Help With Spiritual/Religious Struggles...

[Hunter's Moon]

I’ve posted before on this topic and I have gotten great advice, so I figured I’d give it another shot.

 

I am quite unsure of my beliefs at this time. I am pretty sure there is a God, but I can’t say for sure. I love meaningful ritual and thought I had found my home in the Episcopal Church. I attended both Rite I and Rite II and loved Rite I more since it was more intimate (less people since it is at 8AM).

 

I feel like a phony attending though since I don’t really know where I stand with my beliefs. I am almost 100% certain there is a God. I pray, read lots of religious/spiritual content, etc. but I don’t know what I believe. I do know what I DON’T believe, if that makes sense, but I won’t post those since it might offend some.

 

I attended a Unitarian Universalist church but they were too free flowing for me. There was a flow to the service, but not much ritual. I do love the Religious Education though and even though I don’t have kids now, when I do I believe that is something I would like them to grow with.

 

There are so many problems I have with my birth religion (Christianity) and the only way I could accept it is to be really liberal. I feel like a hypocrite in the Episcopal Church since I can’t really say the prayers with conviction, but I feel I need ritual. I attended an Eastern Orthodox Church and loved the ritual, the icons, and just the overwhelming feeling of love and peace. But, I couldn’t agree with a lot of their theology.

 

I feel so lost and hurt. There are so many things in the Bible I struggle with that I feel like “if I can’t accept this, this, and this, then I really don’t love God and don’t deserve Him.†I don’t know what to do. I’ve tried so hard to research the different issues, but I feel like I am picking and choosing what to believe and I don’t feel okay with that. I cannot accept that I just have to accept those things because they lead me to see God in a bad light, and I don’t want to. I want to have the loving relationship so many others seem to have with God, but I feel like the Bible is standing in my way.

 

Please don’t bash me for any of this because I truly am struggling and feel so lost. I am having trouble articulating how I truly feel, especially since I feel I have to censor some things because I don’t want to offend. Maybe organized religion just isn’t for me, but I so badly want it to be. What would you do in my situation?

[ktgrok]

Maybe this very old quote will help. "If you understand it, it isn't God." NONE of us understand it properly. None of us believe exactly right. God is really unknowable. We all just struggle along the best we can. Would you feel comfortable going to the Episcopal church and just not saying the creed? Lots of people don't say it.

 

Or...if it is the Jesus aspect, but not the God aspect, that is the problem, perhaps a different monotheistic religion? Would a reform jewish home be more appropriate? Still ritual, but different?

[ktgrok]

OH, and reread Mere Christianity, ASAP. It really is always the best balm for my spiritual troubles.

[Joanne]

:grouphug:

 

Many tender, understanding hugs.

 

I struggle answering this post, because it would become a litany of what I believe/don't believe. I, too, struggle with finding a "church feel" but without the things (theology) that I can't authentically embrace.

 

You are NOT alone. There are several of us here.

[KirstenH]

I would pray. I would pray a lot. If God exists (and I believe He does), He'll answer you one way or another.

 

Reading is also very helpful. Try the works of Henri Nouwen if you want to read someone from a very liturgical background (Catholic, but his books are accessible to any Christian believer, or even anyone with a monotheistic understanding of God) who focuses on the love and the relationship of religious belief. His stuff is awesome when you're feeling lost or broken.

[Hunter's Moon]

Maybe this very old quote will help. "If you understand it, it isn't God." NONE of us understand it properly. None of us believe exactly right. God is really unknowable. We all just struggle along the best we can. Would you feel comfortable going to the Episcopal church and just not saying the creed? Lots of people don't say it.

 

Or...if it is the Jesus aspect, but not the God aspect, that is the problem, perhaps a different monotheistic religion? Would a reform jewish home be more appropriate? Still ritual, but different?

 

I have considered Reform Judaism, but a lot of my issues with the characteristics of God stem from the OT.

 

OH, and reread Mere Christianity, ASAP. It really is always the best balm for my spiritual troubles.

 

Thanks for the reminder. I'll pick it up at the library tomorrow. :001_smile:

 

:grouphug:

 

Many tender, understanding hugs.

 

I struggle answering this post, because it would become a litany of what I believe/don't believe. I, too, struggle with finding a "church feel" but without the things (theology) that I can't authentically embrace.

 

You are NOT alone. There are several of us here.

 

:grouphug: Thanks for reminding me I am not alone. I think my biggest issue is separating God and theology. I see them so intertwined that it hurts my relationship with God and I begin to feel inadequate because I cannot accept what Christians call His Word.

 

I would pray. I would pray a lot. If God exists (and I believe He does), He'll answer you one way or another.

 

Reading is also very helpful. Try the works of Henri Nouwen if you want to read someone from a very liturgical background (Catholic, but his books are accessible to any Christian believer, or even anyone with a monotheistic understanding of God) who focuses on the love and the relationship of religious belief. His stuff is awesome when you're feeling lost or broken.

 

Thank you for the suggestion. My library has quite a few of his books, so I'll check them out. :001_smile:

[Paz]

I think these feeling may be more common than you think, especially for someone who is a deep thinker, as you seem to be. Is the priest at your church open to a meeting? Would you feel comfortable talking with him? I know that the pastor of church that we attend, not so regularly, would be open with someone talking with him about these things and would be super encouraging and not judgemental. I believe we are all at different places in our faith and find God in various ways. There may not be a church that we can agree with on everything but the attendance and the attempt to worship and to find truth in a way that feels comfortable to you are what matters. I believe God honors our small attempts to love and honor Him and doesn't expect us to have it all figured out. I felt very sure and comfortable in my beliefs about 10 years ago. The older I get, the more I realize I have so little of it figured out.

