What do you think of Bob Jones University?

[wapiti]

Y'all just reminded me that my OB attended Wheaton for undergrad. She is awesome - very, very bright and extremely up to date on the latest research, etc. (I definitely have high standards for my doctors due to my history, and I was extremely pleased). I don't know the ranking of her med school.

[Ipsey]

With all due respect, Tinnie, people may believe what ever they wish regarding how the world got here, and everything in it. I'm a Christian, myself, so I believe in a divine Creator.

 

However, I believe that as God established the laws that run the universe, these laws are observable through our empirical senses. This is something that has been tested again, and again, and again, and again. This is the most elemental of understandings concerning science.

 

Therefore, if it is to be called scientific, it needs to be tested by the same rigorous model, the scientific method. If it is "proved" (although I hate that word--it's actually not one most scientists like) through various methods of gathering data and testing, and the results consistently bear similar results, then we have what's called a body of evidence. Not that you won't have the occasional outlier, a study or experiment that gives conflicting results. But that is why scientists plan and execute so many studies, from many different perspectives, in order to find the bell curve, so to speak, and establish what the big picture is telling us.

 

EVERYTHING that is predicated upon science, be it medicine to engineering to space flight to even the soft sciences, like social science relies upon this time tested method.

 

The Theory of Evolution is no different.

 

It hasn't been subjected to a different standard of science. It hasn't been rushed through a year's testing with the FDA and approved. :D

 

It's been studied by countless scientists, from every scientific discipline known: chemistry, biology, astronomy, geology, oceanography, zoology, and on and on. Every major branch agrees, because each one has yielded results that corroborate, build up, or give more detailed information on evolution. It's not just Darwin looked at birds on a remote island one day and wrote a book, and viola! It's all proved. No. It's been over a century's worth of scientific evidence building and building on it.

 

 

So, as far as science being God's thing? Yes, it is. That's why I don't choose to ignore the concrete evidence established over and over, through study of His laws, using the senses He gave us, to observe the cosmos.

 

That's why, if I have a choice, I'd rather have the surgeon work on me that is operating (pun totally intended) according to evidence-based medicine, rather than an understanding that is predicated upon rejecting such evidence, when it goes against his own personal, subjective, unprovable beliefs.

 

Same thing goes for linguists, engineers, etc. They may believe what they wish, but their work had better be founded in science--not what they read in Genesis. If they did, linguists would never attempt to deconstruct languages to common roots, or learn new ones--God scrambled languages after all, so we're not supposed to communicate.

 

Engineers better stop building newer or taller buildings, because that's a sign of hubris.

 

Military science might want to back off from scientific analysis and strategy, and just invest in horns, or depend on someone raising their arms to keep the sun in place.

 

If that sounds absurd, it should. And it's why I don't understand how many people can take exception to Christians like myself pointing out that the same underlying principles of observation, hypothesis, testing, conclusion, and so forth are what made these things possible, and what made a modern society possible.

 

If people trust science for all of that, and find no conflict with their religious beliefs therein, why does it suddenly become different with evolution?

 

It's not because the science is different.

 

*Applauds. Kowtows. Abases-self before you and your excellent reaction here!*

[Kathryn]

I think I love you.

 

With all due respect, Tinnie, people may believe what ever they wish regarding how the world got here, and everything in it. I'm a Christian, myself, so I believe in a divine Creator.

 

However, I believe that as God established the laws that run the universe, these laws are observable through our empirical senses. This is something that has been tested again, and again, and again, and again. This is the most elemental of understandings concerning science.

 

Therefore, if it is to be called scientific, it needs to be tested by the same rigorous model, the scientific method. If it is "proved" (although I hate that word--it's actually not one most scientists like) through various methods of gathering data and testing, and the results consistently bear similar results, then we have what's called a body of evidence. Not that you won't have the occasional outlier, a study or experiment that gives conflicting results. But that is why scientists plan and execute so many studies, from many different perspectives, in order to find the bell curve, so to speak, and establish what the big picture is telling us.

 

EVERYTHING that is predicated upon science, be it medicine to engineering to space flight to even the soft sciences, like social science relies upon this time tested method.

 

The Theory of Evolution is no different.

 

It hasn't been subjected to a different standard of science. It hasn't been rushed through a year's testing with the FDA and approved. :D

 

It's been studied by countless scientists, from every scientific discipline known: chemistry, biology, astronomy, geology, oceanography, zoology, and on and on. Every major branch agrees, because each one has yielded results that corroborate, build up, or give more detailed information on evolution. It's not just Darwin looked at birds on a remote island one day and wrote a book, and viola! It's all proved. No. It's been over a century's worth of scientific evidence building and building on it.

 

 

So, as far as science being God's thing? Yes, it is. That's why I don't choose to ignore the concrete evidence established over and over, through study of His laws, using the senses He gave us, to observe the cosmos.

 

That's why, if I have a choice, I'd rather have the surgeon work on me that is operating (pun totally intended) according to evidence-based medicine, rather than an understanding that is predicated upon rejecting such evidence, when it goes against his own personal, subjective, unprovable beliefs.

 

Same thing goes for linguists, engineers, etc. They may believe what they wish, but their work had better be founded in science--not what they read in Genesis. If they did, linguists would never attempt to deconstruct languages to common roots, or learn new ones--God scrambled languages after all, so we're not supposed to communicate.

 

Engineers better stop building newer or taller buildings, because that's a sign of hubris.

 

Military science might want to back off from scientific analysis and strategy, and just invest in horns, or depend on someone raising their arms to keep the sun in place.

 

If that sounds absurd, it should. And it's why I don't understand how many people can take exception to Christians like myself pointing out that the same underlying principles of observation, hypothesis, testing, conclusion, and so forth are what made these things possible, and what made a modern society possible.

 

If people trust science for all of that, and find no conflict with their religious beliefs therein, why does it suddenly become different with evolution?

 

It's not because the science is different.

[kalanamak]

 

The mockers will make life miserable for Christians who dare to think that they can enter the Holy Realm of Science.

 

I find this amusing, given the stats on how the general population feels about electing an atheist president. :) (And, let who without sin cast the first stone. To me, using the phrase "Holy Realm of Science" has a bit of mockery about it.)

