Am I being too harsh? Any other ideas?

[bnrmom]

We have had an ongoing issue with my 7.5yo being inappropriately physical with his older brother when he gets angry. I understand that they are two boys and that brothers will fight. But, the one thing he does that I do not stand for is choking his brother. This is in anger, not play. Ds10 does something to anger him, and ds7 reacts by putting his hands around his throat and squeezing. Now, he doesn't hang on and try to actually strangle him, but still, I will not have it.

 

We have talked about appropriate and inappropriate responses. We have role played. We have punished. We have taken away video games, we have sent him to his room, we have made him scrub floors, write notes of apology, write sentences, do his brother's chores, etc. It just doesn't matter. He will get finished scrubbing the bathroom floor, and then turn around and do it again 10 minutes later.

 

I finally hit a wall a few days ago and told him that if he ever put his hands on his brother's throat again, he would be banned from all screens for 30 days. I added that if the family is watching something, he would have to leave the room. I reminded him again about it the next day, as he often "forgets" consequences I lay out for him. Well, today on our hike, ds10 scared him by running up and saying "ha!" and ds7 turned around and choked him. So I told him, okay, that's it. 30 days.

 

And tonight we have our long planned final Harry Potter movie night. The kids have been waiting for this for months. We finally finished all the books and have time to watch it. And now ds7 is going to be in his room.

 

I'm very sad, and honestly would like to find a way to deal with this without this kind of punishment. Any thoughts?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

What is he supposed to do when his brother deliberately scares him? I'm not condoning the choking, of course. I'm just noticing that there are two misbehaving little boys here, and wondering if the little one has been given any tools or strategies for responding to his big brother's misbehavior.

[AimeeM]

I think you should have a talk with the 10 year old about doing things he KNOWS angers his younger brother. He is much more capable at 10, of understanding *why* he shouldn't deliberately scare his brother; than his brother is able to apply instinct and impulse control at 7. Brother scares him, little boy reacts.

JMO.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

You should stick to your guns. It would be very difficult for me to make my kid miss the much anticipated final Harry Potter movie, but if you told him the consequences and he did it anyway, you have to keep your word. :grouphug:

 

ETA: I agree that you need to have a talk with the older one about antagonizing the younger one, too. We have a similar dynamic with our boys.

[Murphy101]

You should stick to your guns. It would be very difficult for me to make my kid miss the much anticipated final Harry Potter movie, but if you told him the consequences and he did it anyway, you have to keep your word. :grouphug:

 

ETA: I agree that you need to have a talk with the older one about antagonizing the younger one, too. We have a similar dynamic with our boys.

 

I agree and I would discuss with older brother that antagonizing his little brother will result in the same punishment for him.

[Abeth78]

I would totally recommend running out to the library and getting (and reading) the book Siblings Without Rivalry. It has really helped me with the aggression between my two boys. It is a great book! It would give some very sound practical advice.

 

To answer your question though in short, there should be a "no hurting" one another policy in the house. Period.

 

The great thing about the book I suggested is, it helps address the larger picture because there is probably more to what is going on than meets the eye (in the boys minds that is) and I would worry about what the 10 year old will do when you are not looking in retaliation.

[Mommy22alyns]

You should stick to your guns. It would be very difficult for me to make my kid miss the much anticipated final Harry Potter movie, but if you told him the consequences and he did it anyway, you have to keep your word. :grouphug:

 

ETA: I agree that you need to have a talk with the older one about antagonizing the younger one, too. We have a similar dynamic with our boys.

 

 

:iagree: We have something similar here too. Sylvia tends to lash out at Rebecca, but Rebecca is far from innocent.

[Chris in VA]

As hard as it is, I think you need to keep your word. If a boundary moves when a kid pushes, he will continue to push it. And, very gently, I am learning not to threaten a consequence unless I'm willing to follow thru, each and every time. I'm sorry it's so hard. :grouphug:

 

That said, you will have the opportunity to talk about how it just wasn't as fun, watching the movie, without ds, and let him know his behaviour has an impact on everyone, and that everyone wants him to succeed, and it makes you sad when there is strife in the family.

 

Further, I'd come up with some things he can do instead of choking--make a new habit. It will take time and work.

 

I admire you for not allowing it.

[Desert Rat]

I agree that you need to follow through with your original punishment. HOWEVER, I have two boys of similar ages and I would definitely punish the older boy for antagonizing. They are both well aware that I do not tolerate retaliation ("He did xyz first!"). But, I also know what it feels like to be pushed and pushed and feel ready to hurt someone.

