Veganism -- why not?

[6packofun]

However, on a similar topic, it is true that the glycemic index of foods changes according to what other foods are eaten *with* them and that may be a factor for some people as well. So a high GI food can actually have a lower one if eaten with the right protein, etc. (Don't ask me what combos work and I don't know where to find that info, I have just seen this stated over and over when trying to disprove that one can eat mainly from a glycemic index point of view.) So I think that food combinations do matter at least a little. (Even from a vitamin and mineral absorption aspect, as well, which can be more important to vegans/vegetarians.)

[ktgrok]

I do, it means that most people in this nation can actually afford meat.

 

Compare the price of "free range X or organically fed Y" to the prices for "regular" meat, chicken or eggs, there are many in this nation who simply could not afford animal protein were it not for factory farming.

 

Of course some of the best meat is Bambi and that only costs a 45 cent bullet for a hundred lbs or so and Bambi IS free range.

 

Actually, if you look at the total cost of factory farming, in terms of health care for humans eating it, and environmental cleans up the tax payer bears the burden of, and the subsidies, it is about equal. Not to mention that conventional meat keeps going up, but grass fed is staying the same. I just priced out more meat locally and it will be the same or cheaper overall if I buy a 1/4 cow locally, that is grass fed and antibiotic free. Crazy.

[redsquirrel]

My reasoning is that it isn't a natural diet for a human. Go out in the woods or jungle and try to live as a vegan, without modern agriculture. You won't last long. Man is designed to eat meat products. The problem is that in our society our meats are raised on grains and toxins, and THAT is why meat seems to harm our health. Grassfed beef is an amazing source of omega 3 fatty acids, CLA, and other nutrients. But supermarket beef is a different thing entirely. Personally I was vegan for 2 years, and vegetarian for 10, and I'm much healthier eating a paleo/primal style diet. It is what we are evolved/designed to eat.

 

Well, we didn't evolve to eat coffee or chocolate either, but I am not giving those up! I would last longer as a vegan in the wild than I would without coffee and chocolate

[LaxMom]

My reasoning is that it isn't a natural diet for a human. Go out in the woods or jungle and try to live as a vegan, without modern agriculture. You won't last long. Man is designed to eat meat products. The problem is that in our society our meats are raised on grains and toxins, and THAT is why meat seems to harm our health. Grassfed beef is an amazing source of omega 3 fatty acids, CLA, and other nutrients. But supermarket beef is a different thing entirely. Personally I was vegan for 2 years, and vegetarian for 10, and I'm much healthier eating a paleo/primal style diet. It is what we are evolved/designed to eat.

 

This is a good point. Our digestive tracts - tooth to turd - are more closely aligned to other natural omnivores than grazers. We are not ruminants. We do not efficiently break down plant matter in our single stage stomach. If I start ruminating, I will need a gastroenterologist. Or a psychiatrist.

[pqr]

Actually, if you look at the total cost of factory farming, in terms of health care for humans eating it, and environmental cleans up the tax payer bears the burden of, and the subsidies, it is about equal. Not to mention that conventional meat keeps going up, but grass fed is staying the same. I just priced out more meat locally and it will be the same or cheaper overall if I buy a 1/4 cow locally, that is grass fed and antibiotic free. Crazy.

 

 

You have a point but:

 

1. Most of the costs you refer to are "hidden" costs or costs that are carried by taxpayers

2. Many people do not have room to store a 1/4 cow

3. In many suburban/urban areas it is rather hard to buy a 1/4 cow

 

 

Nevertheless if one can afford it grass fed meat is better, it also tastes better but the reality is that for most people factory animals are cheaper and therefore more accessible.

[ktgrok]

You have a point but:

 

1. Most of the costs you refer to are "hidden" costs or costs that are carried by taxpayers

2. Many people do not have room to store a 1/4 cow

3. In many suburban/urban areas it is rather hard to buy a 1/4 cow

 

 

Nevertheless if one can afford it grass fed meat is better, it also tastes better but the reality is that for most people factory animals are cheaper and therefore more accessible.

 

Oh, I agree it is cheaper and easier for most people, at least now. But if the government subsidized grass fed beef instead of sugar, it would be cheaper to buy the grass fed beef. And I actually do live in a suburb, and will have to drive to pick up the beef. I'm going to split is with at least one friend so we have room to store it.

