al is not going to be well received by mainstream Christians in the know. I strongly reject the ideas of "Christian Reconstructionism" and those are the ideas pushed in this film.

 

:iagree:

 

That is not the only intent of the film. The implication is clearly: let's pull our kids out until the schools go back to the way they are supposed to be, Christian!

 

Why all the talk about a lack of Christian instruction, if there is no desire for Christian instruction? Your claim does not logically follow. This film is a sort of gateway into Christian Reconstructionism, which is *unquestionably* the goal of many of those interviewed in the film and by VF, which carries it. This is why people are saying that you are not using critical thinking skills to see the intent behind this film.

 

:iagree:

 

When people lob the 'critical thinking' grenade they don't mean your brain is entirely switched off or that you are stupid. They mean that you probably haven't done the research to really understand the agendas driving these films.

 

Are you a dominionist? Do you believe in the tenets espoused by Rushdoony, Gary North, the Chalcedon Foundation, and Vision Forum? What is your definition of "the church?" What role do believers play in the second coming of Christ? What are your views on slavery? What is your kingdom vision? Are you aware that almost 100% of those telling you how to school your children are themselves public school graduates? Are you aware that the women of this patriarchal enclave who tell you that it's unbiblical and un-American for women to vote, vote for themselves while forbidding you to do the same? Are you aware that those commanding women not to work are 'allowing' their wives and daughters to work for others for pay?

 

Who are they? Do they really believe what you believe? Do you share common goals? From where did they get their ideas? How old are these ideas? How verified are their facts? How do their statistics mesh with your own personal experience? Did you go to public school? Were all of your teachers pagan? Were all of your friends godless? Did no one respect your beliefs? If you weren't persecuted as a Christian in public school, stop and think whether you really believe all Christians are persecuted (and converted to paganism) in public schools. If you weren't, what makes you so special? Are you some kind of Super Christian?

 

Or is it possible that real faith, life-changing salvation brought about the power of the Holy Spirit because of faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, is strong enough to handle a few sarcastic remarks or even greater challenges. In what environment did the first-century church need to keep a firm hold on an infant faith? An environment in which they killed people who didn't worship the emperor. God thought they could handle it, and they did.

 

When I was in school, my 9th grade honors English teacher laughed in my face and told me that Christians are stupid. I picked up my books and walked down to the office and said, "I like Mrs.____ as an English teacher, but I don't think I should have to listen while she calls Christians stupid. Could you please find out what her schedule is for saying that and I'll just skip those days?" She had tenure, I was a PITA, I don't know what happened, but she never said it again. And my faith wasn't hurt by it. I was standing up for my rights according to the school handbook, as the Apostle Paul claimed his rights as a Roman. But my faith wasn't in danger, nor was my self-esteem. I'd read Foxe's Martyrs and a rude remark from an English teacher just wasn't in the same category. If she'd said it every day I would have survived.

 

Matter of fact, my biology teacher the next year DID say it every day. People of many faiths had been trying to get rid of her for years, because she mocked all religions, but she wasn't going anywhere. I used to wonder if she was sleeping with the superintendent of the school board or something. But not one of those Christians, Muslims, or Jews of my acquaintance abandoned their religion because of that strident, hateful woman. We actually got to know each other better and have more respect for each other because we were all subjected to her hate.

 

Those so very easily toppled haven't learned much of their faith, in many cases. Have you ever taught Sunday school? In my experience, the homeschooled teens are just as ignorant of basic Christian doctrine as the public-schooled teens, if I'm generalizing, and none of them were prepared to defend their faith. All of the children need to know Whom They Have Believed. All Christians must have a personal faith in Christ. Homeschooling doesn't guarantee that. Public schooling doesn't prevent that.

 

There are Christian clubs in public schools. There are Christian students, teachers, principals, and coaches. They are not imaginary nor invisible.

 

My children are involved with people of other faiths (and no faith) in our extended family, neighborhood, community, and beyond. I would be doing them a tremendous disservice as citizens of a nation and as Christians if I taught them to fear or despise others.

 

Wow, this really tripped a trigger for me. Sorry for typing so much, but it all came out rather instantly.

 

I believe the harm caused by isolationists can equal or exceed the harm caused by those who dare to allow their kids a peep at "the world." I've seen more of the first than the second, to be totally honest, among homeschoolers.

