s/o s/o Feminism

[jenangelcat]

I've wanted to ask this for a while but have been hesitant due to the subtle women-hating comments I see frequently here. Feminism seems to be the themeof the moment so here's my question.

 

When I hear women say they aren't feminists I wonder how that is even possible. Feminism is about equal rights and opportunities for women. That's it. It's not about bra burning (myth) or man-hating or any other extremists views that most people associate with some feminist they heard about once. Equal rights and opportunities.

 

So how can a woman not be a feminist? Do women not deserve equal rights and opportunities? Really?

 

Explain.

[*********]

I've wanted to ask this for a while but have been hesitant due to the subtle women-hating comments I see frequently here. Feminism seems to be the themeof the moment so here's my question.

 

When I hear women say they aren't feminists I wonder how that is even possible. Feminism is about equal rights and opportunities for women. That's it. It's not about bra burning (myth) or man-hating or any other extremists views that most people associate with some feminist they heard about once. Equal rights and opportunities.

 

So how can a woman not be a feminist? Do women not deserve equal rights and opportunities? Really?

 

Explain.

 

I'm gonna answer for ME.

 

I don't identify myself as a feminist. Not because I don't believe that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. But because 'feminist', at least in my little world, means someone who believes in/supports more than just equal rights and opportunities. In *my* world, identifying as a feminist means you support things I don't support, plain and simple.

 

And as for what I bolded in your quote; I've NEVER seen that here. Interesting how differently we all see things.

[regentrude]

So how can a woman not be a feminist? Do women not deserve equal rights and opportunities? Really?

 

I guess there are women who accept the notion that men are superior and submit to their will and their decisions JUST because they are men (not because they have the better argument or deeper insight into a specific issue).

I would be hard pressed to consider these women feminist by any stretch of the definition.

 

Btw, I consider myself a feminist in the sense that I expect equal opportunities and rights for women and men - which does not mean that women have to do everything the same way men do.

[AimeeM]

I'm going to keep it short, sweet, and simple; I didn't ask for those rights and I resent being made to feel that I should be grateful for something I didn't personally ask for.

In my much younger days, I had the opportunity to meet a couple of (much) older women who grew up as children/teens in the days before women could vote. They spoke fondly of their fathers, their mothers, their childhoods. They felt that there was nothing wrong with the way they grew up and that the big change was largely unnecessary. I can't speak for that, as I am an 80's child. Lol.

I'm not going to touch on the "you don't think women should have equal rights" question. I'm not going to start (or help along) an argument with women (and some men) on this board who I sincerely like and respect, over something with an answer that means nothing because, really, it is what it is and it doesn't MATTER what I think about it. Women have these rights - why haggle about the feelings behind it :lol:

[laundrycrisis]

When I hear women say they aren't feminists I wonder how that is even possible. Feminism is about equal rights and opportunities for women.

 

Not everyone believes this is important.

 

I guess there are women who accept the notion that men are superior and submit to their will and their decisions JUST because they are men (not because they have the better argument or deeper insight into a specific issue).

I would be hard pressed to consider these women feminist by any stretch of the definition.

 

:iagree:I don't mean that I agree with the belief, but that there are women here who believe this is right. Men should be deferred to, in particular the man they are married to....just because he is the one with the boy parts. It seems to be part of their religious beliefs. I actually left a religious persuasion over this exact thing. I decided I was more aligned to feminism and discarded the religion. I no longer believe in a deity with a gender.

Edited January 5, 2012 by laundrycrisis

[pdalley]

I've wanted to ask this for a while but have been hesitant due to the subtle women-hating comments I see frequently here. Feminism seems to be the themeof the moment so here's my question.

 

When I hear women say they aren't feminists I wonder how that is even possible. Feminism is about equal rights and opportunities for women. That's it. It's not about bra burning (myth) or man-hating or any other extremists views that most people associate with some feminist they heard about once. Equal rights and opportunities.

 

So how can a woman not be a feminist? Do women not deserve equal rights and opportunities? Really?

 

Explain.

 

Bra burning was not a myth. My mother actually did it. She was a rabid feminist. Man hating feminist. I was raised soley by her. I can't say her extreme views left me with a positive view of the more rabid aspects of the movement.