[redsquirrel]

This is a good point. Our digestive tracts - tooth to turd - are more closely aligned to other natural omnivores than grazers. We are not ruminants. We do not efficiently break down plant matter in our single stage stomach. If I start ruminating, I will need a gastroenterologist. Or a psychiatrist.

 

Yes, we are absolutely designed to be omnivores. We can and do thrive on any number of diets. I have the privilege to make choices about what I eat and I exercise that choice.

 

it is not necessary to be a ruminants for us to digest plant matter. I am not eating grass, I am eating broccoli and rice and beans. There is a difference. If I did eat grass I might feel full but I would not extract any nutrition.

 

Now, a cow can't digest corn. That is the bigger problem in the American diet.

[ktgrok]

Yes, we are absolutely designed to be omnivores. We can and do thrive on any number of diets. I have the privilege to make choices about what I eat and I exercise that choice.

 

it is not necessary to be a ruminants for us to digest plant matter. I am not eating grass, I am eating broccoli and rice and beans. There is a difference. If I did eat grass I might feel full but I would not extract any nutrition.

 

Now, a cow can't digest corn. That is the bigger problem in the American diet.

 

Certainly, we have the ability to live on lots of things. If one has an ethical reason for being vegan it certainly is possible. I did it for years. And I still think there may be ethical reasons. However, the question was if it was the healthiest diet, and I don't think so, because I don't believe it is the fuel our bodies are designed to run on.

[LaxMom]

Yes, we are absolutely designed to be omnivores. We can and do thrive on any number of diets. I have the privilege to make choices about what I eat and I exercise that choice.

 

it is not necessary to be a ruminants for us to digest plant matter. I am not eating grass, I am eating broccoli and rice and beans. There is a difference. If I did eat grass I might feel full but I would not extract any nutrition.

 

Now, a cow can't digest corn. That is the bigger problem in the American diet.

 

Based strictly on personal observation, humans cannot digest corn either. Or maybe it reassembles itself on the way through... :blink:

 

Also based on observation, the ability to choose does not equate to making *good* choices.

[higginszoo]

But what would I put A-1 on?:D

 

It's really good on portabellos ... not that I'm about to give up the occasional steak personally, but they do make a nice change sometimes.

[redsquirrel]

Based strictly on personal observation, humans cannot digest corn either. Or maybe it reassembles itself on the way through... :blink:

 

Also based on observation, the ability to choose does not equate to making *good* choices.

 

You are right. That is a person observation. A very personal observation. :lol:

 

Maybe you just shouldn't eat corn? That can't be good.

[GailV]

Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon questions whether a vegan diet can be as healthy as a more varied diet. There would probably also be similiar information available from the Weston A. Price Foundation.

 

I seem to remember reading in one of those places that there have been no successful longterm vegan cultures/societies -- over time reproductive rates go down, not sustainable over generations, blah blah blah. But, hey, maybe I read that someplace else and decided it SOUNDED like something they'd say (sort of like Pottenger's cats, which I sort of recall them going on about).

 

Anyway, for me veganism doesn't work in the short term either. Been there, done that, didn't work, moved on to something else.

[LibraryLover]

Regarding the prices of meat (organic vs. factory). As an FYI, the government heavily subsidizes the production of factory meat, and actually "fines" organic producers with lots of additional fees. Part of the cost-disparity is due to government policies.

 

 

Now, now, don't become an activist. ;) Don't be mindful of the fact that libertarians and/or conservatives are taking action against the fact that our own government makes growing good food (to sell) so difficult. Don't talk about how that crosses political lines, or even that Republicans! ;) are taking back their rights/power. We shall have none of that!! :) There are those who want us to stay dumb, those who want us to not realize this crosses political lines over and over. There are those who want to make this a class warfare issue. Shocking, I know! :)

 

I buy the 'good' meat because if we pinch costs elsewhere, we can do it. I also buy in hope. As these thoughtful farmers are vulnerable to big agriculture and lobbyists, I *morally* need to support them. As I mentioned, even conservative and/or religious folks are fighting against factory farming. "Everything I Want To Do Is Illegal" was written by a such a man, Joe Salatin. http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Want-Do-Illegal-Stories/dp/0963810952 He knows we are supposed to be the stewards of the earth, not its rapists. www.polyfacefarms.com

 

So far, the market for healthier goods is only growing. :) I do what I can partly for political reasons. I don't shop this way with only my own family in mind. More farmers doing the right thing will help stablize cost. My organic free range eggs have been given to those folks who couldn't afford them otherwise. I sell some of my eggs, give away others. :) It's one of my callings.

