somehow this trend in education doesn't make sense to me!

[Bang!Zoom!]

At some point in the conversation, money is going to enter.

 

I don't know at what level political pressure theories around it can be discussed.

 

But in passing, it is a heavy element in the testing industry - and the educational systems.

 

I don't think AP and it's relatives are based in altruistic idealism such as mastery and applied knowledge.

 

Not a single bit.

[justamouse]

At some point in the conversation, money is going to enter.

 

I don't know at what level political pressure theories around it can be discussed.

 

But in passing, it is a heavy element in the testing industry - and the educational systems.

 

I don't think AP and it's relatives are based in altruistic idealism such as mastery and applied knowledge.

 

Not a single bit.

:iagree:

[lovemyboys]

At some point in the conversation, money is going to enter.

 

I don't know at what level political pressure theories around it can be discussed.

 

But in passing, it is a heavy element in the testing industry - and the educational systems.

 

I don't think AP and it's relatives are based in altruistic idealism such as mastery and applied knowledge.

 

Not a single bit.

 

Yes.

 

"In my day," AP classes were used to test out of entry-level college classes and to get credits toward graduation so kids were able to dual-major in 4 years or graduate in less than 4. But things have certainly changed.

[ktgrok]

At some point in the conversation, money is going to enter.

 

I don't know at what level political pressure theories around it can be discussed.

 

But in passing, it is a heavy element in the testing industry - and the educational systems.

 

I don't think AP and it's relatives are based in altruistic idealism such as mastery and applied knowledge.

 

Not a single bit.

 

So true. My sister admitted they get more money as a school the more kids that take AP classes. So yeah, it is in their financial best interest to push as many as possible.

[Bang!Zoom!]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/education/edlife/09ap-t.html?_r=1&ref=education

 

A recent article in the NYT which is critical of the AP courses, as well as changes that were announced by the College Board, called the "New AP".

 

Fairly short article, 4 pages, but a good read.

[MBM]

I realized I didn't answer your questions, Katie, so here are my two cents of advice.

 

You might want to ask your sister if she has seen the documentary Race to Nowhere yet and what her thoughts are of that. Most kids I know are not doing all that your sister mentioned. I think this book by Cal Newport -- How to Be a High School Superstar: A Revolutionary Plan to Get into College by Standing Out (Without Burning Out) makes some interesting points worth considering.

 

I do think schools are pushing students to advance too quickly sometimes, and personally, I don't think it's a good idea. For example, my son took an advanced math track through our high school with other students. A few were genuinely ready for it, but others would have been much better off to wait a year while they solidified concepts they hadn't quite grasped. It's not worth moving ahead if a student doesn't understand the concepts that later material needs to build upon.

[gardenmom5]

. She is filling me in on how now kids take high school math starting in 7th grade, take AP science courses starting their freshman year, etc. So...what are your thoughts? Particularly those actually out there, in the universities and colleges. What are you seeing? Is this trend working out?

 

Okay, I have two who academically excelled both in high school and university, and have graduated from a top tier private university. (warning, mom brag: one was summa cum laude/phi beta kappa. one of only seven to do so in her graduating class.)

 

My own district is constantly "advertising" how many students are taking AP, etc. etc. etc. that's only one measure. I think this "acceleration" smacks as more a feel good exercise for the administrations than actual education for the kids. what are they calling "high school math"? algebra? that's been the top math track in 7th grade since I was in school. that still get's an introductory year of calculus for high school sr. year.

 

Kids can only go as fast as they are developmentally capable, and some develop in other areas first. to push them into an educational track they aren't ready for right now can make them feel like failures (and that is the message the schools can end up sending, whether they intend it or not.) when all they really need is a little more time to mature.

 

the bigger questions to me are - what are the kids comprehending, retaining, and able to regurgitate back to their teachers? (or better yet, others who have no knowledge of the subject.) AP classes are worthless W/O the test scores administered by their parent organization to support them. what are the scores these freshman students are getting? there is a minimum score to pass the test.

Edited August 22, 2011 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

I I don't think she cares about mastery as much as what goes on paper.