 

I resent that I have to follow some 'checklist' to be considered a feminist so I don't self identify as one. I was under the illusion that feminist meant every woman got to choose for herself what path she wanted to walk and would be supported. That does not happen IRL. So no, I don't self identify as one. My husband considers me an equal in our marriage. We make decisions together. If we can't come to a consensus - very rare - then I do generally let him make the final decision. But that is due to the fact that he is very logical and methodical and I tend to be impulsive. Not because he is male.

[usetoschool]

I think there is a difference, whether there should be or not, between Feminist - bra burning, 60's, Gloria Steinham etc, and feminist as you described it. To most people I think the word brings up the first definition. For me men and women are 100% of equal value in the sight of God, just different natures and roles to play. The only part of capital F feminist I like, or admire, or resonate with, whatever, is the idea that women should be free to fulfill that role or nature however they see fit for their own life. The militancy kind of turns me off on the other hand.

[Cammie]

I've wanted to ask this for a while but have been hesitant due to the subtle women-hating comments I see frequently here. Feminism seems to be the themeof the moment so here's my question.

 

When I hear women say they aren't feminists I wonder how that is even possible. Feminism is about equal rights and opportunities for women. That's it. It's not about bra burning (myth) or man-hating or any other extremists views that most people associate with some feminist they heard about once. Equal rights and opportunities.

 

So how can a woman not be a feminist? Do women not deserve equal rights and opportunities? Really?

 

Explain.

 

Actually thought of posting this EXACT same question...waiting to see the answers!

[astrid]

I suppose they've been brought up to believe, from a very early age, that those who possess a penis are superior, and are unable (or unwilling) to wrap their heads around the notion that humans are equal, regardless of their respective plumbing.

 

I cannot wrap my head aroud that, but just taking a stab in the dark.

 

astrid

[Pamela H in Texas]

I think perception makes a big difference. My guess is that the phrase (frequent woman-hating comments) was exaggerating, but also that what some consider woman-hating would differ from what others would consider to be such.

 

As for my own brief thoughts.....Like Bethany, I simply do not support everything it seems to mean to be a feminist. Additionally, I choose not to *use* certain rights and opportunities. I think that should be my right.

Edited January 5, 2012 by 2J5M9K

[Alte Veste Academy]

When I hear women say they aren't feminists I wonder how that is even possible. Feminism is about equal rights and opportunities for women. That's it. It's not about bra burning (myth) or man-hating or any other extremists views that most people associate with some feminist they heard about once. Equal rights and opportunities.

 

So how can a woman not be a feminist? Do women not deserve equal rights and opportunities? Really?

 

Explain.

 

The definition of feminism is "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes." I think the economic stuff can appear quite superficial and seem easy and apparent enough, as your definition of "equal rights and opportunities" implies it ought to be. In some areas, feminism is a no-brainer, and quite simple to define as fair to women--equal pay and benefits, treatment by the law, voting, etc. These are the easy issues. However, people define political and (especially) social equality quite differently.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[Mrs Mungo]

I guess there are women who accept the notion that men are superior and submit to their will and their decisions JUST because they are men (not because they have the better argument or deeper insight into a specific issue).

I would be hard pressed to consider these women feminist by any stretch of the definition.

 

Btw, I consider myself a feminist in the sense that I expect equal opportunities and rights for women and men - which does not mean that women have to do everything the same way men do.

 

I pretty much agree with this.

[laundrycrisis]

The militants were angry. IMO they had every right to be angry. At that time, they usually could not have a bank account without their husband or father cosigning on it. Girls had to give up their spots in physics or chemistry classes in high school if the class was full and there was a boy who wanted the spot, because the boys would "eventually have to support a family" and therefore had more rights to those classes. Things have changed slowly. When I was in engineering school, 20 years ago, I was still dealing with professors who accused the female engineering students of only being in engineering "to meet a good husband" and a TA who put a male student into a lab team of three female students so he could "help the girls". The progress we take for granted now is recent. Every "militant" part of feminism has started the ball rolling for what eventually came to be accepted as mainstream, and then the "militants" who got it started are criticized for their in-your-face boldness. But that is truly what it took to get it done.

