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I am thankful we have a break from long division this week. I don't remember what we're scheduled to cover but I'm just happy it's not long division. Basically all we got done this week was math because my daughter who is perfectly capable of doing the work doesn't want to do them so she just sits there and stares at the paper. She managed to get dh to do every problem for her one day this week by playing dumb.

 

My point is,..I feel your pain:confused:

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Make LONG problems all divided by 2. Have her recite the steps as she does them, in a sing song voice, until she absorbs the rhythm.

 

Problems like 98563267434 divided by 2.

 

Do you have any printable board game worksheets that you can write the problems on? I got mine in the monthly themed workbooks for $1.00 at one of the scholastic ebook sales. I'll check if they are still being offered.

 

EDIT: It's not on sale this time :-( You can see this months game is a dragon on pages 80-81.

http://teacherexpress.scholastic.com/january-monthly-idea-book

Edited by Hunter
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I am thankful we have a break from long division this week. I don't remember what we're scheduled to cover but I'm just happy it's not long division. Basically all we got done this week was math because my daughter who is perfectly capable of doing the work doesn't want to do them so she just sits there and stares at the paper. She managed to get dh to do every problem for her one day this week by playing dumb.

 

My point is,..I feel your pain:confused:

 

 

I am really starting to wonder. When I sit there with her and talk her through every single problem she does fine. But- then I go to help another dc with something and she sits there. Staring at her paper. Blank start. Then says "I don't get it" I just don't know if she gets it or not. I am about to take a break from Horizons and get some kind of math booky thing from the library for a while. Maybe they have a book about division-- hmmmmm.... Off to check their website :D

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My daughter happens to be in a really honest phase right now so she admits that she can do it she just doesn't want to. If I don't sit with her she doesn't get it done. Unfortunately dh didn't know she could do it so he felt the need to help. I recently starts added some living math books to our curriculum and it is improving her attitude some. She is very accelerated in everything but just hates math. She 's a very compliant and obedient child...except when it comes to completing her math.

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Make LONG problems all divided by 2. Have her recite the steps as she does them, in a sing song voice, until she absorbs the rhythm.

 

Problems like 98563267434 divided by 2.

 

Do you have any printable board game worksheets that you can write the problems on? I got mine in the monthly themed workbooks for $1.00 at one of the scholastic ebook sales. I'll check if they are still being offered.

 

EDIT: It's not on sale this time :-( You can see this months game is a dragon on pages 80-81.

http://teacherexpress.scholastic.com/january-monthly-idea-book

 

 

I will try that! Thank you

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My daughter happens to be in a really honest phase right now so she admits that she can do it she just doesn't want to. If I don't sit with her she doesn't get it done. Unfortunately dh didn't know she could do it so he felt the need to help. I recently starts added some living math books to our curriculum and it is improving her attitude some. She is very accelerated in everything but just hates math. She 's a very compliant and obedient child...except when it comes to completing her math.

 

 

 

This describes my daughter as well. Normally even math is easy for her, except for this. That is why I am really struggling with does she know it? Does she not? I don't understand what the problem is. She can do it if I sit there and say what is next, then what? Now what do you do? Very rarely (but sometimes) I have to remind her of the next step.

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I really found using base ten blocks to be helpful. When learning long division, after the initial teaching with the blocks, if my son made a mistake or would be stuck, I'd have him pull out he blocks and demonstrate the problem. Then he could write each step along with the blocks.

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Repeating the division with very, very small numbers may help.

 

But FWIW, I didn't "get" long division until we did it with polynomials in algebra. Very suddenly, I remember the thought of "OH! So this is what they were trying to make me do! Just the x's were all 10s before!"

 

And I ended up majoring in math :P

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Its been 2 months :banghead: and she still doesn't get it :banghead: We do horizons so we can't just skip it and move on because its in every few lessons (which is exactly what dd needs)

 

But-- I think long division is going to be the end of us. :crying:

 

 

 

:rant:

 

Have you tried making an index card listing the steps? That helped my older 2 boys cement the steps.

