Lovedtodeath Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 (edited) S/O of JenniferB's thread. I would like to see what you all have to say. In order to survive judgment day, Noah had to get on to the Ark. What is the equivalent to survive the future judgment day? Edited December 19, 2011 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Well, I'm LDS, and for those in my church, it's emergency preparedness, food storage and other practical things of that nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Can you elaborate a little? I didn't read the other thread so I'm not really sure what you're asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Well, I'm LDS, and for those in my church, it's emergency preparedness, food storage and other practical things of that nature. I am not LDS, and I completely agree. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Acceptance of the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. The original ark was a historical necessity but was also a foreshadowing of the spiritual necessity and solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Oh, ok. I see my answer doesn't actually apply. I was thinking more of actual survival here on earth. For me, the answer is personal righteousness and faith. Although I'm keeping my food storage for all that armageddon stuff. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Acceptance of the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. The original ark was a historical necessity but was also a foreshadowing of the spiritual necessity and solution. What she said. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I understand that Noah didn't really prepare on his own, but instead was doing something that God told him to do. So I would assume that God will tell his chosen (for lack of a better word) people to do for them to survive too. But I also thought the final judgment day is supposed to mean the saved souls (meaning people all over the earth) will be taken to heaven immediately while the unsaved souls will remain on the earth that is undergoing major natural disasters and that Jesus will return in physical form to lead an army. I guess that will be people who convert on the spot. In that case, I assume Jesus will give the people what they need to survive the bad stuff. But I don't really know. I find all of this stuff really confusing so it's hard to decide what is real and what one can do about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 One NT understanding is how Christ taught us Himself. The parable of the Sheep and Goats is a good rule. This had nothing to do with WHAT you believed or said, but what you DID. I think that was probably brought up in the other thread. My church (Eastern Orthodox) teaches that it isn't and either/or but a both/and. There's probably not one thing you can do (beside the obvious examples of those who convert on their death-bed - like the thief on the cross). There's not much "If you do/believe "A" then "B" will automatically happen. It's what you believe and then what you do with that belief. I bet the Westboro church people BELIEVE that Jesus is their savior...but do they love their neighbor and do good to him? Do they bless those who hate/persecute them? I believe Bonhoeffer called it "Cheap Grace". But, I also see life (and our salvation through that life) as a journey. Historically the Church as taught the the Church is the Arc of Salvation. I can run around in a little dinghy and go through our storm savaged lives or I can plunk myself down into the Arc of Salvation and embrace the tools (Sacraments, fasting, almsgiving, etc. etc.) She has given us to make it through the storms of life. I need this to help & guide me through. I fall down far too often and get myself all turned around. Having been a Protestant for 40+ years I would never ever go back to that Lone-Ranger style of living my Christian life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 But, I also see life (and our salvation through that life) as a journey. Historically the Church as taught the the Church is the Arc of Salvation. I can run around in a little dinghy and go through our storm savaged lives or I can plunk myself down into the Arc of Salvation and embrace the tools (Sacraments, fasting, almsgiving, etc. etc.) She has given us to make it through the storms of life. I need this to help & guide me through. I fall down far too often and get myself all turned around. Having been a Protestant for 40+ years I would never ever go back to that Lone-Ranger style of living my Christian life. If we are saved and sanctified through a personal relationship with Christ and the Spirit dwelling within us... What would you say is the purpose of the church, any church that someone would attend/belong to? How is that purpose fulfilled in a better way by the Orthodox church as compared to other churches? (What do you mean about the Protestant style being different?) Could someone choose a church simply because their friends or family are there, and still rely on their personal relationship with Christ for salvation and spiritual growth? Why or why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I was driving around running errands this afternoon, thinking about this thread, and I remembered the Didache. Lovedtodeath, you may find some helpful advice by reading this: http://www.catholicplanet.com/ebooks/didache.htm there are several translations available online. I looked for the most obvious one where the lang. wasn't too old-fashioned, but you can do your own google search. The Didache is one of the oldest non-canonical