Edited October 25, 2011 by LibraryLover

[12Stars]

We have been venturing into the GAPS diet for some time now, which has led me into discovering many foods and different diets.

I ran across critiques for this movie, personally I have not seen it.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/

 

and

http://foodfreedom.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/forks-over-knives-or-how-to-pretend-to-be-an-expose-documentary/

[mommymilkies]

My reasoning is that it isn't a natural diet for a human. Go out in the woods or jungle and try to live as a vegan, without modern agriculture. You won't last long. Man is designed to eat meat products. The problem is that in our society our meats are raised on grains and toxins, and THAT is why meat seems to harm our health. Grassfed beef is an amazing source of omega 3 fatty acids, CLA, and other nutrients. But supermarket beef is a different thing entirely. Personally I was vegan for 2 years, and vegetarian for 10, and I'm much healthier eating a paleo/primal style diet. It is what we are evolved/designed to eat.

 

I agree. I have been vegan or vegetarian a good part of my life. I do best on a mostly pescetarian (and occasionally eating other meat) diet. I actually don't like meat all that much, but I eat it when it sounds good or is convenient. I do not believe a vegan diet is nutritionally adequate for most people, and it's certainly not what our bodies are designed for. But if it works for you, then that is fine with me. ;) My oldest dd is a vegetarian. We eat very healthy around here-almost never any "junk". and even eating a very well balanced diet, she had major angular chelitis issues from vitamin deficiencies. Add in joint pain and I gave her an ultimatum-eat meat or fish or I'll sneak it in. It was hurting her, physically, so it was no longer ok with me. She was ok with fish, so she is now pescatarian. Her AC went away and the joint pain is going away slowly. That definitely raised my red flags.

[LibraryLover]

BTW-- I am supportive of vegan friends, or friends who try veganism, or are part- time (summer) vegans. Everyone has the right to find the way of eating that makes sense for their own lives, their own climates, and their own bodies. Rock on. :) If you visit me, I will happily whip up green smoothies in my VitaMix for us! :)

Edited October 25, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Soror]

I don't think it is a healthy diet.

[LibraryLover]

I seem to remember reading in one of those places that there have been no successful longterm vegan cultures/societies -- over time reproductive rates go down, not sustainable over generations, blah blah blah. But, hey, maybe I read that someplace else and decided it SOUNDED like something they'd say (sort of like Pottenger's cats, which I sort of recall them going on about).

 

Anyway, for me veganism doesn't work in the short term either. Been there, done that, didn't work, moved on to something else.

 

So far, there is no research to support that there has ever been, historically, a vegan culture, anywhere, ever, in the world. I don't mean 10,000 people in Northern CA, or a commune in Maine or PA or Hawaii. I am thinking historically. Paleolithic sites have unearthed sharp tools and cave wall records/art depicting humans hunting. More 'modern' excavations of Noth American Native areas find piles and piles of clam and muscle etc shells. Neolithics got tired and hungry (as they decimated local food sites) and so domesticated animals.

 

We know ancient Assyrians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romams etc etc etc , ate land meat, enjoyed honey, fish, and drank animal milk.

 

On what would one base historical veganism? I ask this as a person not in anyway opposed to veganism.

Edited October 25, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Rosie_0801]

On what would one base historical veganism? I ask this as a person not in anyway opposed to veganism.

 

I've never heard anyone use historical veganism as a pro-vegan argument, only anti-vegan. One could make a case for a very limited use of animal foods. The Jains, perhaps? They did well enough on a vegan diet until sanitation dealt with the B12 containing creepy crawlies in the rice supplies.

 

Rosie

[Aquinas Academy]

My two sons and I are vegetarians, we just can't seem to make that final leap to become vegans.

 

We don't eat many eggs but do eat cheese. We'd really miss cheese.

Me too. I actually was vegan for a while, but missed cheese too much. ;)

[kim.4dogs]

I recently watched Forks Over Knives which promotes a plant-based, whole foods diet.

 

Naturally, the film focuses on the benefits of a vegan diet; there seem to be plenty of benefits. The people in the film had terrific health improvements when they cut out meat and dairy. No drawbacks are mentioned.

 

So, I wonder what the folks on this forum have to say about veganism. Why not be a vegan?