[Jen500]

You can read into whatever you want. But I personally know plenty of people who call themselves "christians" yet they do so many things contrary to what the bible teaches. Therefore the "statistic" you talked about being skewed could be because someone checks a box that they are christian, but in all essence they live a life contrary to the teachings of Christ.

 

You can call yourself a boy, yet your a girl, that doesn't make it true.

 

You sound very judgmental, I wonder what Jesus would say.

 

I don't understand why some Christians feel the need to tear each other down.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

You can read into whatever you want. But I personally know plenty of people who call themselves "christians" yet they do so many things contrary to what the bible teaches. Therefore the "statistic" you talked about being skewed could be because someone checks a box that they are christian, but in all essence they live a life contrary to the teachings of Christ.

 

You can call yourself a boy, yet your a girl, that doesn't make it true.

 

Who made that determination in the statistics you keep citing?

Remember what I said about a lack of critical thinking skills? Yeah.

 

And FWIW, some of those in the documentary (Mr. Ham and Mr. Phillips in particular) quite often behave in what some might consider unChristian behavior. Just food for thought.

[curlylocks]

You can read into whatever you want. But I personally know plenty of people who call themselves "christians" yet they do so many things contrary to what the bible teaches. Therefore the "statistic" you talked about being skewed could be because someone checks a box that they are christian, but in all essence they live a life contrary to the teachings of Christ.

 

You can call yourself a boy, yet your a girl, that doesn't make it true.

 

:iagree: -- very true.

 

Also, I want to point out that is movie is sold in many places...including Amazon. How many of you are going to stop shopping there? (yet you pull Doug Phillips & VF into this discussion because you know it will stir the pot?)

[Parrothead]

If you are anything other than Christian, NONE of this will make sense to you. If you are christian, I don't understand why it is all that hard to grasp that your children, if in public schools, will NOT be receiving a biblical worldview.

 

AND if you are christian, and okay with that, I have to wonder why?

I'm a Christian and it only makes sense to me about half the time. I'm not familiar with all the players but I think I can follow the story line pretty well.

 

As a devout Christian I do not want to have or to teach my kiddo a biblical worldview. I'm not even exactly sure what that means as I don't do too much Christian-ese.

 

Well, ok, but I am a Christian, and what I want for my children is not a "biblical worldview," but a Christ-like world view. My goal for my children's religious education is that they live in the world, but not belong to it. Taking children out of schools because they will be in the world is foolishness, IMO, and contrary to both my personal views, and those of my Church.

:iagree:

Because not all Christians believe the Bible is the end-all be-all of Christian belief or teaching. Catholic Christians don't, Orthodox Christians don't, Episcopalian/Anglican Christians don't, etc. What you describe and wish to assign to all Christians is a very specific TYPE of Christianity, to which many not only do not subscribe, but actively object.

And again, :iagree:

Well, your children are either going to have a biblical worldview or a secular worldview...through what lens do they view the world? As a christian, wouldn't you want your children to discern, reason, and CRITICALLY THINK, through the wisdom and instruction of the Lord? That is a biblical worldview.

 

 

How do you come to such an "either/or" conclusion? There are probably as many so called worldviews as there are religions or lack there of. I'm sure there are Buddhist worldviews, Pagan worldviews, multiple and complex Christian worldviews, Jewish worldviews, etc and so forth. Not to mention Atheist, Agnostic and Deist.

 

1. Not necessarily. I want my children to discern, reason, and critically think. Truth is truth and will always stand up for itself.

 

2. I don't want them to give reasons and thoughts based on what a book says. I want them to give reasons and thoughts because they have learned the facts, weighed things carefully, and have come to a well-supported conclusion.

:iagree:

Perhaps. Calling yourself a christian and BEING one are sometimes two very different things.

Finally. Something you and I can agree on. ;)

[tiffanieh]

You know what...I am going to simply bow out of this conversation. I quite honestly feel extremely bullied, belittled, judged, and accused.

 

If I have come across in a way that makes me seem ugly, unforgiving, unloving...that is nothing of who I am, or who I want my children to grow to be. For that, please forgive me.

 

I want to raise my children to love God and to love others.

 

Have a good day.

[Rivka]

The thing is: there is NO neutral. You are either for Christ or against Him.

 

I didn't say it...Jesus did. ;)

 

I think this is what the debate is about, when it comes right down to it: this belief. And it's a belief that makes me fear for our pluralistic society.