 

To me the beef isn't evolution vs. no evolution but empirical discovery vs. looking at things with an eye for proving an already formed belief. I would look askance at someone spending their lives defending phlogiston, too. It is undetectable, and in that sense cannot be debated in a scientific way.

[kalanamak]

USC School of Medicine accepts BJU grads. Apparently they are more open minded than those committees who refuse to even open a BJU grad's application--unless, of course, it's to mock them.

 

This thread is really beginning to make my blood boil.

 

At this point, we know of only one committee. I've been on several committees. Some are productive, and some are not. Many of the former has some humor in them. Perhaps there was some humorous hyperbole there. I offer this as a gesture to remove your blood from the source of heat. ;)

[Wheres Toto]

With all due respect, Tinnie, people may believe what ever they wish regarding how the world got here, and everything in it. I'm a Christian, myself, so I believe in a divine Creator.

 

However, I believe that as God established the laws that run the universe, these laws are observable through our empirical senses. This is something that has been tested again, and again, and again, and again. This is the most elemental of understandings concerning science.

 

Therefore, if it is to be called scientific, it needs to be tested by the same rigorous model, the scientific method. If it is "proved" (although I hate that word--it's actually not one most scientists like) through various methods of gathering data and testing, and the results consistently bear similar results, then we have what's called a body of evidence. Not that you won't have the occasional outlier, a study or experiment that gives conflicting results. But that is why scientists plan and execute so many studies, from many different perspectives, in order to find the bell curve, so to speak, and establish what the big picture is telling us.

 

EVERYTHING that is predicated upon science, be it medicine to engineering to space flight to even the soft sciences, like social science relies upon this time tested method.

 

The Theory of Evolution is no different.

 

It hasn't been subjected to a different standard of science. It hasn't been rushed through a year's testing with the FDA and approved. :D

 

It's been studied by countless scientists, from every scientific discipline known: chemistry, biology, astronomy, geology, oceanography, zoology, and on and on. Every major branch agrees, because each one has yielded results that corroborate, build up, or give more detailed information on evolution. It's not just Darwin looked at birds on a remote island one day and wrote a book, and viola! It's all proved. No. It's been over a century's worth of scientific evidence building and building on it.

 

 

So, as far as science being God's thing? Yes, it is. That's why I don't choose to ignore the concrete evidence established over and over, through study of His laws, using the senses He gave us, to observe the cosmos.

 

That's why, if I have a choice, I'd rather have the surgeon work on me that is operating (pun totally intended) according to evidence-based medicine, rather than an understanding that is predicated upon rejecting such evidence, when it goes against his own personal, subjective, unprovable beliefs.

 

Same thing goes for linguists, engineers, etc. They may believe what they wish, but their work had better be founded in science--not what they read in Genesis. If they did, linguists would never attempt to deconstruct languages to common roots, or learn new ones--God scrambled languages after all, so we're not supposed to communicate.

 

Engineers better stop building newer or taller buildings, because that's a sign of hubris.

 

Military science might want to back off from scientific analysis and strategy, and just invest in horns, or depend on someone raising their arms to keep the sun in place.

 

If that sounds absurd, it should. And it's why I don't understand how many people can take exception to Christians like myself pointing out that the same underlying principles of observation, hypothesis, testing, conclusion, and so forth are what made these things possible, and what made a modern society possible.

 

If people trust science for all of that, and find no conflict with their religious beliefs therein, why does it suddenly become different with evolution?

 

It's not because the science is different.

 

:iagree:

 

Have you seen this:

http://pinterest.com/pin/259942209712419681/

[MinivanMom]

Is BJU a good school? What is its reputation in the secular world? Has your child ever taken online classes from BJU either while in high school or after graduating?

 

Returning to the original question.:001_smile:

 

We have been looking for a violin teacher. Several people recommended a local woman. She plays in a well-regarded orchestra and runs a private studio. I always do a little googling before making a call and discovered she had graduated from BJU. I never bothered to call her. We belong to a minority religion, so I just wouldn't feel comfortable leaving a child in the care of someone who graduated from a school that is so well known for their religious prejudice. Let me add that my kids' piano teacher is also an evangelical christian. She graduated from a small, all-girls Christian college. We adore her and I have never worried for a moment about the time my children spend with her. BJU is something different, though.

 

I don't buy the argument that perhaps they had no choice or their parents were only willing to pay for that particular college. My sil was a rebellious teenager, so my in-laws told her she had no choice but to attend a very conservative religious college. Only she was singled out for this "rule". Dh and his brother attended non-religious universities. She was not allowed to even apply to any other schools. She lasted a single semester and refused to return. There were some serious fireworks, but she marched herself down to the Army recruiter's office and signed up. She happily served her time overseas, used the G.I.bill to get her undergrad at a state univ, and then got her doctorate. Where there's a will, there's a way.

[Danestress]

obviously one is higher ranked that the other, but neither would be considered a really first tier medical school, and I am not sure the difference would be that significant to me.

[Danestress]

We are supposed to be legally protected from discrimination like that. The student's attendance there doesn't mean he is in lockstep with the university on every issue. It is just as rude as discrimination for any other issue.

 

To the person who asked about test scores - isn't there a standard test that all pre-med people need to take? It isn't as if BJU would have their students take some biased little test and say, "Now go apply for med school."

 

There is no constitutionally protected right to have an admissions department take your school seriously. If you go to an undergraduate program that the academic world considers a joke, the constitution will not help you out with that. But I am sure there will still be places for kids who go to those schools and are talented and capable. Just not EVERY place will be open. I think Jennifer made it clear that the decision included faithful Christians. It wasn't about being a Christian.

 

And as for text scores, I think it's probably like college. Large schools may sort people initially by scores on standardized test. But really first rates schools are distinguishing between lots of kids with close to perfect scores. So they may well dismiss outright a kid who has great standardized test scores but a second rate degree. Kids applying to medical school at Harvard discover rather quickly that there are far more applicants with perfect grades, almost perfect test scores, tons of great extra curricular activities etc than the school can accept. Some of them despite being awesome candidates, will get stuck at Duke. It's just reality.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Danestress

[Ellesmere]

Returning to the original question.:001_smile:

 

We have been looking for a violin teacher. Several people recommended a local woman. She plays in a well-regarded orchestra and runs a private studio. I always do a little googling before making a call and discovered she had graduated from BJU. I never bothered to call her. We belong to a minority religion, so I just wouldn't feel comfortable leaving a child in the care of someone who graduated from a school that is so well known for their religious prejudice. Let me add that my kids' piano teacher is also an evangelical christian. She graduated from a small, all-girls Christian college. We adore her and I have never worried for a moment about the time my children spend with her. BJU is something different, though.