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I really found using base ten blocks to be helpful. When learning long division, after the initial teaching with the blocks, if my son made a mistake or would be stuck, I'd have him pull out he blocks and demonstrate the problem. Then he could write each step along with the blocks.

 

Play money could work too.

 

Make up a division problem like $972 divided among several people. In fact, I'd keep the same dividend and redo the problem several times with different divisors.

 

Have her figure out how many $100 bills each person gets. What is left over? Regroup that into tens. How many tens does each person get? What is left over? Regroup that into ones. Is there a remainder?

 

If you don't have play money already, there are a lot of sites with printable money manipulatives for math use. Or you could do cents instead of dollars and use dollar bills, dimes and pennies (though that might cause some confusion if she's used to writing dollars and cents with a decimal point).

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we use Horizons 5. My son and I were about to kill each other last week over long division. He can do it. I have seen him do the work with no help from me, but last week he just sat there. Occasionally would dance a little, hum a little, talk to himself a little, but do no math work. The test # 6? He spent 2 hours doing 6 problems. I gave it to him the next day...another 2 hours and he pushed through to get it done. And he did well.

 

If you can just get past test 6 it's over!!! We were counting the days. Have daily pep talks. It was so much my son was just DONE. But like you I needed to know he really knew it before moving on.

 

We do skip things in Horizons if we can. But long division wasn't one I was willing to skip problems. :tongue_smilie:

 

Anyway you aren't alone. I haven't ever seen my kid just sit and do nothing until long division in Horizons 5 last week. I was ready to find the local school!

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I'd also look into some picture books about division, do some math journaling, and look for whatever manipulatives are available.

 

Rewards and incentives can sometimes be helpful. Are there any adventure computer games that require solving division problems to get the character to the next level? Are you willing to give her a tiny piece of candy for each problem completed correctly in a set amount of time? The shorter the period of time and the fewer problems, the better, rather than assigning a whole set.

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My dd got stuck at the "estimate what you think the answer *might* be". It was like I was saying - "see that 54? round it to 50. now just look at the 5, how many times would 5 go into that number? ok, now it's a 54 again and you multiply..." eek! We found another method to do long division and she's slowly gotten better every day. I started off just giving 2 long division (and she'd get half right, lol). Then increased to 3...then 4, etc. Her accuracy eventually increased, it just took a long time. Now she can do several problems and get them all right:) Anyhow, she uses Partial Quotient Division, linked below:

 

Khan academy video 1

 

Khan academy video 2

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Make LONG problems all divided by 2. Have her recite the steps as she does them, in a sing song voice, until she absorbs the rhythm.

 

 

 

This is a lot like what we did: divide, multiply, subtract and "wheeeee," with "wheeee" being the dropping down of the next number. The pencil stayed on the board the entire time, and we repeated, over and over: divide, multiple, subract and wheeeee. I would work on the steps, forget understanding, for a while. My personal experience if that the steps come first, understanding later--often much later.

 

But yeah, I felt that my daughter would never get it. She did, though, and yours will, too!

 

Terri

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Long division is a big leap because of all the steps involved. It's absolutely natural that a dc would get confused and overwhelmed in the beginning. The stress of it all is why she does better when you're nearby with her. When you go away, it just seems too much. Then when there are several problems of this type, it's just really overwhelming. Not all dc feel this way, but I think a lot do.

 

I agree with the other posters about writing down the steps. I like the index card idea. I just taught dd, "Does McDonald Sell Cheeseburgers?" DMSC, divide, multiply, subtract, compare. Then I wrote the order with the signs next to each problem.

 

I also learned during this critical time not to have dd do more than two long division problems per day. She still learned it. With Horizons, she's going to get it again and again. If it's not there everyday, because of the Horizon review sequence, just grab two problems that you skipped from an earlier day.

