The ark of Noah's day... What is today's equivalent?

[Bluegoat]

I was agreeing with you in principle, not literally, as in God literally decides who is in and who is out, like in Calvinism, that's not EO. What I meant was in the principle of a non-judgmental attitude "we don't know where He isn't" that's Orthodox. I'm sorry if I confused the EO view.

 

 

I'm not Orthodox, but I'd suggest extending the metaphor.

 

You could say, that God chooses us all - it is we who decide whether we are getting into the boat or not. But there are perhaps some life-boats tied to the main ship which will also, being pulled by the ship, get to the final destination. The people inside might have to suffer through more hard tack and less nice cooking. Since the ship is sailing in the dark, it is very difficult to see which boats are really tied to the ship, and which are not.

 

That is, all who achieve union with God do so through the teachings and sacraments offered to the Church, including those who are for some reason separated from her visibly on Earth. But correct teachings and sacraments cannot be guaranteed outside of the institutional church.

 

I think though, it might be incorrect to say that the EO does not believe in a mystical church - it seems to me more that they believe in a mystical and institutional church. It is possible to have one without the other, at least in the short term on Earth, but really not ideal.

[Lovedtodeath]

There was only one Ark for the world of Noah. There were no lifeboats.

[Avila]

There was only one Ark for the world of Noah. There were no lifeboats.

 

But I think there are many, many more people who will be saved now than the few in the time of Noah.

 

It is just an analogy either way. And no analogy is perfect, in human understanding anyhow.

[goldberry]

JMHO - The ark was the means of gaining salvation at that time. Therefore, the church (association of believers) cannot be the ark, because the church is not a means of salvation in itself. Faith in Christ and his sacrifice is our means of salvation.

 

However - faith in Christ and his sacrifice is not a one-time event, it is a walk in faith with Christ. The scriptures are clear that Christ intended us to make that walk with fellow believers. So while the church is not a means of salvation, it is intended to play an important role in maintaining our walk with Christ, which is the means of salvation.

 

Can a person fulfill their walk with Christ alone? If a person were forced to walk alone, then God's spirit would support them in that walk. But, it was not God's intention to walk alone. God uses the church to support that walk. So if a person CHOSE to walk alone because they would prefer not to deal with the complications that come with fellow believers, then I don't see that walk as being successful, because that would not be in accord with God's will for us according to the Scriptures.

 

So, while the church is a tool to support our walk with Christ, and not a means of salvation in itself, it is a tool that God has willed us to use. Our walk with Christ, and hence our means of salvation, will be successful by following God's will for us. The church (association of fellow believers) is part of that.

[Lovedtodeath]

But I think there are many, many more people who will be saved now than the few in the time of Noah.

:iagree:Abraham's seed are as the sands of the sea.

 

Genesis 22:17; Galatians 3:29

 

Revelation 5:9, 10 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

 

Revelation 7:9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

JMHO - The ark was the means of gaining salvation at that time. Therefore, the church (association of believers) cannot be the ark, because the church is not a means of salvation in itself. Faith in Christ and his sacrifice is our means of salvation.

 

However - faith in Christ and his sacrifice is not a one-time event, it is a walk in faith with Christ. The scriptures are clear that Christ intended us to make that walk with fellow believers. So while the church is not a means of salvation, it is intended to play an important role in maintaining our walk with Christ, which is the means of salvation.

 

Can a person fulfill their walk with Christ alone? If a person were forced to walk alone, then God's spirit would support them in that walk. But, it was not God's intention to walk alone. God uses the church to support that walk. So if a person CHOSE to walk alone because they would prefer not to deal with the complications that come with fellow believers, then I don't see that walk as being successful, because that would not be in accord with God's will for us according to the Scriptures.

 

So, while the church is a tool to support our walk with Christ, and not a means of salvation in itself, it is a tool that God has willed us to use. Our walk with Christ, and hence our means of salvation, will be successful by following God's will for us. The church (association of fellow believers) is part of that.

:iagree::grouphug:

[Jean in Newcastle]

JMHO - The ark was the means of gaining salvation at that time. Therefore, the church (association of believers) cannot be the ark, because the church is not a means of salvation in itself. Faith in Christ and his sacrifice is our means of salvation.

 

However - faith in Christ and his sacrifice is not a one-time event, it is a walk in faith with Christ. The scriptures are clear that Christ intended us to make that walk with fellow believers. So while the church is not a means of salvation, it is intended to play an important role in maintaining our walk with Christ, which is the means of salvation.