[Ester Maria]

Have you tried studying religion in a more general way, studying different religions (including those that do not somehow stem from the Bible) and their texts, perhaps trying to attend a service or two "as a tourist" or speaking with people who practice them? This can be quite an interesting experience because it allows you to see the place you started from with different eyes... it can also help you pinpoint what you struggle with.

 

I am not sure about feeling "phony" on services - I think attending them for the sole aesthetics / feel of it is not necessarily a morally corrupted thing, in an open, embracing environment. Does it have to be an "all or nothing" package? When you join a church / denomination, are you obliged to go by their opinions in all matters, or can you still sort many things out on your own? You do not even have to HAVE a fixed opinion on many things now, and it is very normal that you are uncomfortable with much of it.

[Twigs]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[mommaduck]

no advice, just :grouphug:

[ktgrok]

I have considered Reform Judaism, but a lot of my issues with the characteristics of God stem from the OT.

 

 

 

 

ah. Well...I would remember that it is ok, from an Episcopal (and many other denominations) standpoint to look at the OT as the best the people of the time could explain things. That it was written by people, not by God. That it tells of God's doings in a way that made sense to the people of the time. That people may have misunderstood things that happened, or wrongly attributed things to God that weren't his. Or maybe God spoke to the people on the level they could handle in a framework they could understand.

 

I wouldn't let details overwhelm the experience of God.

[JenniferB]

:grouphug:

 

Faith struggles are so tough. I went through a big struggle about two years ago. I found my new home in Orthodox Christianity. My trouble had more to do with Bible interpretations than the Bible itself. I couldn't find satisfactory explanation of the words of Jesus. I found the words of Jesus the most troubling. Through the lenses of the OC and the lives of the Saints, the words of Jesus finally make some sense to me. It's still a constant struggle though. Christianity is full of struggle. We struggle to attain the communion with God we long for. I hope you find your peace with God. I agree with the other poster who said we can't know and understand everything. There are many mysteries. May I suggest reading the Gospels over and over? Jesus shows us God in the flesh. He has the words of life.

[Mallorie]

.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Mallorie

[JenniferB]

I have considered Reform Judaism, but a lot of my issues with the characteristics of God stem from the OT.

 

You are not alone with this either. My DH has a bunch if trouble with the OT, especially parts where the writer says that it was God who caused some terrible outcome. For my DH, though he has a lot of inner conflict with Christianity, and the Bible, it comes down to communion with God, and participating in that communion. The OC puts a major focus on communion, and they allow some room for differences in some areas. They focus on the OT passages that point us to Christ and communion with God.

[Melinda in VT]

Have you read any Marcus Borg?

 

And, if you are feeling too liberal for the Episcopalian church, you might read some John Shelby Sprong. And I second (third?) the advice to talk to the priest. My bet is that you'll be surprised at the number of people in church with you who can relate to what you are feeling and thinking.

 

I'm pretty sure I would be one of them. ;)

 

:grouphug:

[Ellie]

I feel like a phony attending though since I don’t really know where I stand with my beliefs.

:grouphug:

 

Don't feel like a phony, dear. Where else would you go to learn about God, if not to church? It's ok to not know where you stand with your beliefs. You keep going to church until you do.

 

Have you talked privately with a pastor?

[Excelsior! Academy]

Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be opened unto you.

 

God will reveal Himself to those who are truly seeking. Have you read the Bible? It can be difficult in it's entirety. Get a good translation. The Daily Bible is a chronological Bible so it helps to put events into context. It uses NIV which is not the most literal word for word but does a pretty thorough job of whole thoughts. After reading the Bible you can start seeking likeminded Chirstians and churches who worship similarly to what you read. Pm if you want to discuss further.

[Mergath]

It's hard when the things you believe and the way you see God don't match up to any of the religions around you. :grouphug: You might consider reading about different world religions to see if any of their philosophies click with you. Even if you don't find a perfect fit, it can help you solidify those feelings you have about God into an actual statement about what you believe.

 

I don't think there's any one way to God that's the right and true way for everyone. I've always felt that religion is a mountain, and we each have to find our own path to the top, to know the Divine. The way we go and the scenery on the way will differ greatly, but we're all headed to the same destination. The hardest part is trying to enjoy the walk, because we're always worried about finding a path that's quicker or has more people on it. ;)

[Hunter's Moon]

I think these feeling may be more common than you think, especially for someone who is a deep thinker, as you seem to be. Is the priest at your church open to a meeting? Would you feel comfortable talking with him? I know that the pastor of church that we attend, not so regularly, would be open with someone talking with him about these things and would be super encouraging and not judgemental. I believe we are all at different places in our faith and find God in various ways. There may not be a church that we can agree with on everything but the attendance and the attempt to worship and to find truth in a way that feels comfortable to you are what matters. I believe God honors our small attempts to love and honor Him and doesn't expect us to have it all figured out. I felt very sure and comfortable in my beliefs about 10 years ago. The older I get, the more I realize I have so little of it figured out.