 

If you believe this, then anything that is not outright promotion of Christianity looks like discrimination against Christianity. Laws which don't require people to conform to particular Christian standards of morality are anti-Christian laws. If there is no "neutral," then a government which doesn't elevate Christianity over other religions is actively anti-Christian.

 

It explains a lot about why so many Christians in the United States perceive themselves as a persecuted minority, when to non-Christians (or more liberal Christians), that view is utterly baffling. If anything that doesn't specifically affirm your religious beliefs is against you, then yes: you must constantly feel persecuted in a pluralistic and secular society.

[Mrs Mungo]

:iagree: -- very true.

 

Also, I want to point out that is movie is sold in many places...including Amazon. How many of you are going to stop shopping there? (yet you pull Doug Phillips & VF into this discussion because you know it will stir the pot?)

 

Was Jeff Bezos interviewed for this film? No. Was Doug Phillips? Yes. Was Ken Ham? Yes. Was Gary North (son-in-law of Rushdoony)? Yes.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'm sort of giggling here imagining my kindergartener trying to view the alphabet and addition through a biblical lens. I send my daughter to school to learn skills and content. I teach my daughter how to think critically about what she has learned.

 

LOL! Reminds me of the time I took my mother to her first homeschooling convention.

 

She'd been shocked and staggered by the speakers and workshops, because it was the first time she'd ever been told that she was a heathen for sending her own kids to ps. (5 of us, all Christians, no heathens)

 

But then we got to the Vendor Hall, and she was completely baffled by the label "Christian" on absolutely everything from puzzles to math books to pencils.

 

I knew she was cracking up when we passed a booth touting, "Christian Spelling." She said, loud enough for everyone around to hear, "What makes their spelling book Christian? Do they leave out all the cuss words that everybody else uses to teach kids how to spell?"

 

I got her out of there and we went to buy a lemonade. I wish I'd had something stronger for her. I think she had her feelings hurt by that experience, hearing all the vitriol toward 'so-called' Christians who send their kids to ps. Well, she'd done that, and up until she entered Homeschool Land she carried some honors in her church for raising five children to continue in her faith.

[curlylocks]

Was Jeff Bezos interviewed for this film? No. Was Doug Phillips? Yes. Was Ken Ham? Yes. Was Gary North (son-in-law of Rushdoony)? Yes.

 

And your point is WHAT? :confused:

[Little Nyssa]

When I was in school, my 9th grade honors English teacher laughed in my face and told me that Christians are stupid. I picked up my books and walked down to the office and said, "I like Mrs.____ as an English teacher, but I don't think I should have to listen while she calls Christians stupid. Could you please find out what her schedule is for saying that and I'll just skip those days?" She had tenure, I was a PITA, I don't know what happened, but she never said it again. And my faith wasn't hurt by it. I was standing up for my rights according to the school handbook, as the Apostle Paul claimed his rights as a Roman. But my faith wasn't in danger, nor was my self-esteem. I'd read Foxe's Martyrs and a rude remark from an English teacher just wasn't in the same category. If she'd said it every day I would have survived.

 

"Like" :001_smile:

[momma2three]

I think this is what the debate is about, when it comes right down to it: this belief. And it's a belief that makes me fear for our pluralistic society.

 

If you believe this, then anything that is not outright promotion of Christianity looks like discrimination against Christianity. Laws which don't require people to conform to particular Christian standards of morality are anti-Christian laws. If there is no "neutral," then a government which doesn't elevate Christianity over other religions is actively anti-Christian.

 

It explains a lot about why so many Christians in the United States perceive themselves as a persecuted minority, when to non-Christians (or more liberal Christians), that view is utterly baffling. If anything that doesn't specifically affirm your religious beliefs is against you, then yes: you must constantly feel persecuted in a pluralistic and secular society.

 

Very well said.

[Word Nerd]

:iagree: -- very true.

 

Also, I want to point out that is movie is sold in many places...including Amazon. How many of you are going to stop shopping there? (yet you pull Doug Phillips & VF into this discussion because you know it will stir the pot?)

 

I brought it up because it's relevant to the discussion and points to the worldview being espoused by the film.

[twoxcell]

I think the word the OP was searching for is Humanism not Paganism.;) I have not seen the documentary.

[Mrs Mungo]

And your point is WHAT? :confused:

 

It is NOT merely stirring the pot to bring up the views *of those interviewed in the film*, contrary to your assertion. Looking at the views and goals of those interviewed is utilizing critical thinking skills.