 

It really took a long time for dd to feel comfortable with long division. I mean YEARS. She is not a weak math student. It just takes her time. She gets perfect scores in math on standardized tests, but you wouldn't necessarily have known her strength back when she was learning long division.

 

IMHO, it's key to work with your dc when they hit these tough spots so they don't get so overwhelmed that they begin to hate math. There were times I did have to make that commitment to sit with dd for math everyday. And I have three other kids. It just hit a point that I realized that's what I would have to do.

 

You may want to also write out one problem for her each day. Let her tell you everything to write so she's really doing it. The dd that had such problem with long division also has a general frustration with writing. We haven't identified the cause, if it's a visual-motor issue, dysgraphia or dyspraxia, or something with her working memory. Sometimes it's the writing that overloads her on top of the other cognitive processes. You may want to experiment with your dd to see if writing for her helps the transition to long division.

 

HTH!

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We used two things that really helped dd11 at this stage. The first;

Does

McDonalds

Sell

Burgers?

 

This helped her remember the steps, divide, multiply, subtract, bring down. I wrote it at the top of every page for several weeks.

The second thing was similar to what an above poster said. I took an index card and used different colored pencils for each step. I then made a key on the back of the card. So step one which is divide was done in green, so on the back of the card step 1 = green was the key. Step 2 which is multiply, was done in orange, so on the back of the card step 2 = orange. I hope this makes sense. These 2 things repeated over the next several weeks seemed to really cement the steps. This is of course assuming you are meaning the problem is remembering the steps and not a lack of understanding the concept.

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What year of Horizon? If it is Horizon 4, my son could do the two digit divided by one with remainers, but not 3 digits by 2 digits. I went and asked a lady at my church who teaches 4th grade and she said they don't teach that at ps until 5th grade. So I decided to just cross out all of those problems. He just wasn't ready for them. He was barely comfortable with dividing that long number by one digit. When we got to the skill in 5th grade, he could do it.. So you can skip them and come back. I did with my middle child.

 

Its been 2 months :banghead: and she still doesn't get it :banghead: We do horizons so we can't just skip it and move on because its in every few lessons (which is exactly what dd needs)

 

But-- I think long division is going to be the end of us. :crying:

 

 

 

:rant:

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:grouphug:

 

It took my daughter a while to get it. The Khan videos helped, as did showing it with money as people have suggested.

 

Also, she does better with short division, she is now allowed to use that, here is a video about that, there was a better one linked somewhere, but this one is OK, it shows how to do it.

 

 

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This describes my daughter as well. Normally even math is easy for her, except for this. That is why I am really struggling with does she know it? Does she not? I don't understand what the problem is. She can do it if I sit there and say what is next, then what? Now what do you do? Very rarely (but sometimes) I have to remind her of the next step.

I think the problem is that she doesn't understand why it works the way it does, so it's just a bunch of confusing steps to her. I wish I were there to help you over this hump. SM as I recall had a clear way of teaching this...

 

With the utmost respect to other posters, what your daughter absolutely does not need is mnemonic devices to remember pencil-and-paper steps, since that would almost certainly be to the detriment of her understanding of what's going on. She needs to understand it before she proceeds; then she will not only learn how to do the calculation, she'll learn that she's capable of understanding the math. If she memorizes rote steps to get through calculations, she'll learn that whenever she finds something difficult, it's best to try to learn some sequence of steps she doesn't understand, but follow that sequence to the T, so she can get the problem off her plate.

 

Try explaining in as many different ways as you can think of, preferably with manipulatives or graphics some of the time, that long division is a process of taking up big blocks, then littler blocks, then littler ones etc., until there's no more room left. That might work.

 

When you do each procedural pencil-and-paper step, link it to the conceptual part of the process that she will understand by then (with enough gentle repetition and different ways of looking at it). For example, when you're carrying a digit down, help her to understand that really there are invisible zeros trailing after it (unless it's the last one), to reinforce that you are trying to fit in as many big blocks in as possible at that step, and you're just not worried about the smaller stuff yet.

