My cautionary tale

[JumpyTheFrog]

Anyone who tells their kids, "No I am not going to pay for your college, I have to pay for retirement" is being selfish and setting their children up for failure.

 

Well, I think it's good to make a distinction between those who can't help pay for college because of high medical bills and such versus those who plan poorly or spend too much on expensive houses (or cars) when they could get more reasonably priced housing in safe areas.

 

While I don't think college is necessary for everyone, I do think parents should work hard to make sure their kids can fend for themselves whether through going to college, go to trade school, or getting an apprencticeship. Now if a child is lazy, I understand parents not wanting to spend the money until he or she matures. But I do think we do many kids a disservice if we just expect them to make it out of high school without help.

 

Reading the book "Outliers" really opened my eyes to the reality of how often the "self-made man" wasn't really self-made, but rather hardworking AND lucky. If Bill Gates had lived a few towns over, he may have eventually gotten into computers, but probably wouldn't be a billionaire.

[scrapbookbuzz]

Anyone who tells their kids, "No I am not going to pay for your college, I have to pay for retirement" is being selfish and setting their children up for failure. Flat out, it is a parents responsibility to pay for most of college. When you take out college loans, part of it goes to the parents, and part of it goes to the kids, and the kids pay theirs back when they get out of school. That's the normal way to do it, and frankly I'm a little amazed that so many people here think it's acceptable to tell their kids they won't pay for it.

 

 

Since when is it "flat out the parents' responsibility to pay for (their children's) college"?? I'd say that is pretty selfish and assumptive. My parents only paid for part of my college and the rest was paid for by loans that were then dumped on me after the fact. Personally, I know that if I had needed to pay for it as I went, I would have taken my studies a heck of a lot more seriously or found something else to do! As it is, my degree sits in a frame and collects dust.

 

I don't think that parents should feel they HAVE to pay for their kids college. Nor do I agree that it is always "necessary" to go to college. There are many vocational schools and certificate programs out there that are just as beneficial and cost WAY less than college tuition these days.

 

No one should be made to go into debt to get an education or help support another person in education. That's just ridiculous.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I should add that I do know 3 families that have 5-6000 sq ft houses (with 3-4 kids) that they spent about half a million on. These families are patriarchal, so they will discourage college as a "waste" of money, especially for daughters. To me, their housing sizes are rediculous and they could easily fit in a house half that size and use some of the money to help their kids get started in life.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Amazingly, in other developed countries, university is considered part of the public schooling package, and is close to free. What a concept.

 

But it is not considered the right for each and every student. In Germany, you are tracked into vocational, professional/non-university and university prep schools around age 10. University prep students attend Gymnasium, but still have to pass the Abitur exam in order to enter university.

 

Personally, I'm glad that the test for university readiness isn't going to be next year for my youngest. He's still coming into his own.

[elegantlion]

Anyone who tells their kids, "No I am not going to pay for your college, I have to pay for retirement" is being selfish and setting their children up for failure. Flat out, it is a parents responsibility to pay for most of college. When you take out college loans, part of it goes to the parents, and part of it goes to the kids, and the kids pay theirs back when they get out of school. That's the normal way to do it, and frankly I'm a little amazed that so many people here think it's acceptable to tell their kids they won't pay for it.

 

I see you're new here...

 

1. Not everyone thinks like you, "normal" varies by perspective

2. not everyone has the same life experience you've had

3. Not everyone has the resources you presume

 

My dh will be mid 50s when ds graduates. Ds will have to find a way to pay for most of his college for reasons varied. I am not a selfish parent, nor am I setting him up for failure. I also don't presume that my ds will finish school and provide for me in my elder years either.

[southcarolinamom]

No, a parent who says "I'm not going to pay for college because I have to pay for retirement" might not be being selfish, merely realistic. There are only so many dollars to go around. Your responsibility as a parent is to raise the child to adulthood. College is completely optional, and is something that adults do. If an adult child chooses to attend college, then the parents are under no obligation to pay. Hopefully parents will try to help as much as financially possible, but when the choice comes down to paying for something optional versus being destitute in retirement, I think some would choose to fund their meager retirements. What you see as "normal" is not normal to the entire population.

 

:iagree: And I believe Dave Ramsey would, too. :D

[elegantlion]

I read an article online last night touting the great benefits of dual enrollment and graduating with an AA. This was from the public school perspective.

 

I can absolutely see that becoming the new norm. You'll graduate with an AA or a high school diploma. Those with only the high school diploma will feel behind. The AA degree will crowd out the AP push, because community colleges are partnering with high schools. Therefore the priority will go to the benefit of the community. APs will either die out or become secondary in importance.

 

The benefit they touted for the AA is that then you can get a Bachelor's in 2-3 years. However, because the college will want to keep you longer they'll start selling the Masters as the new Bachelor's and then they still get you for 4-6 years. Jobs will be categorized with Master's, Bachelor's, or AA even more so than now.

 

This is speculation on my part, but I can see this happening without much upset to the current system. I live in a small rural town, there is already a junior college offering college classes at night here, plus the regular dual enrollment from the nearest state university.