 

I also watched this movie, after I read the book "The China Study". I've been eating a plant-based diet since then (about a month and a half or so). I hesitate to call myself "vegan", however. While at home, we eat vegan. If I'm out, I do the best I can and figure what I miss falls into the "5% animal protein" category. I feel great. If you haven't read the book, I'd recommend it. I thought it was a lot more convincing then just the documentary.

[LibraryLover]

I've never heard anyone use historical veganism as a pro-vegan argument, only anti-vegan. One could make a case for a very limited use of animal foods. The Jains, perhaps? They did well enough on a vegan diet until sanitation dealt with the B12 containing creepy crawlies in the rice supplies.

 

Rosie

 

Vegetarianism, yes, a possibility even in the beginning, given the climate of the Indus Valley. Veganism, I see no evidence of that.

 

I am not arguing against food choices. I was vegetarian, marcobiotic, vegan...I spent a couple of decades, on both coasts of the US, with 'searchers'. :) I really do not have a dog in this fight, other than my current climate and local food leanings (smaller carbon footprint and all).

Edited October 25, 2011 by LibraryLover

[silliness7]

Because animals are tasty.

 

:lol::lol:

[LibraryLover]

I also watched this movie, after I read the book "The China Study". I've been eating a plant-based diet since then (about a month and a half or so). I hesitate to call myself "vegan", however. While at home, we eat vegan. If I'm out, I do the best I can and figure what I miss falls into the "5% animal protein" category. I feel great. If you haven't read the book, I'd recommend it. I thought it was a lot more convincing then just the documentary.

 

 

OK. The China Study. China is hardly a vegetarian culture (even amongst the poorest), never mind vegan, and certainly a traditional Chinese diet is not vegan or even vegetarian. So many of our heirloom/dual breed chickens originated in China and other parts of Asia, just as one very simple example. Fish and other meat broths are common and daily fare. I don't get how the author made the leap to no flesh or eggs at all, when none of the people studied were vegans. Sure, yes, those folks eat far less beef than a typical westerner, no doubt. Beef is costly. But those studied were not vegans. Eating a low meat diet doesn't make a no meat diet better/optimal. Some small amounts of eggs/flesh may well meet important dietary needs, especially for those in areas where there is winter. Anchovies might contribute to good health. :) The study did not study vegans. I feel so guilty saying that.

Edited October 25, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Rosie_0801]

Vegetarianism, yes, a possibility even in the beginning, given the climate of the Indus Valley. Veganism, I see no evidence of that.

 

Ah yes, now I read the wiki article I see they are traditionally vegetarian with a few other interesting food laws.

 

Oh, The China Study. China is hardly a vegetarian culture (even among the poorest), never mind vegan, and certainly a traditional Chinese diet is not. So many of our heirloom/dual chickens originated in China and other parts of Asia, just as one very simple example. Fish and other meat broths are common and daily fare. I don't get how the author made the leap to no flesh at all, when none of the people studied were vegans. Sure, yes, they ate far less flesh than a typical western diet, no doubt. But those studied were not vegans. Having a low meat diet doesn't mean a no meat diet is optimal. Some flesh may well meet important dietary needs, especially for those in areas where there is winter. Anchovies might well contribute to good health. :) The study did not study vegans. I feel so guilty saying that.

 

Huh? What are you feeling guilty about?

 

I'm pretty sure he says in the book that there is no health difference between vegan and very low animal product consumption, but the book is certainly not free of flaws!

 

The major thing I took away was the idea that what we might consider a low animal product diet might still be high in the general scheme of things. Like that nurses study mentioned where they were comparing fat intake. Was it the nurses study? I can't remember properly because I read it a few years ago, but the study I'm thinking of wasn't really low v high fat, as they said they were testing, but high v higher fat. It was a bit like concluding that ice cream isn't bad for you because there was no difference in health between people eating half a tub per day and those eating a whole tub.

 

Oh, and the other thing was how many Western parents would rest easier if it were common for their daughters not to reach menarche until age 20. :lol:

 

Rosie

[LibraryLover]

Ah yes, now I read the wiki article I see they are traditionally vegetarian with a few other interesting food laws.

 

 

 

Huh? What are you feeling guilty about?

 

I'm pretty sure he says in the book that there is no health difference between vegan and very low animal product consumption, but the book is certainly not free of flaws!

