While Teachers Take Pay Cuts

[8circles]

If it were up to me, I'd scrap the whole thing. Parents would suddenly HAVE to parent. It might even help improve the economy if 50% of the workforce suddenly had to stay home w/ their kids.

 

Yes, it was meant somewhat tongue in cheek and somewhat serious.

 

It isn't because I am a homeschooler, it is more because I worked in the deep inner-city.

 

Now, if we are talking about my current local high school down the street, then yes, parents need to actually parent more.

 

Dawn

 

Just because I'm like that... I wanted to clarify that I was guessing that Pencil Pusher's comment was tongue-in-cheek.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

KCMO had massive teacher lay offs.

 

Asking because I haven't followed the sitation in KCMO, but were dismissals based on seniority or on performance or on a combination (example, too many teachers in one subject so there were more layoffs in that specialty and none in high demand specialties)?

 

With a few exceptions, military cutbacks are based on voluntary early retirements, high year tenure (ie, if you are a lower rank with lots of years of service - meaning you've failed to advance in rate - you can be forced out), and cutting people who have failed to be recommended for promotion/retention or who have failed the physical readiness requirements. Usually it is only after this that people are simply given pink slips (and that depends on the branch of service as well. The Army was harsher back in the 1990s than the Navy was, but they were also cutting deeper.) The point is that the military tries to retain the best performers and dismiss those who have failed some assessment of ability. Not a perfect system by any means. But not one based only on seniority.

[DawnM]

Hey, I am just saying that I would have gotten in trouble if I had been "that honest" with a parent and a student.

 

I would not choose to have worded it that way directly to a student.

 

Dawn

 

It might be an oversimplification, but I hear it often enough. There is NO teaching-homeschooling or public, that is beyond honest criticism. We are doing a grave disservice to our children if we think otherwise.

 

And, that 50%--it's a Luddite concept nowadays, but I can't say I disagree with you. I've thought it often.

 

Unfortunately, I think we have a generation of parents who have no idea HOW to parent. It seems to be a skill that's been lost. And, I hold myself just as accountable, I've spent the last 21 years learning how to parent, as in the basics.

 

 

 

 

None of what the one teacher said was bashing. :confused: She honestly told my Dd that she would learn nothing. I'm from Jersey,

[DawnM]

OH!

 

(in my best Gilda Radner) NEVER MIND.

 

Dawn

 

Just because I'm like that... I wanted to clarify that I was guessing that Pencil Pusher's comment was tongue-in-cheek.

[8circles]

OH!

 

(in my best Gilda Radner) NEVER MIND.

 

Dawn

 

:lol:

[angela in ohio]

I saw the news last night. They mentioned the numbers of teachers who have been laid off nationwide. It was staggering. I can't remember the exact number as I was distracted while listening, but it was high.

 

My guess is that 100% of them were last hired, first fired and not the bad teachers.

 

The problem with "just fire the bad teachers" though is the definition of a a bad teacher. It can't all be tied to test scores. There has to be a better evaluative measure.

 

 

Dawn

 

Yes, dh was beside himself having to lay off the new people, some of them much better at their jobs.

 

There is already a system of evaluation in place. Dh makes yearly evaluations of all employees. It wouldn't have to be tied to only test scores. It could be like... oh... almost every other job in the nation :D... where people are evaluated for their performance by their supervisor and their pay and ability to remain employed is based on that.

[angela in ohio]

Asking because I haven't followed the sitation in KCMO, but were dismissals based on seniority or on performance or on a combination (example, too many teachers in one subject so there were more layoffs in that specialty and none in high demand specialties)?

 

With a few exceptions, military cutbacks are based on voluntary early retirements, high year tenure (ie, if you are a lower rank with lots of years of service - meaning you've failed to advance in rate - you can be forced out), and cutting people who have failed to be recommended for promotion/retention or who have failed the physical readiness requirements. Usually it is only after this that people are simply given pink slips (and that depends on the branch of service as well. The Army was harsher back in the 1990s than the Navy was, but they were also cutting deeper.) The point is that the military tries to retain the best performers and dismiss those who have failed some assessment of ability. Not a perfect system by any means. But not one based only on seniority.

 

Under most union contracts, layoffs happen entirely by seniority. To do anything else, we'd first have to admit that some teachers are better than others. ;)

[goldberry]

Is this a new board rule? Because if it is, I should be able to breeze through the new board in just a few minutes a day?

 

Generalizations, oversimplification and robust expression of opinion have been no stranger to the general board for the last several years. Did I miss some radical change?

 

Of course education is something that everyone has an opinion about. Because we all have first hand experience, as a student, and sometimes as a parent. Certainly as a taxpayer.