In the OP's scenario where the older boy scared the younger, well, the automatic response is to lash out sometimes. For instance, I learned at a young age that if I wait around a corner to scare my dad, his first instinct is to punch. Now, he didn't get me (I ducked), but I never did it again either. I wasn't there so I don't know if younger bro's response was automatic instinct or anger.

End of story. They both don't get to watch the movie. One for disobeying your word, the other for antagonizing his brother when he knew what his brother would do. 10 is old enough to know better.

[Samiam]

I'd stick to the rules you laid out. It's tough sometimes for you and him, but your DS needs to learn to curb that impulse. Sometimes missing something that you've really wanted is the only way to get the clue.

 

From the sounds of it, that is his first response, to go right for the choking. Not good.

 

I'm not condoning your older DS's actions, and we have a similiar dynamic here with three boys....on the other hand, as I've told my children.....1. You can not control other's actions, only your own. In this case, regardless of what your DS10 did, your DS7 went right for the choke-hold, even though he'd been warned at least twice in the last 2 days. 2. The other thing I've told my children....when someone does something to wrong, but you respond in also a the wrong way...you've just turn that big bad "Light Beam of Trouble" on yourself by your action. I can't focus on correcting the first behaviour when the 2nd behaviour is SO wrong.

 

Honestly, running up to someone and yelling "Boo!" or whatever is not unreasonable...it's boys being boys, siblings being siblings....unless one has already done that, and been told not too...your first DS probably did not think that his "Boo" would result in being in a choke-hold. We do that quite often around here, and we all have a good laugh. One particular DS has made it known he does not like that, and so we don't do hide around doors/corners and scare him. It's not fun for him. But unless we all knew that in advance, we wouldn't expect such a violent reaction. Was your older DS told today, or in the past, not to do that to younger DS? My point is....if DS7 had turned around and reacted with laughter, then DS10 would not be in trouble right? So why should he be in trouble because DS7 reacted with violence (unless DS10 was already told not to do this).

 

DS7 needs to find a different way to react....that's your responsibility, to help him think of different reactions.....but he's got to stop the choke-hold. What happens when someone else runs up and tries to "Boo" him? It's going to be a much bigger deal when he tries that on someone else's child. We would no longer be hanging out with you if your DS did that to my DS.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Samiam

[bnrmom]

Thanks for the replies. My older son is no angel, I didn't mean to make it come off that way. However, he doesn't tend to hurt ds7. Make him crazy, yeah, but nothing out of the realm of normal sibling stuff. And while I would love to have a no hurting of any kind rule, it's just not realistic. They're going to shove each other now and then, someone's going to get a punch to the arm, those kinds of things. But it's the chokehold in particular that I won't allow. As far as I know it's something special for ds10 - I've never known ds7 to do it to any other child.

 

I do think it's part natural reaction - he's found something that works to stop his brother, and he is a bit more "delicate" than his brother is, for lack of a better word. But, he needs a different natural reaction. I think today has really affected him.

 

Movie time is in about 1/2 hour and as far as ds7 knows he's not watching it, but ds10 has come to me privately and said that he really wants ds7 to watch the movie with him. Also, ds7, of his own volition, wrote a really sweet note of apology to ds10 and gave him a big hug. And ds7 and I had a big talk about how this affects the family, and suggestions as to how he might react in the future.

 

I don't know. I'm pretty careful not to issue idle threats, and I am pretty consistent with follow through, but the jury is still out about tonight's movie. It won't happen again for at least 2-3 weeks because my mom is going in for a big surgery tomorrow and will be out of commission until then (she is part of this movie night).

[Melissa B]

In our home the punishment would stick. But, the family movie would also be pushed back to another time.

[NanceXToo]

30 days was a long time, because what are you going to do if it happens again in that 30 days? Add another month? You might end up getting him so mired down in months without screen time that he won't even care because he'll never see a way out. Maybe you should have made the punishment a week at a time. But what's done is done now and I think that you have to stick to what you said and make him miss the movie and see the punishment through because he has to know the seriousness of what he's done and that he can't put his hands on people like that and know that you meant what you said. Choking is scary!

 

It sounds kind of like he needs some anger management techniques though and I'd look into ways of researching anger management techniques for children.

 

And while I don't see a playful running up and yelling "ha" as something punishment worthy on your older son's behalf, I do agree that generally speaking he's got to know not to antagonize or push the buttons of your younger son on purpose.

 

P.S. I do not agree with pushing the family movie back to another time. It would not be fair to make older son wait a month or more to watch something he's been so looking forward to on top of having been choked yet again because younger son couldn't control himself yet again.

[Joker]

Have you explained well why you think some pushing and shoving is ok but not hands around the throat? I think you should tell them both that none of it is ok until you get younger ds under control. I can see why it might be confusing ( and a hard thing to stop) since he's only seven and that has become his first reaction to older brother.