[Parrothead]

I'm an ex-cop, and deep down in my bones I'll always be a firefighter. So I get the whole equal pay for equal work and I enjoy being able to vote. I do not believe one gender is superior to the other just because of gender. That is too easily changed now anyway.

 

If women's rights hadn't been fought for and won, today a woman who is dissatisfied in being a woman because of it could easily become a man and have all the rights and privileges that entails. Forty years ago that was unheard of, but today - no big.

 

So, yes. Equal rights for all regardless of race, religion, gender, etc. I support that 100%.

 

Man bashing, militant feminism and the like are just wrong. I don't get the lack of "proper" manners that came along with the feminist movement. I see the loss of chivalry to be a bad thing.

[Jennifer3141]

:iagree:I don't mean that I agree with the belief, but that there are women here who believe this is right. Men should be deferred to, in particular the man they are married to....just because he is the one with the boy parts. It seems to be part of their religious beliefs. I actually left a religious persuasion over this exact thing. I decided I was more aligned to feminism and discarded the religion. I no longer believe in a deity with a gender.

 

 

There are women here who believe that and I forget about them because I usually have them blocked after a certain time. I think it is harmful to women everywhere to even hear that other women happily accept subjugation.

 

So don't worry, OP. There are a lot of feminists and humanists here. You're not alone. :grouphug::grouphug:

[astrid]

Yes. This. Exactly. Thank you for stating it so well.

 

astrid

[Lady Florida.]

The militants were angry. IMO they had every right to be angry. At that time, they usually could not have a bank account without their husband or father cosigning on it. <snip> The progress we take for granted now is recent. Every "militant" part of feminism has started the ball rolling for what eventually came to be accepted as mainstream, and then the "militants" who got it started are criticized for their in-your-face boldness. But that is truly what it took to get it done.

 

The bolded was an issue as late as the 1970's. My mother and stepfather divorced in 1973. My mother was unable to get a checking account, though the bank was willing to give her a savings account. My grandfather had to be on the account with her. She also needed him to cosign for a car loan, even though she was financially capable of making the payments. Just because she was a woman. No. Other. Reason.

 

She wanted to get life insurance. An insurance salesman sat at our kitchen table and laughed at her. Laughed. Then he told her "If you want life insurance, get a husband. A husband is life insurance." My mother, the feminist, kicked him out.

 

Many young women today take things that they are able to do for granted, and truly don't get what it was like just 30 or 40 years ago.

[jenangelcat]

Okay, so those saying that they don't identify as feminists because some feminists are very militant, do you hesitate to identify with your religion because some members are extremists?

 

I'm starting to think feminism needs to be re-branded.

[Alte Veste Academy]

So, yes. Equal rights for all regardless of race, religion, gender, etc. I support that 100%.

 

Man bashing, militant feminism and the like are just wrong. I don't get the lack of "proper" manners that came along with the feminist movement. I see the loss of chivalry to be a bad thing.

 

This is my feeling as well and it's what I assumed the OP was talking about. After rereading the OP though, I think she's talking about those who take a view from the opposite direction?

[Guest]

I'm gonna answer for ME.

 

I don't identify myself as a feminist. Not because I don't believe that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. But because 'feminist', at least in my little world, means someone who believes in/supports more than just equal rights and opportunities. In *my* world, identifying as a feminist means you support things I don't support, plain and simple.

 

And as for what I bolded in your quote; I've NEVER seen that here. Interesting how differently we all see things.

 

:iagree: Well said.

[AimeeM]

:lurk5:

[Tarreymere]

I lived a life that any feminist would be proud of, serving on Active Duty in the Army repairing electronic warfare equipment in a shop in the motorpool, and later being the wage-earning spouse of a stay-at-home dad. My disenchantment with feminism as defined by some feminists began when I made the choice to be the parent who remained at home. Apparently this is the ONLY choice a feminist cannot support, according to those feminists who felt compelled to point it out to me.

 

I had been under the apparently mistaken impression that feminism meant that we were all equal and could make our own choices about lifestyle. I guess I was wrong. DH could wear the apron and that was cool, but I could not.