 

what she is also probably ignoring is just because a student has AP or IB credits DOES NOT MEAN those credits will transfer to bump them out of the same subject class. re: they still have to take the class. that seems to be her argument of cost saving, skipping classes - but if they still have to take the class because the syllabi do not match, there is no cost savings. (neither of my daughters who did IBdips, or my nephew who did seven AP were able to "skip" classes with their credits)

 

there is one class my pharmD dd has the option of testing out of (it's basically an organic chem class). every one in later years/recently graduated has told her to. take. the. class. and that the "money saving" isn't worth it when material is covered in that class that is referred to in a 2nd year class taught by the same prof. and no. where. else.

[gardenmom5]

This is a trend for the public schools in my area. The school districts are pushing the AP classes and the parents enjoy bragging about how many AP classes their kids are taking.

 

However, as a college professor I see these kids a couple of years after high school and am alarmed at how little they know. Last year only about 5% of college students could correctly identify the subject and verb of a sentence they wrote. I had a student underline "of" as the subject of his sentence, one underline "very" as the verb of her sentence, etc.

 

what's even more scary is how many of those grammar deficient college students are english majors going on to teach high school. I was flabergasted at a couple recently minted english major teachers my sons had - very scary.

 

there are some great public school teachers, and then there are the ones who are a contributing reason as to why I'm choosing to homeschool.

[gardenmom5]

We have had a dual enrollment program in WA state (called Running Start) for about 20 years. Students can opt to do their last two years of high school at their local community college, resulting in an AA and a diploma being earned simultaneously. It is a very popular program, you have to test into it, .

 

 

one other thing about RS in WA. they do not cover remedial classes, college level classes only or the parents pay. english and math must both be tested into for placement, and the student must score high enough to go straight into college level classes.

 

I had one son do RS -and I'm sure much was the particular school involved (it's the THIRD largest college in the state in terms of enrollement, behind UW's, and WSU's main campi), but getting needed classes became an absolute joke. The schedule would say they were going to be offered, but then they wouldn't be and students can't move on without them. I'm acquainted with several teachers there, and they said this has been an increasing problem at this shcool. needed classes aren't available.

[NittanyJen]

I graduated from said "good" university 13 years ago. Professors were saying the same thing then, except that the kids from in state couldn't do higher level math. My parents both graduated from different good universities in the 1950's. Professors said the same thing then.

 

 

Well, yes and no.

 

I have had to help out students at our local University (which consistently gets top rankings in its graduate math program, both nationally and internationally). These students have transcripts showing A's and B's in honors and AP calc, and some of them have 4's and 5's on their AP Calc exams. They go ahead and take the AP credit, placing out of first or second semester calc (AB or BC exam) and moving into the second or third semester of calc.

 

It is a disaster. Huge numbers of them end up backpedaling furiously, either into first semester calculus, or even into a remedial math program. They cannot sketch basic graphs, do trig identities, or handle basic algebra or geometry without a calculator, which means they have no clue if they do use a calculator and get a ridiculous answer as a result of keying something incorrectly or approaching the problem incorrectly.

 

Yes, there have always been anecdotes of brilliant students who do spectacularly well, and of students who lost their way before they even checked into their dorms. But it seems to be a real trend that too many kids are being ushered into AP courses in order to boost the US News rankings of their high school, without regard for what is academically best for the student.

 

It is also NOT always financially best for the student. I have seen too many kiddos who, despite a high grade on the AP exam, crash and burn in a course series (math, foreign language, science) and have to go back and take an earlier course after all, after failing a semester, or even remediating for a semester, then starting at the beginning. These kids are out the failing tuition courses, the remedial course tuition, AND the AP testing fees, all for nothing. It adds up. And it does not happen rarely . . . the population of kids to whom this is happening is absolutely huge.

 

The reasons for not doing well in the college classroom at the undergrad level are threefold:

1) inadequate high school (and below) preparation of basic skills because they jumped into "AP" courses instead of getting a good foundation-- AP courses are for superior students, and at the rate kids are taking them, you'd think we all must live in Lake Woebegone. (see the other thread on this topic for the why)

2) reliance on helicopter parents (there is NO excuse for the parent of a college student to call a professor to complain about a grade on behalf of their little sweet-ums. If the person is mature enough to be in college, they are mature enough to handle their own affairs. Part of college is growing up) and

3) zero study skills/not enough motivation to study even if they know how (the number of kids who don't show up for class or turn in homework, then have the gall to ask for "extra credit" after failing an exam is shocking; that doesn't even touch on kids texting in class, surfing the web, and other behaviors you would just not believe, even after the kid sitting next to them was tossed out of class for the exact same behavior-- and then they act as if the professor was the one being rude).