 

Can a person fulfill their walk with Christ alone? If a person were forced to walk alone, then God's spirit would support them in that walk. But, it was not God's intention to walk alone. God uses the church to support that walk. So if a person CHOSE to walk alone because they would prefer not to deal with the complications that come with fellow believers, then I don't see that walk as being successful, because that would not be in accord with God's will for us according to the Scriptures.

 

So, while the church is a tool to support our walk with Christ, and not a means of salvation in itself, it is a tool that God has willed us to use. Our walk with Christ, and hence our means of salvation, will be successful by following God's will for us. The church (association of fellow believers) is part of that.

 

Well said.

[Laurie4b]

wow... that's great. I'm glad to see the Baptists teaching this. It wasn't always what I heard when I was in that tradition...but then again, things change. :001_smile:

 

I've sometimes heard that the Orthodox understanding of salvation is akin to the Western understanding of Sanctification. I don't know how far that analogy holds true, but it seems pretty close.

 

Well yes, it's basic orthodox Protestant theology . "Being saved" is another way of saying "sanctification." It's nothing new. Just because a particular preacher didn't teach/emphasize it doesn't mean it's new or changing theology.

[Lovedtodeath]

Well yes, it's basic orthodox Protestant theology . "Being saved" is another way of saying "sanctification." It's nothing new. Just because a particular preacher didn't teach/emphasize it doesn't mean it's new or changing theology.

I think that a lot of churches stick to the milk most of the time... so some members don't actually seek out and go beyond that and realize that there is more to it?

 

I think the scriptures in my signature are a good example. That is why they are there. I have encountered very few people that can discuss these scriptures with me... my husband and I had assumed that we were unique in our understanding of these scriptures because they are normally not discussed. That was disappointing to us. It turns out we were wrong. We were pleasantly surprised to find that there are Christians in various denominations (and lack of) who have the same understanding that we do.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[8circles]

I will take a quick stab at the RC version. Hopefully the EO ladies will graciously explain theirs.

 

 

Thank you but no, that doesn't explain. It was a question for EO specifically.

 

Allison, I hope that's helpful.

 

Thank you but no. Either the church is the ark in which people are saved or its not.

 

There was only one Ark for the world of Noah. There were no lifeboats.

 

Yes. I don't see how the analogy of the church being the ark works on any level at all.

 

JMHO - The ark was the means of gaining salvation at that time. Therefore, the church (association of believers) cannot be the ark, because the church is not a means of salvation in itself. Faith in Christ and his sacrifice is our means of salvation.

 

However - faith in Christ and his sacrifice is not a one-time event, it is a walk in faith with Christ. The scriptures are clear that Christ intended us to make that walk with fellow believers. So while the church is not a means of salvation, it is intended to play an important role in maintaining our walk with Christ, which is the means of salvation.

 

Can a person fulfill their walk with Christ alone? If a person were forced to walk alone, then God's spirit would support them in that walk. But, it was not God's intention to walk alone. God uses the church to support that walk. So if a person CHOSE to walk alone because they would prefer not to deal with the complications that come with fellow believers, then I don't see that walk as being successful, because that would not be in accord with God's will for us according to the Scriptures.

 

So, while the church is a tool to support our walk with Christ, and not a means of salvation in itself, it is a tool that God has willed us to use. Our walk with Christ, and hence our means of salvation, will be successful by following God's will for us. The church (association of fellow believers) is part of that.

Yes, well said.

 

Well yes, it's basic orthodox Protestant theology . "Being saved" is another way of saying "sanctification." It's nothing new. Just because a particular preacher didn't teach/emphasize it doesn't mean it's new or changing theology.

Yes.

[Lovedtodeath]

But correct teachings and sacraments cannot be guaranteed outside of the institutional church.

I don't think that correct teachings are ever guaranteed. That is why we are given warnings about false teachers among the church of God (2 Peter 2:1), and warnings to listen to only One. (Matthew 23:8; 1 John 2:27)

 

"Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life."

 

"I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me." (John 14:6)

 

There is one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus. (1 Tim. 2:5)

 

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. (1 Peter 3:15)

Edited December 20, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

 

Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, or Jehovah's Witness, as long as we put our faith for salvation in a man, group of men, anyone or anything other than our one and only Savior and Mediator, then are we walking in the Spirit? Are we marked by the Spirit? Baptist, Pentecostal, Eastern Orthodox, or Catholic, all are the same in the eyes of God if the Spirit of Christ dwells in us and we cling to our one and only teacher. (1 John 2:27)

 

Romans 8 5-11

those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

 

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

 

It therefore seems to me that the Spirit of Christ is the one and only ark!