 

If it's ok to point out that some homeschoolers need to up their game and make sure they are educating their kids well (as several threads in the last few months have pointed out), then why is it off limits to say that the system of education in the US is broken and there is plenty of "blame" to go around (petty bureauracies, superintendents who aren't worth their pay, unions that prioritize the union over individual teachers and students, teachers who are just collecting a paycheck, students who don't give a darn about their education, families who don't give a darn about their kids, neighborhoods that are falling apart at the seams, etc).

 

I'm not a fan of the results of NCLB. But I also try to keep in mind that it was a bipartisan attempt to fix a system that was already failing to educate a lot of students.

 

I have a master's in education, but no classroom teaching experience. Some of the situations in which teachers are trying to educate are miserable. Many of the families want a school to achieve what they are unwilling to put forth effort for. On the other hand, there are plenty of teachers (my fellow students in the masters program) who aren't the cream of the crop and who occasionally stunned me with their lack of reading and writing ability and lack of intellectual curiosity.

 

Every business has high achievers and low achievers. But somehow it is beyond the pale to say that there are teachers who don't represent value beyond that of a babysitter. I don't get that. In the military (my employer for 17 years) there was rigorous annual evaluations (twice a year for newer/junior ranks) and exams and/or boards to determine if you would move up in rank (and pay). In some ranks and specialties, failure to be selected for promotion meant automatic dismissal. Yet in some school districts, a principal cannot observe a classroom teacher without advance permission from the teacher.

 

Do I think that teachers are single handedly ruining a generation of cherubic pupils? Of course not. But I do think that there are teachers who aren't doing a particular service to their students either.

 

Now, see, I don't find YOUR comment a broad generalization. I have no problem with anyone commenting on the way that some teachers are contributing to the problem. I just don't think demonizing all teachers, or holding them accountable for parts of the problem that are not within their control contributes anything meaningful to the discussion.

 

I personally think tenure is a ridiculous. As are "contracts" for supers or others. If ANYONE isn't doing their job, they should be able to be fired.

 

But as one PP pointed out, part of the problem is defining "doing the job". If test scores were the only answer, I don't believe that is fair. If as a homeschool mom, you had one kid special needs and one kid genius-level IQ, would it be fair to evaluate your performance by testing both kids the same level? And teachers have even less control over a myriad other factors than you do in your own home.

 

Ultimately, the system is so broken, that there is almost no point in trying to address any one aspect of the system, since all individual aspects are affected by the brokenness of the whole. I feel sorry for anyone who is honestly trying to fix things. IMHO, the only real answer is to scrap and start from scratch.

[DawnM]

Honestly, I was a much better teacher when I was new. I put my heart and soul into it and was young enough to have the energy to do it~! :tongue_smilie:

 

I still had stellar reviews/evaluations, even 15 years later, but I didn't personally feel that I put as much into it. I couldn't. I then had my own family to go home to.

 

Dawn

 

 

Yes, dh was beside himself having to lay off the new people, some of them much better at their jobs.

 

There is already a system of evaluation in place. Dh makes yearly evaluations of all employees. It wouldn't have to be tied to only test scores. It could be like... oh... almost every other job in the nation :D... where people are evaluated for their performance by their supervisor and their pay and ability to remain employed is based on that.

[justamouse]

Ultimately, the system is so broken, that there is almost no point in trying to address any one aspect of the system, since all individual aspects are affected by the brokenness of the whole. I feel sorry for anyone who is honestly trying to fix things. IMHO, the only real answer is to scrap and start from scratch.

 

I often think the same, but the problem with that (as appealing as it is) is who teaches the children while we scrap it and are sitting at the drawing board?

 

In NJ, charters are exploding. It's a glorious thing. Now, I'd like to see some vouchers. That way I can vote with my wallet (and choose to send my child to a parochial school if I want).

[Sebastian (a lady)]

No, didn't say it would be a secret. If "EVERYONE KNOWS IT" I wouldn't have to say a word other than to suggest a different class/teacher.

 

I would just make sure said student didn't end up in his class. But the problem (as a school counselor making the schedules) is that SOMEONE has to end up there. Dawn

 

PS: Adding in that I would actually get in trouble for saying to a parent what that teacher did. So, maybe I am taking that angle as well.

 

The bolded is the part of the system that I object to. Why does any student need to end up in the classroom of a teacher known to be a poor teacher?

[justamouse]

No, didn't say it would be a secret. If "EVERYONE KNOWS IT" I wouldn't have to say a word other than to suggest a different class/teacher.

 

I would just make sure said student didn't end up in his class. But the problem (as a school counselor making the schedules) is that SOMEONE has to end up there.