 

I don't recall any of my college classmates acting anywhere close to that boorish in class-- they would not have dared-- as if they were doing the professor a huge favor by showing up and existing. (I will spot folks that not showing up for class all the time is hardly a new trend-- I did go to school for degree #1 in Happy Valley after all . . . there is a bar or two there, I've been told . . . :) but today's kids are elevating that trend to a new high-- er low.)

 

 

Okay, it's late . . . kids wake up in about 3 1/2 hours . . .

[Tap]

Yes, it should...but for the most part, I don't think it is that way. When I was in high school, the only classes that were worth taking were the challenge (honors) classes. I don't think dual enrollment is for everyone, I think testing should be done to make sure that students are ready for the pace and the higher level of academic work.

 

For the record, I did one year in community college and it was a joke. Maybe the problem isn't so much at the high school level, but at the college level? I guess it all kind of flows together--students leave high school ill-prepared for college, so the colleges dumb down their classes. Either way, the community college classes I took weren't worthy of someone who graduated high school with a quality education.

 

So if college classes were adequately challenging and high school classes adequately prepared students for college, I might rethink my position.

 

 

In Washington, dual enrolled students take the same placement exams as any other college student. They can only take 100 level classes or above at the college. If they do not pass the writing and reading tests, they can only take math based classes. If they do not pass the math with a score high enough to get into college algebra, they can not take any math classes. Remedial classes cannot count toward highschool graduation, and are not paid for by the school district.

 

Some students take all of the classes on the college campus, and some split their days in any combination that work for them, spending part of it on the high school campus and some on the college. BUT, all the college classes are absolutely college level! The professors are supposed to know who is traditionally enrolled and who is RS.

 

The CC in our area, is very good and it's credits transfer to many universities at full value.

 

Students tuition is paid for, but not books or fees. There is also a new cap of 15 credit hours per term, paid for by the school district (or a 120% FTE).

 

There are VERY specific classes that count for high school graduation, it can be a bit complicated to get what a student needs, if they are also taking classes geared toward a specific AA degree.

 

There are some great options also. There are more classes and options for literature and the arts. There are true upper level math and science lecture options and lab sciences that are much, much better than anything provided in the high school.

[creekland]

We just got a letter from Dd16's school with information that they were connecting to a virtual school and a list of over 100 extra classes and AP courses that were offered (as it is the school offers a large amount of AP courses). The only stipulations is that they maintain a B or higher in all regular classes.

 

For the self motivated, I can imagine it's a golden opportunity.

 

Can you pm me the school? (the virtual school) I'm trying to get my local school to offer AP as it's so much more useful than what they offer for top kids wanting to go to top places and it sounds like this might be a viable suggestion. I'd love it if my guy had so many options.

[creekland]

 

It is a disaster. Huge numbers of them end up backpedaling furiously, either into first semester calculus, or even into a remedial math program. They cannot sketch basic graphs, do trig identities, or handle basic algebra or geometry without a calculator, which means they have no clue if they do use a calculator and get a ridiculous answer as a result of keying something incorrectly or approaching the problem incorrectly.

 

...

 

3) zero study skills/not enough motivation to study even if they know how (the number of kids who don't show up for class or turn in homework, then have the gall to ask for "extra credit" after failing an exam is shocking; that doesn't even touch on kids texting in class, surfing the web, and other behaviors you would just not believe, even after the kid sitting next to them was tossed out of class for the exact same behavior-- and then they act as if the professor was the one being rude).

 

 

I think the two I quoted are the biggest issues IMO. Schools start kids with calculators way too early, and in doing so, short circuit actual math knowledge replacing it with memorizing calculator step knowledge. I know that happens in my school 99% of the time. I've had students in Alg 2 classes who weren't able to tell me 2x4 or 3x100 without using their calculator. It's really, really, frustrating. Being good with calculator skills is not the same as knowing math.