 

So I no longer identify myself as a feminist. I guess I need a label for what I believe now. I believe that men and women are both intelligent and both designed by a Creator to have complementary roles in child-rearing that do not lessen the intrinsic value or worth of either gender. I believe that people of either gender have responsibility for their actions and are accountable for their choices. I believe that since it takes two adults to create a child that raising that child should ideally involve two adults, because raising a child is an intense and overwhelming responsibility and really challenging for one adult to do on his or her own. I believe that any family is enhanced when a parent chooses to stay at home and focus his or her energies and talents on the home and family. Single parents and families with two fulltime working parents mean that there is sacrifice and hardship involved in maintaining that home and a family, and these families deserve recognition and respect for their efforts.

 

Hmm....maybe I am a personist? A familist? I'll work on a label :tongue_smilie:

[Alte Veste Academy]

I'm starting to think feminism needs to be re-branded.

 

:iagree::lol:

 

I've thought this for a long time. I won't call myself a feminist because I'm not a stereotypical feminist, which is what I believe most people think of when the term is used.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Is it not true that what separates the sexes, principally, is a penis?

 

Principally? No. :confused:

[pdalley]

Okay, so those saying that they don't identify as feminists because some feminists are very militant, do you hesitate to identify with your religion because some members are extremists?

 

I'm starting to think feminism needs to be re-branded.

 

Sometimes.

 

I am a Christian. I know this in my heart. Still, I have huge trouble with organized religion due to some of the more extreme people who identify as Christians. But I cringe at the 'rules'. It's the same thing really. I don't do well being put in a box. To be a 'feminist' you have to - based on what I read and lived with - be pro choice (no), think men are all evil (again, no), women can do ANYTHING as well as men (depends on the anything) just to name a few.

 

To be a 'christian' - based on things that current crop up IRL here - you have to believe in a literal 7 day creation, men are the absolute head of the household, you have to spank your kids, if you name it and claim it will happen (healing, money, etc)... Again, no.

 

But I was raised with a rabid feminist. This colors my view. I didn't need a bra burner (oh yes she did) I needed a mother because she was the only parent I had. My brother needed a mother who didn't think he was horribly flawed from birth because he was male.

[astrid]

Okay...physically? When a baby is born (or an ultrasound performed) and gender is assigned, on what is that based? The physical attribute of a penis, no? From that moment on, that person is thought of as male until or unless he undergoes gender reassignment surgery.

 

WHICH is a whole 'nother can of worms! :D

 

astrid

[jenangelcat]

 

I had been under the apparently mistaken impression that feminism meant that we were all equal and could make our own choices about lifestyle. I guess I was wrong. DH could wear the apron and that was cool, but I could not.

 

 

That is what feminism means. Unfortunately, the vocal minority bashes sahm's and ruins it for the rest of us. I'm a sahm btw with no plans to ever return to work. This is why more (non-extremist) people need to vocally identify as feminist. Either that or we need to come up with a new less baggage heavy term.

[dangermom]

Okay, so those saying that they don't identify as feminists because some feminists are very militant, do you hesitate to identify with your religion because some members are extremists?

 

I'm starting to think feminism needs to be re-branded.

 

I think that's really the problem; an awful lot of people who hold feminist opinions won't use the word because it carries a connotation of extremism. IMO if more people ignored that and used the word anyway, that would improve a lot. So I call myself a feminist because a) I am one and b) extremists don't get to take things over.

 

To me it's a bit like how some people feel about the flag. Some folks don't like to fly the flag because they hold a stereotype in their minds that only jingoistic nationalists do that. Well, that will only become true if everyone else stops flying the flag, and I happen to like flags, so I fly it. Jingoistic nationalists are not allowed to define my flag usage for me, and extremist feminists are not allowed to define my word usage for me. :tongue_smilie:

[simka2]

I'm gonna answer for ME.

 

I don't identify myself as a feminist. Not because I don't believe that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. But because 'feminist', at least in my little world, means someone who believes in/supports more than just equal rights and opportunities. In *my* world, identifying as a feminist means you support things I don't support, plain and simple.