 

The major thing I took away was the idea that what we might consider a low animal product diet might still be high in the general scheme of things,

Like that nurses study mentioned where they were comparing fat intake. Was it the nurses study? I can't remember properly because I read it a few years ago, but the study I'm thinking of wasn't really low v high fat, as they said they were testing, but high v higher fat. It was a bit like concluding that ice cream isn't bad for you because there was no difference in health between people eating half a tub per day and those eating a whole tub.

 

Oh, and the other thing was how many Western parents would rest easier if it were common for their daughters not to reach menarche until age 20. :lol:

 

Rosie

 

 

Because some of the nicest folks I know have been vegan. (I do know a couple decade -old vegans, especially freinds who remain on the West Cost of the US). The author of The China Study recommends a 100% vegan diet, and I've seen vegans go a bit wonky when it's mentioned he didn't study vegans. The author decided that since a low meat diet was good, a no meat diet is better. He doesn't take into account how certain foods (even animal foods) might have contributed to the better health of the Chinese studied (mostly rural folks). He is a vegan because of the study, even as the study didn't study vegans. :)

 

The Framingham Nurses Study done in Massachusetts is something entriely different. Some decent info, but the data collection was entirely imperfect. It was all self reported.

Edited October 25, 2011 by LibraryLover

[msjones]

OK. The China Study. China is hardly a vegetarian culture (even amongst the poorest), never mind vegan, and certainly a traditional Chinese diet is not vegan or even vegetarian. So many of our heirloom/dual breed chickens originated in China and other parts of Asia, just as one very simple example. Fish and other meat broths are common and daily fare. I don't get how the author made the leap to no flesh or eggs at all, when none of the people studied were vegans. Sure, yes, those folks eat far less beef than a typical westerner, no doubt. Beef is costly. But those studied were not vegans. Eating a low meat diet doesn't make a no meat diet better/optimal. Some small amounts of eggs/flesh may well meet important dietary needs, especially for those in areas where there is winter. Anchovies might contribute to good health. :) The study did not study vegans. I feel so guilty saying that.

 

I don't think he made that leap. I think I made it by using the term 'vegan' when the Forks Over Knives film actually uses the term "plant-based, whole foods diet." I believe (but don't quote me) that the China Study referred to groups with less emphasis on meat and dairy in their diets -- not groups of vegans or even vegetarians.

 

So, that was me inadvertently misrepresenting the film in my posts. I believe I may have derailed the discussion before it even began. Oops.

[Rosie_0801]

He is a vegan because of the study, even as the study didn't study vegans. :)

 

And his parents run a cattle ranch. I'm sure they're so proud of their boy. :lol:

 

The Framingham Nurses Study done in Massachusetts is something entriely different. Some decent info, but the data collection was entirely imperfect. It was all self reported.

Ah, that's the one. He mentioned it in the China study book though. That's why they are linked in my brain.

 

I'm only a mostly vegan. It's something to aim for but not quite achieve. :tongue_smilie: I keep the balance I'm trying to keep by thinking of animal products as junk food.

 

Rosie

[LibraryLover]

I don't think he made that leap. I think I made it by using the term 'vegan' when the Forks Over Knives film actually uses the term "plant-based, whole foods diet." I believe (but don't quote me) that the China Study referred to groups with less emphasis on meat and dairy in their diets -- not groups of vegans or even vegetarians.

 

So, that was me inadvertently misrepresenting the film in my posts. I believe I may have derailed the discussion before it even began. Oops.

 

No worries. This not a new conversation to me.

 

It wasn't you who made me post about it. There are many folks who don't understand his leap to veganism as optimal from a study where vegans were not studied.

 

If you feel good without animal products of any kind, that is wonderful. Everyone has their own food needs. Most of us here are not the least bit dependent on climate or location for our food. We can walk into any US market and get whatever it is we want. A western vegan needs protein, we buy almonds etc.

 

:) We benefit greatly from our amazing abundance. We don't need to boil up chicken feet or fish bones for protein broths in February, say, to go with our stored rice.

Edited October 25, 2011 by LibraryLover

[CountryGirlShake]

Because animals are tasty.

 

Only with BBQ sauce. Do you eat animals with no flavorings? you may change your mind....

[kitten18]

Only with BBQ sauce. Do you eat animals with no flavorings? you may change your mind....

:confused: Huh? We frequently eat meat with nothing more than a dash of salt and pepper (I also use salt and pepper on most cooked vegetables). It is quite delicious.