books, written around 90AD. It is a compliation of the teachings of the Disciples. It begins with the two Ways: the way of Life (Salvation) and the way of death. It's an excellent glimpse into the 1st century church and what they were teaching and practicing as Christians. Sadly, it was largely lost to the West until about the middle of the 18-19th century (can't remember exactly when). Here's the wikipedia write up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 Thanks Debbie. If we are saved and sanctified through a personal relationship with Christ and the Spirit dwelling within us... What would you say is the purpose of the church, any church that someone would attend/belong to? How is that purpose fulfilled in a better way by the Orthodox church as compared to other churches? (What do you mean about the Protestant style being different?) Could someone choose a church simply because their friends or family are there, and still rely on their personal relationship with Christ for salvation and spiritual growth? Why or why not? These questions are meant for all as well. This seems an important topic to ponder/ discussion to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
********* Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Acceptance of the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. The original ark was a historical necessity but was also a foreshadowing of the spiritual necessity and solution. This, but I would also add that repentance, as well as perserverance to the end is essential as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 One NT understanding is how Christ taught us Himself. The parable of the Sheep and Goats is a good rule. This had nothing to do with WHAT you believed or said, but what you DID. I think that was probably brought up in the other thread. My church (Eastern Orthodox) teaches that it isn't and either/or but a both/and. There's probably not one thing you can do (beside the obvious examples of those who convert on their death-bed - like the thief on the cross). There's not much "If you do/believe "A" then "B" will automatically happen. It's what you believe and then what you do with that belief. I bet the Westboro church people BELIEVE that Jesus is their savior...but do they love their neighbor and do good to him? Do they bless those who hate/persecute them? I believe Bonhoeffer called it "Cheap Grace". But, I also see life (and our salvation through that life) as a journey. Historically the Church as taught the the Church is the Arc of Salvation. I can run around in a little dinghy and go through our storm savaged lives or I can plunk myself down into the Arc of Salvation and embrace the tools (Sacraments, fasting, almsgiving, etc. etc.) She has given us to make it through the storms of life. I need this to help & guide me through. I fall down far too often and get myself all turned around. Having been a Protestant for 40+ years I would never ever go back to that Lone-Ranger style of living my Christian life. I sure wish that you would share what you believed without tearing down what other's believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I sure wish that you would share what you believed without tearing down what other's believe. Yes, this - exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailaena Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 S/O of JenniferB's thread. I would like to see what you all have to say. In order to survive judgment day, Noah had to get on to the Ark. What is the equivalent to survive the future judgment day? I must have COMPLETELY misunderstood your intent because I thought of a big spaceship... Maybe even one filled with DNA samples so that when the earth becomes habitable again life can be restored somehow. You know, because it's the future and all... Sorry:001_unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annandatje Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I must have COMPLETELY misunderstood your intent because I thought of a big spaceship... Maybe even one filled with DNA samples so that when the earth becomes habitable again life can be restored somehow. You know, because it's the future and all... Sorry:001_unsure: That was my line of thinking too. I was pondering a suspension of natural law only for the saved people that somehow enveloped them in an invisible protective shield and deactivated them until life resumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Faith in Christ, obedience to his commandments ("follow me"), and enduring to the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 If we are saved and sanctified through a personal relationship with Christ and the Spirit dwelling within us... What would you say is the purpose of the church, any church that someone would attend/belong to? How is that purpose fulfilled in a better way by the Orthodox church as compared to other churches? (What do you mean about the Protestant style being different?) Could someone choose a church simply because their friends or family are there, and still rely on their personal relationship with Christ for salvation and spiritual growth? Why or why not? These are really good questions and I fear I may not answer too well. But, to the first one...yes, Christianity is a personal relationship with Christ. I wrote on my blog today that Christianity isn't merely a set of beliefs we ascent to...it's a relationship with the Person of Jesus Christ...the Incarnate God. Christ didn't leave us to our own devices. He set up the Apostles to help lead the Church, which was established at Pentecost. Orthodox do not believe in