 

And as for what I bolded in your quote; I've NEVER seen that here. Interesting how differently we all see things.

I think I have the mirror image of your post. I would identify as a feminist. I just refuse to let it mean more than equal rights and opportunities. ;)

 

It is somewhat like being identified as a Christian. There are many things people associate with being Christian, that I do not buy in to, but I still identify as one. :D

 

I as to the bolded, I have seen it, so your right it is very interesting. ;)

[NicAnn]

I am not a feminist, and I don't support feminists. I suppose, yes, by the dictionary definition I do, but I've never met a woman who identifies as a feminist and follows that definition.

[astrid]

I think that's really the problem; an awful lot of people who hold feminist opinions won't use the word because it carries a connotation of extremism. IMO if more people ignored that and used the word anyway, that would improve a lot. So I call myself a feminist because a) I am one and b) extremists don't get to take things over.

 

To me it's a bit like how some people feel about the flag. Some folks don't like to fly the flag because they hold a stereotype in their minds that only jingoistic nationalists do that. Well, that will only become true if everyone else stops flying the flag, and I happen to like flags, so I fly it. Jingoistic nationalists are not allowed to define my flag usage for me, and extremist feminists are not allowed to define my word usage for me. :tongue_smilie:

 

Yes, I completely agree.

 

astrid

[My3Boys]

I lived a life that any feminist would be proud of, serving on Active Duty in the Army repairing electronic warfare equipment in a shop in the motorpool, and later being the wage-earning spouse of a stay-at-home dad. My disenchantment with feminism as defined by some feminists began when I made the choice to be the parent who remained at home. Apparently this is the ONLY choice a feminist cannot support, according to those feminists who felt compelled to point it out to me.

 

I had been under the apparently mistaken impression that feminism meant that we were all equal and could make our own choices about lifestyle. I guess I was wrong. DH could wear the apron and that was cool, but I could not.

 

So I no longer identify myself as a feminist. I guess I need a label for what I believe now. I believe that men and women are both intelligent and both designed by a Creator to have complementary roles in child-rearing that do not lessen the intrinsic value or worth of either gender. I believe that people of either gender have responsibility for their actions and are accountable for their choices. I believe that since it takes two adults to create a child that raising that child should ideally involve two adults, because raising a child is an intense and overwhelming responsibility and really challenging for one adult to do on his or her own. I believe that any family is enhanced when a parent chooses to stay at home and focus his or her energies and talents on the home and family. Single parents and families with two fulltime working parents mean that there is sacrifice and hardship involved in maintaining that home and a family, and these families deserve recognition and respect for their efforts.

 

Hmm....maybe I am a personist? A familist? I'll work on a label :tongue_smilie:

 

:iagree: and well said! I had 2 sils that looked down on me because I chose to be a SAHM over having a career. They still do.

 

I cannot agree with the feminist view that the only difference between men and women is their reproductive organs. While I believe that we are all of equal value, I also believe that men and women are just made differently, not just physically but emotionally and psychologically as well. None of those differences make us superior or inferior, however.

 

I also absolutely cannot get on board with the feminist stance on abortion. I believe it is self-centered and demeans us as women.

[annandatje]

The militants were angry. IMO they had every right to be angry. At that time, they usually could not have a bank account without their husband or father cosigning on it. Girls had to give up their spots in physics or chemistry classes in high school if the class was full and there was a boy who wanted the spot, because the boys would "eventually have to support a family" and therefore had more rights to those classes. Things have changed slowly. When I was in engineering school, 20 years ago, I was still dealing with professors who accused the female engineering students of only being in engineering "to meet a good husband" and a TA who put a male student into a lab team of three female students so he could "help the girls". The progress we take for granted now is recent. Every "militant" part of feminism has started the ball rolling for what eventually came to be accepted as mainstream, and then the "militants" who got it started are criticized for their in-your-face boldness. But that is truly what it took to get it done.

 

This seems to be pattern for curing of any significant social ill like slavery, apartheid, voting rights, etc. The people who start the process are mocked and viewed as radical troublemakers. As a progressive idea slowly wins hearts and mind of populace, no one in their right mind wants to go back to way things were.