 

I don't buy the argument that perhaps they had no choice or their parents were only willing to pay for that particular college. My sil was a rebellious teenager, so my in-laws told her she had no choice but to attend a very conservative religious college. Only she was singled out for this "rule". Dh and his brother attended non-religious universities. She was not allowed to even apply to any other schools. She lasted a single semester and refused to return. There were some serious fireworks, but she marched herself down to the Army recruiter's office and signed up. She happily served her time overseas, used the G.I.bill to get her undergrad at a state univ, and then got her doctorate. Where there's a will, there's a way.

I wouldn't leave my child in the care of someone that followed BJU, either. But I understand that some people grew up indoctrinated and didn't realize until much later what it was really all about. Some people have their will crushed and it takes time to build it back up. I don't know if anyone said that students go and have "no choice" but to attend that kind of school. However, I certainly understand people who felt they had to, even if that wasn't the reality. I know people who "had" to go and managed to get out of it somehow. And I know others who graduated from a BJU-like institution and if they could do it over, they would choose a more academically-sound, non-fundamentalist institution. (ETA: I'm glad your SIL had the knowledge and will to do so well for herself!)

Edited April 7, 2012 by Clairelise

[Word Nerd]

Well, I'm not of the mind that all state schools are terrible places to get an M.D., but the way I read Jennifer's post was: her dh applied to the top four, but their friends had a list of about 30 top medical schools. Those outside this group were considered substandard, but one school in particular "sucked." I didn't read it as all schools except four sucked.

 

The comment made it rather clear that her DH and his friends believe all schools except the top 10 or 15 "suck," considering that they would have even considered changing careers if they had been accepted only at one of those substandard schools.

Edited April 7, 2012 by WordGirl

[kalanamak]

To the person who asked about test scores - isn't there a standard test that all pre-med people need to take? It isn't as if BJU would have their students take some biased little test and say, "Now go apply for med school."

 

 

At least when I was going through the process, the MCATs were not the best predictor of success in med school. I believe at the time it was GPA in a challenging enough school. I knew someone with good MCATs and a 4.0 at a definitely not top-notch school (even he described it as a '4 year community college'). He didn't get an interview at any but the lowest tier state school, and some of the lowest privates. He ended up going to DO school.

 

I also recall reading a paper on what makes someone a "good doc" (as opposed to a "good med student"). It wasn't MCATs or GPAs or even the school. It had more to do with a decent training program and two qualities: following up on details and caring. (You could argue that products of good schools get good residencies, and they do. I applied the logic of buying stocks when they are down by getting into a very good program that was just starting to fall on hard times because it was peaking in a crime, TB, and AIDS area and their applications had plummeted. The great attendings were still there!)

 

( BTW, I didn't learn my trade in med school. There I got enough of an underpinning to have recognition (I've never seen Chagas disease, but I've heard of it, and it would cross my mind if I saw the right cluster of problems*), to have a UNIFORM language to communicate with other MDs, and enough exposure to the huge field that medicine is to see what I would be good at/like.

 

*however, if I'd gone into orthopedics, I might not think of it. You lose what you don't use, and this is one reason internists like myself use the phrase FOOBA for the middle of the night call from a surgical nurse about an old lady going blue: Found On Ortho Barely Alive. And here is where the "genius" doc is valuable. There ARE orthopods who remember the details of other fields, but there are plenty who don't. However, this effect can be blunted by the old "follows up on details and cares". An alert orthopod might notice that old Mrs. Smith's O2 sats are down a hair 2 days post-op, a classic time for a heart attack, and call in some one like me to look her over.

 

Say, I'm avoiding house work by pontificating on a subject that is somewhat close to my heart. :001_smile:)

[athomemom]

I don't approve of BJU and I'd never even use BJUP homeschool materials. If my son goes to school for anything science-related, and he is considering becoming a physician, he will go to a local secular university so he can live at home for the first few years.

 

That said, I've had it up to the eyeballs with atheists' and evolutionists' belief that they own science.

 

It isn't true.

 

Millions of people believe in a Creator God. Millions of people want a physician who acknowledges the Creator of Life and doesn't bow down to the gods of the age.

 

Doctors and scientists who believe in the God of the Christian Bible and deny the theory of evolution will certainly have to accommodate their instructors in college. They'll have to learn all of the theories and beliefs and perform on tests and exams as if they believe it all.

 

Doctors and scientists who believe in the God of the Christian Bible but find their beliefs allow for theistic evolution will also have to do a fair amount of people-pleasing to get through college. Even though they believe that God could have used evolution in some respects as part of the creation of the world, they'll be castigated and persecuted because they believe it all started with GOD.

 

The mockers will make life miserable for Christians who dare to think that they can enter the Holy Realm of Science. The Christians will have to somewhat comply, hide their beliefs, change schools...whatever it takes to endure the atheists' barbs for the time required to become physicians. The atheists, as evidenced in this thread, won't be satisfied to see all the scientists exposed and indoctrinated into their beliefs, able to give all the answers and explain all the theories. No. They want something more. They want all the scientists to BELIEVE as they do. Why? Because it is the faith of the atheist that there is no God. They want that belief to spread until it is believed everywhere.

 

But no one can make Christians believe that God is dead or never existed.

 

The Christians who pass the test will go on to become doctors and scientists and use their lives as doctors and scientists to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ Who was present at Creation and Who owns all of science.

 

No one can stop them if the LORD is on their side.

 

Millions of godless people shouting, "There is no GOD!" "Science belongs to us!" are nothing more than voices on the wind to those who do have faith. Their noise proves nothing. It does not erase faith. Millions of atheists are a lot, but One + God = A Majority. And there are many more than one who have not declared God dead and set up Man in His place.

 

We believe that science belongs to the One who made it all. His name is Jesus Christ, and he is our LORD. Therefore we have the right to study what He has made. The Creation does not belong to men. It belongs to Christ, and was made for His glory, that man might see Him in the world He has made.