 

Most of you know that I have been on quite a spiritual journey. I have been proven wrong and broken. I am starting over, being molded by Christ. So my next question then to ask myself is this: does it matter which church I go to? Why?

Edited December 20, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[JenniferB]

Either the church is the ark in which people are saved or its not....I don't see how the analogy of the church being the ark works on any level at all.

 

The EO Church is the ark in which people are saved. This is evidenced by all the Saints the Church has recognized. These Saints were/are part of the Church, so therefore the Church is the place where people are saved. But, they also admit that they don't know where God isn't. The EO are not usually that literal with their analogies.

 

Today, in the EO Church the Gospel reading was taken from Mark chapter 9. I will paste a portion of the Scripture reading for today, because it speaks to this issue: "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward." (Mark 9:38-41 KJV)

[Lovedtodeath]

Today, in the EO Church the Gospel reading was taken from Mark chapter 9. I will paste a portion of the Scripture reading for today, because it speaks to this issue: "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward." (Mark 9:38-41 KJV)

Beautiful.

[simka2]

 

 

 

Either the church is the ark in which people are saved or its not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. :confused: What do you mean by, "In which people are being saved?" Saved from what? I think it might be easier to answer if we knew specifically what was being asked. :001_smile:

[8circles]

I believe the Church is the ark of salvation.

 

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. :confused: What do you mean by, "In which people are being saved?" Saved from what? I think it might be easier to answer if we knew specifically what was being asked. :001_smile:

 

I'm not bringing any new concepts into this discussion.

 

What is the "ark of salvation"? I would imagine that people in the ark will have salvation. ie. they will be saved.

[JenniferB]

I would imagine that people in the ark will have salvation. ie. they will be saved.

 

I've never heard this as an absolute in my EO inquiries. One is not necessarily saved if one is an Orthodox Christian. What they say is that we know where God is, for example, in the Eucharist. That God is there in the Eucharist is the absolute, for the EO, but not the fact that all who partake are eventually saved. The one who runs the race to win, who perseveres to the very end, he or she will be saved.

[milovany]

Allison, I hope that's helpful.

 

Thank you but no. Either the church is the ark in which people are saved or its not.

 

I truly don't think it's an either/or situation, Allison. Yes, the good Lord in His wisdom and love provided an "ark" (the Church) in which He allows those that want to "get on board" to work out their salvation in the fullest sense possible (with the liturgics and sacraments He's ordained), but He's also compassionate and merciful. Not everyone will board the ark, and I'm not going to limit Him by saying that anyone not on the boat is unsaved. My Gramma died at 99 years old in February -- she was an atheist/humanist most of her life, but in the last 6-7 years of her life began asking questions regarding faith. She never became Orthodox. Is she "unsaved"? I don't know -- I do know that the last time I saw her she said she loved God and wanted to be with Him in heaven. Is she not going to have that opportunity just because in her situation she was not catechized in the Orthodox faith, baptized/christmated, and given the Eucharist by the hand of an Orthodox priest? I don't believe that will necessarily be the case. God is merciful and I'm still praying He will have mercy on her soul.

 

The Ark is the safest place, and His given place (according to Orthodox life), but I can't say it's the only way. Noah's ark was only able to save a limited amount of people -- was everyone else ****ed and lost just because they hadn't heard a flood was coming, that an ark was being built and that they needed to be on it? I don't think we can say that. So it's similar to that. As someone above said, all analogies will fall apart at some point, but it's a decent one.

Edited December 20, 2011 by milovaný

[Celia]

I've not read the rest of this thread, so this has probably been said. But nonetheless, the ark represents baptism into Christ.

 

1 Peter 3:20-22

 

King James Version (KJV)

 

 

 

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

It's really quite neat how it fits. A very brief scattered rundown as my toddler is on my lap! After Eden, we see two lines of descendants. Cain to Lamech (bad) and Seth to Noah (good). We see the longsuffering of God in the length of the life of Methuselah, and we're told that the days before the return of Christ are much like things were at the time of Noah (Mark 24). The ark was covered within and without with pitch, and that word is also the word for atonement (further showing that Christ is our Ark). The flood also occured in the 600th year of Noah's life, and as six is the biblical number of flesh, we typicall see the end of all flesh, but those who are in Christ are saved. We also see that the number who are faithful at the time are few (only 8 were saved), so our beliefs don't have to be popular to be correct!