[Myeightkiddies]

I agree that 30 days is too long. Certainly the punishment fits the crime, but you are also trying to train him to stop this behavior. Shorter term punishments are easy to enforce. If you give him the 30 days then drop it due to whatever (such as family movie night) he won't learn. Make it shorter, enforce it no matter what, then if he does it again assign the punishment again.

 

The older brother needs to be punished as well. It doesn't need to be the same punishment but if there is none, the 7 year old will resent it. If that happens his behavior may not improve. Not antagonizing the 7 year old is important during this training time.

[MHowell]

I agree that you need to follow through with your original punishment. HOWEVER, I have two boys of similar ages and I would definitely punish the older boy for antagonizing. They are both well aware that I do not tolerate retaliation ("He did xyz first!"). But, I also know what it feels like to be pushed and pushed and feel ready to hurt someone.

In the OP's scenario where the older boy scared the younger, well, the automatic response is to lash out sometimes. For instance, I learned at a young age that if I wait around a corner to scare my dad, his first instinct is to punch. Now, he didn't get me (I ducked), but I never did it again either. I wasn't there so I don't know if younger bro's response was automatic instinct or anger.

End of story. They both don't get to watch the movie. One for disobeying your word, the other for antagonizing his brother when he knew what his brother would do. 10 is old enough to know better.

 

:iagree:

[Jean in Newcastle]

30 days was a long time, because what are you going to do if it happens again in that 30 days? Add another month? You might end up getting him so mired down in months without screen time that he won't even care because he'll never see a way out. Maybe you should have made the punishment a week at a time. But what's done is done now and I think that you have to stick to what you said and make him miss the movie and see the punishment through because he has to know the seriousness of what he's done and that he can't put his hands on people like that and know that you meant what you said. Choking is scary!

 

It sounds kind of like he needs some anger management techniques though and I'd look into ways of researching anger management techniques for children.

 

And while I don't see a playful running up and yelling "ha" as something punishment worthy on your older son's behalf, I do agree that generally speaking he's got to know not to antagonize or push the buttons of your younger son on purpose.

 

P.S. I do not agree with pushing the family movie back to another time. It would not be fair to make older son wait a month or more to watch something he's been so looking forward to on top of having been choked yet again because younger son couldn't control himself yet again.

 

:iagree:

[Pamela H in Texas]

Well, I never would have such a long punishment. I seriously doubt it will help much, if at all. And it just seems silly to drag it out so long especially with it being so unrelated anyway (though possibly not; some boys who see lots of tv, esp certain types of shows, ARE more likely to be aggressive). But since you said it, I'd probably stick to it (though I might say til the end of the month, restating it for the rest of the punishment to give us a reprieve come Feb 1st).

 

Anyway, but some other thoughts:

 

1) I am *really* surprised about all the posts about the older brother. Seriously, assuming there isn't some real mental, emotional, physical issue with your younger child, playfully scaring is just part of being brothers. Additionally, though you *can* control your 10yr old, you won't be controlling every other child (and later adult) that comes in contact with your son. Your son needs to learn to behave appropriately regardless of other people's behavior.

 

2) I would *definitely* encourage the boys "blessing" one another regularly. This is where the kids would be encouraged to look for ways to do *really* nice things for one another. How often would be up to you. I would probably aim for 3 per week to start with. You might talk with them about ideas.

 

3) I would focus on helping your little one work on what TO do with all that energy and upset. Choking is NOT okay (and btw, as one who had a kid doing that, it is also well outside normal range and if you can't extinguish it, you may need to get additional help). A LOT of times, kids need to know what TO do rather than simply being told not to do something. So, what are some ideas? Brainstorm with him. For my kiddo, I had to teach that something else needed to be done with the hands to control them. Then, we could move from there.

 

4) Behavior is a symptom, not something by itself. Does he need more love, acceptance, physical affection, etc? We spend A LOT of time rocking, petting, wrestling, holding, etc. It really does make a difference. Though we do use some punishment (I am ashamed to say), we mostly do "time-in," not to do the teaching discipline (that comes later), but to reconnect because behavior is based in fear, helplessness, loneliness, and various needs such as attention, help, etc.

 

ETA: My number 1 is not to suggest that I wouldn't work with the older brother. Obviously, he doesn't need to be antagonizing him regularly.

Edited January 9, 2012 by 2J5M9K

[dragons in the flower bed]

I don't think that's too harsh, and I lean towards the liberal non-punitive camp of childrearing. Violence towards each other is just not tolerated in this household, period, and we will do anything we have to do to get someone to realize it is never okay and stop.

[Starr]

Both boys need to stop, not just one. I would put them both in their rooms.