 

So education costs continue to go up. So now you're paying for an AA before high school is over and if you want to be competitive you'll still have to be in college 4-5 more years.

[Scarlett]

I see you're new here...

 

1. Not everyone thinks like you, "normal" varies by perspective

2. not everyone has the same life experience you've had

3. Not everyone has the resources you presume

 

My dh will be mid 50s when ds graduates. Ds will have to find a way to pay for most of his college for reasons varied. I am not a selfish parent, nor am I setting him up for failure. I also don't presume that my ds will finish school and provide for me in my elder years either.

 

:iagree:

[Venia]

No, a parent who says "I'm not going to pay for college because I have to pay for retirement" might not be being selfish, merely realistic. There are only so many dollars to go around. Your responsibility as a parent is to raise the child to adulthood. College is completely optional, and is something that adults do. If an adult child chooses to attend college, then the parents are under no obligation to pay. Hopefully parents will try to help as much as financially possible, but when the choice comes down to paying for something optional versus being destitute in retirement, I think some would choose to fund their meager retirements. What you see as "normal" is not normal to the entire population.

 

:iagree:

In this economy, we will do everything in our power while we are able bodied to not be a burden to them when we are not.

[ShadowProphet]

It's the child's responsibility to work hard in school, and the parent's responsibility to make sure that pays off. If that means making some personal sacrifices, well, that's part of being a parent. Obviously, health bills, making sure the family has a roof over its head, and keeping food on the table is more important than paying for college. A retirement fund is NOT. If you raised your kids well, they will help you out when YOU need it, too. And no, college is not for everyone. That being said, a high school diploma is not really enough in this day and age. Thinking that getting your kids through high school means the rest is up to them is silly.

[LisaKinVA]

:iagree: In this economy, we will do everything in our power while we are able bodied to not be a burden to them when we are not.

 

I have to wonder, what does it mean to "be a burden to them?" My grandparents lived by this mantra. It meant we never got to see my grandma but once a year. We saw my other grandparents even less (unless we visited). In the end, it was a burden, because my parents had to be gone, far away, to deal with sickness, death, funeral, and estate details. We are planning to be in a position of having my parents (and apparently dh's parents) close by (my parents, possibly under the same roof). I remember hearing my grandparents talk about "not wanting to be a burden," and I still don't get it.

 

I don't particularly want to live out on my own somewhere far from my kids in my old age... assuming I make it that long. Nor, do I consider that being a burden. Although, I don't plan to have any debt, and a modest amount of money to call my own. I think we (as Americans) need to get out of the mindset that family helping family is somehow "burdensome." Whether that's parents helping children or children helping parents.

[elegantlion]

It's the child's responsibility to work hard in school, and the parent's responsibility to make sure that pays off. If that means making some personal sacrifices, well, that's part of being a parent. Obviously, health bills, making sure the family has a roof over its head, and keeping food on the table is more important than paying for college. A retirement fund is NOT. If you raised your kids well, they will help you out when YOU need it, too. And no, college is not for everyone. That being said, a high school diploma is not really enough in this day and age. Thinking that getting your kids through high school means the rest is up to them is silly.

 

And what is your real life experience with this? How many children have you put through college? If not and your parents paid for your education how are you paying them back now?

 

What do you suppose a retired person should live on? Social Security?:lol: The hopes their children will be successful and be able to provide for their groceries?

 

Perhaps this is what you envision everyone doing with their retirement fund:

 

 

Obviously, they're laughing because they tricked their kids into paying for their own education while they saved to travel the world. :tongue_smilie:

 

No, some people have retirement funds that do things like pay for the mortgage, put food on the table, pay for car repairs, health bills, or even *gasp* caring for their own elderly parents. YMMV.

[Colleen in NS]

It's the child's responsibility to work hard in school, and the parent's responsibility to make sure that pays off. If that means making some personal sacrifices, well, that's part of being a parent. Obviously, health bills, making sure the family has a roof over its head, and keeping food on the table is more important than paying for college. A retirement fund is NOT. If you raised your kids well, they will help you out when YOU need it, too. And no, college is not for everyone. That being said, a high school diploma is not really enough in this day and age. Thinking that getting your kids through high school means the rest is up to them is silly.

 

Hi Alan,

 

Could you give us some information about you? You mentioned in another post that a home-schooled friend of yours sends you links to debates on these forums, and your first post on the forums was a doozy - calling the other posters crazy. Are you a parent? If so, how old are your kids? I'm just wondering how you can say the above-bolded things so confidently - do you have the experience to back up your claims? If your purpose in joining the forums was to get involved in debates here, it would be helpful and polite for you to tell us a bit about yourself and your background, so we can evaluate your comments knowledgeably. Thanks.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[Perry]

nm

Edited April 23, 2012 by Perry

[Venia]

I have to wonder, what does it mean to "be a burden to them?" My grandparents lived by this mantra. It meant we never got to see my grandma but once a year. We saw my other grandparents even less (unless we visited). In the end, it was a burden, because my parents had to be gone, far away, to deal with sickness, death, funeral, and estate details. We are planning to be in a position of having my parents (and apparently dh's parents) close by (my parents, possibly under the same roof). I remember hearing my grandparents talk about "not wanting to be a burden," and I still don't get it.