 

The Episcopal Reverend was very kind and welcoming. He also had a great sense of humor and was an intellectual (attends the same CC as me for fun). I have a hang-up with speaking with church leadership though, because in the church I grew up in, questions were answered with "we will never understand His ways" or "it takes faith". I cannot accept those and if the next church leader I speak to says something along those lines, I think it might be even more damaging to my faith.

 

Have you tried studying religion in a more general way, studying different religions (including those that do not somehow stem from the Bible) and their texts, perhaps trying to attend a service or two "as a tourist" or speaking with people who practice them? This can be quite an interesting experience because it allows you to see the place you started from with different eyes... it can also help you pinpoint what you struggle with.

 

I am not sure about feeling "phony" on services - I think attending them for the sole aesthetics / feel of it is not necessarily a morally corrupted thing, in an open, embracing environment. Does it have to be an "all or nothing" package? When you join a church / denomination, are you obliged to go by their opinions in all matters, or can you still sort many things out on your own? You do not even have to HAVE a fixed opinion on many things now, and it is very normal that you are uncomfortable with much of it.

 

In August of 2010, I posted about exploring other religions. Ever since I began struggling with my beliefs, I've been interested in all religions. I've looked deeply into all major religions and looked at not-so-major religions, as well. My beliefs are pretty close to the Baha'i Faith, but I do have a few issues with their beliefs as well. I understand my beliefs will never perfectly match any one religion, but it is so hard for me to accept that.

 

I feel for you.

 

I agree with the poster above who said that If you can understand it, it's not God. The thing is, I had to figure out who I could trust to be my teacher. I knew I couldn't trust myself--talk about the blind leading the blind! Someone/something was going to be my guide, so I had to figure out who I could trust. It was certain that I was going to have to change my mind on some things, but there were core things I knew were true: God loved me, being chief among them. There were a few others.

 

We entered the Orthodox Church in 2007. A lot of things have had to change in my mind, because I am not the teacher of the Church, but the other way around. But the changes have been gentle, not forced, and surprisingly easy (where I thought they would be hard) and hard (where I thought they would be easy!).

 

The thing I knew more than anything was that I didn't want to know any more ABOUT God (all in my head, what I can comprehend or invent)--I wanted to KNOW GOD--communion with God. And that is what I am finding in our Church.

 

Maybe none of that resonates with you, but that's what it came down to for me.

 

God be with you.

 

I looked deeply into the Orthodox Church, but I had a lot of deep theological issues. I do appreciate your faith though. Divine Liturgy is beautiful and the ritual and sense of community is comforting.

 

Your thoughts do resonate with me. I feel like without religion, my thoughts on God could be invented by me. I want to have a relationship with God, but I am limiting myself.

 

Thanks for your thoughts :001_smile:

[Hunter's Moon]

ah. Well...I would remember that it is ok, from an Episcopal (and many other denominations) standpoint to look at the OT as the best the people of the time could explain things. That it was written by people, not by God. That it tells of God's doings in a way that made sense to the people of the time. That people may have misunderstood things that happened, or wrongly attributed things to God that weren't his. Or maybe God spoke to the people on the level they could handle in a framework they could understand.

 

I wouldn't let details overwhelm the experience of God.

 

This is how I try to think of the OT. But, then I wonder, how much am I choosing to accept and choosing not to. Who am I to draw this line?

 

You are not alone with this either. My DH has a bunch if trouble with the OT, especially parts where the writer says that it was God who caused some terrible outcome. For my DH, though he has a lot of inner conflict with Christianity, and the Bible, it comes down to communion with God, and participating in that communion. The OC puts a major focus on communion, and they allow some room for differences in some areas. They focus on the OT passages that point us to Christ and communion with God.

 

I understand the OC allows some room for differences, but I am strongly against many Orthodox teachings. I don't believe that homosexual behavior is sinful and that homosexuals must refrain from acting on their "urges". I don't agree with their stance on birth control.

 

I attended one service, which was beautiful. The Pastor (sorry, I can't remember the correct term for the church leader) told me about their library and I checked it out. One was a Q&A book on Orthodox beliefs and the one that really bothered me was that my boyfriend (now fiance) and I would not be permitted to marry if I converted to Orthodoxy because he didn't have proof that he was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and even if he did, it would have been looked down on because he wasn't a practicing Christian. I understand those are the Orthodox beliefs, and I respect them, but they really ate at me and I couldn't get past them.

 

Have you read any Marcus Borg?

 

And, if you are feeling too liberal for the Episcopalian church, you might read some John Shelby Sprong. And I second (third?) the advice to talk to the priest. My bet is that you'll be surprised at the number of people in church with you who can relate to what you are feeling and thinking.

 

I'm pretty sure I would be one of them. ;)

 

:grouphug:

 

Thanks for the suggestions, looking them up now.

 

:grouphug:

 

Don't feel like a phony, dear. Where else would you go to learn about God, if not to church? It's ok to not know where you stand with your beliefs. You keep going to church until you do.

 

Have you talked privately with a pastor?

 

Thank you for this advice :001_smile: :grouphug:

 

I have not, because of previous answers I have gotten, but I think I will.

[Rosie_0801]

Have you read up on Deism? There can be a god without it being that god.

 

From my pov, it is ok to take a different path up the mountain. It might mean there's no one else on your path, but there can still be an understanding between you and other people who are walking up the mountain by themselves. Everyone who does that knows what it is like. How it can be lonely and how it can be liberating, and how we have to create our own rituals.