 

I have a list of WTM posters here beside me who will soon be fomenting with rage at what I've posted. They'll be here within hours, with their mocking and derision. I don't care. I posted this for the Christian mothers whose children are being called by God to explore the world He made, who might be feeling intimidated by the atheists that inevitably post here to make Christians feel like nothing. I want them to know that there is no need to cower before strangers on the internet. There is no need to believe the lie that Christianity and Science are mutually exclusive.

 

He that is in us is stronger than he that is in the world.

 

:iagree: Thanks for posting this. I cannot write this well and I too am a Christian who believes in Creation and not evolution. I don't have a problem like most here with BJU though.

[cathmom]

I wouldn't leave my child in the care of someone that followed BJU, either. But I understand that some people grew up indoctrinated and didn't realize until much later what it was really all about. Some people have their will crushed and it takes time to build it back up. I don't know if anyone said that students go and have "no choice" but to attend that kind of school. However, I certainly understand people who felt they had to, even if that wasn't the reality. I know people who "had" to go and managed to get out of it somehow. And I know others who graduated from a BJU-like institution and if they could do it over, they would choose a more academically-sound, non-fundamentalist institution. (ETA: I'm glad your SIL had the knowledge and will to do so well for herself!)

 

My cousins had to go to BJU. It was their only option. My youngest cousin rebelled by dropping out to get married (which her parents agreed to after seeing it was futile to make her stay).

[athomemom]

Our son is attending BJU for nursing. Out of all the South Carolina nursing programs, Christian schools, state schools, tech schools, etc., BJU's pass rate on their graduate nursing exams is 100%. No other SC school has that distinction. That's why he picked BJU. Their graduates have the best reputation in the state.

 

PCC also has an awesome nursing program.

The wife should come in and the doc should speak to her. If she refused, the doc should call personally and assure the patient the visit is very important. S/he should take swabs, etc, inform about the disease and treatment, and encourage the patient to seek counseling with the husband rather than making a sudden decision. Kindly reassurance that many couples have gone down this path and recovered from it may have some sway. And then the doc should listen.

 

Thanks for the reply. It is reassuring to know there are some bits of sanity left in our medical system.

[Kathryn]

My cousins had to go to BJU. It was their only option. My youngest cousin rebelled by dropping out to get married (which her parents agreed to after seeing it was futile to make her stay).

 

I don't understand how someone "has" to go to a certain college. I'm assuming that means that's all their parents would pay for because I don't see how one can force an adult child to pay for and attend a college they didn't want to attend. Millions and millions of people have gone to college without their parents' financial support. If you find an institution morally repugnant, choosing to go there because someone else will pay for it isn't much better. My husband's cousins were told they "had" to attend BJU or Pensecola. One said no thanks, the other went to Pensecola for a semester and then left, paying her own way in the world.

[catz]

First, let it be clear that I'm a rather liberal secular homeschooler who wouldn't dream of supporting any institution such as BJU nor am I physician, I don't have any physicians in the family and my children are too young to even worry about high school yet much less college or med school so I don't have a dog in this fight so to speak.

 

But really? Geez. I live in a Big 10 town and almost every single doctor I've seen in the last 20 years is a graduate of the Big 10 state med school. The vast majority of doctors around graduated from the state university. I had no idea that we were all recieving such sub-par care from doctors who have questionably educations. :001_rolleyes:

 

Anything under the top 4 clearly "sucks?" That is probably one of the most elitist and snobbish statements that I've heard in a while.

 

:iagree: Jeez - I just found out our 2 local med schools rate in the 20's and 30's. But somehow the healthcare in our state is some of the best in the country and it's still extremely competitive to get into those 2 programs. I'm pretty comfortable with the quality of our doctors!

 

That said, I don't want a dr. whose religion colors their practice. I had a Jewish male doctor lambast me once because my uncircumcised son got a single bladder infection after a night of unauthorized Koolaid at his cousins and was afraid to get up and go to the bathroom in the middle of the night. He ordered a ton of unnecessary tests. Never will see him again.

 

I also recall reading a paper on what makes someone a "good doc" (as opposed to a "good med student"). It wasn't MCATs or GPAs or even the school. It had more to do with a decent training program and two qualities: following up on details and caring. )

 

Interesting. I'm sure there's quite a bit to this. I have a number of friends that went to med school and when you're in the throes of choosing a program for Med School, it's all about test scores, rankings, GPA's, etc. But at the end of the day, this is the stuff that really matters.

[kalanamak]

I don't understand how someone "has" to go to a certain college.

 

I knew a man who was the son and grandson of very prominent attorneys (if i mentioned the cases, you would have heard of them). He came from a family of money, grew up with blue blood, sent to the best schools, etc. He was informed that he HAD to go to college, an Ivy, or he would be disowned. No money, no support, no family gatherings, NOTHING.

 

He went. He passed. After graduation he loved to travel cheaply in the Orient, buy do-dads and flog them at street fairs in NYC. Later, I heard he married over there and there he lives. But he gets to go to family reunions.

 

Would you give up everything? Count yourself lucky (as I do) to not be from a family which uses these techniques. I believe his family thought he would go to an Ivy and catch their ambition. He didn't.

[Kathryn]

I knew a man who was the son and grandson of very prominent attorneys (if i mentioned the cases, you would have heard of them). He came from a family of money, grew up with blue blood, sent to the best schools, etc. He was informed that he HAD to go to college, an Ivy, or he would be disowned. No money, no support, no family gatherings, NOTHING.

 

He went. He passed. After graduation he loved to travel cheaply in the Orient, buy do-dads and flog them at street fairs in NYC. Later, I heard he married over there and there he lives. But he gets to go to family reunions.

 

Would you give up everything? Count yourself lucky (as I do) to not be from a family which uses these techniques. I believe his family thought he would go to an Ivy and catch their ambition. He didn't.

 

I am from a family like that. My father was disinherited from a very large sum of money and properties that then all went to his sister because of his choice to not follow his father's orders. His father also tried to groom my mother's brother to be his lackey, but he also refused the offer. There are plenty of people who won't trade their principles for a free ride. Those choices affected me. I'll be living in a cheap house paying off my student loans until I die while my cousins travel the world at the drop of a hat, got stellar paid-for educations, rub elbows with the elite regularly (one regularly babysat for the first Bush's grandchildren when the whole family would vacation), and don't give a second thought as to how they got there. But, I can't live my life being bitter that my grandfather was an ass or that my dad wasn't an ass-kisser.