[Word Nerd]

And your point is WHAT? :confused:

 

I thought it was perfectly clear. There is a vast difference between the products that Amazon sells (pretty much everything) and the products that Vision Forum sells (products that have a distinctive worldview). Vision Forum's president is one of the featured experts in the movie, so your attempt to dismiss the connection between Phillips and the movie as merely "stirring the pot" and to cast Vision Forum as just another vendor like Amazon is spurious.

Edited May 15, 2012 by WordGirl

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I think the word the OP was searching for is Humanism not Paganism.;) I have not seen the documentary.

 

The documentary actually says "pagan" in spots.

 

The Call to Dunkirk is just...amazing. The go Godwin with Hitler footage in the first two minutes. The first pagan reference is around the 2:30 mark.

[brehon]

Tiffanieh,

 

Would you mind explaining what your belief system/denomination believes goes into a "biblical world view"? I think I know, but don't wish to assume. You've made a number of sweeping statements and broad brush generalizations. Have you realized that many of the people disagreeing with you are Christian? What does this tell you?

 

You're feeling bullied because not everyone automatically agreed with you. No one bullied or belittled you. They simply called you on what you wrote. There is a huge difference there.

[KirstenH]

You can read into whatever you want. But I personally know plenty of people who call themselves "christians" yet they do so many things contrary to what the bible teaches.

 

According to whose interpretation/hermeneutic of the Bible?

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Correct. But, that is not what those interviewed in the film want. There is lots of stuff out there about Christian Reconstructionism and Dominionism. Go read it, don't take my word for it.

 

 

 

 

:iagree: It is a great, big onion with lots of layers!! I highly suggest learning about it and comparing it to Biblical truth!! It is dangerous indoctrination, imo, because they use the twisting of scripture with the intention (from what I've seen anyway) of creating a society that is an extra-biblical utopia type situation. God doesn't call us to a utopia here on earth...he calls us to be salt and light and to love him first and others second. I'll just say that the teachings offered in this dominionism/reconstructionist viewpoint are just gussied-up idolatry.

[AdventureMoms]

Originally Posted by curlylocks

The thing is: there is NO neutral. You are either for Christ or against Him.

 

I didn't say it...Jesus did. ;)

I think this is what the debate is about, when it comes right down to it: this belief. And it's a belief that makes me fear for our pluralistic society.

 

If you believe this, then anything that is not outright promotion of Christianity looks like discrimination against Christianity. Laws which don't require people to conform to particular Christian standards of morality are anti-Christian laws. If there is no "neutral," then a government which doesn't elevate Christianity over other religions is actively anti-Christian.

 

It explains a lot about why so many Christians in the United States perceive themselves as a persecuted minority, when to non-Christians (or more liberal Christians), that view is utterly baffling. If anything that doesn't specifically affirm your religious beliefs is against you, then yes: you must constantly feel persecuted in a pluralistic and secular society.

 

:iagree:This may be the best thing I've read all day. Rivka you are awesome!

[Jennifer3141]

Not teaching religion is fine, and preferable. Being virulently opposed to and mocking Christian faith is not fine, and it does happen.

 

I'm sure it DOES happen. There are jerks of every faith and even jerks of NO faith (and sometimes I'm the former) but I just don't remember school like that. When I went to PS, the assumption was everyone was Xtian except for our one "weird" Jewish family who didn't eat school hot dogs.

 

Granted, I live in the Midwest and grew up in a town famous for starting the RCA but where are Xtians being openly (consistently) mocked by teachers?

[Dana]

I thought it was perfectly clear. There is a vast difference between the products that Amazon sells (pretty much everything) and the products that Vision Forum sells (products that have a distinctive worldview).

 

Can you picture 50 Shades of Grey on Vision Forum's site? :lol:

[shanvan]

Tiffanieh,

 

Would you mind explaining what your belief system/denomination believes goes into a "biblical world view"? I think I know, but don't wish to assume. You've made a number of sweeping statements and broad brush generalizations. Have you realized that many of the people disagreeing with you are Christian? What does this tell you?

 

You're feeling bullied because not everyone automatically agreed with you. No one bullied or belittled you. They simply called you on what you wrote. There is a huge difference there.

 

I can actually see why the OP felt bullied, and there are plenty of generalizations being made throughout the thread, not just by the OP. More than that I will not say, as I would not weigh in on this topic unless someone paid me enough to buy curriculum for Ds and pay for some online classes!