[Dino]

Agree with Sibs without Rival book, makes HUGE differences in how we handle sib issues and it's been NIGHT & DAY between mine!

 

Agree you need to talk to the 10 year old, he appears to be just as much at fault.

 

And think not letting your 10 year old see the movie either would help him realize HIS part in all of this.

 

:grouphug:

 

all that said, 30 days does seem a bit harsh. Can you consider a family meeting or a ONE ON ONE heart to heart chat with the younger one to try and understand his reaction? Have him come up with a suitable consquence that you both can live with.

 

I'd wait on the family movie until the entire family can join in. It will make them realize you are a FAMILY that needs to work together, rather then against one another.

 

Side Note: Not saying this is the case in YOUR home, because I clearly have no idea. There is a part in the sib book that reminds me of a good friend: IRL my good friend has a 13 year old son and 9 year old daughter. In the mother's eyes the son is calm, gentle, caring, good student, star athlete, the all around golden child and the daughter is the 'wild one' her 'messy child' 'emotional child', etc so on some level the older boy can do no wrong and the younger one does plenty wrong. She adores her children, but because of this, she doesn't see the massive amounts of tormenting the older one does to the younger one. The daughter lashes out with emotional outbursts and doesn't get help from her mom until it's reached a horrible scene. Her brother is CONSTANTLY ON HER CASE, nagging her, scaring her, teasing her, basically sibling torture. He tells her there are ghosts that live in her bedroom, he creeks at night on the walls of her room, over all just freaks her out all the time. :/ All part of being a sib? She loves her brother? but she gets the bad end of the deal because of her mother's underlining feelings towards them, the names and labels she has given them over the years. I see the junk the older brother does and the mom thinks it's funny, silly, cute, no big deal, but it's mean. I feel for his little sis. :( I'd wanna choke him too! :/

 

You can always change your mind and come up with a different consequence. I wouldn't let him off the hook completely, but I would consider altering the consequence because 30 days is a LONG TIME and I think a consequence that matches the crime would be better.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Dino

[justasque]

I would totally recommend running out to the library and getting (and reading) the book Siblings Without Rivalry. It has really helped me with the aggression between my two boys. It is a great book! It would give some very sound practical advice.

 

:iagree:

It is a paradigm-changing book, and helps you to really deal with the roots of the problem. It will help you to change the dynamic between the boys.

[Laurie4b]

I think you should have a talk with the 10 year old about doing things he KNOWS angers his younger brother. He is much more capable at 10, of understanding *why* he shouldn't deliberately scare his brother; than his brother is able to apply instinct and impulse control at 7. Brother scares him, little boy reacts.

JMO.

 

I think you should take it beyond talking to the 10 year old: they should both get the 7 year old's punishment.

 

If the 10 year old can provoke his brother and sit back and watch his brother get punished, it will be very hard to get this to stop because if there is any rivalry at all, the older one gets rewarded every time he provokes and gets to see his younger bro get in trouble. Stop the button-pusher and you stop the problem.

 

I bet the first time you say, "If you provoke him and he chokes you, you will <lose 30 days screen time>(or an appropriate punishment)" will be either the last, or the next-to-last, time that a choking incident occurs.

 

On another slightly different subject, I have found that assigning long punishments is really not effective, especially for young kids and especially when the 30 day prohibition is unrelated to the offense (ie the offense isn't triggered by TV watching, etc.) . What are you going to do if he does it again within this 30 day period? (I'm betting he does.) Does it go to 60 days, etc. Missing HP is enough . (And I do think he should do that)

 

If you've already tried punishing anyway, and it's not working, you're missing something and punishing more after you've already punished more and more again isn't going to stop it. Punishment isn't working because there is something driving this that you haven't understood yet. I'm betting you're missing who is the one with the control, like I said above, but you're missing something one way or another. I'd do the tomato staking thing if you can't figure it out rather than punishment for the 7 year old. But again, I'd try co-punishment of the 10 year old and see what happens.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Laurie4b

[AimeeM]

I can agree with that; even the part about long term punishments. I tend to make those "you'll be grounded for a month!" comments out of anger, even though they aren't really realistic.

I think you should take it beyond talking to the 10 year old: they should both get the 7 year old's punishment.

 

If the 10 year old can provoke his brother and sit back and watch his brother get punished, it will be very hard to get this to stop because if there is any rivalry at all, the older one gets rewarded every time he provokes but getting to see his younger bro get in trouble. Stop the button-pusher and you stop the problem.

 

I bet the first time you say, "If you provoke him and he chokes you, you will lose 30 days screen time" will be either the last, or the next-to-last, time that a choking incident occurs.