 

I don't particularly want to live out on my own somewhere far from my kids in my old age... assuming I make it that long. Nor, do I consider that being a burden. Although, I don't plan to have any debt, and a modest amount of money to call my own. I think we (as Americans) need to get out of the mindset that family helping family is somehow "burdensome." Whether that's parents helping children or children helping parents.

 

To me it simply means that we hope to have the finances in place to provide for our health and welfare when we are not able to work and/or need assistance care. Its not about isolating ourselves.

 

Providing for one's family is difficult enough without having to worry about finding money for grandma's assisted living facility or even worrying about the quality of care she is getting because there was not enough money to get her into a good one. My hope is that I have that all taken care of for myself and DH so they can focus on providing for their children and own retirements. Its not that I do not want their help, I just do not want to force myself on them due to my poor financial choices. ETA: Offering to pay for a full ride to an out-of-state prestige university when we cannot pay with savings is one of the poor decisions we could make.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Venia

[*lifeoftheparty*]

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[*lifeoftheparty*]

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[Colleen in NS]

You are SO much more grown up than me, LOL!!

 

:D

 

Just trying my best to be of service for the good of the forums! :lol::lol:

[JumpyTheFrog]

I personally wonder how many people that think it "isn't their job" to help pay for college (I'm talking about people who can afford to help at least somewhat, without major sacrifice, but don't want to - not the people that want to but truly can't afford it) hope their kids will receieve grants and scholarships. I wonder why someone like this would want, or perheps even expect, others to help pay for what they themselves are unwilling to pay for.

 

Also, even if a family can't afford thousands per year, surely many could at least save $25 per month. Too often, I think people see the high price tag, and just give up, rather than contributing something.

[Danestress]

You are taking a lot of heat for this opinion, but before I came to this board, I think I more or less believed everyone thinks the way you do. It would never have occurred to me that my parents wouldn't pay for my college. Everyone I knew had parents who paid for their college, at least in part, and I just assumed that this would be my responsibility when I was a parent. I knew kids who worked and had loans, but if any of them had parents who didn't help at all, I didn't know it at the time.

 

DH and I had the number of children we believed we could afford to send to college. I thought everyone did that. When we were first married, he had a child from his first marriage and we had a massive argument when he made a comment about not being able to afford a certain private college for him. I told him if he didn't think he could afford to send his son to the best college he could get into, that was fine, but I better never see him drink a beer or a Starbucks coffee or waste one dollar on any other luxury and then later say he couldn't afford that private college.

 

Over time, I have seen that many people don't have this attitude, and I totally understand their position. Now that I am an aging person, I realize that being on financial solid ground myself is a gift to my kids. I realize that college is very very expensive and most people can't afford to fully fund multiple college educations. I see how people my age end up with massive medical bills, unemployment, etc, and just aren't the position they thought they would be in when college comes around. And I also see that having a lot of siblings, while it might have negative financial consequences, is also a great thing in life.

 

People make complex decisions for many reasons, and I don't feel quite so opinionated about these things any more. Everyone figures out what works for their own family and situation.

[Venia]

I personally wonder how many people that think it "isn't their job" to help pay for college (I'm talking about people who can afford to help at least somewhat, without major sacrifice, but don't want to - not the people that want to but truly can't afford it) hope their kids will receieve grants and scholarships. I wonder why someone like this would want, or perheps even expect, others to help pay for what they themselves are unwilling to pay for.

 

Also, even if a family can't afford thousands per year, surely many could at least save $25 per month. Too often, I think people see the high price tag, and just give up, rather than contributing something.

 

Good point.

 

We absolutely plan to help as much as we can in addition to the savings we set aside for them. However, our "help" does not include huge loans in our name.

 

Probably a spinoff, but then there are the folks have extreme "conditions" for which they will pay or not pay; such as a particular school, major, living conditions and/or personal social life. Not so much the reasonable financial conditions like choosing a local school or not covering dorm expenses, but the conditions that essentially take away any choices the student could make. "So you are not going to my Alma mater and studying electrical engineering? No funding for you!"

 

For example, my own parents had a savings account earmarked for my education. Let's just say they recently bought a new luxury car for themselves with it. Good for them, better for me :)

[Aggie]

I'm sorry, but what planet are you living on? Many people prefer not to intentionally burden their children with geriatric care, myself being one of them.

 

 

 

Bravo. Well said. Being on solid financial ground is a gift to our children.

 

And if you look at my signature line, it is conceivable that I could have FOUR children in college at once. I can't imagine the level of "sacrifice" that people like ShadowProphet think I should give in order to pay for that. Perhaps I could give up daily eating. :lol:

 

If you raised your kids well, they'll feed you when they're adults.:lol:

 

Good point.

 

We absolutely plan to help as much as we can in addition to the savings we set aside for them. However, our "help" does not include huge loans in our name.