[MrsBasil]

 

I'm starting to think feminism needs to be re-branded.

 

 

Perhaps it does.

 

However, I've been told by many non extremist feminists(not man hating, not SAHM bashers etc.) that I am not feminist because I don't support this cause or that cause. After being told that Christian women can't be feminists or people who don't agree with X candidate or Y cause so many times I've simply stopped identifying myself as such.

 

Further certain organizations that attempt to speak for all women don't speak for me and they identify as feminist.

 

OTOH, I've always loved this essay. http://tomatonation.com/culture-and-criticism/yes-you-are/

[Daisy]

I refuse to identify with the word feminist because of what the movement stands for NOW.

 

I imagine people feel the same way about whatever political party they affiliate with. They identify or don't identify with it because of its CURRENT meaning and goals and not because of what it did or did not do in the past.

[T'smom]

I am a feminist. Of COURSE I am. I'm shocked that anyone is not. However, there is that vocal minority that does more harm than good for the cause. I am adamantly pro-life, because I think that EVERYONE has rights, especially the little one who didn't ask to be conceived. I am a feminist, but I have chosen to stay at home and be financially dependent on my husband. But I get to choose that because women get to choose. I can even, if I want, choose to submit to my husband.

I think the radical stuff was needed in the beginning and I am SO glad it happened. But I am not burning my bra anytime soon. In fact, I sleep in my bra!

[astrid]

In my mind, it's difficult to separate the two.

I drive. I vote. I hold an elected office in my town. I have a credit card in my name. I could go out this afternoon and get a car loan. I have a life insurance policy. I played varsity high school sports in the '80's, and my daughter can play can do the same. She can go to college and major in chemistry if she chooses.

 

I am thankful for those who voices who rocked the boat. Let's not forget that not all feminists were from the same era. Countless thousands were marching for the right to vote and hold office, then going home, putting on an apron and making dinner for their husbands.

 

Just because "feminist" has been made into a dirty word, largely by the media, doesn't mean that the ideals are not valid. They dont' get to win. Sadly, the term "Muslim" has been made into a dirty word because of the deeds of a few. It doesn't mean that those who identify themselves as Muslim should think up another adjective because of the stigma attached to the word.

 

astrid

[astrid]

I am a feminist. Of COURSE I am. I'm shocked that anyone is not. However' date=' there is that vocal minority that does more harm than good for the cause. I am adamantly pro-life, because I think that EVERYONE has rights, especially the little one who didn't ask to be conceived. I am a feminist, but I have chosen to stay at home and be financially dependent on my husband. But I get to choose that because women get to choose. I can even, if I want, choose to submit to my husband.

[b']I think the radical stuff was needed in the beginning and I am SO glad it happened. But I am not burning my bra anytime soon[/b]. In fact, I sleep in my bra!

 

But that WASN"T the beginning. You can vote for a pro-life candidate if you so choose because of the feminists of yesteryear.

 

astrid

[Dustybug]

I think there is a difference, whether there should be or not, between Feminist - bra burning, 60's, Gloria Steinham etc, and feminist as you described it. To most people I think the word brings up the first definition. For me men and women are 100% of equal value in the sight of God, just different natures and roles to play. The only part of capital F feminist I like, or admire, or resonate with, whatever, is the idea that women should be free to fulfill that role or nature however they see fit for their own life. The militancy kind of turns me off on the other hand.

 

 

:iagree::iagree:Especially with the part I bolded. I believe men and women are equal in front of God, just with different roles in the world and inside families. And FWIW, I don't "subjugate" myself to my husband because his genitalia is different than mine. I willingly submit myself to him as an act of love for him and for God and of obedience to the Bible which I use as the guide to my entire life. I really detest that so many people have the skewed view that this means that I am some doormat whimpering, "yes, sir" to my DH anytime he barks a command at me. But, I also understand that it is difficult to really grasp how this works in a loving, respectful relationship if you do not share the same faith/religious views that I have as well.