 

Dawn

 

PS: Adding in that I would actually get in trouble for saying to a parent what that teacher did. So, maybe I am taking that angle as well.

 

I cannot stand the guidance counselor of my daughter, union toadie that he is, and I refuse to talk to him. I go straight to the vice principal. Why? Because he tried to put her in all the worst classes, because she was a 'homeschooler'.

[DawnM]

True, but as a counselor, I had no choice in the matter.

 

Dawn

 

The bolded is the part of the system that I object to. Why does any student need to end up in the classroom of a teacher known to be a poor teacher?

[Aubrey]

It's common for teachers to blame something like this on the administration not caring, but the fact is that there are laws about how long you can suspend a student and which kiddos can be suspended. It is not the administration turning their backs, their hands are often tied by threats of lawsuits, laws, etc.

 

I don't know--I had a fb player shove me the 1st day of school, & the only thing the admin did was ask ME if I'd touched HIM. (I'm 5'3".)

 

Later, another fb player shoved a student so hard, student fell into me, I fell into a locked bookcase, & the bookcase hit the ground. Based on that, fb player's mom opened an investigation on me, because I might be racist. My eval was docked because of the event. But the next 2 teachers who had fb player? Ended up in the hospital & bruised.

 

Admin didn't listen to me because I was a 1st year teacher. Fwiw, though, I *did* graduate w/ 10 yrs experience (college level, mostly), a master's degree, & perfect scores on all the required teacher tests. I handled fights that broke out in the classroom w/out admin support & in under 5min.

[Aubrey]

I've heard it from homeschoolers & non-homeschoolers but not often. I still don't think her comment was serious - she was a teacher.

 

Anyway, we're both just guessing. :tongue_smilie:

 

I was a teacher, but...yeah, I'm kinda serious. Said tongue-in-cheek, but...I really do think that's the only solution.

 

Of course some parents aren't going to do a good job. They need help or jail or whatever. We don't need an entire ps ed system set up to raise kids. Maybe people would have fewer kids if they thought they had to raise them themselves. (Not that that's my goal, but I do think parenting should be looked at as more than a pt hobby on the weekends.)

 

W/out ps, parents would have to put some effort into finding teachers themselves, etc, & the middle men would be cut out. Teachers & parents would be *directly* responsible to ea other. I think that would be a lot more effective, don't you?

 

And if ed isn't valuable enough to a parent to actively seek/work for/pay for, their kids aren't mucking up the system. That doesn't HAVE to be a bad thing.

[Aubrey]

Yes, dh was beside himself having to lay off the new people, some of them much better at their jobs.

 

There is already a system of evaluation in place. Dh makes yearly evaluations of all employees. It wouldn't have to be tied to only test scores. It could be like... oh... almost every other job in the nation :D... where people are evaluated for their performance by their supervisor and their pay and ability to remain employed is based on that.

 

My eval broke every law about teacher evals, though, & there was nothing I could do about it. The vp who did it told me that one of my students had her laptop out under her desk & I didn't notice. But the student she mentioned WASN'T ONE OF MY STUDENTS.

 

VP was checked out, did. not. have. a. clue.

[8circles]

I was a teacher, but...yeah, I'm kinda serious. Said tongue-in-cheek, but...I really do think that's the only solution.

 

Of course some parents aren't going to do a good job. They need help or jail or whatever. We don't need an entire ps ed system set up to raise kids. Maybe people would have fewer kids if they thought they had to raise them themselves. (Not that that's my goal, but I do think parenting should be looked at as more than a pt hobby on the weekends.)

 

W/out ps, parents would have to put some effort into finding teachers themselves, etc, & the middle men would be cut out. Teachers & parents would be *directly* responsible to ea other. I think that would be a lot more effective, don't you?

 

And if ed isn't valuable enough to a parent to actively seek/work for/pay for, their kids aren't mucking up the system. That doesn't HAVE to be a bad thing.

 

I agree with you. I just think it would never ever happen - that's what puts the tongue in my cheek.

[swimmermom3]

I take issue with this. In our public school district conferences are entirely voluntary. No one seems to really care if parents show up or not. If you do show up, you get your 5-7 minutes. The teachers around here claim they want to hear from parents, but when my SIL repeatedly emails her kids' teachers for information or updates on assignments or tests (the teachers request email as their preferred method of communication), they don't respond. Ever. And the grades still aren't posted online in a timely manner.

 

You can't expect parental involvement, then ignore those that do make requests of a teacher's time. At least, that's the way it is around here.

 

Let me clarify that these were conferences that we requested due to performance issues. We were given anywhere from 20 - 40 minutes of time with the teacher to learn about the issues and to make a plan. If your child is not doing well in a class, the teacher will not contact you. You have to show the interest and make the contact.