 

And don't feel like a phony going to church. Keep going until you learn how to be comfortable there or until you know for certain it never will be. Eventually it will guide you to a choice. Refraining just prolongs the process.

 

Rosie

Edited March 18, 2012 by Rosie_0801

[chiguirre]

I am not sure about feeling "phony" on services - I think attending them for the sole aesthetics / feel of it is not necessarily a morally corrupted thing, in an open, embracing environment.

 

:iagree: and I do this myself. I no longer subscribe to Christian beliefs at all, but I still go to Mass with the kids. I find the ritual soothing and have found lots of nuggets of wisdom in the readings. On my own, I try to practice Taoism. The only glitch is handling Communion logistics if you're not participating, but once you find a good spot that doesn't block traffic, there's no reason not to go to church if you find it worthwhile.

[Hunter's Moon]

Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be opened unto you.

 

God will reveal Himself to those who are truly seeking. Have you read the Bible? It can be difficult in it's entirety. Get a good translation. The Daily Bible is a chronological Bible so it helps to put events into context. It uses NIV which is not the most literal word for word but does a pretty thorough job of whole thoughts. After reading the Bible you can start seeking likeminded Chirstians and churches who worship similarly to what you read. Pm if you want to discuss further.

 

I have been reading the Bible. I am having trouble finding a non-biased translation, though. I would like one that hasn't altered original transcripts to jive with their beliefs. I am sure there is no perfect Bible translation, though.

 

It's hard when the things you believe and the way you see God don't match up to any of the religions around you. :grouphug: You might consider reading about different world religions to see if any of their philosophies click with you. Even if you don't find a perfect fit, it can help you solidify those feelings you have about God into an actual statement about what you believe.

 

I don't think there's any one way to God that's the right and true way for everyone. I've always felt that religion is a mountain, and we each have to find our own path to the top, to know the Divine. The way we go and the scenery on the way will differ greatly, but we're all headed to the same destination. The hardest part is trying to enjoy the walk, because we're always worried about finding a path that's quicker or has more people on it. ;)

 

I like your view of religion, and it resonates with me. I mentioned up thread that the Baha'i Faith speaks to my beliefs on God, religion, and humankind the most, except their beliefs on homosexuality and the like.

 

I think I may be trying to hard to find a religion that meets all my requirements, when really, there isn't one.

 

FWIW, I didn't stop struggling with this until I was about 30 (I am 37 now). I imagine it's not unusual. You are not, btw, a phoney for not being sure. If you aren't comfortable with a particular church at this time, it's ok. If you want to keep going despite not feeling sure, nobody needs to know about it.

 

:grouphug:

 

Thank you :001_smile: :grouphug:

Edited March 18, 2012 by BeatleMania

[Hunter's Moon]

Have you read up on Deism? There can be a god without it being that god.

 

From my pov, it is ok to take a different path up the mountain. It might mean there's no one else on your path, but there can still be an understanding between you and other people who are walking up the mountain by themselves. Everyone who does that knows what it is like. How it can be lonely and how it can be liberating, and how we have to create our own rituals.

 

And don't feel like a phony going to church. Keep going until you learn how to be comfortable there or until you know for certain it never will be. Eventually it will guide you to a choice. Refraining just prolongs the process.

 

Rosie

 

I read up on Deism recently, and Christian Deism particularly interested me because I do respect Jesus's teachings, whether I believe he is divine or not. I understand all Deists view God differently. Deism.com really turned me off though because of their superior attitude. I've just been trying to get my beliefs to fit a mainstream religion, but I don't see that happening :tongue_smilie:

 

:iagree: and I do this myself. I no longer subscribe to Christian beliefs at all, but I still go to Mass with the kids. I find the ritual soothing and have found lots of nuggets of wisdom in the readings. On my own, I try to practice Taoism. The only glitch is handling Communion logistics if you're not participating, but once you find a good spot that doesn't block traffic, there's no reason not to go to church if you find it worthwhile.

 

I was wondering about Communion if I continued to attend the Episcopal. I don't feel comfortable partaking, even if they would allow me to without being confirmed. I thought it might look a bit odd if I attended for awhile without showing any interest in confirmation or Communion.

 

Oh well, I may continue to attend and meet up with the Reverend and just go with the flow.

[simka2]

I have considered Reform Judaism, but a lot of my issues with the characteristics of God stem from the OT.

 

 

Thanks for the reminder. I'll pick it up at the library tomorrow. :001_smile:

 

 

 

I asked a similar question in the Judaism 101 sub-group. It was along the lines of sin/temptation/demons. The Jewish theology of these is so different , that it makes the understanding of why the OT says, "God caused, or felt" a certain way very different. Not sure if that makes sense. That group would be a great place to ask some more questions! http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/group.php?groupid=167

 

 

I understand the OC allows some room for differences, but I am strongly against many Orthodox teachings. I don't believe that homosexual behavior is sinful and that homosexuals must refrain from acting on their "urges". I don't agree with their stance on birth control.

 

I attended one service, which was beautiful. The Pastor (sorry, I can't remember the correct term for the church leader) told me about their library and I checked it out. One was a Q&A book on Orthodox beliefs and the one that really bothered me was that my boyfriend (now fiance) and I would not be permitted to marry if I converted to Orthodoxy because he didn't have proof that he was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and even if he did, it would have been looked down on because he wasn't a practicing Christian. I understand those are the Orthodox beliefs, and I respect them, but they really ate at me and I couldn't get past them.