[simka2]

I'm not bringing any new concepts into this discussion.

 

What is the "ark of salvation"? I would imagine that people in the ark will have salvation. ie. they will be saved.

 

Hmmmm....it has never been presented to me as a definite thing. I can see if you read it that way it would sound like we are saying that being in EO means you have a ticket to Heaven, no questions asked. I would find that a bit disquieting.

 

Thankfully, when you account for the other EO beliefs that impression cannot stand. For in EO sanctification can continue after death.

 

We have already beat into the ground the fact that when EO say "salvation" a more accurate non-EO, non-rc, translation would be "sactification."

 

I think Ark of Sanctification gets the point across.

[Avila]

Hmmmm....it has never been presented to me as a definite thing. I can see if you read it that way it would sound like we are saying that being in EO means you have a ticket to Heaven, no questions asked. I would find that a bit disquieting.

 

Thankfully, when you account for the other EO beliefs that impression cannot stand. For in EO sanctification can continue after death.

 

We have already beat into the ground the fact that when EO say "salvation" a more accurate non-EO, non-rc, translation would be "sactification."

 

I think Ark of Sanctification gets the point across.

 

:iagree:

 

 

I don't think there is ever any guaranteed ticket to salvation or "moment" of salvation for EO or RC this side of eternity. Nobody inside the Church is definitively, during their lifetimes, given that, so it isn't like the Church is excluding anyone from it either just based on membership. He who endures to the end will be saved, and we are all saved by the grace of God in his mercy.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Asenik

[8circles]

I truly don't think it's an either/or situation, Allison. Yes, the good Lord in His wisdom and love provided an "ark" (the Church) in which He allows those that want to "get on board" to work out their salvation in the fullest sense possible (with the liturgics and sacraments He's ordained), but He's also compassionate and merciful. Not everyone will board the ark, and I'm not going to limit Him by saying that anyone not on the boat is unsaved. My Gramma died at 99 years old in February -- she was an atheist/humanist most of her life, but in the last 6-7 years of her life began asking questions regarding faith. She never became Orthodox. Is she "unsaved"? I don't know -- I do know that the last time I saw her she said she loved God and wanted to be with Him in heaven. Is she not going to have that opportunity just because in her situation she was not catechized in the Orthodox faith, baptized/christmated, and given the Eucharist by the hand of an Orthodox priest? I don't believe that will necessarily be the case. God is merciful and I'm still praying He will have mercy on her soul.

 

The Ark is the safest place, and His given place (according to Orthodox life), but I can't say it's the only way. Noah's ark was only able to save a limited amount of people -- was everyone else ****ed and lost just because they hadn't heard a flood was coming, that an ark was being built and that they needed to be on it? I don't think we can say that. So it's similar to that. As someone above said, all analogies will fall apart at some point, but it's a decent one.

 

I've never heard the ark representing the best way out of many to/of sanctification/salvation. I don't quite get how that works, but it obviously does to you so [shrug]. Its quite a different way to read the story of Noah.

[PrincessMommy]

I've never heard the ark representing the best way out of many to/of sanctification/salvation. I don't quite get how that works, but it obviously does to you so [shrug]. Its quite a different way to read the story of Noah.

 

Would it help if we said it is a type of ark because you really seem stuck on the word "ark" as if we are saying that the Ark of Salvation must be exactly the same as Noah's ark. We see the Noah's ark as a prefiguring, and not a very complete one at that. So, you're right, it won't work as a complete or literal example/analogy/whatever. Just as Joseph is a type or prefiguring of Christ - but certainly no one thinks that Joseph and Jesus are exactly the same and one must pidgeon hole exactly into the other... but Joseph shows us some of what Jesus was going to be.

 

I dunno, maybe I'm mudding the waters more. I certainly didn't want people to get stuck on the word "ark" and assume that it all fits into a neat little package. We, as Christians, know it doesn't work that way with salvation. Otherwise we wouldn't have the thief on the cross.

[8circles]

Would it help if we said it is a type of ark because you really seem stuck on the word "ark" as if we are saying that the Ark of Salvation must be exactly the same as Noah's ark. We see the Noah's ark as a prefiguring, and not a very complete one at that. So, you're right, it won't work as a complete or literal example/analogy/whatever. Just as Joseph is a type or prefiguring of Christ - but certainly no one thinks that Joseph and Jesus are exactly the same and one must pidgeon hole exactly into the other... but Joseph shows us some of what Jesus was going to be.