[MinivanMom]

I don't understand how someone "has" to go to a certain college. I'm assuming that means that's all their parents would pay for because I don't see how one can force an adult child to pay for and attend a college they didn't want to attend. Millions and millions of people have gone to college without their parents' financial support. If you find an institution morally repugnant, choosing to go there because someone else will pay for it isn't much better. My husband's cousins were told they "had" to attend BJU or Pensecola. One said no thanks, the other went to Pensecola for a semester and then left, paying her own way in the world.

 

:iagree:

 

I have known situations where teens/young adults were threatened with disinheritence and/or being completely cut-off (from all contact) for not attending the correct school (or not attending the right church, marrying the right person, etc). It went far beyond the parents simply not being willing to pay tuition or support them financially. However, those parents could not force their adult children to do anything. Those kids still had a choice. Those that were cut-off (emotionally) never regretted it for a second. They had the pride of making it on their own and were free of their controlling, manipulative parents. What more commonly happens, in my experience, is that the parents will cut off money, but will continue to maintain contact with the adult children in order to harass them and try to manipulate them. Sadly, they probably would have been better off if their parents had cut-off all contact.

 

No one can make you go to college or make you attend a particular college.

[Ellesmere]

:iagree:

 

I have known situations where teens/young adults were threatened with disinheritence and/or being completely cut-off (from all contact) for not attending the correct school (or not attending the right church, marrying the right person, etc). It went far beyond the parents simply not being willing to pay tuition or support them financially. However, those parents could not force their adult children to do anything. Those kids still had a choice. Those that were cut-off (emotionally) never regretted it for a second. They had the pride of making it on their own and were free of their controlling, manipulative parents. What more commonly happens, in my experience, is that the parents will cut off money, but will continue to maintain contact with the adult children in order to harass them and try to manipulate them. Sadly, they probably would have been better off if their parents had cut-off all contact.

 

No one can make you go to college or make you attend a particular college.

 

I agree that people have choices, but there are other experiences. Some kids are not strong enough or they do not know enough of the world outside of fundamentalism to see that they do have a choice. I am always thrilled to hear about people who find a way out and can stand up to controlling families. But I sympathize with those who don't feel like or don't realize they have a choice.

 

And, no, I did not grow up in that kind of family or go to anything like a BJU or PCC-type of school.

 

My cousins had to go to BJU. It was their only option. My youngest cousin rebelled by dropping out to get married (which her parents agreed to after seeing it was futile to make her stay).

 

I know of someone who eloped her way out of PCC. Getting out of colleges like that can be tough.

[kalanamak]

I am from a family like that. My father was disinherited from a very large sum of money and properties that then all went to his sister because of his choice to not follow his father's orders.

 

In my friend's situation, the family was generally non-toxic, and he lived through going to an Ivy. Some families never quit. They control and control and control. I think this family just thought, like kidnapping a child from a druggy house and sending them to rehab, this kid was having a rebellious adolescence which would pass if he would just stay on the path a little longer, and he'd get the family's ambition. When it didn't work, they didn't press the point but kept their promise about "just do this for us". I'm sure they meant it to be for him, not them. But he did feel forced.

 

Not all children who toe the line and get the financial benefit of rich parents just jet about being rich. Some pursue passions like music or working for very little for a charitable organization. If independent wealth plopped into my lap, I don't think I'd be unproductive. One of my favorite says is: "Money doesn't change a man, it makes him more like himself."

 

But perhaps if one ends up not complying and living a labor-filled and indebted life, one must feel hoeing one's own row is very admirable. I am, of course, not speaking of anyone on this thread, whom I would not presume to be knowledgeable enough about to point a finger.

[TXMary2]

I don't approve of BJU and I'd never even use BJUP homeschool materials. If my son goes to school for anything science-related, and he is considering becoming a physician, he will go to a local secular university so he can live at home for the first few years.

 

That said, I've had it up to the eyeballs with atheists' and evolutionists' belief that they own science.

 

It isn't true.

 

Millions of people believe in a Creator God. Millions of people want a physician who acknowledges the Creator of Life and doesn't bow down to the gods of the age.

 

Doctors and scientists who believe in the God of the Christian Bible and deny the theory of evolution will certainly have to accommodate their instructors in college. They'll have to learn all of the theories and beliefs and perform on tests and exams as if they believe it all.

 

Doctors and scientists who believe in the God of the Christian Bible but find their beliefs allow for theistic evolution will also have to do a fair amount of people-pleasing to get through college. Even though they believe that God could have used evolution in some respects as part of the creation of the world, they'll be castigated and persecuted because they believe it all started with GOD.

 

The mockers will make life miserable for Christians who dare to think that they can enter the Holy Realm of Science. The Christians will have to somewhat comply, hide their beliefs, change schools...whatever it takes to endure the atheists' barbs for the time required to become physicians. The atheists, as evidenced in this thread, won't be satisfied to see all the scientists exposed and indoctrinated into their beliefs, able to give all the answers and explain all the theories. No. They want something more. They want all the scientists to BELIEVE as they do. Why? Because it is the faith of the atheist that there is no God. They want that belief to spread until it is believed everywhere.

 

But no one can make Christians believe that God is dead or never existed.

 

The Christians who pass the test will go on to become doctors and scientists and use their lives as doctors and scientists to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ Who was present at Creation and Who owns all of science.

 

No one can stop them if the LORD is on their side.

 

Millions of godless people shouting, "There is no GOD!" "Science belongs to us!" are nothing more than voices on the wind to those who do have faith. Their noise proves nothing. It does not erase faith. Millions of atheists are a lot, but One + God = A Majority. And there are many more than one who have not declared God dead and set up Man in His place.

 

We believe that science belongs to the One who made it all. His name is Jesus Christ, and he is our LORD. Therefore we have the right to study what He has made. The Creation does not belong to men. It belongs to Christ, and was made for His glory, that man might see Him in the world He has made.

 

I have a list of WTM posters here beside me who will soon be fomenting with rage at what I've posted. They'll be here within hours, with their mocking and derision. I don't care. I posted this for the Christian mothers whose children are being called by God to explore the world He made, who might be feeling intimidated by the atheists that inevitably post here to make Christians feel like nothing. I want them to know that there is no need to cower before strangers on the internet. There is no need to believe the lie that Christianity and Science are mutually exclusive.