 

 

:confused: We have a lot of couples married in our church, by EO priests, where one spouse is not EO and often not necessarily baptized. This is the first I have heard about this. We were in catechism with a man who (he is still a chatechumen), but he is married (in the EO church) and has a child with his wife. Now years later he is deciding to convert. I am sure there would be some conversation with the priest, but I have not heard that they won't.

 

:grouphug: I am extremely liberal as well, so I do know some of your struggle.

[eternalknot]

I have a hang-up with speaking with church leadership though, because in the church I grew up in, questions were answered with "we will never understand His ways" or "it takes faith". I cannot accept those and if the next church leader I speak to says something along those lines, I think it might be even more damaging to my faith.

 

I can imagine how frustrating that must have been :grouphug:

 

Disclosure: I am not (and have never been) Christian, however I did agree to raise our children in their father's Catholic faith. He suffered an accident that left him questionning his faith, so he's now completely uninvolved in our children's faith formation; it's all on me. I lucked into a wonderful parish and priest who have helped guide me through my children's questions and challenges to their faith traditions and beliefs.

 

Prior to his arrival, was a less open priest who sounds like the church leaders of your past. He was so determined to convert me, but he did more damage to my children's faith formation than he helped -- they had questions I couldn't answer and -like you?- they weren't satisfied with "Have faith" and "It just is" as answers.

 

During that time I found a lot of intellectually stimulating conversation and thought-provoking leads through comparative religion courses (and at a Catholic university, no less) -- not so much in the classes themselves, but through the personal connections I met through them (both fellow students and faculty). Is that an option? Sort of a revival of the old time philosophers gathered in the commons to challenge and learn from each other?

 

My beliefs are pretty close to the Baha'i Faith, but I do have a few issues with their beliefs as well. I understand my beliefs will never perfectly match any one religion, but it is so hard for me to accept that.

 

One thing I can really appreciate about the Catholic faith is that they don't expect you to be 100% on-board when you 'sign up' ... my MIL is constantly trying to convert me, too, and this is her standard answer when I express the same concerns you do LOL. I'd imagine the same is true for many faiths; they're the journey, not the destination. You find where you're comfortable (ritual? tradition?), you seek out a spiritual mentor (doesn't have to be a church leader), and you continue on your faith journey knowing you'll struggle with and have to work through certain dogma, traditions, beliefs. It's part of the process, and a benefit to worshipping within a church community.

 

I still have zero interest in becoming Christian, so take all of this FWIW. I see it as an issue of personal discipline (in general, not you specifically!) and only you can know what environment (denomination) best suits you as you navigate your faith journey. Go deeper, and ask yourself what/why you disagree with the specifics of certain denominations and work your way out from there.

 

Let yourself drift in a specific direction, going with the flow rather than looking out into the distance at what you don't like/agree with/understand. Cross those bridges when you get there; you may be surprised to find yourself in a different frame of mind by then, and better able to sort through those things. Don't let those things be bouys now, blocking your way before you even leave shore.

 

Final thoughts: I do occasionally attend Mass with my children. Not often, but their priest has never said anything about my presence there being disrespectful or even inappropriate (knowing full well I'm not Christian and have no intentions to convert). As long as I don't take Communion, he's happy to have me there. Sometimes I do my own meditations, which is fine - it's a peaceful, contemplative environment and whatever my personal beliefs about Jesus's status, I respect that he was a real person who suffered real death for his beliefs. I imagine you do, too, at a baseline, and therefore should absolutely continue to attend services where and when you see fit.

 

:grouphug:

[Nakia]

:grouphug:

 

I think you are brave and strong. And God knows your heart. My advice is to pray and read read read the Word. The bible promises us that if we seek, we will find.

 

And by the way, go easy on yourself. You are doing great.

[ktgrok]

I read up on Deism recently, and Christian Deism particularly interested me because I do respect Jesus's teachings, whether I believe he is divine or not. I understand all Deists view God differently. Deism.com really turned me off though because of their superior attitude. I've just been trying to get my beliefs to fit a mainstream religion, but I don't see that happening :tongue_smilie:

 

 

 

I was wondering about Communion if I continued to attend the Episcopal. I don't feel comfortable partaking, even if they would allow me to without being confirmed. I thought it might look a bit odd if I attended for awhile without showing any interest in confirmation or Communion.

 

Oh well, I may continue to attend and meet up with the Reverend and just go with the flow.

No one will think it odd if you attend and are not confirmed, or partaking of communion. Many in the pews have never been confirmed. It isn't a big deal. Now, if you want to partake there is no reason you shouldn't, as long as you are baptized. In fact, it may help. Sometimes the physical helps the mental...which is why we have sacraments.

 

Also, as far as "where to draw the line" in your readings of the OT, can you just leave it as, I don't know? because we don't. Or, perhaps some scholarly, rather than religious, books on the OT would help? Or auditing a course at a college or university on the OT?

[Hunter's Moon]

I asked a similar question in the Judaism 101 sub-group. It was along the lines of sin/temptation/demons. The Jewish theology of these is so different , that it makes the understanding of why the OT says, "God caused, or felt" a certain way very different. Not sure if that makes sense. That group would be a great place to ask some more questions! http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/group.php?groupid=167

 

:confused: We have a lot of couples married in our church, by EO priests, where one spouse is not EO and often not necessarily baptized. This is the first I have heard about this. We were in catechism with a man who (he is still a chatechumen), but he is married (in the EO church) and has a child with his wife. Now years later he is deciding to convert. I am sure there would be some conversation with the priest, but I have not heard that they won't.