[Meriwether]

I saw the news last night. They mentioned the numbers of teachers who have been laid off nationwide. It was staggering. I can't remember the exact number as I was distracted while listening, but it was high.

 

My guess is that 100% of them were last hired, first fired and not the bad teachers.

 

The problem with "just fire the bad teachers" though is the definition of a a bad teacher. It can't all be tied to test scores. There has to be a better evaluative measure.

 

 

Dawn

 

 

I had hall duty when I taught. I walked the downstairs half of the school for 45 min. every other day. There were some very obvious bad teachers. The one who showed a movie every.single.day. The one who had such terrible classroom management that I cringed to walk by her class. She was married to the football coach. It was their third district in 5 years. They finally got tenure at our school.:glare: In my own department we had four teachers. Our department head was a *phenomenal* teacher. She could engage any group of kids. She loved her job and was well suited to it. The teacher next door to me was a native speaker and she worked hard to teach. Classroom management did not come easily to her, but she worked at it. I worked there for three years. I put in a lot of effort and improved each year. I was generally considered a good teacher. The fourth lady had tenure. Her students were always ill prepared when coming into our upper level classes. She was the "fun" Spanish teacher. I became pregnant my last year of teaching, but before I told the admin. that I was quiting there were rumors that a Spanish teacher was going to be cut due to budget cuts. Who do you think they were going to cut? I thought it would be me since I was new and didn't have tenure. My department head assured me, however, that my job was safe. She was fairly certain that they would buy her out, because she had the highest salary. They would sacrifice their best teacher to save the difference between her salary and mine (or one of the others). The one teacher they would NOT fire? The underperforming teacher who had a disabled husband and an adult child with Down Syndrome who lived with her. Nice job security for the teacher with dependants - but not a good formula for a successful school.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Meriwether

[Unicorn.]

Were it all sunlight and ice cream our system would not be failing. Someone has to actually bear the responsibility for this.

 

 

Who is to blame? Why does the teachers union not stand up rather than being, as I said, a shill?

 

.

 

Yes, someone does need to accept the blame. But it isn't the teachers. Yes, there are some bad teachers, but most are not. Teacher's hands are tied by the superintendents, state school boards, and the rest of the bureaucrats who only care what things look like on paper. President Bush's No Child Left Behind was screwing up schools in TX long before he took it national.

 

Teacher's unions are there to protect teachers, not students. Instead of blaming teachers, why don't you start a student's union, and start fighting for them.

[DawnM]

Yikes. I am sorry this happened.

 

Were you a new teacher at the time?

 

We had so many things happen at my school that that VP wouldn't have even been concerned about a laptop out under a desk! Sad, but true. I have to say that one of the benefits of working in one of the lowest performing schools in the 2nd largest district in the country, is that minor things just weren't considered a deal at all. The stories I could tell. BUT, that would just fuel the anti-public school fire, and that isn't the point of what I am saying, so I won't.

 

Dawn

 

My eval broke every law about teacher evals, though, & there was nothing I could do about it. The vp who did it told me that one of my students had her laptop out under her desk & I didn't notice. But the student she mentioned WASN'T ONE OF MY STUDENTS.

 

VP was checked out, did. not. have. a. clue.

[Aubrey]

Yikes. I am sorry this happened.

 

Were you a new teacher at the time?

 

We had so many things happen at my school that that VP wouldn't have even been concerned about a laptop out under a desk! Sad, but true. I have to say that one of the benefits of working in one of the lowest performing schools in the 2nd largest district in the country, is that minor things just weren't considered a deal at all. The stories I could tell. BUT, that would just fuel the anti-public school fire, and that isn't the point of what I am saying, so I won't.

 

Dawn

 

To clarify--the name she listed as having a laptop out in my class did not exist. She picked a name from a roster or something, & picked wrong.

 

I was a new teacher, but I think the problem was that she was a new vp. We did have much bigger problems, incl gangs, drugs, violence. One of my freshmen was pg w/ her 3rd child.

 

And in the midst of that, I had everybody reading, participating. Arguing w/ me about the meaning of revenge & justice. Asking if Romeo would survive at the end of the play--*crying* when they hear the ending for the first time.

 

And even the test scores--my pass rate was DOUBLE what the experienced teachers were getting out of older, better students. But I had parents & students knocking over furniture in my classroom, admin lying about me & throwing my lesson plans in my face, etc.