 

On another slightly different subject, I have found that assigning long punishments is really not effective, especially for young kids and especially when the 30 day prohibition is unrelated to the offense (ie the offense isn't triggered by TV watching, etc.) . What are you going to do if he does it again within this 30 day period? (I'm betting he does.) Does it go to 60 days, etc. Missing HP is enough . If you've already tried punishing anyway, and it's not working, you're missing something and punishing more after you've already punished more isn't going to stop it because punishment isn't working because there is something driving this that you haven't understood yet. I'm betting you're missing who is the one with the control, like I said above, but you're missing something one way or another. I'd do the tomato staking thing if you can't figure it out rather than punishment. But again, I'd try co-punishment of the 10 year old and see what happens.

[maddykate]

Sorry, double post

Edited January 9, 2012 by maddykate

[maddykate]

:iagree:With every word

 

 

I'd stick to the rules you laid out. It's tough sometimes for you and him, but your DS needs to learn to curb that impulse. Sometimes missing something that you've really wanted is the only way to get the clue.

 

From the sounds of it, that is his first response, to go right for the choking. Not good.

 

I'm not condoning your older DS's actions, and we have a similiar dynamic here with three boys....on the other hand, as I've told my children.....1. You can not control other's actions, only your own. In this case, regardless of what your DS10 did, your DS7 went right for the choke-hold, even though he'd been warned at least twice in the last 2 days. 2. The other thing I've told my children....when someone does something to wrong, but you respond in also a the wrong way...you've just turn that big bad "Light Beam of Trouble" on yourself by your action. I can't focus on correcting the first behaviour when the 2nd behaviour is SO wrong.

 

Honestly, running up to someone and yelling "Boo!" or whatever is not unreasonable...it's boys being boys, siblings being siblings....unless one has already done that, and been told not too...your first DS probably did not think that his "Boo" would result in being in a choke-hold. We do that quite often around here, and we all have a good laugh. One particular DS has made it known he does not like that, and so we don't do hide around doors/corners and scare him. It's not fun for him. But unless we all knew that in advance, we wouldn't expect such a violent reaction. Was your older DS told today, or in the past, not to do that to younger DS? My point is....if DS7 had turned around and reacted with laughter, then DS10 would not be in trouble right? So why should he be in trouble because DS7 reacted with violence (unless DS10 was already told not to do this).

 

DS7 needs to find a different way to react....that's your responsibility, to help him think of different reactions.....but he's got to stop the choke-hold. What happens when someone else runs up and tries to "Boo" him? It's going to be a much bigger deal when he tries that on someone else's child. We would no longer be hanging out with you if your DS did that to my DS.

[Myeightkiddies]

 

ETA: My number 1 is not to suggest that I wouldn't work with the older brother. Obviously, he doesn't need to be antagonizing him regularly.

 

:iagree:

 

There is no need to punish him just for being a boy, but if he is antagonizing just for a reaction, he needs to stop. Most likely he knows what the reaction will be. The choking seems be ds7s "go to" reaction. I'm sure ds10 knows that. If ds7 gets in trouble when he does it, it is wrong for ds10 to continue knowing that is what happens. But then again, maybe he isn't thinking; I don't know.

 

Perhaps you can sit privately with ds10 and ask if he would make an effort not to provoke his brother for awhile. Tell him that it will help his brother learn not to continue with the choking. It's a habitual response that takes time to correct but everyone needs to help. Most likely ds10 will agree and make an effort. If he forgets, pull him aside and remind him. If he continually forgets, punishment should happen.

 

It'll take time, but with everyone's help and being consistent, I'm sure it will happen.

[Laurie4b]

 

1) I am *really* surprised about all the posts about the older brother. Seriously, assuming there isn't some real mental, emotional, physical issue with your younger child, playfully scaring is just part of being brothers. Additionally, though you *can* control your 10yr old, you won't be controlling every other child (and later adult) that comes in contact with your son. Your son needs to learn to behave appropriately regardless of other people's behavior.

 

I really respect your parenting advice.

 

I wanted to explain why I , at least, focused on the older bro,and I'm guessing others did as well. It's because we're inferring there is a power imbalance and younger brother is dealing with it the only way he can. For me, it sounded so familiar. It was part of the dynamics of my family of origin (Sister provoked slyly; I reacted overtly; I was seen and got punished (my parents weren't the type to ask questions); sister smirked; cycle continued) and I've seen that type of thing start with my boys when they were young. It magically disappeared here when both brothers faced the same consequences. So while "playfully scaring" is pretty normal in and of itself, if it's part of a pattern of pushing buttons , which is what I inferred, then little brother is not reacting to that particular incident only, but to an accumulating sense of helplessness and ongoing pattern of being powerless. (And it's only "play" if both people are having fun) Choking makes him feel the power is more even, so he continues it, despite punishment, because feeling like he has some power is so important to him.