 

:grouphug: I am extremely liberal as well, so I do know some of your struggle.

 

Thanks for the group link! I didn't even know about that group.

 

In regards to marriage within the Church, I thought it was pretty universal that Orthodox Pastor's won't marry an EO and non-EO? That is what I have found all over the internet and in all EO theological books I have read through. I suppose it all depends on the individual Pastor, as well. But I do know that marriage is a Sacrament within EO, so wouldn't marrying outside the faith make light of the Sacrament, therefore not be accepted by the Church? I am not doubting what you have seen or experienced, I'm just confused because it is what I have read about.

 

I hope you don't mind if I PM you about being extremely liberal within EO :D

[Hunter's Moon]

No one will think it odd if you attend and are not confirmed, or partaking of communion. Many in the pews have never been confirmed. It isn't a big deal. Now, if you want to partake there is no reason you shouldn't, as long as you are baptized. In fact, it may help. Sometimes the physical helps the mental...which is why we have sacraments.

 

Also, as far as "where to draw the line" in your readings of the OT, can you just leave it as, I don't know? because we don't. Or, perhaps some scholarly, rather than religious, books on the OT would help? Or auditing a course at a college or university on the OT?

 

I did find Introduction to the Old Testament as a part of Yale's Open Courseware. I listened to the first lecture and enjoyed it. I think I will take the time to finish them out.

 

Thanks :001_smile:

[JenniferB]

I hope you don't mind if I PM you about being extremely liberal within EO :D

 

My Godmother is liberal too (her label, not mine.) ;)

[Hunter's Moon]

I can imagine how frustrating that must have been :grouphug:

 

Disclosure: I am not (and have never been) Christian, however I did agree to raise our children in their father's Catholic faith. He suffered an accident that left him questionning his faith, so he's now completely uninvolved in our children's faith formation; it's all on me. I lucked into a wonderful parish and priest who have helped guide me through my children's questions and challenges to their faith traditions and beliefs.

 

Prior to his arrival, was a less open priest who sounds like the church leaders of your past. He was so determined to convert me, but he did more damage to my children's faith formation than he helped -- they had questions I couldn't answer and -like you?- they weren't satisfied with "Have faith" and "It just is" as answers.

 

During that time I found a lot of intellectually stimulating conversation and thought-provoking leads through comparative religion courses (and at a Catholic university, no less) -- not so much in the classes themselves, but through the personal connections I met through them (both fellow students and faculty). Is that an option? Sort of a revival of the old time philosophers gathered in the commons to challenge and learn from each other?

 

 

 

One thing I can really appreciate about the Catholic faith is that they don't expect you to be 100% on-board when you 'sign up' ... my MIL is constantly trying to convert me, too, and this is her standard answer when I express the same concerns you do LOL. I'd imagine the same is true for many faiths; they're the journey, not the destination. You find where you're comfortable (ritual? tradition?), you seek out a spiritual mentor (doesn't have to be a church leader), and you continue on your faith journey knowing you'll struggle with and have to work through certain dogma, traditions, beliefs. It's part of the process, and a benefit to worshipping within a church community.

 

I still have zero interest in becoming Christian, so take all of this FWIW. I see it as an issue of personal discipline (in general, not you specifically!) and only you can know what environment (denomination) best suits you as you navigate your faith journey. Go deeper, and ask yourself what/why you disagree with the specifics of certain denominations and work your way out from there.

 

Let yourself drift in a specific direction, going with the flow rather than looking out into the distance at what you don't like/agree with/understand. Cross those bridges when you get there; you may be surprised to find yourself in a different frame of mind by then, and better able to sort through those things. Don't let those things be bouys now, blocking your way before you even leave shore.

 

Final thoughts: I do occasionally attend Mass with my children. Not often, but their priest has never said anything about my presence there being disrespectful or even inappropriate (knowing full well I'm not Christian and have no intentions to convert). As long as I don't take Communion, he's happy to have me there. Sometimes I do my own meditations, which is fine - it's a peaceful, contemplative environment and whatever my personal beliefs about Jesus's status, I respect that he was a real person who suffered real death for his beliefs. I imagine you do, too, at a baseline, and therefore should absolutely continue to attend services where and when you see fit.

 

:grouphug:

 

I appreciate your thoughtful view. I have issues with embracing things and going with the flow. I am a control-freak :tongue_smilie: You do make a valid point about crossing that bridge when I get there, especially since I may very well not have an issue with what I used to.

 

:grouphug:

 

:grouphug:

 

I think you are brave and strong. And God knows your heart. My advice is to pray and read read read the Word. The bible promises us that if we seek, we will find.

 

And by the way, go easy on yourself. You are doing great.

 

This post made me smile. And truly smile, inwardly, too. Thank you :grouphug:

[Hunter's Moon]

General practice in my experience is that an Orthodox Christian can marry a baptized Christian (non-Orthodox) in the Orthodox Church, but not a non-baptized person. This is a recognition of the world we live in--it is not very easy to find an Orthodox mate. This might vary from country to country, as would the Orthodox population density.