 

Probably a spinoff, but then there are the folks have extreme "conditions" for which they will pay or not pay; such as a particular school, major, living conditions and/or personal social life. Not so much the reasonable financial conditions like choosing a local school or not covering dorm expenses, but the conditions that essentially take away any choices the student could make. "So you are not going to my Alma mater and studying electrical engineering? No funding for you!"

 

For example, my own parents had a savings account earmarked for my education. Let's just say they recently bought a new luxury car for themselves with it. Good for them, better for me :)

 

We won't fund or support a degree in music, theater, art, etc. (They call me The Dream Killer) As for living expenses, it depends on the individual and the circumstances. It would be highly unlikely we would pay for a dc to live alone in an apt.

 

IF one of our dc KNOWS what degree s/he wants to pursue, and has worked hard toward that end, we'll help as much as possible. We won't fund a 4 year extension of childhood so said student can 'go find him/herself' iykwim.

 

For example, if a ds is set on law or med school, we would certainly help him get there. We would not help if ds wanted a graduate degree in piano performance, or send a child off to an expensive college is s/he had no idea what his/her major was going to be.

 

We won't fund a degree from t.u., either.:lol: Am I wrong, AggieAmy?!:D

[JumpyTheFrog]

Probably a spinoff, but then there are the folks have extreme "conditions" for which they will pay or not pay; such as a particular school, major, living conditions and/or personal social life. Not so much the reasonable financial conditions like choosing a local school or not covering dorm expenses, but the conditions that essentially take away any choices the student could make. "So you are not going to my Alma mater and studying electrical engineering? No funding for you!"

 

This is called a "bounded choice." I first heard the term when reading about cults. Daughter, you want a way to earn money when you grow up? Sure, as long as you pick something you can do part-time from home, without having to pay for college or other training, and that doesn't interfere with homeschooling, having a baby every 18 months, and catering to your husband's every whim.

 

Unfortunately, I know people like this.

[edelweiss]

You are taking a lot of heat for this opinion, but before I came to this board, I think I more or less believed everyone thinks the way you do. It would never have occurred to me that my parents wouldn't pay for my college. Everyone I knew had parents who paid for their college, at least in part, and I just assumed that this would be my responsibility when I was a parent. I knew kids who worked and had loans, but if any of them had parents who didn't help at all, I didn't know it at the time.

 

DH and I had the number of children we believed we could afford to send to college. I thought everyone did that. When we were first married, he had a child from his first marriage and we had a massive argument when he made a comment about not being able to afford a certain private college for him. I told him if he didn't think he could afford to send his son to the best college he could get into, that was fine, but I better never see him drink a beer or a Starbucks coffee or waste one dollar on any other luxury and then later say he couldn't afford that private college.

 

Over time, I have seen that many people don't have this attitude, and I totally understand their position. Now that I am an aging person, I realize that being on financial solid ground myself is a gift to my kids. I realize that college is very very expensive and most people can't afford to fully fund multiple college educations. I see how people my age end up with massive medical bills, unemployment, etc, and just aren't the position they thought they would be in when college comes around. And I also see that having a lot of siblings, while it might have negative financial consequences, is also a great thing in life.

 

People make complex decisions for many reasons, and I don't feel quite so opinionated about these things any more. Everyone figures out what works for their own family and situation.

 

I agree that this is the way I lean too. DH and I made many decisions in our adult life with the goal of paying for our kids' college educations (and private school before we decided to homeschool). We got our own college educations first, waited almost 7 years to have our first child, strategically took jobs even when we had to move around the country, etc. to improve our careers, only had two children, etc. We did all of this to ensure that we were on solid financial footing and could afford to provide our kids with a good start in life, including college degrees. This approach has worked well for us and I'm glad that we are in the position that we are in. We plan to pay for our children's education in full.

 

However, I do understand that not everyone is in the position to help with college or just do not see it as a priority. I certainly don't think that parents should go into debt over it, but I do think that if they can help in even a minimal way, they should do so. Ultimately, however, it is up to each family to work out and really none of my business. ;)

[Julie in MN]

I personally wonder how many people that think it "isn't their job" to help pay for college (I'm talking about people who can afford to help at least somewhat, without major sacrifice, but don't want to - not the people that want to but truly can't afford it) hope their kids will receieve grants and scholarships. I wonder why someone like this would want, or perheps even expect, others to help pay for what they themselves are unwilling to pay for.

 

Also, even if a family can't afford thousands per year, surely many could at least save $25 per month. Too often, I think people see the high price tag, and just give up, rather than contributing something.

 

I'm older than most on these boards.

 

My grandfather was kicked out of his home because he wanted to finish high school. He left, and finished. It was his parents' free choice to require farm work rather than education, according to their own needs and values. It was my grandfather's responsibility to find another way if he didn't want to follow their way.

 

My parents came from little and did fairly well for themselves (if you want to call an Air Force Colonel salary doing well), so their hesitation to give free financial help was not based on their means but on their life experience. They did agree to help with college, but only under certain specific guidelines. Those included paying our own living expenses the first year, getting good grades and living off a small stipend the second year, and starting college by age 25 (so nothing for my sister).