 

I don't think that family interactions necessarily generalize to playmates. For one thing, many siblings, because of the intensity and longevity of the relationship, do what we would call bullying if anyone else did it. We would tend to be understanding of a strong reaction to a bully , while not condoning it necessarily. However, few friends ever achieve the obnoxiousness of a sibling , and even if a friend does the same behavior (for instance yelling "Boo!" ) if there is not the pattern of powerlessness, there isn't necessarily going to be the same reaction.

[bnrmom]

Ah, it's all so complicated.

 

The 30 days came out because we've already done a week here and there, with no change. And I don't know if this helps or hurts, but screen time is a pretty big privilege around here.

 

The root of my issue with the punishment is that I really have strived to not base our "discipline" on punishment. With our older son (who believe me, I know is no angel and has pushed me to brink more times than I can count), this has worked well. He really didn't need punishments. He has always responded well to discussions about why something was appropriate or not, and our disapproval has always been punishment enough.

 

Our younger son is different. He is sweet as honey, so cute it breaks your heart, artistic and unbelievably smart. But, he doesn't necessarily care as much about our, or anyone else's, approval. We can have the same kind of conversation with him that we had with our older son, and he'll think about it and say "Well, I think I'm going to go ahead and do it anyway." It's not until it affects him directly, like a punishment, that he really sits up and pays attention. But I am uncomfortable with that being the basis of our relationship.

 

And yes, there is a bit of a power difference between the two. Ds10 is athletic, high energy, quick as lightning, and is always looking for action. Sometimes that action comes in the form of poking his younger brother and trying to get some excitement out of it. We have definitely addressed him provoking his younger brother, but they both do things to drive each other crazy, and I don't want to play judge and jury all day long about who did what first and whether it was by accident and how serious it actually was and did it warrant the response it got and and and . . . you know how it goes.

 

Anyhow, I do think this punishment is going to have to be modified, and we're going to have a family meeting about it. For no other reason than it doesn't realistically work for me! I have "computer lab" built into our homeschooling routine - 2x/week, for 30-45 minutes, one of the boys works at the computer while I am doing something one on one with the other. But it also just doesn't feel right. It's not how I want to be addressing this.

 

I'll take a look at Siblings Without Rivalry again. I looked at it many years ago when my first was only a couple of years old and it didn't speak to me, but I also had no clue about what I was in for either!

 

I would like to say that for the most part they get along great, and I think they both felt bad about they they acted today. They seemed to be extra sweet to one another all day.

[Caribbean Queen]

The root of my issue with the punishment is that I really have strived to not base our "discipline" on punishment. With our older son ...He has always responded well to discussions about why something was appropriate or not, and our disapproval has always been punishment enough.

 

Our younger son is different. ...he doesn't necessarily care as much about our, or anyone else's, approval. We can have the same kind of conversation with him that we had with our older son, and he'll think about it and say "Well, I think I'm going to go ahead and do it anyway." It's not until it affects him directly, like a punishment, that he really sits up and pays attention. But I am uncomfortable with that being the basis of our relationship.

 

...we're going to have a family meeting about it. ...But it also just doesn't feel right. It's not how I want to be addressing this.

 

 

BTDT. After a lot of struggle, I firmly added punishment to my discipline tool box. I feel comfortable with it, and can follow through with it. It's one of the best parenting moves I have made.

[JFSinIL]

Just to add - when my son with autism was younger and having anger issues, he, too, would go for the throat. While we worked on stopping that behavior, we also taught the other kids how to break a choke hold - both hands together, lunge upwards through the aggressor's arms and suddenly break your arms apart in different directions, knocking the aggressor's arms and thus his/her hands away from your throat. This works when the aggressor has come at you from the front - what most kids tend to do.

 

You can also teach how to grab the pinkie finger of the aggressor's hand and snap it - but then you'd have a broken finger to deal with. But this works when being choked from behind.

[Dino]

 

Anyhow, I do think this punishment is going to have to be modified, and we're going to have a family meeting about it. For no other reason than it doesn't realistically work for me! I have "computer lab" built into our homeschooling routine - 2x/week, for 30-45 minutes, one of the boys works at the computer while I am doing something one on one with the other. But it also just doesn't feel right. It's not how I want to be addressing this.

it is hard "IN THE MOMENT" to dish out a discipline that truly fits the crime. When a punishment is dished out when I'm upset, it turns out to be more of a hassle for ME then them. :glare:

If he is sweet as honey and yet lashes out with physically hurting someone, then I'm guessing he might need a hug and understanding instead of punishment.

