Violet Crown Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) About 12% of the surface of the Earth is covered in water and ice. Options above (if I can get the poll thingie to work). Dh gave his authoritative* vote, but I'm interested to see the grammatical intuitions of others on this. ETA: In answer to the fair question, "complete subject or simple subject?" I mean the simple subject; or, since that phrase causes dh to wince, "the head of the noun phrase forming the subject." You're welcome, linguists. *He essentially has a Ph.D. in grammar, so I defer to him in these things as a straightforward Argument From Authority. Edited January 19, 2012 by Sharon in Austin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 That's not fair! I wanted to vote for Nutella but I also wanted to put in my real answer! :( Too many tempting options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarlaS Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Ack! I voted surface, but that can't be right. It's in a prepositional phrase. D'oh! If I could have a do over, I'd go with 12% (more specifically, "percent"). Next time I'll read the poll first! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I voted Percent. About and twelve are adjectives modifying percent. Surface and Earth are parts of prepositional phrases. That is what I analysed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannah C. Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 My intuition is that, in a way, the entire first part of the sentence (everything before "is") is the subject of the sentence. :D But I feel like "surface" is the primary subject. That was without looking anything up. ETA: yep, I'm wrong..it's 12% because the other two are prepositional phrases. This is why I look things up, haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 About 12% of the surface of the Earth is covered in water and ice. Options above (if I can get the poll thingie to work). Dh gave his authoritative* vote, but I'm interested to see the grammatical intuitions of others on this. *He essentially has a Ph.D. in grammar, so I defer to him in these things as a straightforward Argument From Authority. It is 12%. But, how would it only be 12%? Do you mean the bits not covered with oceans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarlaS Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I voted Percent. About and twelve are adjectives modifying percent. Surface and Earth are parts of prepositional phrases. That is what I analysed. I think you are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 If we got down to simplest, it would be percent, but percent is a bit meaningless without the number modifying it, so I voted 12%. I know that technically includes the number modifier rather than just the noun; I could be easily persuaded that percent alone was correct. On a scientific rather than grammatical note, isn't way more than 12% of the Earth covered in water or ice? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 If we got down to simplest, it would be percent, but percent is a bit meaningless without the number modifying it, so I voted 12%. I know that technically includes the number modifier rather than just the noun; I could be easily persuaded that percent alone was correct. On a scientific rather than grammatical note, isn't way more than 12% of the Earth covered in water or ice? ;) :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Peach Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 It is 12%. But, how would it only be 12%? Do you mean the bits not covered with oceans? I didn't vote in the poll because I knew I'd get it wrong. :tongue_smilie: But I'm with you that the figure here is off. Way off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapbookbuzz Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Ack! I voted surface, but that can't be right. It's in a prepositional phrase. D'oh! If I could have a do over, I'd go with 12% (more specifically, "percent"). Next time I'll read the poll first! But WHAT is the sentence talking about, aka the subject? That would be the surface (of the earth). If you're going to negate that due to being right after a preposition, you have to negate 12% too because it comes right after "about". The subject is the MAIN THOUGHT of the sentence: the surface of the earth. Or, to narrow it down, the "surface". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockhopper Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) 12%. "About" is an adjective modifying the subject, and "of the surface" and "of the earth" are prepositional phrases. On the 12% vs just percent: Imagine if instead the 12% was converted to a decimal or a fraction ("About 12/100 of the surface of the earth") and the rationale for keeping the 12 becomes clearer. Edited January 19, 2012 by Rockhopper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Peach Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 But WHAT is the sentence talking about, aka the subject? That would be the surface (of the earth). If you're going to negate that due to being right after a preposition, you have to negate 12% too because it comes right after "about". The subject is the MAIN THOUGHT of the sentence: the surface of the earth. Or, to narrow it down, the "surface". See, now, that was my thought, too. But I'm always wrong about this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 But WHAT is the sentence talking about, aka the subject? That would be the surface (of the earth). If you're going to negate that due to being right after a preposition, you have to negate 12% too because it comes right after "about". The subject is the MAIN THOUGHT of the sentence: the surface of the earth. Or, to narrow it down, the "surface". About in this sentence is not a preposition; it is being used to mean "approximately." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 D'oh! It came from the Galore Park Jr. English book, and actually said "snow and ice," not "water and ice." Whatever. Hey, we're after grammar here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silliness7 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 About 12% of the surface of the Earth is covered in water and ice. Options above (if I can get the poll thingie to work). Dh gave his authoritative* vote, but I'm interested to see the grammatical intuitions of others on this. *He essentially has a Ph.D. in grammar, so I defer to him in these things as a straightforward Argument From Authority. about = adverb modifying the adjective 12 twelve = adjective modifying the noun percent percent = subject of the surface = prepositional phrase modifying Earth? of the Earth = prepositional phrase modifying percent is covered = verb phrase in water and ice = prepositional phrase modifying is covered? That's my best guess. I think I'm missing something. But I don't know what so I'm guessing. Going to see what the grammarians say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarlaS Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) But WHAT is the sentence talking about, aka the subject? That would be the surface (of the earth). If you're going to negate that due to being right after a preposition, you have to negate 12% too because it comes right after "about". The subject is the MAIN THOUGHT of the sentence: the surface of the earth. Or, to narrow it down, the "surface". (Edited to remove already posted info) I liked surface too. Still do, but it can't be the subject if it's in a prepositional phrase. Edited January 19, 2012 by darlasowders already posted info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janie Grace Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Percent. Twelve is an adjective modifying the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 12% OR (percent) I would let a student use either one. By looking at the predicate you know that surface isn't the subject, because the whole surface isn't covered. You can ask yourself "What 'is covered?'" 