 

He that is in us is stronger than he that is in the world.

 

 

AMEN and AMEN!!! Thank you!

[FO4UR]

I would love to find a christian college that had a good reputation with not only christians but with the secular world as well.

 

 

I highly recommend Hannibal LaGrange University.

[TXMary2]

There is no constitutionally protected right to have an admissions department take your school seriously. If you go to an undergraduate program that the academic world considers a joke, the constitution will not help you out with that. But I am sure there will still be places for kids who go to those schools and are talented and capable. Just not EVERY place will be open. I think Jennifer made it clear that the decision included faithful Christians. It wasn't about being a Christian.

 

And as for text scores, I think it's probably like college. Large schools may sort people initially by scores on standardized test. But really first rates schools are distinguishing between lots of kids with close to perfect scores. So they may well dismiss outright a kid who has great standardized test scores but a second rate degree. Kids applying to medical school at Harvard discover rather quickly that there are far more applicants with perfect grades, almost perfect test scores, tons of great extra curricular activities etc than the school can accept. Some of them despite being awesome candidates, will get stuck at Duke. It's just reality.

 

 

However, there are laws that say we cannot be discriminated against in any aspect of because of age, disability, national origin, race, religion or sex.

 

So, you can say it was because of academics, but clearly most people's disdain for BJU is becuase of religious beliefs. Again, I don't support BJU's past, nor would I suggest the school to my children, but discrimination like this is against the law.

[Lady Florida.]

However, there are laws that say we cannot be discriminated against in any aspect of because of age, disability, national origin, race, religion or sex.

 

So, you can say it was because of academics, but clearly most people's disdain for BJU is becuase of religious beliefs. Again, I don't support BJU's past, nor would I suggest the school to my children, but discrimination like this is against the law.

 

 

No, it isn't against the law. If it was, my atheist son would be allowed to be a Boy Scout.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think you're mixing up evolution, abiogenesis, and religion. How the universe came about and evolution are two completely separate subjects.

 

I agree. I am a Christian. I believe in evolution. I don't believe that abiogenesis is a good answer; I believe in a guiding Creator. My belief in a guiding Creator is not science and never will be. Faith is a defining element of religious belief. It is not testable. Science is testable. One has nothing to so with the other.

 

So, some secular people think BJU is a joke. So what? Some of those people obviously have derision for state medical schools as well. Oh well. Obviously, some BJU grads have managed to get advanced degrees at other schools. If you plan on going into research science, does it behoove you to go to a top school? Of course. Is it better to attend an academically respected school over community college or a degree factory school, if you plan on entering a competitive field? Of course. Caveat emptor. That is why the OP asked, and she received a spectrum of good answers.

 

Insisting that believing in evolution means that you are godless is pretty rude, especially in a group where there are past wounds in that arena. I am pretty sure PHP didn't appreciate those claims aimed at them last year.

 

From Billy Graham:

*I don't think that there's any conflict at all between science today and the Scriptures. I think that we have misinterpreted the Scriptures many times and we've tried to make the Scriptures say things they weren't meant to say, I think that we have made a mistake by thinking the Bible is a scientific book. The Bible is not a book of science. The Bible is a book of Redemption, and of course I accept the Creation story. I believe that God did create the universe. I believe that God created man, and whether it came by an evolutionary process and at a certain point He took this person or being and made him a living soul or not, does not change the fact that God did create man. ... whichever way God did it makes no difference as to what man is and man's relationship to God.

[ma23peas]

No, it isn't against the law. If it was, my atheist son would be allowed to be a Boy Scout.

 

There is no prevention from an atheist becoming a Boy Scout, but the organization is protected in assuring their leaders profess faith. Just as with American Heritage Girls..girls do not have to profess faith but the leaders do.

 

I was pre-med, scored extremely well on my MCATs (opted not to continue on was called in another direction)...I have NO problems with BJUs texts...My children all used the Biology text, it was wonderful for a high school program. We used other publishers for Chemistry and Physics..but from a science major...their texts were fine and the kids score well on science sections on testing..

[Spy Car]

 

So, you can say it was because of academics, but clearly most people's disdain for BJU is becuase of religious beliefs. Again, I don't support BJU's past, nor would I suggest the school to my children, but discrimination like this is against the law.

 

Nonsense. People have disdain for BJU because they have a long history of failing to act morally by promoting institutional racism and bigotry. Even BJU—under pressure—admitted it policies were racist and an example of following a "segregationist cultural" ideology that clashed with Christian values (values they failed to follow). That is epic failure.

 

Bill

[QueenCat]

Nonsense. People have disdain for BJU because they have a long history of failing to act morally by promoting institutional racism and bigotry. Even BJU—under pressure—admitted it policies were racist and an example of following a "segregationist cultural" ideology that clashed with Christian values (values they failed to follow). That is epic failure.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:Most people that I know who have a disdain for BJU, have such disdain due to their very modern (i.e. interracial dating was banned until 2000) institutionally sanctioned racism.

[Michelle My Bell]

Just checking in to see how my thread is going. Wow....

However, there are laws that say we cannot be discriminated against in any aspect of because of age, disability, national origin, race, religion or sex.

 

So, you can say it was because of academics, but clearly most people's disdain for BJU is becuase of religious beliefs. Again, I don't support BJU's past, nor would I suggest the school to my children, but discrimination like this is against the law.

 

Am I the only person here who sees the irony in complaining about religious discrimination against graduates of a university that won't accept Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Unitarians, Jews, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, followers of Billy Graham, and who knows what else?

[DawnM]

I would start by looking at the Christian College Consortium schools.

 

http://www.ccconsortium.org/member-institutions/

 

I went to one of these schools for undergrad and I personally feel I got an excellent education.

 

The nice thing about these too is that if you choose to go to another school (transfer or go for a semester, etc...) the credits automatically transfer, or at least they did when I was a part of it.

 

Dawn

 

 

I am a christian, but this is what I was concerned about. I would love to find a christian college that had a good reputation with not only christians but with the secular world as well. I had no idea BJU had/has so many issues. Thanks everyone!

[FO4UR]

I would start by looking at the Christian College Consortium schools.

 

http://www.ccconsortium.org/member-institutions/

 

I went to one of these schools for undergrad and I personally feel I got an excellent education.