 

I have to say, that while I find the kilt photos hilarious, sometimes I think it is disrespectful to the original poster when the topic is completely dismissed with a kilt reference. Deciding it's time to post kilts & recipes is automatically passing judgement on a thread in which the OP might be addressing a subject that is serious and meaningful to them. I've had that thought on other threads too (even ones where I disagree with the OP vehemently) , though I've also enjoyed the kilts!

[Jenny in Florida]

If you are anything other than Christian, NONE of this will make sense to you.

 

Sure, because of course every other religious group is completely happy with the way its faith is handled in public schools.

[curlylocks]

I thought it was perfectly clear. There is a vast difference between the products that Amazon sells (pretty much everything) and the products that Vision Forum sells (products that have a distinctive worldview). Vision Forum's president is one of the featured experts in the movie, so your attempt to dismiss the connection between Phillips and the movie as merely "stirring the pot" and to cast Vision Forum as just another vendor like Amazon is spurious.

 

You totally missed it...

 

My point was that several people here never miss a chance to "grill" Doug Phillips and VF. (Do I necessarily agree with everything he says? No...but I don't think it is appropriate to throw this movie out just because he was interviewed and he stated his beliefs...)

 

If people are so outraged that VF would sell this movie, are they equally outraged that Amazon sells it? Are they willing to put their money where their mouth is?? ;)

[KnitWit]

Was Jeff Bezos interviewed for this film? No. Was Doug Phillips? Yes. Was Ken Ham? Yes. Was Gary North (son-in-law of Rushdoony)? Yes.

 

Thank you.

[SwallowTail]

As a christian, I have always been against sending my children to public schools, the "being salt and light" thing doesn't fly with me. Paul was referring to firmly rooted ADULT christians, not young children. But after watching this film I am even MORE convicted of my decision. WOW. Just WOW!

 

It really resonated with me when one of the pastors said that if he sent his children into a muslim school, or a buddhist school that his congregation would probably boo him out of the pulpit, however sending your children to a pagan school is completely normal and no one questions it whatsoever.

 

The fact is, government schools are not just free of any religion, they are vehemently AGAINST christianity and the teachings we try to impart to our children. the 14,000 hours that are spent in the classroom CANNOT be undone by the one hour they spend at Sunday School and the few hours at night of Christian studies (which I'm sure most christian households do not spend hours each night doing)

 

My nephew is being sent to PS next year for kindergarten and I am so concerned about that. Statistically, he will NOT come out of graduation a believer. For that I am sad.

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but statistically, a child raised in a Christian home is likely to go through a phase in their twenties where they reject the church. I am not sure there is much distinction between children who are homeschooled, public schooled, and private schooled in that regard. In fact, possibly more children raised in restrictive Christian homes will reject the faith of their parents than otherwise. There are several good book sont he topic.

Edited May 15, 2012 by SwallowTail

[Jenny in Florida]

Well, your children are either going to have a biblical worldview or a secular worldview...

 

Really?

 

So, Jews (of a wide variety of movements) cannot have a worldview?

 

What about Muslims?

 

Buddhists?

 

Or, indeed, pagans?

 

Or folks like me, who are religious, but don't belong to any of the above-listed groups? None of us are entitled to a worldview of our very own?

 

This kind of simplistic, insular, binary thinking makes me crazy.

[Princess Peach]

You totally missed it...

 

My point was that several people here never miss a chance to "grill" Doug Phillips and VF. (Do I necessarily agree with everything he says? No...but I don't think it is appropriate to throw this movie out just because he was interviewed and he stated his beliefs...)

 

If people are so outraged that VF would sell this movie, are they equally outraged that Amazon sells it? Are they willing to put their money where their mouth is?? ;)

 

So, you read it as outrage that VF would sell the movie? I didn't. I read it as, if VF is selling the movie, they endorse it, and I know where they're coming from, so I can see the premise of the movie from that. Amazon is not comparable in this case.

[astrid]

You know what...I am going to simply bow out of this conversation. I quite honestly feel extremely bullied, belittled, judged, and accused.

 

If I have come across in a way that makes me seem ugly, unforgiving, unloving...that is nothing of who I am, or who I want my children to grow to be. For that, please forgive me.

 

I want to raise my children to love God and to love others.

 

Have a good day.

 

To love ALL others, or just the ones with the same biblical world view as their own?

 

astrid

[SailorMom]

Really?

 

So, Jews (of a wide variety of movements) cannot have a worldview?