 

The Orthodox marriage service is called a "crowning"--a new kingdom is being created. It is the blessing of love that already exists between two people; there are no wedding "vows." I'm trying to put my finger on why it is not a "belittling of the sacrament" if both people are not Orthodox...but I can't put my words around it yet. I'll keep noodling on that.

 

In our parish, we had an Orthodox/non-Orthodox wedding, and the man converted about a year later. We had another one about 6 months later, and the man is not any more interested in converting than he was at the time of the wedding. But both marriages are sacramental, in that there is grace within the relationship of love. One is just harder to manage, because there isn't the unity of the faith. But it is managed in love, as is any marriage.

 

Thank you for answering :001_smile: How would one go about proving baptism? Would they need the baptismal certificate, or could they take their word for it? I'm assuming the baptismal certificate would be necessary...

 

My Godmother is liberal too (her label, not mine.) ;)

 

This made me chuckle. What I consider liberal, some may consider sacrilegious ;)

[ktgrok]

I did find Introduction to the Old Testament as a part of Yale's Open Courseware. I listened to the first lecture and enjoyed it. I think I will take the time to finish them out.

 

Thanks :001_smile:

 

You are welcome. I was a religion major at FSU once upon a time. IN the comparative religion department, not a theology thing at all. It was fascinating.

[JenniferB]

This made me chuckle. What I consider liberal, some may consider sacrilegious ;)

 

One of the traits I love about my Godmother is her non-judgemental attitude. She finds the good in everyone and everything. I experience this attitude all over EO, as I read the wise words of the Saints too. They take the words of Jesus seriously, and practice them, "judge not lest ye be judged." It's a beautiful atmosphere.

[simka2]

Thanks for the group link! I didn't even know about that group.

 

 

I hope you don't mind if I PM you about being extremely liberal within EO :D

 

No problem! ...and when I say liberal, I mean....VERY DARN LIBERAL! ;)

 

I would be happy to chat about how I have dealt with some of these issues inside myself. It won't work for everyone, but I am reasonably content.

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

:grouphug:

 

Don't give up hope! There is NO perfect church. No Perfect people. My hope is in Heaven. I read the Bible, Listen to it on audio and plan to really study it again soon with my first commentary... Matthew Henry all in one.

It is reformed, and Omnibus for VP recommends it, so I have an open mind. As a 12 Step person, I admit I am powerless, and read through the Recovery Bible 15 years ago, been in a few diff. denominations and a non denominational church. All have problems, some split, I have come to hate religion and want relationship, with God and my family number 1. I do really like our SS and church but struggle with how authentic some are. Especially in this rough time my family is having and I have had no calls, emails, or any type of support. I know some are concerned and pray, but where are they?

[simka2]

Thank you for answering :001_smile: How would one go about proving baptism? Would they need the baptismal certificate, or could they take their word for it? I'm assuming the baptismal certificate would be necessary...

 

 

 

This made me chuckle. What I consider liberal, some may consider sacrilegious ;)

 

It varies by priest and Bishop. Some like to have a certificate others just want to talk it out with you and get a decent feel for what the previous baptism was. I do know this. If you had a Trinitarian baptism AND felt strongly about not being baptized again, talk about it. I am happy to talk about this a little more via pm. :)

Edited March 19, 2012 by simka2

[Aelwydd]

I can't really give you any direction toward a particular church. But, for your personal journey, and edification, I highly recommend reading pretty much anything from Joseph Campbell.

[Hunter's Moon]

:grouphug:

 

Don't give up hope! There is NO perfect church. No Perfect people. My hope is in Heaven. I read the Bible, Listen to it on audio and plan to really study it again soon with my first commentary... Matthew Henry all in one.

It is reformed, and Omnibus for VP recommends it, so I have an open mind. As a 12 Step person, I admit I am powerless, and read through the Recovery Bible 15 years ago, been in a few diff. denominations and a non denominational church. All have problems, some split, I have come to hate religion and want relationship, with God and my family number 1. I do really like our SS and church but struggle with how authentic some are. Especially in this rough time my family is having and I have had no calls, emails, or any type of support. I know some are concerned and pray, but where are they?

 

I'm a 12-Step person as well, which is what really got me going spiritually.

[ma23peas]

Please don’t bash me for any of this because I truly am struggling and feel so lost. I am having trouble articulating how I truly feel, especially since I feel I have to censor some things because I don’t want to offend. Maybe organized religion just isn’t for me, but I so badly want it to be. What would you do in my situation?

 

 

Pray. God is not one to refuse those who seek Him, in fact, t is stated He rewards those who do. I was reading Hebrews today, it specifically stated that young believers are like babies on milk, they are not yet ready or food. Perhaps your conflict is that you are seeking meatier remnants when just the milk is what you need. Scripture and a seeking heart will be your best start...perhaps Hebrews would help encourage you!

[Aelwydd]

Pray. God is not one to refuse those who seek Him, in fact, t is stated He rewards those who do. I was reading Hebrews today, it specifically stated that young believers are like babies on milk, they are not yet ready or food. Perhaps your conflict is that you are seeking meatier remnants when just the milk is what you need. Scripture and a seeking heart will be your best start...perhaps Hebrews would help encourage you!