 

I dunno, maybe I'm mudding the waters more. I certainly didn't want people to get stuck on the word "ark" and assume that it all fits into a neat little package. We, as Christians, know it doesn't work that way with salvation. Otherwise we wouldn't have the thief on the cross.

 

Well, I don't think I'm stuck on the word "ark" - that was the question that was asked & it was answered in the same manner. Anyway, I think I understand it enough to know it isn't for me.

[Lovedtodeath]

I've not read the rest of this thread, so this has probably been said. But nonetheless, the ark represents baptism into Christ.

 

1 Peter 3:20-22

 

King James Version (KJV)

 

 

 

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Thank you Celia. My dh was trying to tell me to use this scripture (but didn't provide the verse) and I wasn't quite sure which he was talking about.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think Ark of Sanctification gets the point across.

Wow Simka. That is a very helpful explanation.

[Avila]

Thank you Celia. My dh was trying to tell me to use this scripture (but didn't provide the verse) and I wasn't quite sure which he was talking about.

 

The point about baptism is an interesting one. I do believe baptism saves us. I am not sure the ark analogy works in a literal way any better than it does with Noah's ark, but it is something to ponder.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Wow Simka. That is a very helpful explanation.

 

The relationship between "salvation" and "sanctification" is not limited to the EO church. It is a doctrine that is inherent in Scripture and has been taught in every church that I've ever gone to.

[Avila]

The relationship between "salvation" and "sanctification" is not limited to the EO church. It is a doctrine that is inherent in Scripture and has been taught in every church that I've ever gone to.

 

Interesting point, Jean.

 

The argument is usually whether the sanctification is necessary for salvation or is the fruit of the salvation though, I think. Feel free to correct me on that, if you disagree. That is just was it sounds like as I am reading along.

 

Even after reading through, it seems like an issue of the exact when and not the what part. So maybe some of that is terminology.

[Bluegoat]

Well yes, it's basic orthodox Protestant theology . "Being saved" is another way of saying "sanctification." It's nothing new. Just because a particular preacher didn't teach/emphasize it doesn't mean it's new or changing theology.

 

Not really, they are related, but not identical. The Reformers like Luther and Calvin separated the ideas though they were part of the same process. But the separation is an important part of their theology, it is closely related to the separation of faith and works.

 

In a more catholic/orthodox treatment, you don't really separate the salvation/sanctification to the same degree, in the same way that you don't really separate faith and works.

 

And then there are those Protestants who hold to doctrines that seem to cut sanctification out of the picture altogether.

 

Thank you but no, that doesn't explain. It was a question for EO specifically.

 

Thank you but no. Either the church is the ark in which people are saved or its not.

 

Yes. I don't see how the analogy of the church being the ark works on any level at all.

 

Yes, well said.

 

Yes.

 

I think you are taking what is one metaphor for understanding what the Church is far too literally. The Church is an ark, it is a Body made up of organs, it is a Bride. It isn't some kind of live transportation vessel that is newly married. These are all ways of speaking about a reality that is really above a human's ability to comprehend.

 

It might be easier to understand the description if you consider what the Church's relation to the faith and teaching is. Christ is the mediator, the physical unity between heaven and Earth. But most of us were not around to see him, or meet him. And he is in Heaven, not immediately available. So how do we have access to Christ, removed as we are in time and space?

 

Through the Church. Christ institutes the Church so that we have access to him indirectly, through the witness of the Church (the apostles and their stories and other Scriptures, the saints, the liturgy) and directly through the Sacraments.

 

So when someone says that all are saved in or through the Church, they are partly saying that even those outside the institutional Church have that witness through the Church.

 

But that still doesn't mean that we can say those who haven't even that witness cannot be in Christ. God gives the "rules" as it were, for us. We can't bind him to them and it would be folly to try.

 

I don't think that correct teachings are ever guaranteed. That is why we are given warnings about false teachers among the church of God (2 Peter 2:1), and warnings to listen to only One. (Matthew 23:8; 1 John 2:27)

 

"Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life."

 

"I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me." (John 14:6)

 

There is one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus. (1 Tim. 2:5)

 

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. (1 Peter 3:15)

 

Traditionally Christians up until relatively recently have believed that within the Church there was a guarantee of a certain level of correct teaching on essentials. Those who taught incorrectly on these items and refused to come back into the fold placed themselves outside the institutional Church.