 

The nice thing about these too is that if you choose to go to another school (transfer or go for a semester, etc...) the credits automatically transfer, or at least they did when I was a part of it.

 

Dawn

 

I looked at Asbury and Greenville before going to Hannibal LaGrange. :001_smile: I went to all-state music camps through high school at Greenville. Good memories.:001_smile:

 

HLG is accredited and credits transfer to and from there too...and there are more. There is a school in Campbellsville, KY that I know of (I know a former prof.). There is the school in Bolivar, MO and there is MoBap in St Louis. I know there are more, but I'm obviously from the midwest so these are the ones I'm familiar with.

 

Oh, and Southeastern Seminary has a bach program now too. Some of the others might too, but the year my dh graduated with his MDIV I outlawed the looking at degree programs until my babies are college-bound.:tongue_smilie:

 

 

At any school, you have to visit...and talk to alumni.;)

[Haiku]

Nonsense. People have disdain for BJU because they have a long history of failing to act morally by promoting institutional racism and bigotry.

 

That. I couldn't care less that BJU is a Christian school. As I mentioned, my husband graduated from a Christian school, and we have encouraged our 17 year old to consider going there (and as regulars here know, we are not Christian). BJU is a racist institution with a reputation for less than stellar academics. My disdain for them is because of their racism and bigotry. Others' is for their low academic standing. The original post that mentioned tossing BJU applications (and the further explanatory ones) were about academic issues, not religious ones.

 

Just because I am nerdy enough to think of doing so, I conducted a poll at work today. I worked for seven hours; I asked three people each hour a question, and I tallied their answers on a piece of paper with categories for "Positive," "Negative," and "Neutral/No Opinion." Because I tend to have regular customers that I chat with, I mostly asked my regular customers. The question was, "What is your impression of Cedarville University?" I ended up with 12 negatives, 5 neutral/no opinions, and 4 positives. I talked to one woman who was a CU graduate who told me that the got a good education there but that "the environment was a little, y'know, stifling." I put her in the Positive column because she said she got a good education. So according to my completely unscientific poll, 57% had a negative impression, which confirms my earlier take on the general attitude around here. I know that my poll is meaningless; it's limited to certain customers of a certain store in a certain neighborhood on a certain day. It was just fun to do because I was bored at work at 9 this morning and I was thinking about this thread.

 

Tara

[DawnM]

Yes, I know credits transfer from schools but there is something with the CCC that allows you to transfer them automatically without needing to apply for them to transfer. This is particularly useful in the last half of your college career. At least this was the case when I went, which was MANY, MANY moons ago.

 

I know nothing about HLG as I actually had never heard of it before. But I am not that familiar with mid-west schools.

 

Dawn

 

I looked at Asbury and Greenville before going to Hannibal LaGrange. :001_smile: I went to all-state music camps through high school at Greenville. Good memories.:001_smile:

 

HLG is accredited and credits transfer to and from there too...and there are more. There is a school in Campbellsville, KY that I know of (I know a former prof.). There is the school in Bolivar, MO and there is MoBap in St Louis. I know there are more, but I'm obviously from the midwest so these are the ones I'm familiar with.

 

Oh, and Southeastern Seminary has a bach program now too. Some of the others might too, but the year my dh graduated with his MDIV I outlawed the looking at degree programs until my babies are college-bound.:tongue_smilie:

 

 

At any school, you have to visit...and talk to alumni.;)

[JFSinIL]

As a secular homeschooler the first thing that comes to mind is bigotry. It's safe to say that my worldview is pretty much the complete opposite of everything they represent. I wouldn't give them a dime of my money or support.

 

Yup!

[Danestress]

Do you honestly believe that BJU has to admit a the Iman of a radical Muslim mosque because he took the SAT and did well, and his GPA was awesome?

 

Of course not.

 

Because there IS NOT LAW that says you cant be discriminated against based on those criteria. There is a law that says that the government can't do so, but Medical school are not the government. And those anti discrimination laws have been extended to all kinds of private entitles via the commerce clause and other avenues. And of course, the federal government can use it's financial power to prevent schools who take federal grant money from discriminating based on those criteria. The Federal Govt actually tried to revoke BJU's tax exempt status because of it's racially discriminatory policey. So I guess it's complicated..

 

But in the end, I don't think this was religious discrimination. From what Jennifer posted, I think it was academic snobbery. "We aren't interested in your second rate degree regardless of your MCAT scores."

[Haiku]

 

That said, I've had it up to the eyeballs with atheists' and evolutionists' belief that they own science.

 

I'm certainly not enraged, as you said people would be, but neither do I believe the quoted is true. Scientists own science. Science is based on observable and testable facts, not fervently held beliefs. I am religious (although not Christian). I have no problem with the idea that science and religion/faith are separate things. I don't feel the need to have the one reinforce the other. If my religion were testable and observable in a scientific way, it would no longer be religion or faith. It would be science. And that's ok, because faith is faith for a reason.

 

Tara

Edited April 7, 2012 by TaraTheLiberator

[TXMary2]

No, it isn't against the law. If it was, my atheist son would be allowed to be a Boy Scout.

 

Well, that's interesting. My athiest son hasn't been kicked out of his troop and is in fact a Life Scout moving on to Eagle this year. His Scoutmaster and his friends all know his feelings, but he doesn't act confrontational or hostile when the troop closes with prayer or recites the oath. I am not saying that is what your son did, but if my son was being hostile or complaining about it in any way I would expect someone to say he was free to go elsewhere!

[TXMary2]

Am I the only person here who sees the irony in complaining about religious discrimination against graduates of a university that won't accept Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Unitarians, Jews, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, followers of Billy Graham, and who knows what else?

 

 

It is a RELIGIOUS educatuional institution - why would any of the groups you mentioned WANT to attend there? Especially based on all the "facts" being tossed around about them. A public university has no business discriminating against someone for religous beliefs. Try again!

[Mrs Mungo]

Am I the only person here who sees the irony in complaining about religious discrimination against graduates of a university that won't accept Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Unitarians, Jews, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, followers of Billy Graham, and who knows what else?

 

It is a RELIGIOUS educatuional institution - why would any of the groups you mentioned WANT to attend there? Especially based on all the "facts" being tossed around about them. A public university has no business discriminating against someone for religous beliefs. Try again!