I have calmed a lot of my referring jobs with just holding my children in silence and then afterwards they seem to be able to just listen to each other and work it out themselves while I'm holding them. (which is getting hard since neither really fit on my lap anymore)

I'll take a look at Siblings Without Rivalry again. I looked at it many years ago when my first was only a couple of years old and it didn't speak to me, but I also had no clue about what I was in for either!

maybe it will speak to you now? Things change with time, people change and situations change.

 

OFF TOPIC: I'm obviously a newbie jumping right in, but I haven't been able to find a place to introduce myself properly. Please forgive what appears to be bluntness. I would have otherwise slipped into the forum with a touch more grace. :D

[kiana]

1) I agree that 30 days is much too long. I actually remember, as a child, my father would withhold allowance for x time due to misbehaviour -- and I remember thinking, at some point "I've already lost my allowance for six months and I'm never going to manage to be good, so why bother?"

 

2) Teaching your 10 yr old how to break the choke is a really good idea. In the first place, it's a useful life-skill, and in the second place, if it doesn't work anymore (if his brother can break it) your 7 yr old will probably not use it.

[MelanieM]

I think it's a good idea to look at the goal of the punishment, and whether it has a chance in heck of reaching that goal.

 

On the one hand, you want the punishment to make the children aware of the inappropriate behaviour and to feel remorse. From your updates, it sounds as if that has already happened, so perhaps the 30 day thing is irrelevant -- what more would it get you? I think it is completely acceptable to explain that to children and allow for some grace. I think that would teach them a much more positive lesson than sticking to the 30 days because you said so ever would.

 

On the other hand, you want the punishment to get your kid to stop doing the unwanted behaviour in the first place. Considering it sounds like an issue of impulse control, I'm not sure that's going to work whether it's 3 days, 30 days or 300 days.

[FlyingMOm]

I'd stick to the rules you laid out. It's tough sometimes for you and him, but your DS needs to learn to curb that impulse. Sometimes missing something that you've really wanted is the only way to get the clue.

 

From the sounds of it, that is his first response, to go right for the choking. Not good.

 

I'm not condoning your older DS's actions, and we have a similiar dynamic here with three boys....on the other hand, as I've told my children.....1. You can not control other's actions, only your own. In this case, regardless of what your DS10 did, your DS7 went right for the choke-hold, even though he'd been warned at least twice in the last 2 days. 2. The other thing I've told my children....when someone does something to wrong, but you respond in also a the wrong way...you've just turn that big bad "Light Beam of Trouble" on yourself by your action. I can't focus on correcting the first behaviour when the 2nd behaviour is SO wrong.

 

Honestly, running up to someone and yelling "Boo!" or whatever is not unreasonable...it's boys being boys, siblings being siblings....unless one has already done that, and been told not too...your first DS probably did not think that his "Boo" would result in being in a choke-hold. We do that quite often around here, and we all have a good laugh. One particular DS has made it known he does not like that, and so we don't do hide around doors/corners and scare him. It's not fun for him. But unless we all knew that in advance, we wouldn't expect such a violent reaction. Was your older DS told today, or in the past, not to do that to younger DS? My point is....if DS7 had turned around and reacted with laughter, then DS10 would not be in trouble right? So why should he be in trouble because DS7 reacted with violence (unless DS10 was already told not to do this).

 

DS7 needs to find a different way to react....that's your responsibility, to help him think of different reactions.....but he's got to stop the choke-hold. What happens when someone else runs up and tries to "Boo" him? It's going to be a much bigger deal when he tries that on someone else's child. We would no longer be hanging out with you if your DS did that to my DS.

 

 

:iagree:

[ChandlerMom]

Be curious what you decided.

 

I agree 30-days is too long and too arbitrary. I'm usually a stick to your guns and follow thru type, but on rare occasions I think it's ok to go to your child and say you messed up or want the punishment to be reasonable and ask him what HE thinks a reasonable punishment would be. I would have cancelled movie night.

 

I agree you need to not just tell ds7 what NOT to do, but teach him acceptable alternatives, preferably by "using his words" -- even yelling in ds10's face, "I am SO mad at you right now!" You need ds7 to understand WHY he does it and WHAT he is feeling, recognize when it is coming on and use a sufficiently effective other way to express his angst. It needs to be something he can do himself and immediately, not "come find mom".

 

I also agree this is a sign of a serious power imbalance between the boys that needs to be addressed. I totally disagree with the notion that "boys will be boys" and you are helpless to prevent shoving and punching arms. IMO it's BAD socialization since in the adult world those are called ASSAULT and can land you in jail. It's clear that your boys cannot currently HANDLE physical communication with each other. The fact that your older ds is bigger and less delicate than your younger ds only adds to the imbalance, so you need to stop it.