 

It is not really much different than the idea that Scripture can infallibly teach the essentials of faith to those who subordinate themselves to it. In both cases, people can choose to go outside of that and change the meaning to teach falsely.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Interesting point, Jean.

 

The argument is usually whether the sanctification is necessary for salvation or is the fruit of the salvation though, I think. Feel free to correct me on that, if you disagree. That is just was it sounds like as I am reading along.

 

Even after reading through, it seems like an issue of the exact when and not the what part. So maybe some of that is terminology.

 

Yes, I do think that you expressed the argument correctly, at least as far as I understand it as well.

 

Scripture itself is not as compartmentalized as the study of theology has made it sound, though. In some ways, I think these arguments are silly in a chicken-egg sort of way.

 

If you want to get technical, I guess I would say that God the Holy Spirit does a number of things at the moment of salvation - regeneration is one of those things, sanctification (in it's very beginning phase) is another. In that sense, it is the fruit of salvation.

 

BUT - if you are talking about the end point of salvation - that of physically being in the presence of God for eternity, you need to be sanctified because God is holy. So we have God's righteousness (part of being in union with Christ) in addition with God working in our lives to sanctify us. In that sense, sanctification is necessary for salvation.

 

But the thing is, in what I wrote above, the same words are used to look at different parts of a complex relationship. For some people, this complex relationship is stretched out over a long time and sometimes have discernible phases to it. In other people this complex relationship is compressed into a very small time frame before the person dies. You aren't going to see phases of growth in that situation - there just wasn't time. But it doesn't matter - what God did at the moment of salvation is efficacious for my salvation even if it hasn't had time to flower to a discernible culmination through time.

 

Where I suspect some people would start to disagree with me the most would be with regards to what is called eternal security - whether what God did at the moment of salvation is enough in those cases where people veer away from God's plan.

[JenniferB]

It might be easier to understand the description if you consider what the Church's relation to the faith and teaching is. Christ is the mediator, the physical unity between heaven and Earth. But most of us were not around to see him, or meet him. And he is in Heaven, not immediately available. So how do we have access to Christ, removed as we are in time and space?

 

Through the Church. Christ institutes the Church so that we have access to him indirectly, through the witness of the Church (the apostles and their stories and other Scriptures, the saints, the liturgy) and directly through the Sacraments.

 

Bluegoat, your post made so much sense to me, especially this part. Thanks.

[Trish]

Acceptance of the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. The original ark was a historical necessity but was also a foreshadowing of the spiritual necessity and solution.

 

:iagree: I like this, Jean, and I'd add the ability to immediately and completely accept the Lord's MERCY. I think it will be offered to this generation.

[Lovedtodeath]

On justification/salvation and sanctification:

 

Colossians 1 We give thanks to God, [/url]the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;

because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel

which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth;

just as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who is a faithful servant of Christ on our behalf,

and he also informed us of your love in the Spirit.

For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

 

 

 

So here, it appears, they have a place in heaven laid up for them, are qualified to share in the inheritance, yet the gospel is continuously bearing fruit and increasing in them and they are being prayed for so that they grow.

[Lovedtodeath]

Interesting point, Jean.

 

The argument is usually whether the sanctification is necessary for salvation or is the fruit of the salvation though, I think.

It is a moot point. If sanctification is a fruit of salvation then it is necessary... because if one does not have the fruit of salvation (sanctification) then it would logically follow that there was no salvation. The difference, I believe, is if sanctification is God's work or ours.

 

Acceptance of the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. The original ark was a historical necessity but was also a foreshadowing of the spiritual necessity and solution.

I don't want to pick on you Jean (the greatest love to you, my sister!) but I disagree. The thief on the cross next to Jesus did not know anything about the ransom sacrifice, yet he was saved. What was it that saved him?

[Jean in Newcastle]

It is a moot point. If sanctification is a fruit of salvation then it is necessary... because if one does not have the fruit of salvation (sanctification) then it would logically follow that there was no salvation. The difference, I believe, is if sanctification is God's work or ours.

 

I don't want to pick on you Jean (the greatest love to you, my sister!) but I disagree. The thief on the cross next to Jesus did not know anything about the ransom sacrifice, yet he was saved. What was it that saved him?