 

Then, classes have been so dumbed down with "practice tests" provided for almost everything. Smart [academic] kids never have to study or pay attention. They never learn to. Then, when they get to college, they are floored that it isn't the same, and of course, it isn't THEIR fault. It must be the prof.

 

I see this all. the. time. It's why I pulled mine out (for 100% academic reasons) to homeschool. It's why I'm frustrated that youngest opted to go back, but at least now he easily sees the difference and says he's committed to working in spite of his peers. Time will tell. When little to no work is demanded, it's tough to work anyway. Fortunately, he's not looking at a top college nor a top field and he is self-motivated within his niche to do more than required.

[Laura Corin]

How are the AP exams graded? Is there an absolute level of marks for a 5 or a 4, or is there a certain percentage each year that gets each grade? If the latter, then the more schools push children into APs, the more degraded the qualification will become.

 

Laura

[asta]

Nevermind.

 

I give.

 

 

a

Edited August 22, 2011 by asta

[flyingiguana]

How are the AP exams graded? Is there an absolute level of marks for a 5 or a 4, or is there a certain percentage each year that gets each grade? If the latter, then the more schools push children into APs, the more degraded the qualification will become.

 

Laura

 

I suspect it's more of an absolute, as the percentage of kids getting a certain score on the different tests is not the same across the board.

 

But it would not surprise if they were to "re-norm" the tests if more and more kids are taking them. Too many 1's and 2's might eventually discourage people and they might stop taking the tests. So it might be worthwhile for the College Board to encourage more test takers with easier tests. On the other hand, they still have to convince colleges that they're equivalent to a college course, or colleges will stop offering credit and the number of test takers would go down.

 

But my feeling is that the problem experienced at colleges with kids who have tested out via AP scores is that it's easier (with some of the tests) to learn how to take the test rather than to learn the material.

 

Also, I suspect some of the tests are a lot easier than others. The kids who get through the AP Calc test with a decent score, for example, seem to know a lot more are more likely to be ready to go on than those who scored well on the physics exam.

 

I think this is why a lot of colleges would rather give credit for dual enrollment than AP. There are a lot of colleges that have no problem granting credit for college courses taken elsewhere.

 

For credit out of a community college, this may depend on the quality of the community college. However, it is also possible that people are experiencing difficulty getting credit transferred because they took the wrong class. There are always students entering our college who want to get out of a full year of, say, major's biology because they think they already took that class -- when all they actually took was a semester non-major's class. And they will argue this point. A lot of people seem not to understand the difference. And then they go out and tell everyone that such and such a college NEVER grants credit for college courses taken elsewhere.

[flyingiguana]

If one is taking 20 of 56 chapters out of a text... "AP" is not "equal" to a college level course.

 

Actually, many college courses don't cover every chapter. It's not that they're not rigorous, it's that professors know they can't do it all justice and it's better to cover the basics well than just fly through both the basics and the fluff.

 

After all, a lot of chapters are often added to textbooks just to make them look like they can be used by many different types of courses. Or maybe to make the texts weightier and more expensive?

 

And in the sciences, a lot of the later chapters in freshman texts get covered in more depth in later courses, so there's not much point to a quick glimpse of these later topics if it means skimping on the basics.

[RahRah]

TMI

[Trish]

Can we draw any general inferences from all this as to how to steer our kids when they hit high school?

[creekland]

 

I think this is why a lot of colleges would rather give credit for dual enrollment than AP.

 

For what it's worth, we've experienced just the opposite when looking at mid to upper level private colleges. Many colleges will not give credit for dual enrollment, but will give credit for a 4 or 5 on the AP test.

 

State schools (in state to the community college) and lower level privates tend to take either equally and generally a 3 or better on the AP.

 

And our experience has had nothing to do with courses not matching, but I can fully understand that issue.

[creekland]

Can we draw any general inferences from all this as to how to steer our kids when they hit high school?

 

Plan to have them take a few AP tests (and be certain they are well-prepared for them so they don't get low scores). They don't need oodles, but having a few will help them compete with the others applying.

 

Above that, make certain they are well-prepared for the ACT or SAT as high scores on either of those two tests can equate great opportunities and potential scholarship money. If your student is in the top of the top stats-wise (many Hive kids are), also try for National Merit scholarship opportunities via the PSAT. We tend to have our kids take it as sophomores as a practice run, then take it for scholarship contention junior year.