[Cammie]

Yup, feminist here. I am a lawyer and a SAHM. I went to law school...an institution pretty closed to women through the 1970s. I believe in equal work for equal pay. I believe in respect for decisions people make for themselves. I believe men and women are different. I believe that differences don't justify inequality. I believe the government shouldn't control women's bodies. I believe that women and men can be the best they can be if they are given opportunities, challenges and support. I believe each couple has to figure out the "roles" for themselves. I believe that my daughter and my son should have the same opportunities, benefits and chances to be President, an engineer, a ballet dancer, whatever. I believe raising little boys is different than raising little girls. I believe they both can be raised to be loving, respectful, successful, fulfilled people.

[astrid]

Well said. I agree.

 

astrid

[jenangelcat]

Yup, feminist here. I am a lawyer and a SAHM. I went to law school...an institution pretty closed to women through the 1970s. I believe in equal work for equal pay. I believe in respect for decisions people make for themselves. I believe men and women are different. I believe that differences don't justify inequality. I believe the government shouldn't control women's bodies. I believe that women and men can be the best they can be if they are given opportunities, challenges and support. I believe each couple has to figure out the "roles" for themselves. I believe that my daughter and my son should have the same opportunities, benefits and chances to be President, an engineer, a ballet dancer, whatever. I believe raising little boys is different than raising little girls. I believe they both can be raised to be loving, respectful, successful, fulfilled people.

 

:iagree: All that. Although there isn't a set feminist checklist. The majority of them that I've talked to believe these things as well.

[msk]

I think that's really the problem; an awful lot of people who hold feminist opinions won't use the word because it carries a connotation of extremism. IMO if more people ignored that and used the word anyway, that would improve a lot. So I call myself a feminist because a) I am one and b) extremists don't get to take things over.

 

 

:iagree:

For what it's worth, I do see comments here fairly regularly with a highly judgmental view of women (never men) who CHOOSE to work for reasons of personal happiness and satisfaction rather than dire and painfully obvious economic necessity. These women are often called selfish and accused of loving their children less than sahms do. This may be the type of "woman-hating" comment the OP was talking about. (The "modesty" discussions that flare up every few months may be another one.)

 

To me, feminism means equal rights and opportunities, regardless of how a woman chooses to use those opportunities. Here's where my interpretation of "equal rights" seems to vary from some people on this board, though. I think part of that equality is that women should not have to choose between working and having a family any more than men do. Women and men should BOTH get to choose the life path most fulfilling to them, whether that's being a stay-at-home parent or working outside the home, and we ought to respect both choices equally.

 

I don't buy the argument that a full time stay-at-home mom is ALWAYS what's "best" for the children, although it may often work out that way. There are many examples throughout history and worldwide of groups of relatives and other loving, responsible adults contributing to childcare; I don't believe that our modern American ideal of the nuclear family as a stand-alone, completely independent unit is the only right and proper way to raise a child. To me, the idea that a "good, unselfish" woman must have either a family OR a career but not both is the very antithesis of feminism, and I suspect that is where a lot of the anti-feminism on this board is coming from.

Edited January 5, 2012 by msk

[3littlekeets]

I find this discussion interesting. I am a feminist. My husband is a feminist. We are raising our children as feminists. We are teaching them equality of men, women, and those who are transgendered.

 

We do not teach man-hating, nor do we teach racism (which was a considered an in early feminism) -- it was a white middle class issue and black women in the US rebelled with WOMANISM or similarly, black feminism.

 

BUT, I also recognize that the term has many meanings for people...much like Christianity. Some people say Catholics are not Christian:lol:; some say Mormons aren't. Well, it depends on your definition.

 

I do find it a bit sad that we don't have a less controversial term that identifies people who see the equality of men and women as a fundamental human right with no natural or scriptural reason to be seen as lesser or subservient. I do see people post here (who believe by scripture in obeying their husbands, etc.) that would not fit under my definition. Differences in physical biology or personal choices are different (such as the choice to stay at home v. work). BTW, right now, my husband is a stay at home dad, by choice.