 

My husband's family has no college grads, and few high school grads, up through our generation. But lots of cash has been unconditionally handed out in that family. The newest generation in this family has often been unconditionally supported through college, complete with the "dorm experience." The result has been many a cashier with a 5-year college debt.

 

There are lots of situations out there.

 

Now that I'm in my 50's, I can look around and say that my siblings, who were raised with the knowledge that nothing would be freely handed to them, are more stable financially, less complaining, and more involved in helping the next generation in different ways than most we know who have received a free ride in various ways in their adulthood.

 

The issue of helping your children is much more complex than committing to educate them. Obviously everyone on this board is committed to educating their children. But not everyone thinks that paying for college is the best way to help their children, even if our government does. I guess not everyone thinks college is a sure path to happiness, anyways, especially if the student is young and the ride is free.

 

Hope that helps see a few other points of view,

Julie

[JumpyTheFrog]

The issue of helping your children is much more complex than committing to educate them. Obviously everyone on this board is committed to educating their children. But not everyone thinks that paying for college is the best way to help their children, even if our government does. I guess not everyone thinks college is a sure path to happiness, anyways, especially if the student is young and the ride is free.

 

I agree college is not for everyone, and also for parents not to waste their money if their kids are still too immature to go. Perhaps instead of saying "help pay for college" I should have said "help pay for college, vocational school,or money to start a business." My main point is that few students have any skills by high school graduation that would get them a job earning more than $9-10 per hour.

 

For that matter, the 2009 and 2010 college graduates surveyed had a median starting salary of $27,000! Half of all those grads with jobs were earning less than $27,000 per year. Many hadn't found jobs yet. The median starting income had gone down 10% since 2008.

 

I think the real problem is that wages have been stagnant for all but the top few percent of workers for 30-40 years in this country. The middle class is broke and slipping away. They may have more toys and nicer houses, but it's all been with borrowed money. Health care, housing (location dependent), and college are not in line with wages. Retirement is just a dream for many.

 

I want to help my kids try to avoid the financial tailspin I see the country slipping into. If our families and friends hadn't helped financially launch us, we might be part of the $500 per week club (referring to the median weekly pay of workers). Sure, we worked hard, but hard work alone wouldn't have been enough without the college money relatives gave us and a friend apprenticing my DH for almost a year for free when DH needed a career change.

[JumpyTheFrog]

But lots of cash has been unconditionally handed out in that family. The newest generation in this family has often been unconditionally supported through college, complete with the "dorm experience."

 

I completely support parents who say, "I can afford to help pay for college/vocational training/starting a business, but little Johnny isn't mature enough yet." I would encourage those parents to tell Johnny "You aren't hard-working, mature, or reliable enough for us to invest this much money in you. Get a job and prove yourself for a few years, then we will help pay."

 

My brother threw his college money down the drain. I did well in college. But before going, he already had a history of not doing his homework (or chores) and mediocre grades, whereas I had proven myself responsible. My brother finally got his act together when he decided to get married. It would've been better if he had waited another 5-6 years to start college, after he matured. The answer for him wouldn't have been for my parents to cut him off forever, but to wait to help pay until he finally acted like an adult.

[Deb in NZ]

No, a parent who says "I'm not going to pay for college because I have to pay for retirement" might not be being selfish, merely realistic. There are only so many dollars to go around. Your responsibility as a parent is to raise the child to adulthood. College is completely optional, and is something that adults do. If an adult child chooses to attend college, then the parents are under no obligation to pay. Hopefully parents will try to help as much as financially possible, but when the choice comes down to paying for something optional versus being destitute in retirement, I think some would choose to fund their meager retirements. What you see as "normal" is not normal to the entire population.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Plucky]

I agree college is not for everyone, and also for parents not to waste their money if their kids are still too immature to go. Perhaps instead of saying "help pay for college" I should have said "help pay for college, vocational school,or money to start a business." My main point is that few students have any skills by high school graduation that would get them a job earning more than $9-10 per hour.

 

For that matter, the 2009 and 2010 college graduates surveyed had a median starting salary of $27,000! Half of all those grads with jobs were earning less than $27,000 per year. Many hadn't found jobs yet. The median starting income had gone down 10% since 2008.

 

I think the real problem is that wages have been stagnant for all but the top few percent of workers for 30-40 years in this country. The middle class is broke and slipping away. They may have more toys and nicer houses, but it's all been with borrowed money. Health care, housing (location dependent), and college are not in line with wages. Retirement is just a dream for many.

 

I want to help my kids try to avoid the financial tailspin I see the country slipping into. If our families and friends hadn't helped financially launch us, we might be part of the $500 per week club (referring to the median weekly pay of workers). Sure, we worked hard, but hard work alone wouldn't have been enough without the college money relatives gave us and a friend apprenticing my DH for almost a year for free when DH needed a career change.

 

I was reading that half of graduates are unemployed or underemployed. I wonder what the degrees are that most are getting.