 

Plus, it's not all about the testing at most schools. Be certain they have an outside academics interest or two and let them really delve into it. Not only will they enjoy themselves, it will help them stand out on applications later on. Be certain they have the interest. Doing things just to check off boxes on applications doesn't help a whole lot if interviews are involved. Adcoms look for passion in the activities.

[jennynd]

I was reading in my paper today that colleges are having too many problems with remedial work from kids coming out of HS, and then dropping out. .

:iagree:i read this too. my guess is the quality of PS just so bad and the material so water down and if not taking those AP class. kids won't survive in college.

[Melissa in NC]

My husband taught at a university for 5 years. He was teaching sophmore level electrical and computer engineering students. He consistantly noticed that the students who took AP calculus and went straight into Calc 2 were weaker in their math skills.

 

I am not so impressed with the whole AP system. It seems a good way for the AP company to make money. If you are an engineering major and you clep out an english course, great. English is not your major. If you are going to major in Chemical Engineering, cleping out chemistry and calc is a bad idea.

[elizabeth]

My sister (who is not supportive of homeschooling) is a vice principal in the public school system. Last year she was in a middle school, this year a highschool. She is filling me in on how now kids take high school math starting in 7th grade, take AP science courses starting their freshman year, etc. That most have finished 2 years of college before graduation, including two years of AP calculus, AP physics, AP Biology, AP Chemistry, and possibly AP Environmental Science. That they teach Freshman Comp 1 and 2 at the highschool, because so many kids were dual enrolled, etc. Sounds fabulous....except with all this acceleration we do NOT seem to be turning out a bunch of math and science scholars. I mean, has there been a huge influx of scientists that I don't know about? Or kids that have great reading and writing skills, for that matter?

 

It seems that kids are taking more and more advanced classes, and yet still showing up in college less and less prepared, and less and less educated.

 

She can't comprehend that I care more about the actual math knowledge my son is receiving than about saving a years worth of tuition by accelerating him.

 

So...what are your thoughts? Particularly those actually out there, in the universities and colleges. What are you seeing? Is this trend working out?

 

With all due respect for your relationship, she is absolutely bsing you. As a lawyer who also socializes a great deal with other lawyers and MD's I can say none of their children are heading into their freshman year with two years worth of credits. If that was a statistic I can safely say I would likely be well aware of it given the miserable people I am forced to socialize with by virtue of my choice of profession. They like to complain, belittle and deride home education and their own parenting in the same breath. Thus there are no good alternatives just more to ***** and moan about. Yuck. Actually most desirable colleges limit the number of credits to be earned in AP testing and or CLEP in any event. One or two semesters worth would be laudable but knowing the material and understanding how to apply it is certainly more important to me.

[Tammyla]

AP classes here are very popular, many students take them beginning in their freshman year because they're expected to. Coincidentally, a number of our local universities and state schools are not accepting them as credit anymore. They aren't rigorous and do not measure up...at all.

 

My sister (who is not supportive of homeschooling) is a vice principal in the public school system. Last year she was in a middle school, this year a highschool. She is filling me in on how now kids take high school math starting in 7th grade, take AP science courses starting their freshman year, etc. That most have finished 2 years of college before graduation, including two years of AP calculus, AP physics, AP Biology, AP Chemistry, and possibly AP Environmental Science. That they teach Freshman Comp 1 and 2 at the highschool, because so many kids were dual enrolled, etc. Sounds fabulous....except with all this acceleration we do NOT seem to be turning out a bunch of math and science scholars. I mean, has there been a huge influx of scientists that I don't know about? Or kids that have great reading and writing skills, for that matter?

 

It seems that kids are taking more and more advanced classes, and yet still showing up in college less and less prepared, and less and less educated.

 

She can't comprehend that I care more about the actual math knowledge my son is receiving than about saving a years worth of tuition by accelerating him.

 

So...what are your thoughts? Particularly those actually out there, in the universities and colleges. What are you seeing? Is this trend working out?

[LibraryLover]

I just found this article, from our state...saying kids that get 3s don't do that well in college after all. http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/florida-lawmakers-mull-changes-to-advanced-placement-college-1384494.html

 

 

I have never heard of such a ridiculous thing. A 3 on an AP test is fine, but it's not college level and should never be considered for college credit!