[Rosie_0801]

There are many folks who don't understand his leap to veganism as optimal from a study where vegans were not studied.

 

Many think that means there is no good reason why they should lower their animal product intake significantly either.

 

Anyhow. I wonder why I'm making for dinner.

 

Rosie

[mazakaal]

I've never seen the program, but I've always doubted the healthiness of a vegan diet. I know three vegans, two are overweight (more than just 10lbs) and the other is completely emaciated. I can't imagine either are very healthy. I could see myself becoming a vegetarian if I only had to cook for myself and had enough money to buy really good fruit and veg, but I don't see how someone could get all the nutrients they need without any animal products at all.

[pqr]

Only with BBQ sauce. Do you eat animals with no flavorings? you may change your mind....

 

 

No, no I won't.

 

I frequently eat meat especially game without flavorings.

 

There is little better than a thick steak, just pink on the inside and BBQ source on that would be an outrage.

[GailV]

Only with BBQ sauce. Do you eat animals with no flavorings? you may change your mind....

 

Dh reacts to any flavorings -- herbs, BBQ sauce, whatever -- beyond a bit of salt. So we eat animals with no flavorings all the time. No issue.

[Catherine]

I don't claim, nor does anyone as far as I know, to understand fully the connection between a meat-based diet and diabetes. But it's not as simple as carbs=insulin resistance. Type two diabetes is directly related to obesity though.

 

An anecdote: my father is a type 1 diabetic. He's been insulin-dependent for 35 years now and has yet to have a complication. Three years ago his endocrinologist encouraged him to do a trial of a vegan diet. He's always been a total meat and potatoes kind of guy, but he did it. He dropped his daily insulin requirement by more than half. He lost 25 pounds. He felt wonderful, the best he's felt in years. He also observed that he no longer had the spikes in blood sugar caused by carb consumption that he'd had before. A glass of apple cider did *not* cause the same kind of hyperglycemia it had before.

 

That seems counterintuitive, but clearly, in his case, animal protein and fat were strong contributors to insulin resistance. By changing his diet, he conquered the insulin resistance and was returned to the state of absolute insulin requirement (as he makes none of his own) that he was in when he first became diabetic.

[ktgrok]

This is a great critique of the China Study, and the findings are surprising. http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

[ktgrok]

I don't claim, nor does anyone as far as I know, to understand fully the connection between a meat-based diet and diabetes. But it's not as simple as carbs=insulin resistance. Type two diabetes is directly related to obesity though.

 

An anecdote: my father is a type 1 diabetic. He's been insulin-dependent for 35 years now and has yet to have a complication. Three years ago his endocrinologist encouraged him to do a trial of a vegan diet. He's always been a total meat and potatoes kind of guy, but he did it. He dropped his daily insulin requirement by more than half. He lost 25 pounds. He felt wonderful, the best he's felt in years. He also observed that he no longer had the spikes in blood sugar caused by carb consumption that he'd had before. A glass of apple cider did *not* cause the same kind of hyperglycemia it had before.

 

That seems counterintuitive, but clearly, in his case, animal protein and fat were strong contributors to insulin resistance. By changing his diet, he conquered the insulin resistance and was returned to the state of absolute insulin requirement (as he makes none of his own) that he was in when he

first became diabetic.

 

Too much protein CAN be converted to glucose by the body, so that could have been the issue. or, even more likely, did his fiber intake go up a lot when he switched diets? And of course, whenever you lose weight your insulin needs will drop, although obviously not that dramatically.

[GailV]

I don't claim, nor does anyone as far as I know, to understand fully the connection between a meat-based diet and diabetes. But it's not as simple as carbs=insulin resistance. Type two diabetes is directly related to obesity though.

 

An anecdote: my father is a type 1 diabetic. He's been insulin-dependent for 35 years now and has yet to have a complication. Three years ago his endocrinologist encouraged him to do a trial of a vegan diet. He's always been a total meat and potatoes kind of guy, but he did it. He dropped his daily insulin requirement by more than half. He lost 25 pounds. He felt wonderful, the best he's felt in years. He also observed that he no longer had the spikes in blood sugar caused by carb consumption that he'd had before. A glass of apple cider did *not* cause the same kind of hyperglycemia it had before.

 

That seems counterintuitive, but clearly, in his case, animal protein and fat were strong contributors to insulin resistance. By changing his diet, he conquered the insulin resistance and was returned to the state of absolute insulin requirement (as he makes none of his own) that he was in when he first became diabetic.