[LisaKinVA]

I was reading that half of graduates are unemployed or underemployed. I wonder what the degrees are that most are getting.

 

- non-specific degrees (for example, biology on it's own generally won't get you anything more than a degree in history). People think that because it's "science" they are golden. Nope (one of our employees had this issue, took 2 years to get a job, and it's nothing close to biology ;), unless you count the fact that she works with other living organisms...aka people!)

 

- specialized, but highly-competitive (usually need connections to get into), art-history, for example -- possibly movie production could be in this area.

 

- thoughty, but not practical (psychology & philosophy come to mind)

 

- general humanities courses (poli sci, communications, English, literature, history). If you pair these with internships, good contacts, paired with a teaching certificate you'll probably do fine. Without it, you've got your work cut out for you.

 

That's what I've got off the top of my head, anyhow.

[Hoggirl]

We won't fund or support a degree in music, theater, art, etc.

 

 

Why not?

 

 

IF one of our dc KNOWS what degree s/he wants to pursue, and has worked hard toward that end, we'll help as much as possible.

 

Unless it's in the arts, right?

[Hoggirl]

This is called a "bounded choice." I first heard the term when reading about cults. Daughter, you want a way to earn money when you grow up? Sure, as long as you pick something you can do part-time from home, without having to pay for college or other training, and that doesn't interfere with homeschooling, having a baby every 18 months, and catering to your husband's every whim.

 

Unfortunately, I know people like this.

 

Yeah, I do, too.

[Deb in NZ]

It's the child's responsibility to work hard in school, and the parent's responsibility to make sure that pays off. If that means making some personal sacrifices, well, that's part of being a parent. Obviously, health bills, making sure the family has a roof over its head, and keeping food on the table is more important than paying for college. A retirement fund is NOT. If you raised your kids well, they will help you out when YOU need it, too. And no, college is not for everyone. That being said, a high school diploma is not really enough in this day and age. Thinking that getting your kids through high school means the rest is up to them is silly.

 

The real world today doesn't live up to your idealistic views for most people. I grew up in a middle class family with six kids. Both my parents had degrees & it was expected that all us six kids would get degrees as well. My father had set aside the company stocks he recieved as part of his salary to help pay for half of our college costs. This he told us was our only inheritance we would receive. This was possible only because it was during the 1980s. Looking forward 30-odd years, all six of us kids have degrees. One sister failed out of 3 different colleges before putting herself through an AA at community college & later getting a nursing degree in her 30s. One brother lived at home until he was in his 30s. Another brother's marriage broke up & he moved in with my father 3 years ago, bringing with him 3dc. He turns 40 later this year & although he has a good job he can not afford to find his own place. One sister got cancer at age 30 & died at age 38 fully dependant on my parents for the final year of her life. My mother developed a precancerous condition that meant the last decade of her life was spent traveling to the Mayo Clinic.

 

When you consider how the past 30 years has worked out for my family, I am very grateful that my parents did not go into debt for us to go to college. They helped us as they were able, but not to the degree that they took on debt. My father had a great pension sceme through his work, so his retirement was covered. If that had not been the case, his shares would have been his retirement nest egg, not used for our education. My dh is a carpenter & I was a SAHM for the past 20 years. Dh puts a small amount each month into 2 pension scemes, but we have no savings towards tertiary study for our dc. Dd has had to take on student loans to pay for her study & will have a loan of ~$20k when she graduates the end of this year. We will help as much as we are able to pay it back, but it is her debt as this is the path she has chosen. Ds#1 had to take a small student loan (~$3500) for one of his engineering courses, but will have that paid off by him before the end of this year. The rest of his training costs are funded by his wages as an apprentice. Ds#2 is looking at going the apprenticeship route as well. Dh will turn 65 when ds#2 is 17yo. There is NO way we could take on $$$$$$ in debt to fund "college experiences" for our 3dc & they do not expect it. Being debt-free ourselves when we retire is the biggest gift we can provide for our dc. This will enable us to provide shelter for our dc if/when life turns difficult.

[Plucky]

- non-specific degrees (for example, biology on it's own generally won't get you anything more than a degree in history). People think that because it's "science" they are golden. Nope (one of our employees had this issue, took 2 years to get a job, and it's nothing close to biology ;), unless you count the fact that she works with other living organisms...aka people!)

 

- specialized, but highly-competitive (usually need connections to get into), art-history, for example -- possibly movie production could be in this area.

 

- thoughty, but not practical (psychology & philosophy come to mind)

 

- general humanities courses (poli sci, communications, English, literature, history). If you pair these with internships, good contacts, paired with a teaching certificate you'll probably do fine. Without it, you've got your work cut out for you.

 

That's what I've got off the top of my head, anyhow.

 

That's what I was thinking. Did you know that nurses are having a hard time finding a job straight out of school? Seems current nurses are putting off retirement due to the economy.

[Aggie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aggie

We won't fund or support a degree in music, theater, art, etc.

 

 

Why not?