[mom31257]

I believe that states requiring all kids to do college prep has created a need for all the honors and AP classes because there are many kids who could not pass chemistry or Algebra 2 unless they make it easy. Regular chemistry is "dumbed down" and honors is probably regular chemistry, while AP Chemistry is what used to be college prep.

 

I think allowing kids to rely on technology is probably hurting their thinking skills. We had never heard of graphing caluclators when I was in school. I got a math degree without ever using one. Guess what? I had to do all the graphing myself! I remember having to look up trigonometric ratios on a table in the back of the book and actually do all the math myself.

[LibraryLover]

With all due respect for your relationship, she is absolutely bsing you. As a lawyer who also socializes a great deal with other lawyers and MD's I can say none of their children are heading into their freshman year with two years worth of credits. If that was a statistic I can safely say I would likely be well aware of it given the miserable people I am forced to socialize with by virtue of my choice of profession. They like to complain, belittle and deride home education and their own parenting in the same breath. Thus there are no good alternatives just more to ***** and moan about. Yuck. Actually most desirable colleges limit the number of credits to be earned in AP testing and or CLEP in any event. One or two semesters worth would be laudable but knowing the material and understanding how to apply it is certainly more important to me.

 

 

I was steaming through the first page of this thread and couldn't go. Maybe some state schools will waive a required Freshman class for a kid who got a 5 on an AP test, but there is no way a school like Boston University does. Private colleges don't do this! You might get to the school and test out of a 101 comp or math class during orientation week, but that's it! There is no way you are getting BU is going to give you a 4 year degree in two years. Academics aside, why on earth would a BU allow this? WHat is in it for them, financially?

 

I know kids at highly competitive colleges -- 5s on a few APs might get you in the door, but you still have to take their core classes! So I call BS as well.

Edited August 22, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Joker]

I know kids at highly competitive colleges and 5s on a few APs might get you in the door, but you still have to take the college core classes .

 

My dh went to Berkeley (in early 90s) and his AP exams counted as credit. I didn't know some don't take the passing exam as credit.

[LibraryLover]

My dh went to Berkeley (in early 90s) and his AP exams counted as credit. I didn't know some don't take the passing exam as credit.

 

 

 

UC Berkeley is a state school. Was your dh a grad of a CA high school?

 

If not, did he take fewer classes to graduate, or did he test out of a 100 level?

Edited August 22, 2011 by LibraryLover

[creekland]

My husband taught at a university for 5 years. He was teaching sophmore level electrical and computer engineering students. He consistantly noticed that the students who took AP calculus and went straight into Calc 2 were weaker in their math skills.

 

I am not so impressed with the whole AP system. It seems a good way for the AP company to make money. If you are an engineering major and you clep out an english course, great. English is not your major. If you are going to major in Chemical Engineering, cleping out chemistry and calc is a bad idea.

 

Many times schools will not let you accept credit for courses in which you plan to major. Some do, but many do not. Clep and AP are two different tests. Many schools will also give a Calc placement test and decide credit/placement based on that - not solely AP.

[Perry]

I was steaming through the first page of this thread and couldn't go. Maybe some state schools will waive a required Freshman class for a kid who got a 5 on an AP test, but there is no way a school like Boston University does. Private colleges don't do this! You might get to the school and test out of a 101 comp or math class during orientation week, but that's it! There is no way you are getting BU is going to give you a 4 year degree in two years. Academics aside, why on earth would a BU allow this? WHat is in it for them, financially?

 

I know kids at highly competitive colleges -- 5s on a few APs might get you in the door, but you still have to take their core classes! So I call BS as well.

Every school has their own policy. At our state school, some AP classes count as only electives, while others substitute for core courses.

[creekland]

I was steaming through the first page of this thread and couldn't go. Maybe some state schools will waive a required Freshman class for a kid who got a 5 on an AP test, but there is no way a school like Boston University does. Private colleges don't do this! You might get to the school and test out of a 101 comp or math class during orientation week, but that's it! There is no way you are getting BU is going to give you a 4 year degree in two years. Academics aside, why on earth would a BU allow this? WHat is in it for them, financially?

 

I know kids at highly competitive colleges -- 5s on a few APs might get you in the door, but you still have to take their core classes! So I call BS as well.