 

Also, go from small to large/more complex. Initially just set up a problem with the possibly-scary notation, but just nine divided by three or a similar easy single-digit problem with no remainder. Have her do those until she's very comfortable. Then introduce no-remainder problems with just one extra digit, and drive home the large-to-small process that's at the heart of long division.

 

Keep reminding her that long division is about fitting blocks of something into a larger space, and that's all it is. These sorts of ideas will help prevent confusion about what a remainder is. Explain a remainder as a remainder, and as part of a fraction.

 

Also, realize that her difficulty with long division may stem from a basic lack of understanding of why multi-digit multiplication works the way it does, and in the direction it does. Does she understand why you start with the ones and go higher when you do long multiplication?

 

And trying different curriculums, I guess, is another idea if you can't think of anything else to try. Maybe she just doesn't gel with the way Horizons is teaching it. The most important thing is to stay calm (both of you) and realize you'll get through it. The problem with long division is usually that the pencil-and-paper process obscures understanding of the true algorithm at work.

 

ETA: Perhaps you should actually switch to a superior curriculum. I can completely understand the desire for a religious science curriculum if you believe a certain way, but there's no need for a religious math curriculum; you just need the best one available for getting the concepts across. Did you give Singapore Math a try yet?

Edited by Iucounu
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You could let her watch the Khan Academy videos related to long division. He's great at explaining that kind of stuff so that anyone can understand it.

 

Yup, she was more confused than ever.

 

 

Are you almost of the end of book 1? ;)

Book 2 has most often other topics.

FYI Long Division will come back in book 1 of grade 5 AND grade 6.

So if she don't get it all now, you have a next year try ;)

 

Last year we had the annual tears at the end of book 1, this year for the first time not. We have almost finished book 1 grade 5... Book 2 is always easier here.

 

HTH

 

 

Yes almost done. Soo- how detrimental do you think it would be to just allow her to skip the division sections in this book then tackle it again next time it comes up?

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Its been 2 months :banghead: and she still doesn't get it :banghead: We do horizons so we can't just skip it and move on because its in every few lessons (which is exactly what dd needs)

 

But-- I think long division is going to be the end of us. :crying:

 

 

 

:rant:

 

I wish I could find a link to the article (maybe someone can help me out here?), but I remember reading Joan Cotter (Right Start math) explaining why long division isn't absolutely necessary anymore, and if a child is having huge struggles with it, just skip it.

 

IIRC, she wrote that memorizing multiplication facts and "short" division is FAR more important. For long division, just use a calculator.

 

ETA: found it! It was a message on the Right Start yahoo group. Here's a link: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RightStart/message/15747

 

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to copy messages from the group to a public forum, so if you want to see what she wrote, you'll have to join the group. (I don't think you need mod approval to join, so it's quick and painless)

Edited by shinyhappypeople
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Have you tried short division? I've found that it works well as an intermediate step to long division.

 

In response to the idea that long division isn't necessary--it is necessary to understand the process as it comes up again in algebra when dividing polynomials.

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Its been 2 months :banghead: and she still doesn't get it :banghead: We do horizons so we can't just skip it and move on because its in every few lessons (which is exactly what dd needs)

 

But-- I think long division is going to be the end of us. :crying:

 

 

 

:rant:

 

Try Math Mammoth's topical books. She needs to see the why of it..not just how to do it but why it works. Why you bring it down, why you put the placeholder zero, etc. Rote memory of steps, especially when there are so many steps like long division, is really difficult! With a little conceptual teaching, she might breeze right through it :) Hopefully. ;)

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ETA: Perhaps you should actually switch to a superior curriculum. I can completely understand the desire for a religious science curriculum if you believe a certain way, but there's no need for a religious math curriculum; you just need the best one available for getting the concepts across. Did you give Singapore Math a try yet?