 

 

I hope I didn't sound snotty about fine arts. We've supported the arts, and participated in them, for years! And, of course, this is for *our* family. Obviously this isn't right for every family. :)

 

However, we've seen too many women (some on this board) who need to work. DHs who are unemployed, under-employed, ill, or don't come home from a deployment. Or the wife needs to leave the marriage but needs a job first.

 

We also know theater and music majors waiting tables. All that time, work, and money and they can't find a job. :(

 

We are encouraging our girls to go into something on which they can depend for an income in the coming years just in case. We hate to think of those awful circumstances, but we do want dc to be prepared.

 

And, of course, there are these posts:

 

 

 

I was reading that half of graduates are unemployed or underemployed. I wonder what the degrees are that most are getting.

 

- non-specific degrees (for example, biology on it's own generally won't get you anything more than a degree in history). People think that because it's "science" they are golden. Nope (one of our employees had this issue, took 2 years to get a job, and it's nothing close to biology ;), unless you count the fact that she works with other living organisms...aka people!)

 

- specialized, but highly-competitive (usually need connections to get into), art-history, for example -- possibly movie production could be in this area.

 

- thoughty, but not practical (psychology & philosophy come to mind)

 

- general humanities courses (poli sci, communications, English, literature, history). If you pair these with internships, good contacts, paired with a teaching certificate you'll probably do fine. Without it, you've got your work cut out for you.

 

That's what I've got off the top of my head, anyhow.

[kalanamak]

 

We also know theater and music majors waiting tables. All that time, work, and money and they can't find a job. :(

 

Indeed. I know two artists who make a good living, but both of them showed incredible talent, dedication, and have given up a lot to "make it". Not a major you think of for a woman who has to suddenly come up with a job with around the age of 40.

 

However, a truly passionate artist is going to do it, no matter what mum says. ;)

 

(I also know a woman who majored in art, and got a spot working for an incredibly demanding potter in Japan. She didn't learn much from that slave driving woman, but she learned Japanese, and now supports family working as a teacher of the language! No teaching degree, just that Eastern art major!)

[housedress]

He supports our family. But he will discourage art school if any of our kids are interested, unless they are extremely driven with strong entreprenurial streaks.

[creekland]

I'm encouraging my guys to go where their passions lie. Getting a job in their niche is better than being stuck in one that isn't (pay doesn't matter so much to us). But, we're also being realistic about job opportunities and what it takes to get there. They know they'll need to put forth the drive to accomplish their dreams. And they aren't getting into high debt for a low paying job. They may have low "investment" debt into their degrees in order to go to a good school (what's a good school varies by major and student fit). I see nothing wrong with that.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I personally wonder how many people that think it "isn't their job" to help pay for college (I'm talking about people who can afford to help at least somewhat, without major sacrifice, but don't want to - not the people that want to but truly can't afford it) hope their kids will receieve grants and scholarships. I wonder why someone like this would want, or perheps even expect, others to help pay for what they themselves are unwilling to pay for.

 

Also, even if a family can't afford thousands per year, surely many could at least save $25 per month. Too often, I think people see the high price tag, and just give up, rather than contributing something.

 

I am thrilled my kids got scholarships because they were merit based. My kids darn well WORKED for them. I think we keep kids immature far too long. Taking responsibility for your finances, waiting, working and striving for your degree teach valuable lessons. DH and I help as we can out of love not responsibility. I think the fact we both learned from our struggles informs our choices. YMMV

[Heather in Neverland]

It's the child's responsibility to work hard in school, and the parent's responsibility to make sure that pays off. If that means making some personal sacrifices, well, that's part of being a parent. Obviously, health bills, making sure the family has a roof over its head, and keeping food on the table is more important than paying for college. A retirement fund is NOT. If you raised your kids well, they will help you out when YOU need it, too. And no, college is not for everyone. That being said, a high school diploma is not really enough in this day and age. Thinking that getting your kids through high school means the rest is up to them is silly.

 

:lol::lol::lol: Newbies crack me up sometimes.

[Hoggirl]

 

 

I hope I didn't sound snotty about fine arts. We've supported the arts, and participated in them, for years! And, of course, this is for *our* family. Obviously this isn't right for every family. :)

 

However, we've seen too many women (some on this board) who need to work. DHs who are unemployed, under-employed, ill, or don't come home from a deployment. Or the wife needs to leave the marriage but needs a job first.

 

We also know theater and music majors waiting tables. All that time, work, and money and they can't find a job. :(

 

We are encouraging our girls to go into something on which they can depend for an income in the coming years just in case. We hate to think of those awful circumstances, but we do want dc to be prepared.

 

 

Oh, I do understand the practicality. I have a son who is considering pursuing music as a degree. (I'm not sure why the discussion about music has been focused on daughters??) He could really do anything he wanted, and the thought of him pursuing music as a career scares the you-know-what out of me. But as Kalanamak wrote:

 

However, a truly passionate artist is going to do it, no matter what mum says.

 

We are just trying to make sure he goes in with eyes wide open of what his life may be like if he goes with a music degree. I personally chose NOT to major in music b/c I saw how my music teacher lived compared to how my family lived! :lol: OTOH, I am not going to be one to tell him we won't "allow" it. No one will be going into debt over any degree - at least if circumstances remain as they are today. Life has many unknowns, of course.