the mystical church the same way Protestant do (just believing and all Christians are part of the Church). We believe it is a living entity...made up of members of the Church and led by Christ. He is the head of the Church. I can go to Russia and not understand a word of the Orthodox service- but it is still the same church as my little one here in MD. Some of the practices may be different, but the doctrines are the same - we say the same prayers and the same creed. The purpose of the church is to help us on the journey of Eternal life. That is actually in one of the prayers. It has the tool-box (as it were). There's an ancient quote - and I hope it won't offend, but this IS how the ancient Christians believed so it shouldn't be ignored... but St. Cyprian (250AD) said "You cannot have God as Father if you do not have the Church as your Mother". But, please, please understand that this does not mean we Orthodox think we have the corner on salvation. We reject the idea that anyone outside of the Orthodox faith is not saved. Eternal salvation is for God to decide, not man. I think it is dangerous to choose a church just because of friends. I know it happens and certainly in many countries they only have one church to choose from. But, friends can be empheral. I was in a church (it was a little start up church) many years ago. We were all great friends... kids were born, starting homeschooling... kids were all friends. We'd see each other several times during the week. But, then one left the church - then another moved - then another left.... well.. you get the picture. But, I would certainly think it should be a consideration. You wouldn't want your kids miserable?? But it should not be the only reason. But, then I have such different understanding about choosing a church now that I'm Orthodox. It was a different paradigm back then and it probably would have been of bigger importance. i hope this helps...keep asking questions if you don't understand because it might help me to better explain what I'm trying to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I sure wish that you would share what you believed without tearing down what other's believe. my apologies... I did not realize. Sometimes in my excitement I do get a bit carried away. Please forgive me if I have offended you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 i hope this helps...keep asking questions if you don't understand because it might help me to better explain what I'm trying to say.It might be a while before I get back to you... I want to read your link first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 I must have COMPLETELY misunderstood your intent because I thought of a big spaceship... Maybe even one filled with DNA samples so that when the earth becomes habitable again life can be restored somehow. You know, because it's the future and all... Sorry:001_unsure: Have you been watching Titan A.E. again? No I meant scripturally. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I read a while back about a big bunker that was built out west, somewhere (one of the Dakotas, maybe).... They were selling spots in it. I forget how many beds are in there, but I saw some pics of the common areas, etc. and it looked pretty posh for a bunker type building (underground). It supposedly will be fully stocked. I'm wondering what happens, though, if you can't get there from where you are when you need to, or if things really aren't as fully stocked as claimed. What if you don't have a fresh air/water source? What if they oversell the slots? What if they claim when you get there that you don't have a place? Such a set up seems very questionable to me! (I actually don't believe that we will "survive" a future judgement day, except as God ordains....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I believe the Church is the ark of salvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 The cross/Jesus. I think the Flood is a "type" of the judgment to come. If we aren't to be swept away in that judgment, we get "on board" the cross. Baptism is a dramatic parable of this: dead with Christ, into the waters, raised to life with Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) S/O of JenniferB's thread. I would like to see what you all have to say. In order to survive judgment day, Noah had to get on to the Ark. What is the equivalent to survive the future judgment day? I heard that the Orthodox Church is the Ark, so I will, God willing, hop on board. Surviving Judgment Day as you put it is needful, but the priority/focus for me is uniting with Christ. "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us...that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one." (Portions of John 17:21-23) Recently, I was blessed to witness my first Orthodox Baptism. Three times the priest asked, "Do you unite yourself with Christ?" and the person who was about to be baptized replied, "I unite myself with Christ." It was so powerful and beautiful as the exchange went back and forth with the questions that are the most important were asked and answered three times. Edited December 20, 2011 by JenniferB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 If we are saved and sanctified through a personal relationship with Christ and the Spirit dwelling within us... What would you say is the purpose of the church, any church that someone would attend/belong to? How is that purpose fulfilled in a better way by the Orthodox church as compared to other churches? (What do you mean about the Protestant style being different?) Could someone choose a church simply because their friends or family are there, and still rely on their personal relationship with Christ for salvation and spiritual growth? Why or why not? These are really good questions for discussion, but perhaps they would be more comfortably discussed on the Exploring Orthodox Christianity social group? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I heard that the Orthodox Church is the Ark, so I will, God willing, hop on board. It seems somewhat contradictory to me that Orthodox refer to themselves as the ark of salvation but also claim not only orthodox will be saved? If others can be saved, then what is the "true" ark of salvation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) my apologies... I did not realize. Sometimes in my excitement I do get a bit carried away. Please forgive me if I have offended you. I'm not orthodox, and I certainly wasn't offended. Edited December 20, 2011 by gardenmom5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 It seems somewhat contradictory to me that Orthodox refer to themselves as the ark of salvation but also claim not only orthodox will be saved? If others can be saved, then what is the "true" ark of salvation? This may be because we look at salvation as a process rather than just an event. One way to look at it is going on a trip in a car. I'll bring a map, water, maybe some food, perhaps I've prepared the car ahead of time. Can I get to my destination without these things? Sure... but it may be a little more difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I'm not orthodox, and I certainly wasn't offended. Aww, thank you. But, there were a few things in that post I thought I should have taken out...but I was in a hurry and I just hit the "reply" button. Should have listened to that still small voice. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onceuponatime Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 If you are talking about spiritual judgement: I will be trying to live a life of love for all of God's creatures and creation. If there is an end "event" I will throw myself on God's mercy and trust that he will do what is right. If you are talking about a physical judgement: I don't know the form that would take. If it is natural disaster, it would depend on the kind and scope. I have some skills that I think could come in handy depending on the circumstances. Really I can imagine any number of scenarios that are natural and man-made, there is no way to be prepared for all of them. Disease-I'm trying to live healthily, but my immune system may not handle it. Famine- I would share what I could with those in need. Ice age- adapt as well as possible. Nuclear disaster- I hope I die quickly. I fear for the immediate future of our country more than I am concerned about any ambiguous future judgement. I believe that you reap what you sow is a divine law, there are consequences for every action or inaction. We are headed for some kind of (worse) turmoil or trials as a consequence of massive deceit, fraud, and injustice. I just wish it would stop dragging its feet already and get it over with, so we can know what we will have to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 It seems somewhat contradictory to me that Orthodox refer to themselves as the ark of salvation but also claim not only orthodox will be saved? If others can be saved, then what is the "true" ark of salvation? I agree. If people can be saved outside of the ark then the analogy doesn't make sense. Only Jesus can be "the ark" IMO. It isn't my place to decide who is & who isn't even on that ark, he decides not me. I may or may not know all the criteria he would use to determine that. It is pure hubris IMO to place any more restrictions on salvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 This may be because we look at salvation as a process rather than just an event. One way to look at it is going on a trip in a car. I'll bring a map, water, maybe some food, perhaps I've prepared the car ahead of time. Can I get to my destination without these things? Sure... but it may be a little more difficult. This is the answer to my question from an OE perspective. OE makes it easier. This makes sense... if a certain denomination or set of beliefs make it harder, then certainly the opposite can apply. These are really good questions for discussion, but perhaps they would be more comfortably discussed on the Exploring Orthodox Christianity social group? I don't agree with calling a denomination the ark and it made me angry. I wasn't sure how talking about it on the group would go. :o I let go of the idea that a church, organization, group of men, society, etc. was important, and I received the Holy Spirit as a result. I think that clinging to a denomination keeps people blinded to the real ark of salvation, the Spirit of Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I agree. If people can be saved outside of the ark then the analogy doesn't make sense. Only Jesus can be "the ark" IMO. It isn't my place to decide who is & who isn't even on that ark, he decides not me. I may or may not know all the criteria he would use to determine that. It is pure hubris IMO to place any more restrictions on salvation. I agree completely with that. Like I said - when Orthodox talk about Salvation it means different things that most in the west. Hence, there can be a lot of misunderstanding. But you're right - only God decides who "makes it to heaven" - to put it in blunt or coarse words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) when Orthodox talk about Salvation it means different things that most in the west. I was wondering about this too. How? My neighbor invited me to a revival at her church. It is a big baptist church that everyone has heard of around here. The topic was... I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved. He related it as a three step process. 