 

I was issued a student computer at the outset instead of a teacher computer & then reprimanded for it--for not having parent contact info or the digital gradebook. The IT guys had told me it would take 6 weeks to get it sorted out but told admin that I hadn't told them about the problem. Admin asked me if I wanted to "change your story." :confused:

 

I got in trouble for not sitting down to make a phone call to a parent in the middle of class on my first day when the fb player shoved me. So I'm supposed to tell this hulking man-child who has already used physical force, "Excuse me, kid. Would you mind to have a seat while I call your mama?" :lol: And then to the rest of the class: "Sorry kids, I know this is only Day 1 (or 2?), but I have to make a phone call. Why don't you guys sit quietly and think about what you did over the summer?"

 

The only problem, though, is that I didn't realize early on that that was admin's "line" that they used to deflect any kind of responsibility. So I spent 10-20hrs/wk for the rest of the school year calling, emailing, snail-mailing parents. For good & bad things. And I kept a notebook documenting it all, & the language ea one was performed in.

 

My eval? After threatening to have me fired for talking to the principal about ONE of the eval violations, the vp gave me a "meets expectations" across the board. But her original was not that complimentary, & she did not respond to my request for an explanation w/in the legal amt of time to do so. The way the law reads, if I didn't go to the principal after that, the eval would have stuck, the same as signing it. VP may have lied about the principal's take on the whole thing, but based on what I saw of the principal...I wouldn't count on it.

[Amy in NH]

Cuts? Here it was a 3% salary raise and about 0.5% raise in bennies, which is the lowest in years. No contribution toward health care at all from salary. Still don't work a 40 hour week.

 

The cuts were all to the students. Goodbye IB, AP, non-required classes, and many extracurriculars and sports. Hello, multiple study hall for those that aren't in remedial.

 

:iagree:

 

Teachers in our school district received a 3% raise, and their benefits cost, to which they contribute nothing, also went up 3%. Meanwhile, my husband hasn't had a raise in 3 years.

[DawnM]

It SO depends on the administration in a school like that. I worked in a couple of different schools. One had admin changing hands so many times that if one did your evaluation, he/she may not be the one actually signing it because he/she may be GONE by the time it needed to be signed.

 

It was horrible. The inmates ruled the prison because they knew there were no consequences.

 

Then I ended up for most of my career in a school that was equally as inner-city, but had a wonderful admin. who actually stuck around and made positive changes.

 

We did have all sorts of issues, don't get me wrong, but it was far more of an organized chaos than the previous school of just plain chaos. Just for reference, our test scores were averaged in the 13th percentile. We had 5,500 students and in any given year, over 1,500 came in and another 1,500 went out. It was a revolving door. This was a nightmare when I got to the counseling office and became a counselor.

 

Dawn

 

To clarify--the name she listed as having a laptop out in my class did not exist. She picked a name from a roster or something, & picked wrong.

 

I was a new teacher, but I think the problem was that she was a new vp. We did have much bigger problems, incl gangs, drugs, violence. One of my freshmen was pg w/ her 3rd child.

 

And in the midst of that, I had everybody reading, participating. Arguing w/ me about the meaning of revenge & justice. Asking if Romeo would survive at the end of the play--*crying* when they hear the ending for the first time.

 

And even the test scores--my pass rate was DOUBLE what the experienced teachers were getting out of older, better students. But I had parents & students knocking over furniture in my classroom, admin lying about me & throwing my lesson plans in my face, etc.

 

I was issued a student computer at the outset instead of a teacher computer & then reprimanded for it--for not having parent contact info or the digital gradebook. The IT guys had told me it would take 6 weeks to get it sorted out but told admin that I hadn't told them about the problem. Admin asked me if I wanted to "change your story." :confused:

 

I got in trouble for not sitting down to make a phone call to a parent in the middle of class on my first day when the fb player shoved me. So I'm supposed to tell this hulking man-child who has already used physical force, "Excuse me, kid. Would you mind to have a seat while I call your mama?" :lol: And then to the rest of the class: "Sorry kids, I know this is only Day 1 (or 2?), but I have to make a phone call. Why don't you guys sit quietly and think about what you did over the summer?"

 

The only problem, though, is that I didn't realize early on that that was admin's "line" that they used to deflect any kind of responsibility. So I spent 10-20hrs/wk for the rest of the school year calling, emailing, snail-mailing parents. For good & bad things. And I kept a notebook documenting it all, & the language ea one was performed in.

 

My eval? After threatening to have me fired for talking to the principal about ONE of the eval violations, the vp gave me a "meets expectations" across the board. But her original was not that complimentary, & she did not respond to my request for an explanation w/in the legal amt of time to do so. The way the law reads, if I didn't go to the principal after that, the eval would have stuck, the same as signing it. VP may have lied about the principal's take on the whole thing, but based on what I saw of the principal...I wouldn't count on it.