 

Actually, most private schools - even top schools - will give credit for 4 or 5 on most AP tests (Human Geography is NOT one generally accepted). We're in the hunt/application process now and are considering some top of the top schools (not BU). Pre-med students need to be careful what they accept in AP credits because many med schools won't accept them. Most undergrad schools realize this and advise accordingly, but students who aren't pre-med are still more than welcome to test out of classes (with credit).

 

Fewer colleges accept cc courses from dual enrolled students.

 

I encourage anyone who is close to needing to decide to check out college websites. We've been asking many in person. ;)

[Caroline]

I was steaming through the first page of this thread and couldn't go. Maybe some state schools will waive a required Freshman class for a kid who got a 5 on an AP test, but there is no way a school like Boston University does. Private colleges don't do this! You might get to the school and test out of a 101 comp or math class during orientation week, but that's it! There is no way you are getting BU is going to give you a 4 year degree in two years. Academics aside, why on earth would a BU allow this? WHat is in it for them, financially?

 

I know kids at highly competitive colleges -- 5s on a few APs might get you in the door, but you still have to take their core classes! So I call BS as well.

 

MIT will give you credit for Calculus and Physics and many social sciences and humanities, or so says their website.

 

From the Boston University website:

 

"Most programs at Boston University award credit for test

scores of 4 or 5 on most AP examinations. For some

programs and exams, credit is awarded for a score of 3."

 

Stanford will give credit for many AP exams, as will Harvard.

 

Those are all highly competitive.

[mcconnellboys]

I think more schools are labeling work as "AP" that isn't truly AP level work.... Many kids who take "AP" classes don't even take the AP exams at the end of the school year (or pass them)....

[LibraryLover]

MIT will give you credit for Calculus and Physics and many social sciences and humanities, or so says their website.

 

From the Boston University website:

 

"Most programs at Boston University award credit for test

scores of 4 or 5 on most AP examinations. For some

programs and exams, credit is awarded for a score of 3."

 

Stanford will give credit for many AP exams, as will Harvard.

 

Those are all highly competitive.

 

 

Back it up. :) Credit does not mean you a get to take a reduced course load at these schools, or graduate in less than 4 years with waived/reduced course loads via AP scores. That's what I am talking about. I was too fast/unlcear on my indignant reply, Ill grant you. I recently went through this process with private colleges and a child with 4s & 5s on APs.

 

Grauduating BU in two years this way...no. way. in. hades.

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[amey311]

I went to Russell Sage college - a private liberal arts college after taking AP Calc (AB, not BC - I don't know if there are still 2 versions of the course). I got a 4 on the exam, but had no idea how. I remember being confused for a lot of that exam.

 

Sage gave me EIGHT math credits. EIGHT. And somehow I tested into Calc 3. So maybe I understood it better than I thought? Either way, I didn't take Calc 3. As an Elementary Education major I was required to take "Foundations of Modern Math" - there was no way to get out of it. When the professor (who was also my first semester advisor) saw my high school transcript he told me to show up for the tests and that I wouldn't need to attend class to know what's going on. I was glad to have the 8 credits (plus 6 more thru University in High School Spanish my junior and senior years), but wished they did more for me.

 

DH is out of the house right now, but he went to RPI up the hill. He also took AP Calc (BC). I thought he got some credit for it as well, and he was an engineering major.

 

On a somewhat related note I think this idea that private colleges won't take AP tests as credit (because they're not rigorous enough or whatever) is a funny idea when a couple months ago there was a heated discussion about the lack of EDUCATION happening in colleges after that one "act of tea" in class at a California uni. Apparently colleges are both very rigorous AND not teaching anything.

[Caroline]

Back it up. :) Credit does not mean you a get to take a reduced course load at these schools, or graduate in less than 4 years with waived/reduced course loads via AP scores. That's what I am talking about. I was too fast/unlcear on my indignant reply, Ill grant you. I recently went through this process with private colleges and a child with 4s & 5s on APs.

 

Grauduating BU in two years this way...no. way. in. heck.

 

I have a student at MIT right now who got credit for calculus for a 5 on the AP Calculus BC credit. Yes, credit that he now doesn't have to take as an engineering student at MIT. Reduced course load.