Edited January 5, 2012 by 3littlekeets

[annandatje]

Yup, feminist here. I am a lawyer and a SAHM. I went to law school...an institution pretty closed to women through the 1970s. I believe in equal work for equal pay. I believe in respect for decisions people make for themselves. I believe men and women are different. I believe that differences don't justify inequality. I believe the government shouldn't control women's bodies. I believe that women and men can be the best they can be if they are given opportunities, challenges and support. I believe each couple has to figure out the "roles" for themselves. I believe that my daughter and my son should have the same opportunities, benefits and chances to be President, an engineer, a ballet dancer, whatever. I believe raising little boys is different than raising little girls. I believe they both can be raised to be loving, respectful, successful, fulfilled people.

 

:iagree: I've long considered feminism as a subset of human rights that is focused on the traditional underdogs, women and children, who are less likely than males to wield physical and financial power.

 

On a personal level, I am glad that I was able to step in as sole breadwinner during a tough time for our family, and I am glad that my partner did not feel at all demeaned by being the stay at home parent for awhile.

 

In my first professional position, a partner of international firm made remark that women were joining profession for a "good ride until they started having babies."

[Nakia]

For what it's worth, I do see comments here fairly regularly with a highly judgmental view of women (never men) who CHOOSE to work for reasons of personal happiness and satisfaction rather than dire and painfully obvious economic necessity. These women are often called selfish and accused of loving their children less than sahms do. This may be the type of "woman-hating" comment the OP was talking about. (The "modesty" discussions that flare up every few months may be another one.)

 

 

 

Really? I am a working mother, and I've NEVER felt judged for that here.

[annandatje]

Really? I am a working mother, and I've NEVER felt judged for that here.

 

While I do not take the comments personally, I have on numerous occasions read posts highly critical of working mothers.

 

The built in assumption usually was that they were working to indulge in luxuries when they could devote themselves to their families if they were willing to lead a simpler life.

 

The choice of whether to work should be a woman's own choice assuming that the family already has adequate financial resources. It is irrelevant whether she works for luxury, necessity, or personal fulfillment.

[T'smom]

But that WASN"T the beginning. You can vote for a pro-life candidate if you so choose because of the feminists of yesteryear.

 

astrid

 

Oh, ACK! Please don't think that I vote pro-life based solely on pro-life. In fact, I rarely vote for a pro-life candidate. There are many, many issues to consider and I don't believe that putting a pro-life candidate in office will do any good. (I'm sorry- I know I'm skating close to the no-politics line, but I had to clear that up.)

I MEANT that extremism has been necessary in the past, but it's not now.

[butterflymommy]

I've wanted to ask this for a while but have been hesitant due to the subtle women-hating comments I see frequently here. Feminism seems to be the themeof the moment so here's my question.

 

When I hear women say they aren't feminists I wonder how that is even possible. Feminism is about equal rights and opportunities for women. That's it. It's not about bra burning (myth) or man-hating or any other extremists views that most people associate with some feminist they heard about once. Equal rights and opportunities.

 

So how can a woman not be a feminist? Do women not deserve equal rights and opportunities? Really?

 

Explain.

 

That may be your take on feminism, but it's not what was taught to me as feminism both directly and indirectly in the 80s, 90s. I went to a very feminist college, even took a few women's studies classes there. What was taught as feminism was indeed man hating, bra burning, sexual liberation (= promiscuity) anti-maternalism, anti marriage, etc.. That's not for me... at all. Women who had children at the cost of career were looked down on. Women who stayed home with their children were a disgrace. Quite frankly I've heard more hateful comments about women from feminists than I've ever heard from men, with the exception of the taliban.

[AdventureMoms]

I'm a feminist. Most of the people I know are, as well. Feminism is the belief that men and women are equal. The other stuff is fluff. You can be a pro-life, submissive wife, SAHM conservative christian and also be a feminist... One does not have to use every right that one is entitled to. That's the point of choice. I have a hard time understanding how women, especially, can choose to not support equal rights for women, whether or not they personally wish to work, or hold a bank account, or what-have-you.

 

FWIW, other things about me (which I do not see as relevant to feminism):

I'm a SAHM, I'm an athiest, I'm a lesbian, I have a great relationship with my father, grandfathers and uncles, I'm pro-choice, I like men, and I have no plans to return to a career outside the home