12% About is not a preposition in this sentence. It is one of those words that can serve multiple purposes. We discussed that in our thread on whether or not to have dc memorize the prepositions; personally, I have dc memorize them but also warn them that many have other uses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaKim Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I voted percent. Twelve would be an adjective modifying percent, and about is an adverb modifying 12. About is being used like nearly, almost, or approximately. These words are all adverbs. The other nouns are part of prepositional phrases, which makes it impossible for them to be the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silliness7 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 But WHAT is the sentence talking about, aka the subject? That would be the surface (of the earth). If you're going to negate that due to being right after a preposition, you have to negate 12% too because it comes right after "about". The subject is the MAIN THOUGHT of the sentence: the surface of the earth. Or, to narrow it down, the "surface". Doesn't this happen in sentences like All of the macaroni is gone. The subject is all. But really the thing we are talking and caring and wanting to know more about is macaroni. But still the subject is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Every single person who voted is wrong. It's Nutella! Nutella is *always*right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silliness7 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 12%. "About" is an adjective modifying the subject, and "of the surface" and "of the earth" are prepositional phrases. On the 12% vs just percent: Imagine if instead the 12% was converted to a decimal or a fraction ("About 12/100 of the surface of the earth") and the rationale for keeping the 12 becomes clearer. I still think the subject would be one-hundredths. How many one-hundredths? twelve. To what degree? about (twelve) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Are you asking about the simple subject or the complete subject? I would say that the complete subject would be 12% of the surface of the Earth. The simple subject would be "percent" and obviously 12 modifies percent, but as another poster said, percent is rather meaningless without the 12 to put parameters around it. If one were to diagram this, we would draw a line between the word "Earth" and the word "is". Everything on the left of the line is the subject and everything to the right of the line is the predicate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paige Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 12%. "About" is an adjective modifying the subject, and "of the surface" and "of the earth" are prepositional phrases. On the 12% vs just percent: Imagine if instead the 12% was converted to a decimal or a fraction ("About 12/100 of the surface of the earth") and the rationale for keeping the 12 becomes clearer. I agree with this. Percent is meaningless without the 12, and IMO a subject should not require a modifier for the sentence to make sense. You should be able to strip away all modifiers and the sentence still retain meaning. I can even see an argument that 12 is the noun and percent is the modifier. What kind of 12? 12 percent. However, I really think of 12% in this sentence as one solid subject with both parts being the subject. About 12% of the surface of the Earth is covered in water and ice. 12% is covered in water and ice. -meaningful sentence, although I'd hope other sentences would have provided clarity. Percent is covered in water and ice. - not meaningful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 12%. "About" is an adjective modifying the subject, and "of the surface" and "of the earth" are prepositional phrases. On the 12% vs just percent: Imagine if instead the 12% was converted to a decimal or a fraction ("About 12/100 of the surface of the earth") and the rationale for keeping the 12 becomes clearer. I agree with this. Percent is meaningless without the 12, and IMO a subject should not require a modifier for the sentence to make sense. You should be able to strip away all modifiers and the sentence still retain meaning. I can even see an argument that 12 is the noun and percent is the modifier. What kind of 12? 12 percent. However, I really think of 12% in this sentence as one solid subject with both parts being the subject. About 12% of the surface of the Earth is covered in water and ice. 12% is covered in water and ice. -meaningful sentence, although I'd hope other sentences would have provided clarity. Percent is covered in water and ice. - not meaningful. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5LittleMonkeys Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Of the surface\of the Earth are prep phrases so I don't think you can have a simple subject in either of those. I think 12 would be an adjective modifying percent. However, for some reason I still want to say that it's 12%. Is there some rule about mathematical expressions being treated differently than words? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krista in LA Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I voted 12% because I didn't take the time to read all of the options first. I think it should be percent although 12% definitely makes more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Try replacing 12 percent with half or a quarter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I vote 12%. I don't think it can be "percent" by itself, because in this sentence percent is an adverb, meaning "out of 100", which is a prepositional phrase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moki4 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I voted percent also, although I do not hold a grammatical Phd. Twelve is the adjective. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 about = adverb modifying the adjective 12twelve = adjective modifying the noun percent percent = subject of the surface = prepositional phrase modifying Earth? of the Earth = prepositional phrase modifying percent is covered = verb phrase in water and ice = prepositional phrase modifying is covered? That's my best guess. I think I'm missing something. But I don't know what so I'm guessing. Going to see what the grammarians say. That's what I came up with too - subject = percent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Changed my mind again. :D NM. Edited January 19, 2012 by angela in ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Sources: http://www.grammarbook.com/grammar/subjectVerbAgree.asp Rule 9 With words that indicate portions—percent, fraction, part, majority, some, all, none, remainder, and so forth —look at the noun in your of phrase (object of the preposition) to determine whether to use a singular or plural verb. If the object of the preposition is singular, use a singular verb. If the object of the preposition is plural, use a plural verb. Examples: Fifty percent of the pie has disappeared. Pie is the object of the preposition of. Fifty percent of the pies have disappeared. Pies is the object of the preposition. One-third of the city is unemployed. One-third of the people are unemployed. http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/grammarlogs3/grammarlogs427.htm http://www.mathematics-in-europe.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=28&lang=en Treat mathematical expressions as a single unit: To avoid confusion, treat an entire mathematical expression as a single grammatical unit. Thus if the subject of a sentence is a word, then the main verb should be a word as well. It should not be a symbol and should above all not be part of a mathematical expression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomandlorih Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 If we got down to simplest, it would be percent, but percent is a bit meaningless without the number modifying it, so I voted 12%. I know that technically includes the number modifier rather than just the noun; I could be easily persuaded that percent alone was correct. On a scientific rather than grammatical note, isn't way more than 12% of the Earth covered in water or ice? ;) :iagree: This was my thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) The subject is "parts." It is an implied subject. Re-thinking this answer due to it failing initial testing results. "12%" is good enough for government work :D [Perhaps government work ain't so bad Bill Edited January 19, 2012 by Spy Car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) about = adverb modifying the adjective 12twelve = adjective modifying the noun percent percent = subject of the surface = prepositional phrase modifying [percent]? of the Earth = prepositional phrase modifying [surface] is covered = verb phrase in water and ice = prepositional phrase modifying is covered? According to Those Who Know, this is the right approach. (Though They like to say things such as "genitive phrase complement" and the like.) Mrs. Mungo addresses one source of confusion in the sentence, by observing that percent (or %) is a number-transparent noun, with the singular surface requiring a singular verb. Twelve (or 12) is functioning as a d********r. Thus, percent (or %) is the big winner. Not that I expect The Hive to cave by Argument From Authority to Those Who Know. Edited January 19, 2012 by Sharon in Austin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I knew we would be hearing about "determiners" :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 I knew we would be hearing about "determiners" :D Bill Now I'm going to go edit that out, just like I would a nasty word. :D If people jump to the conclusion that the asterisks represent something worse, on your head be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMA Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The subject is "parts." It is an implied subject. Re-thinking this answer due to it failing initial testing results. "12%" is good enough for government work :D [Perhaps government work ain't so bad Bill :lol: My husband works for the government and "good enough for government work" is used more often than people realize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 According to my Reed-Kellogg Diagrammer: Percent is the subject is covered is the verb The rest is prepositional phrases. Oh, since I had no clue until I put the sentence in the diagrammer I voted Nutella. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) According to Those Who Know, this is the right approach. (Though They like to say things such as "genitive phrase complement" and the like.) Mrs. Mungo addresses one source of confusion in the sentence, by observing that percent (or %) is a number-transparent noun, with the singular surface requiring a singular verb. Twelve (or 12) is functioning as a d********r. Thus, percent (or %) is the big winner. Not that I expect The Hive to cave by Argument From Authority to Those Who Know. I still say the subject is 12%. My grammar books all say that mathematical phrases are used as a single grammatical unit. Edited January 19, 2012 by Mrs Mungo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 According to Huddleston & Pullum, Nutella turns out to be the implied Noun Phrase Head for a startling number of sentences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 According to Huddleston & Pullum, Nutella turns out to be the implied Noun Phrase Head for a startling number of sentences. Good to know. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 I disagree. As you say, the determiner is "surface," therefore, 12 is part of the subject. I'm a little puzzled as to how surface in the genitive phrase of the surface could be a d*******r [sorry, blame Bill]; but cardinal numerals in this kind of NP construction are definitely d********rs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Those d*mnators are tricky :D Bill (who can't believe the website filters ****) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I'm a little puzzled as to how surface in the genitive phrase of the surface could be a d*******r [sorry, blame Bill]; but cardinal numerals in this kind of NP construction are definitely d********rs. I edited due to being drunk when I was writing that, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Mike's? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Mike's? Bill I'm not that much of a lightweight, but it is only 4 pm, so...sure. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi @ Mt Hope Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I voted percent. Twelve would be an adjective modifying percent, and about is an adverb modifying 12. About is being used like nearly, almost, or approximately. These words are all adverbs. The other nouns are part of prepositional phrases, which makes it impossible for them to be the subject. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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