 

But a significant change of diet, dropping a major nutrition source, can trigger greater adrenal and/or cortisol output, which can give the appearance of better health (a bit like a make-your-own-steroids situation). Over time, though, the adrenals wear out, and stop their high output.

 

I'm not saying that's what happened here -- I've absolutely no clue if adrenaline and cortisol have any effect on insulin whatsoever (although it seems like they would all interrelate somehow). I DO know that a major change in diet of any type will temporarily clear up allergy symptoms for the above reason; the benefits will likely start to wane as the years progress, though, and the body uses up its supply of the hormones. So I always am a bit skeptical of these stories, wondering what's really going on in the body.

[Teachin'Mine]

Apparently that has been disproven. As long as the necessary ingredients are being eaten, our bodies can scrounge together what they need. They don't have to be eaten in the same meal.

 

 

 

That's why I was talking about our requirements changing. What you can manage when you have teenagers in the house and what you can manage when you have tots and only get one good night of sleep per month is quite different. I eat less when I'm allowed to sleep. :glare:

 

 

 

I question some of Sally Fallon's ideas because I can't figure out her footnotes. I seem to have packed my book away somewhere, but if anyone has theirs handy, she uses something short, three capital letters, I think, in a lot of the side boxes. Does anyone know what that is?

 

 

 

Keep reading. Vegans don't have to be high carb. There's grain free vegans out there too :rofl:

 

Rosie

 

TVP? Texturized vegetable protein - soy based.

[TravelingChris]

I totally agree with Rosie's statement about how our bodies differ and need different things. I know that my dd who did have anemia was wanting more meat before she was diagnosed. She also turned out to have a type of hypotension. I thought it was just her preference to put salt on so many things. It turned out that she needs to salt things much more than regular people or she passes out.

 

My other daughter had juvenile ideopathic osteoporosis. All the doctors we saw recommended drinking milk and in addition adding supplemental calcium and vit d.

 

In my case, deficiency of vit B12, I could eat a balanced diet and take my supplement and do okay or if I became vegan, I would have to take a lot more supplements and still might not be okay. B12 is only found in animal products.

[Wabi Sabi]

Why not? For me it's because I wouldn't be happy having such a restricted diet. All that glorious cheese out there, yogurt, cream in my coffee, fresh eggs from our hens, a good steak a couple times a year...it would be a shame for all of those things to be totally off-limits.

 

I can, however, see value in consuming less meat and dairy while eating more vegetables but I could just never stick to an all or nothing kind of deal.

[Bluegoat]

I also watched this movie, after I read the book "The China Study". I've been eating a plant-based diet since then (about a month and a half or so). I hesitate to call myself "vegan", however. While at home, we eat vegan. If I'm out, I do the best I can and figure what I miss falls into the "5% animal protein" category. I feel great. If you haven't read the book, I'd recommend it. I thought it was a lot more convincing then just the documentary.

 

If you look at the link to critical reviews, the first one, given on the last page of responses, it addresses this study. It doesn't sound to me like it is actually very supportive of veganism at all.

 

Here it is.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Bluegoat

[Jenny in Florida]

Anemia, for one. One dd has had problems with that. I have B12 deficiency so that is another reason not to be vegan. Then all of us need calcium which we get a lot from dairy products.

 

While I could potentially see some health benefits for vegetarianism (though not for that one dd nor me), I can't see any health benefits to veganism. It doesn't seem to be based on health but rather on a strange philosophy. I see no reason why dairy and eggs can;t be consumed since they don't kill any animals.

 

For what it's worth, and I do realize this is my own personal experience, although I was rejected to give blood a couple of times when I first went vegetarian due to anemia, I've had no health problems of any kind since going vegan. We get plenty of iron and calcium from vegan sources.

 

As far as eggs and dairy, please go read up on contemporary farming practices. It will be very clear why some people do not want to support that kind of cruelty.

[Tammyla]

:lol:Snort... I'm not a meat lover, but dairy is my thing.

 

Because animals are tasty.

[Jenny in Florida]

Okay, honestly, I don't know why I opened this thread. I tried to resist, but curiosity got the better of me. I really should have known better.

 

It's expensive & much more time- and ingredient-intensive to prepare, in general. There are some quick/cheap vegan meals, but not enough!

 

Also, food allergies. No nuts here.