 

I think that the thief did know who Jesus was since Jesus and his message was fairly well known at that time. He knew enough to know that Jesus was righteous. He also knew that He was the Messiah and what the Messiah was supposed to do. In fact it is the other thief, who said "Are you not the Christ" so both of them were well aware of who He was and who He claimed to be. So I would say that he did understand that Jesus was the Messiah who was come to make atonement for the people. One thief believed that fact and one did not.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think that the thief did know who Jesus was since Jesus and his message was fairly well known at that time. He knew enough to know that Jesus was righteous. He also knew that He was the Messiah and what the Messiah was supposed to do. In fact it is the other thief, who said "Are you not the Christ" so both of them were well aware of who He was and who He claimed to be. So I would say that he did understand that Jesus was the Messiah who was come to make atonement for the people. One thief believed that fact and one did not.

Hmmm.... I don't think the apostles even knew that Jesus' death paid for their sins did they? They weren't expecting the whole of the events were they?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Hmmm.... I don't think the apostles even knew that Jesus' death paid for their sins did they? They weren't expecting the whole of the events were they?

 

I've been looking at the gospels with new eyes to look at what they did know. Read John chapter 1. John the Baptist tells his disciples in verse 29: "Behold the Lamb of God (referring to the Messiah as the fulfillment of the sacrificial lamb) who takes away the sin of the world." (Words in the parentheses are mine.) The very next day, John tells two of disciples that Jesus was the Lamb of God and they follow him. One of those men was Andrew. He went and told his brother Simon Peter, that "We have found the Messiah." So they clearly knew that He was the Messiah and what the Messiah was there to do but I don't think they really understood the resurrection as illustrated later after the crucifixion.

[silliness7]

Christ is the ark for the coming judgement.

[Lovedtodeath]

I've been looking at the gospels with new eyes to look at what they did know. Read John chapter 1. John the Baptist tells his disciples in verse 29: "Behold the Lamb of God

Yeah, I thought of that. I am wondering what the thief knew and, for example, the Roman army officer in Acts understood.

[silliness7]

Sorry I jumped in the middle before reading the whole thread. I'm only on page 6 but wanted to add that I do not see how the Church can be the ark. The Church is the bride. The bride is on the ark.

[milovany]

Sorry I jumped in the middle before reading the whole thread. I'm only on page 6 but wanted to add that I do not see how the Church can be the ark. The Church is the bride. The bride is on the ark.

 

But isn't Christ called a variety of things? He's a door, He's bread, He's a path, He's water, He's a word; different symbolism teaches different truths of the faith. Likewise, the Church can be both an ark of salvation (that which carries God's salvation to the people; it is Christ's body after all) and His bride (she who is united to Christ).

[silliness7]

But isn't Christ called a variety of things? He's a door, He's bread, He's a path, He's water, He's a word; different symbolism teaches different truths of the faith. Likewise, the Church can be both an ark of salvation (that which carries God's salvation to the people; it is Christ's body after all) and His bride (she who is united to Christ).

 

No one inside the ark drowned. No one inside Christ will perish. That cannot be said of the church. There are those in the Church who will perish. The church is not the ark. Maybe the church is the gangplank to the ark. But it's not the ark itself.

 

That's just how I see it. I could be wrong.

[8circles]

 

I think you are taking what is one metaphor for understanding what the Church is far too literally. The Church is an ark, it is a Body made up of organs, it is a Bride. It isn't some kind of live transportation vessel that is newly married. These are all ways of speaking about a reality th/QUOTE]

 

Im having trouble quoting you properly on my phone. Im responding to the whole paragraph above which I've mistakenly cut short.

 

I understand how analogy works. I don't understand how a comparison can be made to the ark without sharing any qualities with the ark. I don't see any description of the church which shares any qualities with the ark. The ark is not just a boat to carry itscargo from point a to b. Only people on the ark were saved and everyone on the ark was saved. If the church doesn't share those qualities with the ark then why use he ark as comparison? How are the ark and the church similar?

[8circles]

But isn't Christ called a variety of things? He's a door, He's bread, He's a path, He's water, He's a word; different symbolism teaches different truths of the faith. Likewise, the Church can be both an ark of salvation (that which carries God's salvation to the people; it is Christ's body after all) and His bride (she who is united to Christ).

 

How is "carrying Gods salvation to his people" like the ark except that a boat carries cargo? Why use the ark specifically? What are the characteristics of the church that make it like the ark as opposed to any other boat?

[Bambam]

Noah was saved because he obeyed God's instructions. God instructed him to build an ark with specific instructions. Noah did all that God commanded exactly. Genesis 7:5, Hebrews 11:7

 

Likewise, we are saved by obedience to God by grace through faith.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%206:16&version=KJV, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:21-27&version=KJV, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8&version=KJV, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2016:31&version=KJV

[milovany]

How is "carrying Gods salvation to his people" like the ark except that a boat carries cargo? Why use the ark specifically? What are the characteristics of the church that make it like the ark as opposed to any other boat?