[FO4UR]

That is NOT the case here, where Christie is toe to toe with the teacher's union in Jersey.

 

They HATE me. I get comments from all but very few teachers that I know well, and personally.

 

They see me as taking away from them, and they tell me, to my face. They hate the parochial schools, they hate the charter schools.

 

Now, my Dd is in an awesome school and I like *most* of her teachers, but some of them just should NOT be there. Matter of fact, Dd's one teacher, who is I would say almost a friend (to her), will tell her, don't take that class, he does NO teaching. And, not no teaching as in he lectures and makes them figure it out, meaning, kids bring in food, he gives them As and the WHOLE SCHOOL knows it and does nothing because he's got tenure. Worse, he's a geometry teacher.

 

So, there's no, "All teachers are wonderful and it's the administration."

 

 

It isn't ever going to be *ALL* of any one people, but teachers - as it stands right now - don't have the power to change the system.

 

If parents had the power (responsibility!!!) to choose specific schools and specific teachers (and gov't ed $$$ followed the kids)...and teachers' jobs were dependent upon parental requests, that Geometry teacher would be out of a job soon. There has to be an element of "Free and Public" to our educational system, and yet *Parents and *Teachers have to hold 95% of the power in that system. (That Geometry teacher should have a budget, and freedom to use it to teach his class according to his best ideals, he has a *professional* degree, afterall...maybe he's given up on ever getting to actually teach Geometry within the broken system...maybe he's just a terrible teacher and is there for the paycheck...I would not be surprised to hear either case.)

 

 

My degree is BSE Music Education. I got as far as student teaching before becoming a SAHM. That was far enough.

 

I had glowing reviews from my supervising teacher on the lessons I taught/planned. The only comments for improvement were based around meeting the TEST STANDARDS!!!! I was literally told, "Those kids had a blast, and they will never forget (real musical concepts) in all their lives. But, you have to learn to speed through the topics so as to cover everything on the test at the end of the year." And...aside from a positive pregnancy test:D, that was the main reason I didn't get into teaching PS as a profession. Why? Because I would give all I have to give everyday...and be hitting my head against the wall trying to choose what's best for the kids vs what will keep my job. My knowledge/experience with child development, music, etc...is all a moot point...and always will (would) be. This experience also started me down the path of researching alternative education for my own dc. I was a Classical Education groupie at heart, even when I didn't know it.

 

 

Obviously, it's fruitless for teachers to blame and hate parents, kids, homeschoolers, private schoolers, etc...they are pointing their discontent in the wrong direction.

[leeannpal]

Let me clarify that these were conferences that we requested due to performance issues. We were given anywhere from 20 - 40 minutes of time with the teacher to learn about the issues and to make a plan. If your child is not doing well in a class, the teacher will not contact you. You have to show the interest and make the contact.

 

That depends on the school. At my school, we are required, as teachers, to contact the parent by email or phone if their child has a failing grade.

We also participate in parent conferences at least 3-4 times a month for an average of an hour at a time.

Edited September 30, 2011 by leeannpal

[Mommyfaithe]

I'm in NY. It's totally different here, in a superunionized environment. One does not work off the clock. Districts have other employees to grade papers that can't be trade graded in class or graded during the professional periods ( a teacher conducts class for 4 periods of a 9 period day, 1 is lunch, the rest are professional). At most, ime, only one paper is graded a week anyway in middle and high school. But that's off topic. Glad others are noticing the ginormous super pay for lesser performance. Politicians here are noticing the huge difference between public and private compensation for jobs requring similar skills, education and responsibilities. The discussion is ongoing at school budget meetings, especially as people note the enormous increase in school budgets in the last ten years.

 

:iagree:

NY is a completely different creature. We get a new supt. With a ginormous salary every 3-4 years. The cuts are always at the lower levels....think..."we don't need a librarian in EVERY school....she can move around...grrrrrr.". No art classes...phys Ed cut so bad the parents banded together and raised enough money to reinstate the programs AFTER our school taxes were raised 75% in one year!

It burns me up, and we don't even use the schools. Oh, I have many friends in the school system...and they are completely frustrated as well. Time for a system change for sure!

[DawnM]

I think the difference may be elementary vs. secondary.

 

I could have up to 250 on my roster per semester depending on what I taught and how many periods I taught (there were 6 periods in a day and we were required to teach 5. I sometimes signed up for an additional period to teach to make extra $$ for a semester or year.) If I taught Career planning, the limit in my class (each class period) was 45 because it was an elective. English had a cap of 35 per class, but they tried to keep it under 33. I also had a homeroom of 40-45, so that *could* end up being 40x7 students per semester.