 

What about Muslims?

 

Buddhists?

 

Or, indeed, pagans?

 

Or folks like me, who are religious, but don't belong to any of the above-listed groups? None of us are entitled to a worldview of our very own?

 

This kind of simplistic, insular, binary thinking makes me crazy.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

As a Deist, this sort of thing drives me batty. Oh, and yeah - we have no morals because we aren't afraid we'll get struck down by God :lol:

 

As for statistics on kids not keeping their parents' faiths- The percentage I have seen was that 68% of teens state they do not believe in ANY God or religion. Obviously they change as they grow older, because more than 32% of the population goes to church.

I really do think, though, that a lot of the kids I see going to church/temple/worship/whatever with their parents haven't given it a whole lot of thought yet, and are just going with the flow.

[Jennifer3141]

I would NEVER say I am "more" christian, or think someone else "less" christian...I certainly don't have any authority on that mess. 88% of christian children come out of the PS system walking away from their faith, leaving 12% that still hold those convictions. I understand that it is possible. Is that a field that I want my children to battle alone and HOPE they are among the 12%? no

 

Could my children still walk away from their faith after I homeschool them? definitely Do I think my statistics will be more to my favor by keeping them out of the PS? absolutely

 

 

I'm confused. If 88% of Christian children leaving PS also leave their faith, why are there still signifcant numbers of Christians? Isn't the US at least still half Christian or are they simply not Christian enough? Were they Christian enough to begin with though? Frankly, were their parents Christian enough?

 

I don't get that statistic at all. So 88% of children outright reject their parents' faith the moment they leave PS, i.e. turn 18ish? How do we know that's not just people rejecting their childhood and looking for something else when they hit their rebellious teens? How do we know PS is to blame? Do any return?

 

That statistic looks more like propaganda to me because it makes no sense.

[Mrs Mungo]

You totally missed it...

 

My point was that several people here never miss a chance to "grill" Doug Phillips and VF. (Do I necessarily agree with everything he says? No...but I don't think it is appropriate to throw this movie out just because he was interviewed and he stated his beliefs...)

 

This movie is almost entirely populated with people who share similar views. They have a goal of "taking back" the country from secularism. This film is intended to lead people down a primrose path to homeschooling in which these same fundamentalists seek to control the dialogue and co-opt the homeschooling movement. We have had thread after thread on this over the years. Look them up. Look up the white paper. Look up the people who were saddened when HSLDA became a fear-mongering extorter of homeschoolers. The information is easy to find.

 

If people are so outraged that VF would sell this movie, are they equally outraged that Amazon sells it? Are they willing to put their money where their mouth is?? ;)

 

This makes zero sense.

 

I care what Vision Forum sells and what views they push *because they seek to control the homeschool movement*. That makes a difference in my life when speakers I want to see at a convention are disinvited for being the wrong brand of Christian. I find it downright disturbing and *extremely* UNChristian.

 

I don't care what amazon sells. Part of free speech is allowing access to materials that I might not agree with. Amazon selling the video has little to no impact on my life.

[astrid]

Perhaps. Calling yourself a christian and BEING one are sometimes two very different things.

 

 

Ain't that the truth.

 

astrid

[Word Nerd]

You totally missed it...

 

My point was that several people here never miss a chance to "grill" Doug Phillips and VF. (Do I necessarily agree with everything he says? No...but I don't think it is appropriate to throw this movie out just because he was interviewed and he stated his beliefs...)

 

If people are so outraged that VF would sell this movie, are they equally outraged that Amazon sells it? Are they willing to put their money where their mouth is?? ;)

 

Who's outraged? I'm not upset that Vision Forum is selling this movie; I simply think the fact that they do sell it it reveals something about the film. I think you missed my point, so I guess we're even. ;)

[FaithManor]

That's what I am praying for my nephew. Statistically 88% of christian children walk away from their faith :)

 

 

The most recent study by Barna shows that 75% of all kids raised in a "Christian home" walk away from their faith as adults and the statistics were the same for Christian homeschoolers and parochial schools with Catholic and Lutheran schools doing slightly better than everyone else. So, being sheltered from the public school isn't the big cure-all either.

 

The film, like all documentaries on culture, religion, and politics, is going to be naturally biased because the film maker chose a slant to pursue prior to film making. It is very, very doubtful that this person was unbiased or would have been pleasantly surprised if his or her assumptions were proved wrong, and would have reported his/her shock. Nope. That is just not likely to happen.