 

As others have already mentioned, no, being vegan does not have to be more expensive. There are plenty of easy, quick, inexpensive vegan meals to make. I make at least a few of them every week.

 

If anyone is genuinely interested in hearing more, please PM me. I'm hoping to talk myself out of coming back here to read more.

 

It's true that a vegan diet should be varied in order to include all the amino acids, but there is nothing special about eating foods at the same meal to make "complete proteins." Your body will use what you eat, whenever you eat it. :001_smile:

 

Apparently that has been disproven. As long as the necessary ingredients are being eaten, our bodies can scrounge together what they need. They don't have to be eaten in the same meal

 

Yes, the idea that one had to plan meals to combine proteins is quite old. Even Frances Moore Lappe, the woman who popularized that idea is Diet for a Small Planet, has said she was wrong. As long as you are eating a nice variety of foods, your body is perfectly capable of assembling what it needs.

 

Keep reading. Vegans don't have to be high carb. There's grain free vegans out there too

 

Absolutely. While I will admit to loving carbs, I've reduced the number I eat quite a bit in the last few years. While I was doing Spark People, I ate what we came to call the protein and produce diet. Essentially, most of my meals were made up of some kind of concentrated protein (beans, nuts, etc.), a small amount of grain (rice, bread) and lots of fruits and veggies. I tend not to eat too many "exotic" foods. So, meal prep was simple. I lost weight, felt wonderful and was rarely hungry.

 

I suppose it's not necessarily more expensive, but if you google vegan recipes, you get a long list of recipes with things that I would have to go & buy that I have never heard of or used before--a quick search brought up arrowroot, tamarind, agave, tempeh, nutritional yeast (although I do own that now), vital wheat gluten, ground cashews, sunflower oil, pepitas, fava beans, tamari, and so forth. In browsing several of the "top" sites Google gave me for that list, I only found two recipes that contained entirely ingredients I know how to use, lol.

 

You're looking at the wrong recipes.

 

I rarely use any specialty items beyond soy milk and dairy-free margarine. I've never had nutritional yeast in the house, because I think it's nasty.

 

I've never understood why "vegan" has to mean "weird," and that's not how we eat here. I make vegan meals every day and every week with very normal, inexpensive ingredients. Again, anyone who really wants more information (and doesn't just want to argue about it), is welcome to PM me.

 

All vegans I've ever known have been classic pitta types: thin, angular, dry, poor color, high strung. Not saying there is a causal relationship, but it is a common enough pairing for me to notice a pattern.

 

Want to come over for dinner? I am none of the things you mention.

 

Sigh. Yep, I really shouldn't have started reading.

[Jenny in Florida]

B12 is only found in animal products.

 

First, the actual requirement for B12 is really tiny.

 

Second, it's not true that it's found only in animal products. There are vegetarian sources of B12, including nurtitional yeast.

 

We get ours in fortified soy milk.

[Joker]

For what it's worth, and I do realize this is my own personal experience, although I was rejected to give blood a couple of times when I first went vegetarian due to anemia, I've had no health problems of any kind since going vegan. We get plenty of iron and calcium from vegan sources.

 

As far as eggs and dairy, please go read up on contemporary farming practices. It will be very clear why some people do not want to support that kind of cruelty.

 

Have you ever had trouble with your B12, though? I didn't know I did until I went vegetarian and became really sick. My levels were seriously low and at first I needed shots. I felt so much better when I added meat back into my diet and only take a small amount of supplements now to maintain. I found out my sis and mom also have B12 issues so it's a family thing I guess. I don't think there is one diet that is good for everyone.

[AnnaM]

Eek I am almost afraid to post this, but I love her site and she does alot of great research on this sort of topic. I want to say two things though before I duck and run for cover. I do support a healthy plant based diet with good quality grassfed, organic meats. I believe their are healthy animal fats that are vital and the expense now saves us expense later when other mass produced meats start making you sick. Second, I have read this article and since I have not considered a vegan diet I do not know much of the research behind it. I am simply throwing it out there for those who might be considering. If I was considering veganism I would be researching both sides to be sure.

 

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/2011/10/warning-raw-veganism-will-steal-your-health/

[Jenny in Florida]

Have you ever had trouble with your B12, though?

 

No. Never.

 

I've been vegetarian for over 25 years and vegan for about 14. I drink smoothies made with fortified protein powder once a week or so, and I bake with fortified soy milk. (The kids drink it, but I'm not a fan of drinking it straight.)