 

Dawn

 

 

 

That depends on the school. At my school, we are required, as teachers, to contact the parent by email or phone if their child has a failing grade.

We also participate in parent conferences at least 3-4 times a month for an average of an hour at a time.

[leeannpal]

I think the difference may be elementary vs. secondary.

 

I could have up to 250 on my roster per semester depending on what I taught and how many periods I taught (there were 6 periods in a day and we were required to teach 5. I sometimes signed up for an additional period to teach to make extra $$ for a semester or year.) If I taught Career planning, the limit in my class (each class period) was 45 because it was an elective. English had a cap of 35 per class, but they tried to keep it under 33. I also had a homeroom of 40-45, so that *could* end up being 40x7 students per semester.

 

Dawn

 

I'm not an elementary teacher. I'm a middle school teacher. This year, I have 90 students total.

[DawnM]

I would have spent hours and hours doing that each week! There is no way I could work there unless your students were better performing than ours were.

 

Dawn

 

I'm not an elementary teacher. I'm a middle school teacher. This year, I have 90 students total.

[Tammyla]

:iagree: They certainly have their priorities. Here in my state, the teachers have not taken pay cuts; they have received increases in salary and benefits. This is also a highly unionized state, and they are powerful enough to keep out charter schools.

 

:iagree:

NY is a completely different creature. We get a new supt. With a ginormous salary every 3-4 years. The cuts are always at the lower levels....think..."we don't need a librarian in EVERY school....she can move around...grrrrrr.". No art classes...phys Ed cut so bad the parents banded together and raised enough money to reinstate the programs AFTER our school taxes were raised 75% in one year!

It burns me up, and we don't even use the schools. Oh, I have many friends in the school system...and they are completely frustrated as well. Time for a system change for sure!

Edited September 30, 2011 by Tammyla

[Word Nerd]

We don't need an entire ps ed system set up to raise kids. Maybe people would have fewer kids if they thought they had to raise them themselves. (Not that that's my goal, but I do think parenting should be looked at as more than a pt hobby on the weekends.)

 

 

:confused: Wow. I had no idea that I lost the right to consider myself a full-time parent when I enrolled my kids in school.

[Aubrey]

:confused: Wow. I had no idea that I lost the right to consider myself a full-time parent when I enrolled my kids in school.

 

No--you have to read my comment in the context of the whole thread. :001_smile: Pp said we couldn't abolish the ps system because some parents wouldn't be able to parent their own children. I don't think a) it's gov'ts job to do that or b) that the ps system is set up to do that anyway.

 

Please. Read the thread before getting offended at one out-of-context post.

[FO4UR]

The extra students have to go somewhere, and it will be him until he is let go or reassigned, as there will be no other choice with empty seats.

 

If the affluent parent can't get the seat he wants for the student in the high school, one sol'n is to take the class via distance learning. Principals understand the ramifications for that choice. They'll squeeze in an extra chair to avoid losing their $$$. If enough parents opt for that sol'n, the school will lose a teacher too..and it may be a young competent one, certainly not the one that is teaching the class they are avoiding putting their child in.

 

 

True. There is no easy fix here b/c a small change over *here* will pull from over *there* and the pendulum swings and simply moves the problems about...until we finally decide to chuck the entire system out the window and start over again. I think we are there. We can't have *nothing,* but what we have just might be worse.

 

If parents could choose the school itself, lots of parents would simply leave the school if the admin didn't fix the problems, enable good teachers, etc. Yep - the $$$ talks, and schools would be competing for students. I think this would be a good thing IF we *at the same time* fortified the poor/failing districts with some dynamic teachers through giving them HUGE salary susidies from the Fed level. Federal $ should go towards placing *proven* teachers/admin into districts and schools who need an enema.

 

My ideas all assume that 90% of parents actually want their kids to succeed in school, the gov't goals actually include teaching kids to read and write (and math), and that there are *some* competent teachers out there...and maybe some people who would consider teaching (again!?!) if they were treated as the professionals that they are.

 

This is all daydreaming...I'm very interested in other ideas...in actually seeing a PS system that thrives before I die(:tongue_smilie:). I very well may teach in the PS system some day (thinking of getting certified for elem ed). I feel a strong pull to #1 teach my own well, and #2 get out there and fight for other kids (maybe my grandkids).

 

At least we all agree that this isn't working.:lol: and :sad:

[angela in ohio]

The superintendents move around here frequently too.

 

That's common, and it's one of the reasons they have to offer big salaries and have trouble attracting good people. You know going in that you are going to be blamed if you can't fix the problems of society, parents, teachers, government, culture, and the economy in the next year or two. :lol: And when you don't, the school board blames you and goes looking for someone else. Who in their right mind takes a job like that? It is a rare district that has brains enough to see that the problem is bigger than just finding the perfect superintendent, and where you see that stability and thoughtfulness, you tend to see a better performing district.