1. Spirit. 2. Soul. 3. Body The scripture to back up the idea of sanctification being an ongoing transformation not a one time event included a Greek word that was translated being transformed and had the meaning of metamorphasis. I wish I could find my notes with that scripture too... most non-Christians don't understand this. They think I should be perfect now. The future was in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15, when our bodies are transformed. Edited December 20, 2011 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 This is the answer to my question from an OE perspective. OE makes it easier. This makes sense... if a certain denomination or set of beliefs make it harder, then certainly the opposite can apply. Yes, this is the EO perspective as I understand it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I was wondering about this too. How? My neighbor invited me to a revival at her church. It is a big Baptist Church that everyone has heard of around here. The topic was... I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved. Complete with scripture to back up the idea of sanctification being an ongoing transformation not a one time event. I wish I could find my notes with that scripture too... most non-Christians don't understand this. They think I should be perfect now. wow... that's great. I'm glad to see the Baptists teaching this. It wasn't always what I heard when I was in that tradition...but then again, things change. :001_smile: I've sometimes heard that the Orthodox understanding of salvation is akin to the Western understanding of Sanctification. I don't know how far that analogy holds true, but it seems pretty close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) I feel like there are quite a few misconceptions out there. I asked someone about it and he said it seems to him that the church had changed its teachings and that a lot of churches have been really examining their teachings and coming more in line with scriptural understandings lately... then I find out he has never actually gone to a baptist church, and has only attended 2 total churches in his lifetime. One thing I was taught as a JW is that "Christendom" doesn't have a hope or purpose for the earth... that is completely untrue, but it kept my husband and I in that organization for years, thinking that all of these Christian denominations must have it all wrong... Edited December 20, 2011 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 These are really good questions for discussion, but perhaps they would be more comfortably discussed on the Exploring Orthodox Christianity social group? No, let's not send this to the EO group. Some find it interesting but won't take the time to join a closed group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) I would never ever go back to that Lone-Ranger style of living my Christian life. I really should read that link, but this statement bothers me. Being a Christian is a relationship with one person and believing in Him. What does believing in Him mean? For me it means trusting Him with everything. I just feel like putting too much trust into a church or organization keeps people from trusting Christ with everything... the very thing I had to learn in order to be a Christian at all. Philippians 2:12 work out your own salvation. When we are before the judgment seat of God we will stand alone. Edited December 20, 2011 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 wow... that's great. I'm glad to see the Baptists teaching this. It wasn't always what I heard when I was in that tradition...but then again, things change. :001_smile: The thing is that this teaching isn't unusual. Its a great big world out there, you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I was wondering about this too. How? My neighbor invited me to a revival at her church. It is a big baptist church that everyone has heard of around here. The topic was... I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved. He related it as a three step process. 1. Spirit. 2. Soul. 3. Body The scripture to back up the idea of sanctification being an ongoing transformation not a one time event included a Greek word that was translated being transformed and had the meaning of metamorphasis. I wish I could find my notes with that scripture too... most non-Christians don't understand this. They think I should be perfect now. The future was in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15, when our bodies are transformed. This is not a new teaching. It is because of the grammar in the Greek where the word "salvation" (sozo and it's derivatives) are being used. Sometimes the event is seen from the perspective of conversion - you are saved at that moment and have eternal life. Sometimes the event is seen from a broader perspective - a panoramic view that looks at salvation as starting at conversion and ending in eternity itself - so you are being saved. Sometimes the event is seen from the perspective of the culmination of God's plan - so you will be saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 It isn't my place to decide who is & who isn't even on that ark, he decides not me. I agree & the above is Orthodox. Orthodox say that we know where He is; we don't know where He isn't. I don't agree with calling a denomination the ark and it made me