 

 

ma23peas, I mean no offense, but Beatle's issues are directly related to what she's read in scripture, specifically the OT. Telling her that she's just not ready for heavy theological concepts and should just stick to easy reading is an avoidance of the issue. Those who read the Bible, in its entirety, and carefully study it with an objective mind, are going to inevitably face some hard questions. That's part of critical thinking, and spiritual growth. I do not think the answer is to advise the OP to remain content with an infantile or facile faith.

[astrid]

:grouphug:

 

Many tender, understanding hugs.

 

I struggle answering this post, because it would become a litany of what I believe/don't believe. I, too, struggle with finding a "church feel" but without the things (theology) that I can't authentically embrace.

 

You are NOT alone. There are several of us here.

 

Yes, and I"m one. I could have written your post, OP. Sending hugs...

 

astrid

[Teachin'Mine]

:grouphug:

 

Searching and not yet feeling the sense of belonging is hard. :grouphug: Do you know how many are in the pews though who give little thought to what they actually believe and just go through the motions as if on automatic pilot? You don't have to believe everything or even understand everything. You're searching. That's all we can do is to search and read and pray. The rest is up to God. Keep an open mind, and especially an open heart, and you will find answers. Pray for the Holy Spirit to gift you with wisdom and understanding.

 

I would keep going to the 8AM service. Keep reading, keep praying, and keep searching. I agree with others - you're doing great!

 

I did some googling and found this from Scott Hahn. I haven't listened to it, but I hear a lot of good things about his Bible studies and it might help to answer some questions about the Old Testament.

 

http://www.betterworldbooks.com/A-Father-Who-Keeps-His-Promises-id-9780892838295.aspx?utm_source=google_feed

[catz]

I haven't read the other responses, but are there other UU options around? Our UU church is very traditional and ritual based compared to many and their services are quite structured. If there are other UU options around, they may be worth exploring. What they say about UU churches is if you've been to one UU church, you've been to one UU church. :D Anyway - I'm sorry you're struggling in your journey and I hope you find somewhere to call home.

[ma23peas]

ma23peas, I mean no offense, but Beatle's issues are directly related to what she's read in scripture, specifically the OT. Telling her that she's just not ready for heavy theological concepts and should just stick to easy reading is an avoidance of the issue. Those who read the Bible, in its entirety, and carefully study it with an objective mind, are going to inevitably face some hard questions. That's part of critical thinking, and spiritual growth. I do not think the answer is to advise the OP to remain content with an infantile or facile faith.

 

No offense taken, I only respond with what wisdom I have been given through my study of scripture and how my heart has been led by my faith and devotion to God. I do not believe I told her to stick with easy reading...where people lose touch is where they are trying to create a path to an answer...the answer is already there...God has provided the way through the scripture...and supplication to prayer....some may view this as infantile or facile....man makes it much more complicated than it should be....just as man changed many of the early churches through rituals and Paul pleaded with them to not veer away from the worship God outlined in his Word...we can often overcomplicate the simple.

[Scuff]

As a young adult I really struggled eith many things in thr OT. The agod in the OT isn't always nice. I told God this, and asked Him to show me His truth. It disn't happen overnight, but over time I learned more about the OT and relly devolped a love for it. God's faithfulness and love really do shine through, along with his sovergeinty and holiness. Anyeay, I think in Christianity, We tend to deny our doubts and questions and insecurities. However, I don't think God has an issue with us being honest with Him. When ee are honest eith him, we allow communication between us and our creator. It's a starting point.

[livetoread]

I could have written your post about a year ago. I was still trying hard to hold onto some sort of faith but those roots were snapping off, one by one. The more I read the bible, the worse it got. The more I prayed and got silence in return, the worse it got. The more I heard about other people experiencing God while I was getting nothing, the worse it got. Reading the liberal theologians helped for awhile, until it didn't anymore. The more I read about those who had lost their faith and the reasons why, the more sense it made to me that there probably is no theistic God, or at least one that loves everyone and longs for a relationship with them.

 

Now I attend a liberal Presbyterian church because I like that it helps me organize my work for others, the sermons help me focus my priorities (I filter out the god part), and I enjoy the excellent high-church music complete with huge organ and beautiful choir. My kids are really pretty much non-believers too but they are welcomed and loved on. My husband lost his faith awhile ago but he attends too. I consider myself a non-believer that keeps muddling through anyway and hoping maybe someday it won't be like that. If there is a god, the ball's in his/her/its court though. I'm done.

[Rosie_0801]

I read up on Deism recently, and Christian Deism particularly interested me because I do respect Jesus's teachings, whether I believe he is divine or not. I understand all Deists view God differently.

 

Christians aren't the only ones to respect Jesus' teachings. Thinking someone was a great bloke and worth dwelling on doesn't have to be limited by religion.

 

Deism.com really turned me off though because of their superior attitude. I've just been trying to get my beliefs to fit a mainstream religion, but I don't see that happening :tongue_smilie:

 

Well, if it doesn't, you'll eventually come to terms with it. :) What a shame you can't drop by and discuss it with my hubby. He's not a superior snot. :D I usually like religion talk but he earbashed me for months and made my brain glaze over!

 

Periods of searching are uncomfortable, but they show you're thinking about what you are doing and why. That is a good sign. :tongue_smilie:

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

[Joanne]

I'm a 12-Step person as well, which is what really got me going spiritually.

 

21 years in May. It's been a mixed blessing spiritually. 21 years in AA = I can't embrace an exclusive God even though my faith in a God is huge.

 

I've seen God work in too many lives to believe in any exclusive doctrine.