 

Read that post again. She said your views were ironic. She did not say your views were accurate. Public universities can and do "discriminate" against low-quality educational institutions. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with academics. As others have said many times, there are plenty of religious colleges that are not automatically dismissed due to such a discriminator.

[kalanamak]

His Scoutmaster and his friends all know his feelings, but he doesn't act confrontational or hostile when the troop closes with prayer or recites the oath.

 

http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsoath.asp

 

I know that many non-believers are indifferent to oaths like this, but some of us decline to pay lip service, either out of respect for those with sincere religious beliefs, out of a sense of honesty, or because one wishes to point out that religion is out of place in a given situation (in my life, I've declined such oaths for all of those reasons).

 

I didn't feel like being a test case for the local group by having kiddo leave out the God in the oath. He didn't want to include it, and I didn't want to make a stink. So, kiddo didn't join.

 

Can boys advance that far without ever reciting the oath? I was under the impression it was one of the first steps! I did ask, obliquely, in an email to the troop, but never got a reply.

[Ipsey]

Well, that's interesting. My athiest son hasn't been kicked out of his troop and is in fact a Life Scout moving on to Eagle this year. His Scoutmaster and his friends all know his feelings, but he doesn't act confrontational or hostile when the troop closes with prayer or recites the oath. I am not saying that is what your son did, but if my son was being hostile or complaining about it in any way I would expect someone to say he was free to go elsewhere!

 

I don't know what FloridaMom's experience has been, but I can share what's going on in my family right now.

 

My 9-year-old is a sweet, shy boy, and he wants to make friends. He wants to be in Boy Scouts, but when he learned the pledge from a friend, he came home and asked me if he had to believe in a god.

 

I said that it was a part of the pledge, and Boy Scouts were expected to believe in a god, yes.

 

I could watch him mull it over.

 

"I could lie when I say it," he said. Then, his face fell, and he almost started crying. He didn't want to lie to be in a club. (Take that, people who say atheists have no morals! :) )

 

He could just not say the "duty to God" part, as my atheist husband did as a Scout, I guess.

 

Or, he could say it and not mean it (which none of us want him to do).

 

Or, we could persuade him to believe in a god (though we wouldn't try to do that any more than we'd try to get him to believe in. . . oh, other myths).

 

I have strong feelings about not supporting Boy Scouts because of their anti-gay stance. . .but we're in a small town, and my boy really needs something.

 

This makes me kind of sad for him, and frustrated for me that I'm caving on some of my own convictions for the sake of others for the sake of my son's well being. :(

 

So, I guess, come fall, there will be one more atheist Boy Scout somewhere in the rural US.

[kalanamak]

A public university has no business discriminating against someone for religous beliefs. Try again!

 

Do we know that the committee that flung the application away was a public medical school?

[Danestress]

You are entitled to your own beliefs, but are not entitled to your own facts? Something like that.

 

I don't think that Jennifer said her husband is associated with a public university. I also don't think Jennifer said the decision was based upon rejecting religious beliefs of the applicants.

 

I can see how angry this discussion is making you. I honestly believe that if two months from now, you reread this thread, you will feel a little embarrassed that you insisted this was about the religious beliefs of BJU grads instead of the perception that their education is inferior. Whether their education actually is inferior nor not, I have no idea. I also don't know if Harvard's education is as great as we tend to think. But I do know that the *perception* in most of academia is that BJU is half rate and Harvard is the real deal, and unfortunately, perceptions are important in academia. I think that was clearly Jennifer's point if you read it again. Perhaps there is some religious discrimination going on. But the admissions committee would never have to defend that, because it would be pretty believable that the decision was based on the perceived quality of the undergraduate education.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Danestress

[kalanamak]

"We aren't interested in your second rate degree regardless of your MCAT scores."

 

But MCATs have a low predictive value of a person's later professional career. Really. They are a hurdle to see if you are willing to put in the time needed (or are at least someone with a photographic memory who tests well). I got three "study for the MCATs" books, put every bit on a huge stack of flash cards, and spent a 45 minute each-way commute on the subway memorizing those cards -- at least 6 days a week. For a year. (Scratch, scratch, scratch) ... that's 624 hours! If I hadn't done well after that, I would have quit. If it couldn't ace them after 624 hours, I was not cut out for med school!

 

 

MCATs, like orgo, are weeders, not an assurance of a spot.

 

My point it that is isn't snobbery to say we aren't interested in your second rate degree regardless of your MCAT scores. MCAT is one test. A degree was in the cooking for 4 years.

Edited April 8, 2012 by kalanamak

[mommaduck]

Am I the only person here who sees the irony in complaining about religious discrimination against graduates of a university that won't accept Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Unitarians, Jews, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, followers of Billy Graham, and who knows what else?

 

Not only are they not accepted, but heaven forbid that anyone (student or professor) get caught reading or discussing any materials from any of those groups, including (maybe especially LOL!) books written by Calvinists :tongue_smilie:(those in the know, know)

Edited April 8, 2012 by mommaduck

It is a RELIGIOUS educatuional institution - why would any of the groups you mentioned WANT to attend there? Especially based on all the "facts" being tossed around about them. A public university has no business discriminating against someone for religous beliefs. Try again!

 

Let me try to be clearer here. No, there is no time. Let me try to sum up.

 

I believe that the original poster whose DH summarily dismissed applicants from BJU wasn't doing it from religious prejudice, but because of the academic reputation of the institution. This reputation mainly stems from the kerfluffle around inter-racial dating. Now, I have no idea what the academic qualities of BJU really are, but as I try to teach my kids, reputations are delicate things to cultivate, and once destroyed, take a long time to repair.

 

I pointed out that BJU clearly won't accept applicants from all kinds of religious faiths, including most Christian denominations. As danestress correctly commented, this is perfectly legal, and I don't have a problem with it.

 

Nonetheless, if you do believe (as I don't) that the med school applicants at the unnamed university were rejected for religious reason, it is completely hypocritical to complain that this unnamed university is illegally discriminating against all Christians, and to have this discrimination cause your blood to boil. If you believe that BJU can legally accept only certain kinds of Baptists, you shouldn't have any problem allowing some other school to only allow non-Baptists. (Again, I don't believe that's actually what's happening, but just for the sake of the argument.) That's just consistent.