 

I think it has to do with how the view of "salvation" differs a bit. We don't have the view that salvation = heaven when you die (I know it's not just the EO church that doesn't look at salvation this way). Salvation is becoming more like Christ (healed, united with Christ) in this life. So when the Orthodox say the Church is the "ark of salvation" we don't necessarily mean it's the vessel which carries us to heaven. It's more that it's something that help save us from temptations in THIS life that would impede our salvation -- just like Noah's ark saved some from that generation from what was going on in the world (it didn't take people to heaven). I think this is why the comparison is made to Noah's ark, but I'm not a theologian I admit.

 

Many, many Orthodox churches are designed architecturally to look like a boat inside (others, like a cross). When I'm inside the church, what's going on in the flood of the world outside doesn't threaten me (as much). I'm much less likely to be coveting the possessions of others, lying to someone or yelling at my kids -- the temptation to do these things is lessened greatly by being surrounded by others worshiping Him (both those in this world, and those who have gone before) in a place designed to give glory to God in every aspect of its being, including being led by a godly "captain" or shepherd who cares for my soul. The Bible calls the faithful of God to come out of the world and be the Church -- our "ark of salvation" provides the place to do that. Sure, we have to leave this building sometimes, but we can carry what we humanly can with us as we leave. The home is also like a church, we can set up a prayer area at home and participate in the prayers and life of the church there, too. God has given us things that can help us meet with Him to find our healing/wholeness (salvation) in Him.

Edited December 22, 2011 by milovaný

[milovany]

No one inside the ark drowned. No one inside Christ will perish. That cannot be said of the church. There are those in the Church who will perish. The church is not the ark. Maybe the church is the gangplank to the ark. But it's not the ark itself.

 

That's just how I see it. I could be wrong.

 

I believe we're looking at "salvation" differently. In the Orthodox church (and probably others, I'm just not familiar with them), salvation doesn't equal "not perishing" if you mean "going to heaven when you die." Salvation is for THIS life as much as the next, and it involves becoming united to Christ; it's a process. As I mentioned in the post to Allison, the Ark is a tool of salvation in THIS life -- it provides a place where we can "work out our salvation." And it certainly includes the gangplank -- I like bringing that into it, thank you. The gang plank, for us, would be baptism, which is part of the Ark but not the whole thing. I'm just trying to clarify the teachings of the Orthodox Church (and probably doing a poor job of it), not trying to judge the beliefs you hold or the beliefs of others.

[8circles]

I think it has to do with how the view of "salvation" differs a bit. We don't have the view that salvation = heaven when you die (I know it's not just the EO church that doesn't look at salvation this way). Salvation is becoming more like Christ (healed, united with Christ) in this life. So when the Orthodox say the Church is the "ark of salvation" we don't necessarily mean it's the vessel which carries us to heaven. It's more that it's something that help save us from temptations in THIS life that would impede our salvation -- just like Noah's ark saved some from that generation from what was going on in the world (it didn't take people to heaven). I think this is why the comparison is made to Noah's ark, but I'm not a theologian I admit.

 

Many, many Orthodox churches are designed architecturally to look like a boat inside (others, like a cross). When I'm inside the church, what's going on in the flood of the world outside doesn't threaten me (as much). I'm much less likely to be coveting the possessions of others, lying to someone or yelling at my kids -- the temptation to do these things is lessened greatly by being surrounded by others worshiping Him (both those in this world, and those who have gone before) in a place designed to give glory to God in every aspect of its being, including being led by a godly "captain" or shepherd who cares for my soul. The Bible calls the faithful of God to come out of the world and be the Church -- our "ark of salvation" provides the place to do that. Sure, we have to leave this building sometimes, but we can carry what we humanly can with us as we leave. The home is also like a church, we can set up a prayer area at home and participate in the prayers and life of the church there, too. God has given us things that can help us meet with Him to find our healing/wholeness (salvation) in Him.

 

I share your view of salvation. We'll have agree to disagree on the rest. All those things come from Christ, who is my captain.

[milovany]

I share your view of salvation. We'll have agree to disagree on the rest. All those things come from Christ, who is my captain.

 

In the Ark analogy (considering the different churches around the world), Christ is the commander of the fleet. :D I know we don't agree on some things, Allison, but I hope I haven't been unloving or condescending in any way because I truly don't feel that way.