 

I teach our kids that they are responsible for their actions and reactions, but I also discuss a lot with them how their behavior contributes to a situation and ask them how their teasing/whatever makes their sibling FEEL. Do they WANT their sibling to feel that way? I make them sit there and look their teary pathetic sibling in the eye and see what they did to them -- ask them to look at the upset child and verbalize what they see and who that person is feeling. I find this encourages empathy and a natural consequence.

 

I also use the "you broke it, you fix it" approach -- if you upset your sibling, go make it better. This doesn't mean I'm "staying out of it", in fact I'm probably right there if it is serious, playing facilitator. But it means after acknowledging how their sib feels, asking what they might do to make them feel better?

 

Of course, there's also teaching the younger child to have a thicker skin. But right now, it sounds like he feels powerless and victimized in his own home. You need to stop that as well as the choking. If that means your boys cannot be together unsupervised until they learn how to "play nice" then that's what you have to do. And by supervise, I mean being on top of everything they say and do.

 

Good luck!

[Murphy101]

I do not think 30 days is too long, however I change my opinion because you state that you have tried this punishment numerous times before to various degrees and it wasn't effective.

 

if you know it isn't effective, then the issue of doing it longer seems rather moot.

[Bootsie]

We had similar dynamics with our kids when they were that age, although oldest was a daughter. Yes, she knew how to do things to push his buttons. In our household, letting her watch a movie that the family had been waiting to watch together while ds could not would escalate things, not make them better. I also try not to use something that I think will be a good family experience as a punishment (but I know that isn't always possible.)

 

With my ds it is easy, too, to get into long punishments when he doesn't respond to short punishments, but that doesn't help. Thirty days is an eternity to a 7-year old. One way we handle this in our home is that you have to regain a privelege that is lost rather than being punished for "x" amount of time. For example, "you must go five days without physically hurting your brother before you gain screen priveleges."

[Laurie4b]

 

 

 

And yes, there is a bit of a power difference between the two. Ds10 is athletic, high energy, quick as lightning, and is always looking for action. Sometimes that action comes in the form of poking his younger brother and trying to get some excitement out of it. We have definitely addressed him provoking his younger brother, but they both do things to drive each other crazy, and I don't want to play judge and jury all day long about who did what first and whether it was by accident and how serious it actually was and did it warrant the response it got and and and . . . you know how it goes.

 

.

 

Not having to play judge and jury is the beauty of giving both the same consequence. They both participated, they both face the music. It doesn't matter really who did what first to whom, etc. The incentive is there not to provoke and not to respond to provocation. This is actually the way it works in prosecution of some crimes. Everyone can be charged with the same crime even if they had a much smaller role to play than someone else in the group.

 

Bundling it together actually draws the kids together. They now have the same goal and they are working against themselves every time they annoy the sibling; they are working in their own best interest every time they support the sibling.

 

As for the screen time, if a week off didn't work, more time won't help. Either he doesn't care as much about screen time as he does about whatever is driving him to choke, or he does not have the self-control in the moment to avoid the choking even if he cares about the screen time. (think of dieters. They may really, really want to lose weight, but faced with the brownie in front of them, the short-term gain outweighs the long term consequences.) So teaching him self-control, having him practice it, etc. may turn out to be a lot more helpful than either talking to or punishment (both only work if the child has self-control in the heat of the moment.) You will need to give him specific things to do in place of the choking. You could take a page from cognitive behavioral therapy with the practice.

[clarkacademy]

You should stick to your guns. It would be very difficult for me to make my kid miss the much anticipated final Harry Potter movie, but if you told him the consequences and he did it anyway, you have to keep your word. :grouphug:

 

ETA: I agree that you need to have a talk with the older one about antagonizing the younger one, too. We have a similar dynamic with our boys.

 

:iagree:

[Dino]

I do not think 30 days is too long, however I change my opinion because you state that you have tried this punishment numerous times before to various degrees and it wasn't effective.

 

if you know it isn't effective, then the issue of doing it longer seems rather moot.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm curious what the final out come was?

[3peasinWa]

not using punishment doesn't mean all you do is "talk to him" ...it's not one or the other. I would ask you how's the punishment working out for you? He's still doing it. Give him some other tools to use instead of choking. Role play with him. Be actively teaching him-you may need to supervise him closely for a while & that may mean stuff around the house might not get done. Also, I don't know what other issues there may be with him, but he may need to be evaluated by a psych.

It's one thing when a consequence fits the crime -meaning that they're directly related to the action (having a child sit out if they push or hit)...but to choose some arbitrary punishment isn't helping him figure out what to do instead.