 

Our ds is only a sophomore, but he has extremely strong stats with high ACT and SAT scores already under his belt. But I think the most important thing to take from this thread is that people should not assume merit money will be there. As of right now, my ds already has the test scores/grades (he would have to keep them up, of course) to go to the University of Alabama tuition free, as an example. There are other schools who have some clear-cut merit aid that is just plug and chug based on the numbers. But my ds isn't going to school for another two years, and I will not assume those merit awards will still be there when he applies. I will not assume he won't apply to a school where there is no merit aid. Likewise, I will not assume he will get into any school he wants no matter how academically strong and musically talented he is - the top of the pile is a complete cr@p shoot. Lastly, I will not assume there is any degree that is going to guarantee him a job. And, even if he does choose to go to school somewhere where he gets good merit aid, there are no guarantees he will be able to maintain the GPA required to keep that aid.

 

I feel sorry for the OP. I truly do. But, I think a bit more research would have demonstrated that her dc's stats, while good, are not exceptional. There are GOBS of super smart, high achieving kids out there. GOBS of them.

[cin]

 

Maybe you all should consider moving to Utah!! :)

 

Don't tempt me. Utah is one of my FAVORITE places.

[cin]

I just did a check on our local state school, University of Cincinnati. Oh. My. First off, I paid about $12,500 TOTAL for my bachelor's degree. I *DID* take the 5 yr plan :D

 

BUT now, tuition at the main campus is $10,700 per YEAR. Now, if we send our daughter to one of their 'community' college branches, which has the same name on all the paperwork, it is HALF the price. There are 2 branches, and they are 5,200 and 5,900, depending on which one you choose. AND, the one closest to us is offering BS degrees in some areas.

 

All that being said, our girls do have a trust fund from grandma of $125,000 each. In 10 years, one would HOPE that will cover at least the first 4 years of schooling. And maybe a car. >sigh<

 

Listening to SWB at the Cincinnati Convention, she said that the kids should go to the best school that they can afford, without loans. Ivy League really doesn't mean anything anymore, unless you are 'that group' to begin with.

As I think about what she said, a lot of professions have 'State Board' type of tests you have to take before you can be licensed, so your scores on that would have a lot to do with your hire-ability. Yeah, I'm thinking community college, study your hiney off sounds better and better. Especially when the transcript will say Univ. of Cin. Just as if you paid double.

[Jumping In Puddles]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but one option is for the student to get a job where the employer pays tuition.

 

My stbxh works for Verizon and had his undergraduate degree paid in full including student fees and actually, all fees by the company. He only paid for books.

 

He went to Thomas Edison State College BUT he could have gone to NYU, Rutgers... wherever! They do not have a cap. You go - they pay. My stbxh majored in criminal justice. If he wants to pursue a masters -- it's on Verizon. Plus they earn a decent wage (full base pay after 3 years! with full benefits that they do not pay in to!) They are hiring in many states and will fully train you.

 

I haven't looked into it, but Verizon can't be the only company to offer this.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Jumping In Puddles

[amy g.]

My college roommate worked for Half Price Books, and they paid her tuition.

[kalanamak]

My college roommate worked for Half Price Books, and they paid her tuition.

 

 

http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/25/pf/college/tuition-business/index.htm

 

Did anyone hear this bit about Clarkson College on ..... ohh, the NPR show on weeknights, about money.

[ksr5377]

I have to wonder, what does it mean to "be a burden to them?" QUOTE]

 

I consider this to mean a financial burden, especially in this conversation. It doesn't make sense to go into debt to pay for your child's college education if that means you might not be able to pay for your medication when you're retired.

[Jane in NC]

http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/25/pf/college/tuition-business/index.htm

 

Did anyone hear this bit about Clarkson College on ..... ohh, the NPR show on weeknights, about money.

 

Yup. The story was on Marketplace. I have heard of a number of colleges that work with students on entrepreneurship, but Clarkson seems to take it to a new level.

[*Michelle*]

Listening to SWB at the Cincinnati Convention, she said that the kids should go to the best school that they can afford, without loans. Ivy League really doesn't mean anything anymore, unless you are 'that group' to begin with.

 

:iagree:

[Nan in Mass]

I have to wonder, what does it mean to "be a burden to them?" QUOTE]

 

I consider this to mean a financial burden, especially in this conversation. It doesn't make sense to go into debt to pay for your child's college education if that means you might not be able to pay for your medication when you're retired.

 

I don't know. I'm sure that many parents willingly sacrifice to ensure that their children have a good life. Parenting, sort of by definition, means making sacrifices for one's children. One oughtn't to be foolish, of course, but given a choice between living with my child in my old age because I gave him the means to support himself and his family well, and supporting myself in my old age having left my child to struggle through life, I think perhaps the first choice might be better for everyone involved. This is probably a matter of family culture, though. Some families seem to be more interdependent than others.

 

Nan