 

:blink:

Really? Do you really think she's using Horizons because it is "religious?" :001_huh: :confused:

 

Anyway, I feel your pain. Been there, done that with my dd#2. :banghead:

When I pull out the base 10 blocks, the money (unless there is some sort of deal where she can keep some of it), or any other manipulative, she just screams louder. She HATES them.

 

She's the kind who can & will do the problem, but only if I sit near her. She doesn't actually need my help (anymore). She just wants me to feel her pain. So, she makes sure I'm within arms reach so I can hear her humming, fuming, toe-tapping, anguish-breathing, sighing, etc.

 

And she's not even in the LONG, long division yet (like dd#1 - who completely understands how to do them but also makes me know how much she dislikes them).

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I think the problem is that she doesn't understand why it works the way it does, so it's just a bunch of confusing steps to her. I wish I were there to help you over this hump. SM as I recall had a clear way of teaching this...

 

With the utmost respect to other posters, what your daughter absolutely does not need is mnemonic devices to remember pencil-and-paper steps, since that would almost certainly be to the detriment of her understanding of what's going on. She needs to understand it before she proceeds; then she will not only learn how to do the calculation, she'll learn that she's capable of understanding the math. If she memorizes rote steps to get through calculations, she'll learn that whenever she finds something difficult, it's best to try to learn some sequence of steps she doesn't understand, but follow that sequence to the T, so she can get the problem off her plate.

 

Try explaining in as many different ways as you can think of, preferably with manipulatives or graphics some of the time, that long division is a process of taking up big blocks, then littler blocks, then littler ones etc., until there's no more room left. That might work.

 

When you do each procedural pencil-and-paper step, link it to the conceptual part of the process that she will understand by then (with enough gentle repetition and different ways of looking at it). For example, when you're carrying a digit down, help her to understand that really there are invisible zeros trailing after it (unless it's the last one), to reinforce that you are trying to fit in as many big blocks in as possible at that step, and you're just not worried about the smaller stuff yet.

 

Also, go from small to large/more complex. Initially just set up a problem with the possibly-scary notation, but just nine divided by three or a similar easy single-digit problem with no remainder. Have her do those until she's very comfortable. Then introduce no-remainder problems with just one extra digit, and drive home the large-to-small process that's at the heart of long division.

 

Keep reminding her that long division is about fitting blocks of something into a larger space, and that's all it is. These sorts of ideas will help prevent confusion about what a remainder is. Explain a remainder as a remainder, and as part of a fraction.

 

Also, realize that her difficulty with long division may stem from a basic lack of understanding of why multi-digit multiplication works the way it does, and in the direction it does. Does she understand why you start with the ones and go higher when you do long multiplication?

 

And trying different curriculums, I guess, is another idea if you can't think of anything else to try. Maybe she just doesn't gel with the way Horizons is teaching it. The most important thing is to stay calm (both of you) and realize you'll get through it. The problem with long division is usually that the pencil-and-paper process obscures understanding of the true algorithm at work.

 

ETA: Perhaps you should actually switch to a superior curriculum. I can completely understand the desire for a religious science curriculum if you believe a certain way, but there's no need for a religious math curriculum; you just need the best one available for getting the concepts across. Did you give Singapore Math a try yet?

:iagree:

Catchy phrases don't teach math, and only work for arriving at a correct answer as long as the phrase itself isn't forgotten. If you can find a way to get across to her what is actually happening, she won't need to remember the steps because she'll just know what to do. Maybe try the MM topical book?

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:iagree:

Catchy phrases don't teach math, and only work for arriving at a correct answer as long as the phrase itself isn't forgotten. If you can find a way to get across to her what is actually happening, she won't need to remember the steps because she'll just know what to do. Maybe try the MM topical book?

