silliness7 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I believe we're looking at "salvation" differently. In the Orthodox church (and probably others, I'm just not familiar with them), salvation doesn't equal "not perishing" if you mean "going to heaven when you die." Salvation is for THIS life as much as the next, and it involves becoming united to Christ; it's a process. As I mentioned in the post to Allison, the Ark is a tool of salvation in THIS life -- it provides a place where we can "work out our salvation." And it certainly includes the gangplank -- I like bringing that into it, thank you. The gang plank, for us, would be baptism, which is part of the Ark but not the whole thing. I'm just trying to clarify the teachings of the Orthodox Church (and probably doing a poor job of it), not trying to judge the beliefs you hold or the beliefs of others. I think you are doing a wonderful job explaining. Thank you. I feel like I'm understanding your pov better. I think you are right in that we are defining salvation differently. When I say salvation I mean being saved from the wrath of God being poured out on me (justly) for all of my sins, much as his wrath poured out (justly) on those who were not on the ark. Those who are in Christ are covered in His righteousness and will escape that wrath. I do believe in sanctification and that there is a growing to be more like Christ in *this* life, but I've never considered the Ark being a picture of that...the grapevine bearing fruit puts a good picture in my head of this idea. Honestly, I really didn't get the Ark as a picture of anything until we started reading reformed theology some years back. I've enjoyed reading through this thread. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 In the Ark analogy (considering the different churches around the world), Christ is the commander of the fleet. :D I know we don't agree on some things, Allison, but I hope I haven't been unloving or condescending in any way because I truly don't feel that way. Thank you, but I try really hard to not remember who says what hurtful things. Have you said that Protestants view of scripture is anarchy where everyone makes up their own truth? That we are lone-rangers? That we're idiots following a racist & don't even know it? That we are ignorant of Church history? That we can't possibly believe X because that's an Orthodox view & if we believed it we would be part of the Orthodox church? Posting articles illustrating how you couldn't possibly be Protestant because they're so illogical? Because to me all those things are very unloving & condescending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Have you said that Protestants view of scripture is anarchy where everyone makes up their own truth? That we are lone-rangers? That we're idiots following a racist & don't even know it? That we are ignorant of Church history? That we can't possibly believe X because that's an Orthodox view & if we believed it we would be part of the Orthodox church? Posting articles illustrating how you couldn't possibly be Protestant because they're so illogical? Uh, no, I don't believe so. That's not to say that I don't believe in some of the underlying suppositions behind some of these statements. If some people have interpreted anything I've said in regard to these underlying suppositions this harshly though, then I apologize for not being more gentle and clear and for any offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I think you are right in that we are defining salvation differently. When I say salvation I mean being saved from the wrath of God being poured out on me (justly) for all of my sins, much as his wrath poured out (justly) on those who were not on the ark. Those who are in Christ are covered in His righteousness and will escape that wrath. Okay, good to know. Thank you. It's hard when we define terms differently, but we can still keep the conversation going as long as we realize we might be speaking of different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 Noah was saved because he obeyed God's instructions. God instructed him to build an ark with specific instructions. Noah did all that God commanded exactly. Genesis 7:5, Hebrews 11:7 Likewise, we are saved by obedience to God by grace through faith. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%206:16&version=KJV, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:21-27&version=KJV, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8&version=KJV, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2016:31&version=KJV Scripture! Praise God!:hurray::hurray: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) I believe we're looking at "salvation" differently. In the Orthodox church (and probably others, I'm just not familiar with them), salvation doesn't equal "not perishing" if you mean "going to heaven when you die." Salvation is for THIS life as much as the next, and it involves becoming united to Christ; it's a process. hmmm... see, that is why I feel that doctrinal talk gets so confusing. Romans 8:10 But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you]. 11 And if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you. 1 John 5: 11 And this is that testimony (that evidence): God gave us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who possesses the Son has that life; he who does not possess the Son of God does not have that life. 13 I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have life, yes, eternal life. Romans 8 1THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus has freed me from the law of sin and of death. 3 For God has done what the Law could not do, ... 4 So that the righteous and just requirement of the Law might be fully met in us who live and move not in the ways of the flesh but in the ways of the Spirit 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Edited December 23, 2011 by Lovedtodeath Amplified Bible... spacing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayfaring Stranger Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 My understanding is that the ark is a type (although a weaker type) of the church. Any church (Eastern Orthodox, RC or Protestant) follows this type because it is were we go when the storm of life is raging all around us. The ark is a refugee and so is the church. But like the ark , with all those animals, the church is not always pleasent to be in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) My understanding is that the ark is a type of the church. Any church (Eastern Orthodox, RC or Protestant) follows this type because it is were we go when the storm of life is raging all around us. Simplicity. Relief. I'll go with this explanation of the church/ ark connection. Thanks. (I did see someone else say this.) Milovany, I love you. Edited December 23, 2011 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Simplicity. Relief. I'll go with this explanation of the church/ ark connection. Thanks. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Simplicity. Relief. I'll go with this explanation of the church/ ark connection. Thanks. (I did see someone else say this.) Milovany, I love you. Hey, yeah, that's what I said! :D A guy just said it with fewer words (go figure). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 hmmm... see, that is why I feel that doctrinal talk gets so confusing. Romans 8:10 But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you]. 11 And if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you. 1 John 5: 11 And this is that testimony (that evidence): God gave us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who possesses the Son has that life; he who does not possess the Son of God does not have that life. 13 I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have life, yes, eternal life. Romans 8 1THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus has freed me from the law of sin and of death. 3 For God has done what the Law could not do, ... 4 So that the righteous and just requirement of the Law might be fully met in us who live and move not in the ways of the flesh but in the ways of the Spirit 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Nothing you quoted above precludes a process of salvation that creates a soul being united to God, through Christ, by the Holy Spirit, over time (in a addition to moments of salvation such turning to Christ, baptism and when receiving the Eucharist). In fact, the Scriptures support the idea, here are some for your consideration: Mark 13:13, Rom. 8:24-25, 1 Cor. 5:5, 1 Cor. 11:26, Phil. 2:12, Phil. 3:7-14 (esp. 12-14). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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