 

I know more people who have walked away from their faith BECAUSE of indoctrination at the Christian school or homeschool that prevented them from becoming mature, critically thinking adults, whose beliefs they could claim for their very own and not just as an outcome of being forced to give lip service to a faith they hadn't even come to understand. I was one of those and so was my dh, my sister as well and we had great parents. They were just deluded parents who thought legalism, force feeding Christianity, and sheltering out of fear would produce like minded adults even though this was NOT the upbringing they had and they turned out just fine! Most of the my classmates have totally, 100% rejected God due to their Christian school experiences and I while my college Bible study group was populated quite heavily by Christian Schooled and Christian Homeschooled freshman (32 of us in all) by senior year, only one or two still wanted anything to do with God.

 

I've come back to my personal faith in God inspite of indoctrination into Christianity.

 

Indoctrination into any worldview does not work. It eventually falls flat as the individual becomes a critical thinker and begins to differentiate him/herself from his/her parents and teachers.

 

I've seen the statistics and if parents want someone to blame, then they better look at home for HOW they introduced/taught matters of faith to their children. You can't blame the PS for it because the data doesn't support that claim.

 

That said, OP I do agree that there are a huge number of very negative cultural factors that have caused me to shun our local schools. Celebration of mediocrity, anti-academic biases, lack of science opportunities, bizarrely poor math instruction, almost ZERO history instruction, mind-boggling over emphasis on sports (cracks me up because these are class C and D schools where no college scout in the history of university education has ever set foot looking for talent but every one of these schools acts like the next Michael Jordon will hail from their burg!), violence, extreme crudeness, lack of classroom control/chaos, lack of parental involvement, school board not really doing the job it was elected to do, etc. I also recognize that while a lot of schools may be like mine, they all aren't. You should have attended Team America Rocketry Challenge! 100 teams from a variety of educational backgrounds (some private and parochial schools as well as 4-H clubs and scouts but mostly PS) gathered together to compete for prizes, scholarships, and college/industry recognition. My team met kids from every walk of life, every background - cultural diversity abounded and in their "socializing" discovered a number of them to be neat, Christian kids who were thriving academically, emotionally, physically, AND spiritually in their secular school environments.

 

Faith

[shanvan]

:iagree: It is a great, big onion with lots of layers!! I highly suggest learning about it and comparing it to Biblical truth!! It is dangerous indoctrination, imo, because they use the twisting of scripture with the intention (from what I've seen anyway) of creating a society that is an extra-biblical utopia type situation. God doesn't call us to a utopia here on earth...he calls us to be salt and light and to love him first and others second. I'll just say that the teachings offered in this dominionism/reconstructionist viewpoint are just gussied-up idolatry.

 

:iagree:Christians should be familiarize themselves with these POV. I have done some reading on the subject, though due to my ever deteriorating memory I need a refresher. I do not agree with the premise behind them (as I have read it explained). However, if you keep their goals in mind and read their articles, books, etc. critically (keeping an eye out for where the dominionism/reconstructionist views creep in, they do have some valid points and ideas you can learn from). I have thoroughly enjoyed and learned quite a lot from Rushdoony's Institutes of Biblical Law, even though he and I do not have the same goal in mind. It is fairly easy to spot where his ideas start to veer into dominionism, and that is when I usually find I do not agree with him.

 

Anyway there are very few authors I will agree with 100%. Sometimes (gasp) I don't agree with SWB. :D

 

[FaithManor]

This movie is almost entirely populated with people who share similar views. They have a goal of "taking back" the country from secularism. This film is intended to lead people down a primrose path to homeschooling in which these same fundamentalists seek to control the dialogue and co-opt the homeschooling movement. We have had thread after thread on this over the years. Look them up. Look up the white paper. Look up the people who were saddened when HSLDA became a fear-mongering extorter of homeschoolers. The information is easy to find.

 

 

 

This makes zero sense.

 

I care what Vision Forum sells and what views they push *because they seek to control the homeschool movement*. That makes a difference in my life when speakers I want to see at a convention are disinvited for being the wrong brand of Christian. I find it downright disturbing and *extremely* UNChristian.

 

I don't care what amazon sells. Part of free speech is allowing access to materials that I might not agree with. Amazon selling the video has little to no impact on my life.

 

 

Thank you Mrs. Mungo! I do so appreciate this post.

 

Faith