[DawnM]

Do you have some sort of link to this information? I am having a hard time believing the teachers teach less than half the day, have their papers graded for them, and just sit around and do nothing.

 

Dawn

 

I'm in NY. It's totally different here, in a superunionized environment. One does not work off the clock. Districts have other employees to grade papers that can't be trade graded in class or graded during the professional periods ( a teacher conducts class for 4 periods of a 9 period day, 1 is lunch, the rest are professional). At most, ime, only one paper is graded a week anyway in middle and high school. But that's off topic. Glad others are noticing the ginormous super pay for lesser performance. Politicians here are noticing the huge difference between public and private compensation for jobs requring similar skills, education and responsibilities. The discussion is ongoing at school budget meetings, especially as people note the enormous increase in school budgets in the last ten years.

[cdrumm4448]

Let me clarify that these were conferences that we requested due to performance issues. We were given anywhere from 20 - 40 minutes of time with the teacher to learn about the issues and to make a plan. If your child is not doing well in a class, the teacher will not contact you. You have to show the interest and make the contact.

 

SIL's kids all do very well in school. She just likes to know what's up. Doesn't do much good to inquire when there usually isn't a timely response.

[cdrumm4448]

Teacher's unions are there to protect teachers, not students.

 

That is a problem.

[Matryoshka]

I actually think the problem will be fixed by uncompelling students. You want to learn, you come. We can offer adult remedial later, when they have found motivation. Perhaps we could just give everyone 12 free years of schooling. They can spend that where they want, from preK to Phd.

 

That would be an awesome idea! That would save me from worrying how to pay for college! :tongue_smilie:

[DawnM]

It would be a great idea if you could find a way to take care of the 70% of the students in places like NYC and LA roaming the streets together causing problems.

 

Dawn

 

That would be an awesome idea! That would save me from worrying how to pay for college! :tongue_smilie:

[DawnM]

I am not doing a long extensive search for proof of a statement you made without you sending some sort of link to a specific statement from the NY school board or regulatory body. I still am not sure you are seeing the entire picture and still question what you have said. The only thing I have ever seen in the bargaining agreement was that teachers are not supposed to teach 3 class periods in a row. They get a break of either a class period for grading or lunch or whatever. That does not say they only teach 3 periods per day.

 

 

Dawn

 

Teachers use their professional periods for their professional responsibilities such as prep time, office hours, and parent contact. If the class is inclusive, they also meet with sped teachers and aides and attend IEP meetings.

 

Technology has reached our district. We have a copy center, so no one needs to stand and watch a copy machine. We have a scantron to grade m.c. tests and a designated clerk to run the scantron. We have castle learning and Accelerated Reader which both give a grade report to the teacher We also have aides that can grade short answer/m.c., and students that can trade grade. Papers...papers take about 2 minutes to grade. It rather blew my kid's mind to see an English teacher grade a paper in 2 minutes after they spent weeks writing it. However, if you have a rubric and experience, it's 2 minutes as his teacher demo'd for the class. Longer papers are only in the College in the High School program.

 

Contracts..seethroughny.com has FOILED many contracts. The NYTimes has published the NYC contract...search the archive.

Edited October 2, 2011 by DawnM

[mom31257]

I'm getting in late on this, but I wanted to share another waste story. My dh teaches in a local public high school. The county began a new county-wide initiative to use a Thinking Maps program this year. There was a 3 day seminar this summer with food provided, stipends for all who attend, costly materials, etc. My dh did not attend because he had others to go to. The teachers who didn't go were required to have some training meetings near the first of the year.

 

He goes into the first meeting and sits down where he is handed a packet about these "thinking maps". He pulls it out and they are graphic organizers. He pointed it out in the meeting, saying, "Oh, these are graphic organizers." She hushed him up saying that they weren't graphic organizers but thinking maps. :confused:

 

He figures the county has spent $100K on this program.:eek: It's 8 different types of "maps" that they are required to use in the classroom on a regular basis.

 

If this much was spent in one county, how many places have used the same on this program? It's like the old peddlers of miracle cures, bottle something simple up in a fancy package and walk away with people's money (our tax dollars that is). They can spend money on something like this, but he had to have a pay cut and insurance will go up again in January.

[LibraryLover]

.

Edited October 3, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Rosie_0801]

no doubt, but schools are not in session in the same way other professional jobs are.

 

Yes, some teachers get those holidays, some get them as "non attendance days." I think it depends heavily on what subjects you teach.

 

Rosie