 

I have to disagree because there are different kinds of thinkers. I have four kids here, and they are all different when it comes to math.

 

I have one highly conceptual dd. She understands the whys without me having to explain them; she explains them to me. It's just the kind of thinker she is. However, with long division in particular, she really needed something catchy to remember the steps.

 

Some conceptual thinkers absolutely need the steps broken down. They can see the big picture but not those small, necessary steps as easily. They are also the ones that need constant reinforcement of the steps. That's why the "catchiness" can be particularly helpful.

 

Meanwhile, I have another dd was fine with only the concepts. She could just figure things out from there and would prefer it that way, without any tedious reinforcement of the steps.

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Its been 2 months :banghead: and she still doesn't get it :banghead: We do horizons so we can't just skip it and move on because its in every few lessons (which is exactly what dd needs)

 

But-- I think long division is going to be the end of us. :crying:

 

 

 

:rant:

 

 

When my kids have problems with this, I sit with them and do 2 or 3 long division problems each day, until they recall the steps themselves. No pressure, just 2 or 3, all depending on everyone's mood that day. If she knew you would stay with her till she knows all the steps herself, maybe that will take away some of her frustration and help her to understand it better.

If you think about it, there are a lot of steps in long division and she may be having problems remembering all of them.

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I also found that using graph paper really helped keep long division organized - one number per square on the graph paper. It keeps all the numbers lined up and helps create a visual "cue" when starting out in long division. When I taught in public school and again when I homeschooled my kids, I always used graph paper for division and mulitiplication - it just really helps!

 

I also agree with the poster that mentioned "color coding". It might seem awkward, at first, and a bother, but it also helps create a visual aspect for multiplication and division. (I quoted the other poster below for a reminder!) I would also suggest trying to do your math side by side with each of you having your own white boards and color markers. That way you can work the problems together so your child gets the visual aspect along with the actual writing of the problems and can hear you explain outloud what each step is - you know, kind of multi-sensory. And last of all, take a break and do some other math for a bit A couple of days off really helps - both of you!

 

Good luck,

Myra

 

 

Other posters msg -

We used two things that really helped dd11 at this stage. The first;

Does

McDonalds

Sell

Burgers?

 

This helped her remember the steps, divide, multiply, subtract, bring down. I wrote it at the top of every page for several weeks.

The second thing was similar to what an above poster said. I took an index card and used different colored pencils for each step. I then made a key on the back of the card. So step one which is divide was done in green, so on the back of the card step 1 = green was the key. Step 2 which is multiply, was done in orange, so on the back of the card step 2 = orange. I hope this makes sense. These 2 things repeated over the next several weeks seemed to really cement the steps. This is of course assuming you are meaning the problem is remembering the steps and not a lack of understanding the concept.

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We use Horizons math too. Here are a couple of things we have done to make long division less painful for dd. (She dislikes make in general and hates division and fractions.) (Which are really just another form of division.)

 

Anyway, two things helped. One was to use a whiteboard to work the problems together. The other was to use either graph paper or to turn lined notebook paper on its side to use the lines as columns. Dd prefers to use the notebook paper most of the time. This helped her keep her numbers in the right columns. We also memorized the Dead Monkeys Smell Bad Mnemonic: Divide, Multiply, Subtract, Bring down. I also only required that dd do every other division problem for awhile. I know Horizons has enough practice and review that she would still work plenty of problems over the year.

 

And yes, I sat with dd for days and days (still do for math most days) while she worked her math problems.

 

HTH

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After many failed attempts, DS learned an alternative to long division called Partial Quotient Division. As DS grew older and began working with decimals, we moved on to traditional long division. For DS, the multiplication practice helped tremendously. We also used metric graph paper and colored pencils.

 

 

A nice youtube video:

 

Khan demonstrates it:

http://www.khanacademy.org/video/partial-quotient-division?playlist=Arithmetic

Edited by Heathermomster
Because home girl can't spell or type..
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