angry. I don't want to make you more angry, but to clarify the EO view of themselves. They don't consider their Church a denomination, but the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, recited in the creed every Sunday in the Divine Liturgy. No, let's not send this to the EO group. Some find it interesting but won't take the time to join a closed group. Ok, I just didn't want to provoke offense. With your blessing I'm more comfortable. But since I am just an inquirer, I won't have too much to contribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Ok, I just didn't want to provoke offense. With your blessing I'm more comfortable. But since I am just an inquirer, I won't have too much to contribute. Ack! The only place my blessing half way counts is in the Crossing the Tiber social group. ;) As I'm not EO I won't have much to contribute either. But I find it interesting. I'm sure others find the topic to be of interest also hence the number of views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I agree & the above is Orthodox. Orthodox say that we know where He is; we don't know where He isn't. OK, so EO believe that the Church (EO church?) is the ark God decides who is in the ark & who isn't there is no invisible church I'd love for this to be explained further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 OK, so EO believe that the Church (EO church?) is the ark God decides who is in the ark & who isn't there is no invisible church I'd love for this to be explained further. I was agreeing with you in principle, not literally, as in God literally decides who is in and who is out, like in Calvinism, that's not EO. What I meant was in the principle of a non-judgmental attitude "we don't know where He isn't" that's Orthodox. I'm sorry if I confused the EO view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I really should read that link, but this statement bothers me. Being a Christian is a relationship with one person and believing in Him. What does believing in Him mean? For me it means trusting Him with everything. I just feel like putting too much trust into a church or organization keeps people from trusting Christ with everything... the very thing I had to learn in order to be a Christian at all. Philippians 2:12 work out your own salvation. When we are before the judgment seat of God we will stand alone. I don't think that is really true though, that you will be alone. What about the people who taught you about Christ, loved you, gave you advice on your spiritual life? What about those who pray for you? What impact has your religious community had? And what about those we have taught and prayed for - or taught incorrectly or not given spiritual care for? We are not only on a ship, we're members of the Body, and no organ can survive alone without the rest of the body. So much of our life and who we are is in relation to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avila Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) OK, so EO believe that the Church (EO church?) is the ark God decides who is in the ark & who isn't there is no invisible church I'd love for this to be explained further. I will take a quick stab at the RC version. Hopefully the EO ladies will graciously explain theirs. We believe God left us a Church to protect and guide us, and through that Church, he provides us the sacraments, which give us the grace to nourish us on our journey. The Church and the sacraments she provides are the ordinary means of salvation and a sure way to know the truth and help to live it. In that respect, you could call the Church the ark, as she is the guide for the path. But we serve an extraordinary God. And in his mercy and for his purposes, he may choose to save people through extraordinary means. So while God intended and directed a path for us, it may not be the only path for salvation. But we believe the Church was intended to be the safest and most direct path. We don't believe the Church is invisible. We believe it is a solid, concrete thing, and we believe that God uses the Church for the salvation of all people who will be saved, even those who are not members. We also believe that there is a bond between all believers in Christ that supercedes death. We would not call it a church, but the communion of saints. And everyone in the friendship of Christ would be part of this communion. We may not share the full earthly unity inside the visible Church, but one day, we will have that unity in Heaven. Edited December 20, 2011 by Asenik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) OK, so EO believe that the Church (EO church?) is the ark Yes, but wouldn't go so far as to say the ark that is the EO church is the ONLY boat out there. We don't know about the other boats, but we know God built an Ark for the journey and since it's the one He built for this purpose, it's where we want to be. God decides who is in the ark & who isn't The Orthodox church is very big on free will. Let all who will, come. Like the father in the story of the prodigal son, all who come will find open arms and blessing. there is no invisible church The church is both visible (those who are still on this earth) and invisible (those who have gone before). The church on this earth functions in both visible (church buildings, hierarchy, incense, vestments, candles, divine services) and invisible (love, faith, hope, trust) ways. I'd love for this to be explained further. Allison, I hope that's helpful. Edited December 20, 2011 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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