Carrie12345 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I knew I screwed up as soon as I clicked, and it really annoys me b/c we've been talking about phrases nearly every day. I *know* how to find the answer, I just didn't stop to think! :tongue_smilie: (I rushed to "surface is" in my head.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhomemaker Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 About in this sentence is not a preposition; it is being used to mean "approximately." :iagree: Percent is the subject and not an object of the preposition. Just because other nouns in the sentence would make better sense as the subject, doesn't mean that they can stop being OPs and become the subject. It's just a poorly worded sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuirkyKapers Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 My first thought was surface. However, as others have pointed out, it is part of a prep phrase. So, that does leave 12%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvnlattes Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 That "about" threw me at first too, because I kept thinking it was a preposition. Once I worked through what each word or prepositional phrase was modifying I was able to work it out. I might give this one to my oldest and see if he can figure it out :) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I voted other. I pretty sure the implied subject is kilts. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin M Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I would say Earth 12 % of what is covered? The Earth Earth is subject. 12% is covered in ice and water is the predicate. My 2 cents :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaichiki Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) I voted Percent. About and twelve are adjectives modifying percent. Surface and Earth are parts of prepositional phrases. That is what I analysed. :iagree: About modifies 12 12 modifies percent of the surface is a prep phrase modifying percent of the Earth is a prep pharse modifying surface Edited January 20, 2012 by zaichiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I still say the subject is 12%. My grammar books all say that mathematical phrases are used as a single grammatical unit. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraGB Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I would say Earth 12 % of what is covered? The Earth Earth is subject. 12% is covered in ice and water is the predicate. My 2 cents :) I can't believe I read this whole thread before this answer was posted. What's going on? Earth Is Covered. Everything else is filler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I can't believe I read this whole thread before this answer was posted. What's going on? Earth Is Covered. Everything else is filler. No. Any grammar book will tell you that the subject will NEVER be part of a prepositional phrase except for the rare exception such as referring to time or space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I voted Percent. About and twelve are adjectives modifying percent. Surface and Earth are parts of prepositional phrases. That is what I analysed. Yep...that was my choice. Close second was 12%. Because that is actually one number...or fraction of a number...12/100....which makes it one thing...therefore twelve is not a modifier like 12 mittens....phew! (said in one long breath) Faithe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraGB Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 No. Any grammar book will tell you that the subject will NEVER be part of a prepositional phrase except for the rare exception such as referring to time or space. Every movement in the sentence is a prepositional phrase: about 12% of the surface of the earth is covered in water and ice What is the only verb in the whole sentence? "Is", or rather, "is covered". What "is covered?" The "Earth". Final answer. :D Sharon? What gives? What's the answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Every movement in the sentence is a prepositional phrase: about 12% of the surface of the earth is covered in water and ice What is the only verb in the whole sentence? "Is", or rather, "is covered". What "is covered?" The "Earth". Final answer. :D Sharon? What gives? What's the answer? About is not a preposition in this sentence. It is an adjective that modifies 12%. Simple subject + simple predicate = 12% is covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Every movement in the sentence is a prepositional phrase: about 12% of the surface of the earth is covered in water and ice What is the only verb in the whole sentence? "Is", or rather, "is covered". What "is covered?" The "Earth". Final answer. :D Sharon? What gives? What's the answer? About is not acting as a preposition in that instance. Some words are only prepositions some of the time. Preposition: "the children were dancing about the meadow." When about means "approximately" it is not a preposition, but an adverb. I know, it seems like it should be an adjective, but adverbs modify numbers of degree, that's why it would be approximately. Edited January 20, 2012 by Mrs Mungo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraGB Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 About is not a preposition in this sentence. It is an adjective that modifies 12%. Simple subject + simple predicate = 12% is covered. But isn't that like using "about" like "approximately"? "Approximately five yellow chickens died today." At first, I really thought it was "percent". But then, upon further examination, I really feel like it is "earth". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Close second was 12%. Because that is actually one number...or fraction of a number...12/100....which makes it one thing...therefore twelve is not a modifier like 12 mittens....phew! (said in one long breath) This is my vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaichiki Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 But isn't that like using "about" like "approximately"? "Approximately five yellow chickens died today." At first, I really thought it was "percent". But then, upon further examination, I really feel like it is "earth". But, in this sentence, Earth is the object of a preposition. It cannot be the subject of the sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 But isn't that like using "about" like "approximately"? "Approximately five yellow chickens died today." At first, I really thought it was "percent". But then, upon further examination, I really feel like it is "earth". That isn't the same type of sentence. "Approximately three-tenths of forumites are only here for the kilts." The subject is three-tenths. Forumites is part of a prepositional phrase and therefore not the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmom2011 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I agree with earth. What does the TM say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 About in this sentence is not a preposition; it is being used to mean "approximately." :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 About 12% of the surface of the Earth is covered in water and ice. Options above (if I can get the poll thingie to work). Dh gave his authoritative* vote, but I'm interested to see the grammatical intuitions of others on this. ETA: In answer to the fair question, "complete subject or simple subject?" I mean the simple subject; or, since that phrase causes dh to wince, "the head of the noun phrase forming the subject." You're welcome, linguists. *He essentially has a Ph.D. in grammar, so I defer to him in these things as a straightforward Argument From Authority. Prepositional phrases: of the surface, of the earth, in water and ice That leaves "About 12% is covered." "Is covered" is the verb. That leaves "About 12%." So.....my vote is...ummmm....12%. Is that the simple subject? I dunno. Not sure of "about." :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nd293 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 About 12% of the surface of the Earth is covered in water and ice. I chose "surface", but I think maybe it's "12%". I don't think it can be "percent" - 12% is a compound word, surely? I always tell dd to break the sentence down to its simplest form - I was thinking "The surface is covered", but perhaps "12% is covered" is the correct way to look at it.. The rest is just the what/when/why/where/how of that sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 No. Any grammar book will tell you that the subject will NEVER be part of a prepositional phrase except for the rare exception such as referring to time or space. Not to mention that that would change the *meaning* of the sentence. The sentence doesn't say that the (whole) earth is covered. It says that a portion of it is. So the subject has to be something that represents that portion: 12%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraGB Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Good morning, Sharon :) What the heck is the answer?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawana Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 According to Those Who Know, this is the right approach. (Though They like to say things such as "genitive phrase complement" and the like.) Mrs. Mungo addresses one source of confusion in the sentence, by observing that percent (or %) is a number-transparent noun, with the singular surface requiring a singular verb. Twelve (or 12) is functioning as a d********r. Thus, percent (or %) is the big winner. Not that I expect The Hive to cave by Argument From Authority to Those Who Know. Good morning, Sharon :) What the heck is the answer?? See above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerPoppy Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 12%. "About" is an adjective modifying the subject, and "of the surface" and "of the earth" are prepositional phrases. On the 12% vs just percent: Imagine if instead the 12% was converted to a decimal or a fraction ("About 12/100 of the surface of the earth") and the rationale for keeping the 12 becomes clearer. :iagree:Yes, my thoughts exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraGB Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 See above. Oops :blushing: Missed that. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescrappyhomeschooler Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I voted 12%, because I think of it as a single unit, not 12 modifying percent, if that makes any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paige Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I strongly disagree with The One Who Knows. The subject cannot be percent because it is meaningless on its own. As someone above mentioned, percent is actually an abbreviation for the term "out of 100." Percent is an implied prepositional phrase. If mathematical terms weren't considered 1 unit, then 12 would be the subject but not percent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I strongly disagree with The One Who Knows. The subject cannot be percent because it is meaningless on its own. As someone above mentioned, percent is actually an abbreviation for the term "out of 100." Percent is an implied prepositional phrase. If mathematical terms weren't considered 1 unit, then 12 would be the subject but not percent. But by the same analogy, 12 is also meaningless on its own. 12 what? 12 is covered? As mentioned earlier, if 12 were the subject the verb should be plural in the sentence i.e. "12 are covered". I'm sticking to "percent" being the simple subject, however, I believe as Mrs. Mungo has shown that mathematical terms should be taken together because alone they are meaningless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I strongly disagree with The One Who Knows. The subject cannot be percent because it is meaningless on its own. As someone above mentioned, percent is actually an abbreviation for the term "out of 100." Percent is an implied prepositional phrase. If mathematical terms weren't considered 1 unit, then 12 would be the subject but not percent. Wouldn't the meaning of "percent" include the implied "parts out of 100." So the (implied) "parts" in the whole construction of 12% is what makes this the subject? Bill (who is skating on thin ice :D) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Wouldn't the meaning of "percent" include the implied "parts out of 100." So the (implied) "parts" in the whole construction of 12% is what makes this the subject? Bill (who is skating on thin ice :D) That would be a perfect analysis, if the sentence had contained any of those words. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmulcahy Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Wouldn't the meaning of "percent" include the implied "parts out of 100." So the (implied) "parts" in the whole construction of 12% is what makes this the subject? Bill (who is skating on thin ice :D) Yes...this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 That would be a perfect analysis, if the sentence had contained any of those words. :D What did the book say, btw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 That would be a perfect analysis, if the sentence had contained any of those words. :D Reasonable point :tongue_smilie: Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Sources:http://www.grammarbook.com/grammar/subjectVerbAgree.asp Rule 9 With words that indicate portions—percent, fraction, part, majority, some, all, none, remainder, and so forth —look at the noun in your of phrase (object of the preposition) to determine whether to use a singular or plural verb. If the object of the preposition is singular, use a singular verb. If the object of the preposition is plural, use a plural verb. Examples: Fifty percent of the pie has disappeared. Pie is the object of the preposition of. Fifty percent of the pies have disappeared. Pies is the object of the preposition. One-third of the city is unemployed. One-third of the people are unemployed. http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/grammarlogs3/grammarlogs427.htm http://www.mathematics-in-europe.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=28&lang=en Treat mathematical expressions as a single unit: To avoid confusion, treat an entire mathematical expression as a single grammatical unit. Thus if the subject of a sentence is a word, then the main verb should be a word as well. It should not be a symbol and should above all not be part of a mathematical expression. If it is the case that the subject-verb agreement should be based on using the object of a preposition rather than the subject, then we have just wasted the last six months of grammar education (which has taught the opposite). Maybe "Prescriptivist" grammar has a huge gash in it's hull and it's time to head to the life-boats of "Descriptivism." Captain Coward :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 What did the book say, btw? Actually, the book was using the sentence in an exercise in detecting common nouns (which led us to a dispute about "the Earth" versus "Earth" versus "the earth" but let's not go there). So there wouldn't have been an answer about the subject in the Teacher's Guide, even if I hadn't been so cheap and had bought it. Which I didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraciebytheBay Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I voted %. 12 would be the adjective modifying %. Now I'll search the responses to see if you gave the right answer somewhere! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 If it is the case that the subject-verb agreement should be based on using the object of a preposition rather than the subject, then we have just wasted the last six months of grammar education (which has taught the opposite). Subject/verb agreement based on the object of the preposition is for very special cases. It isn't something you use all the time. With words that indicate portions—percent, fraction, part, majority, some, all, none, remainder, and so forth —look at the noun in your of phrase (object of the preposition) to determine whether to use a singular or plural verb. If the object of the preposition is singular, use a singular verb. If the object of the preposition is plural, use a plural verb. Example: Approximately 12% of women on the forum *are* only here for the kilts. You wouldn't say, "is only here for the kilts," even though 12% is the subject. Nobody would say that, not even the purest of the pure grammarians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Actually, the book was using the sentence in an exercise in detecting common nouns (which led us to a dispute about "the Earth" versus "Earth" versus "the earth" but let's not go there). So there wouldn't have been an answer about the subject in the Teacher's Guide, even if I hadn't been so cheap and had bought it. Which I didn't. Ah, I see. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) If it is the case that the subject-verb agreement should be based on using the object of a preposition rather than the subject, then we have just wasted the last six months of grammar education (which has taught the opposite). Maybe "Prescriptivist" grammar has a huge gash in it's hull and it's time to head to the life-boats of "Descriptivism." Captain Coward :tongue_smilie: You do have to look to the of complement for many number-transparent nouns. Another example is majority, which takes an optional singular verb on its own The majority is Irish. but an obligatory plural verb with an of complement The majority of voters are Irish. Come over to the descriptivist side, Bill. We're waiting for you. :D Edited January 20, 2012 by Sharon in Austin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You do have to look to the of complement for many number-transparent nouns. Another example is majority, which takes an optional singular verb on its own The majority is Irish. but an obligatory plural verb with an of complement The majority of voters are Irish. Come over to the prescriptivist side, Bill. We're waiting for you. :D He seems to be implying that he's a prescriptivist and we're being descriptivists. But, the truth is, English is a complex language with lots of conflicting rules. It's not math! If he can't handle that fact, then maybe he should leave teaching grammar to the experts. ;) :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Subject/verb agreement based on the object of the preposition is for very special cases. It isn't something you use all the time. So the rule is: The subject-verb is always based on the relationship of the subject and the verb, and not on the agreement of the verb with the object of the preposition (which would be wrong), except sometimes when the rule is thrown out the window? Explain this to me like I'm a 7 year old. Maybe I need to dig out some Noam Chomsky? :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You do have to look to the of complement for many number-transparent nouns. Another example is majority, which takes an optional singular verb on its own The majority is Irish. but an obligatory plural verb with an of complement The majority of voters are Irish. Come over to the prescriptivist side, Bill. We're waiting for you. :D Wait. I thought you were on the Descriptivist side :confused: I may have tripped into the wrong lifeboat. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 So the rule is: The subject-verb is always based on the relationship of the subject and the verb, and not on the agreement of the verb with the object of the preposition (which would be wrong), except sometimes when the rule is thrown out the window? Explain this to me like I'm a 7 year old. Maybe I need to dig out some Noam Chomsky? :D Bill Sounds like you've got it! Maybe you should sit down with On the Road instead. You might REALLY rethink your grammar strategy after that. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 He seems to be implying that he's a prescriptivist and we're being descriptivists. But, the truth is, English is a complex language with lots of conflicting rules. It's not math! If he can't handle that fact, then maybe he should leave teaching grammar to the experts. ;) :D When are you available? :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 When are you available? :D Bill Oooh, are you willing to trade for math teaching duties? There might be less wailing and gnashing of teeth over math that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 About 12% of the surface of the Earth is covered in water and ice. Could you trade out some words to make it more obvious? About red apples of the surface of the Earth is covered in water and ice? I'm curious... isn't the "about red apples" a prepositional phrase? "is covered" are the only words NOT in prep phrases, right? So, the "understood you" would be in play, and where "you" doesn't fit... is there an exception and so "it" becomes the "understood 'you'?" Just a guess, perhaps a horrible one. :) I have to brush up on this, I suppose :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Wait. I thought you were on the Descriptivist side :confused: I may have tripped into the wrong lifeboat. Bill Sorry, typo fixed. I've been drinking with Mrs. Mungo. Shiner, not Mike's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 12% OR (percent) I would let a student use either one. By looking at the predicate you know that surface isn't the subject, because the whole surface isn't covered. You can ask yourself "What 'is covered?'" 12% About is not a preposition in this sentence. It is one of those words that can serve multiple purposes. We discussed that in our thread on whether or not to have dc memorize the prepositions; personally, I have dc memorize them but also warn them that many have other uses. You're so smart :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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