[LibraryLover]

What sort of college gives any sort of credit for an AP score of 3??!

 

It means you did well enough in a high school class.

 

 

 

I went to Russell Sage college - a private liberal arts college after taking AP Calc (AB, not BC - I don't know if there are still 2 versions of the course). I got a 4 on the exam, but had no idea how. I remember being confused for a lot of that exam.

 

Sage gave me EIGHT math credits. EIGHT. And somehow I tested into Calc 3. So maybe I understood it better than I thought? Either way, I didn't take Calc 3. As an Elementary Education major I was required to take "Foundations of Modern Math" - there was no way to get out of it. When the professor (who was also my first semester advisor) saw my high school transcript he told me to show up for the tests and that I wouldn't need to attend class to know what's going on. I was glad to have the 8 credits (plus 6 more thru University in High School Spanish my junior and senior years), but wished they did more for me.

 

DH is out of the house right now, but he went to RPI up the hill. He also took AP Calc (BC). I thought he got some credit for it as well, and he was an engineering major.

 

On a somewhat related note I think this idea that private colleges won't take AP tests as credit (because they're not rigorous enough or whatever) is a funny idea when a couple months ago there was a heated discussion about the lack of EDUCATION happening in colleges after that one "act of tea" in class at a California uni. Apparently colleges are both very rigorous AND not teaching anything.

[LibraryLover]

I have a student at MIT right now who got credit for calculus for a 5 on the AP Calculus BC credit. Yes, credit that he now doesn't have to take as an engineering student at MIT. Reduced course load.

 

 

Is tuition reduced? Did he only take 3 (or whatever one less might be) courses that semester?

 

I can't disagree with your first person account. :) It's not my standard experience, but good for MIT for being more open. I think a 5 on that test is worth some credit, fwiw. It's still not two years waived because of AP scores, however. That story is why I reacted in a way that did sound cranky. Sorry about that!

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Joker]

UC Berkeley is a state school. Was your dh a grad of a CA high school?

 

If not, did he take fewer classes to graduate, or did he test out of a 100 level?

 

 

Yes, he's from CA and he had a reduced class load. He was accepted to Brown as well (their aid offered wasn't good enough) ~ I'll have to ask him if he knows if he would have been given credit there as well.

[LibraryLover]

Yes, he's from CA and he had a reduced class load. He was accepted to Brown as well (their aid offered wasn't good enough) ~ I'll have to ask him if he knows if he would have been given credit there as well.

 

 

 

Stiil, one class is not two years. :) Brown's loss!

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[amey311]

What sort of college gives any sort of credit for an AP score of 3??!

 

It means you did well enough in a high school class.

 

Are you asking me? I got a 4 on the AP Calculus exam. I also took my college's math placement exam and was told I tested into Calculus III (and therefore could skip Calc I and II, which would mean fewer classes to take and a potential reduction in tuition, I suppose, to the poster who was asking about that. However, a full time student was required to take at least 12 credits, so it's possible that come second semester senior year, i would've NEEDED to take fewer classes to graduate but my tuition would've covered 12-18, so I might've taken a fun elective. KWIM?)

[Perry]

Is tuition reduced? Did he only take 3 (or whatever one less might be) courses that semester?

 

I can't argue with your first person account. :) It's not my standard experience, but good for MIT for being more open. I think a 5 on that test is worth some credit, fwiw.

 

Students may earn up to 30 hours of credit in some academic areas through the College Level Examination Program (CLEP), the Advanced Placement Program (AP), and the International Baccalaureate Program (IB).

 

• Advanced Placement Program* (AP)—Iowa accepts credit for more than 30 AP exams. You can earn 3-8 s.h. of credit per test, depending on the subject and your score.

• College Level Examination Program* (CLEP)—Iowa accepts credit for several CLEP exams.

• International Baccalaureate Program* (IB)—Iowa accepts credit for several IB higher level exams—depending on the subject and your score.

 

 

 

That is 30 hours counted towards a graduation requirement. IOW, you can graduate in 3 years. I know many colleges do this. I haven't heard of giving 2 years of credit though.

 

Many colleges give credit for a score of 3 as well.

U of I

[LibraryLover]

:) I wasn't asking anyone in particular about the 3s.

 

 

Call me mean, but I don't think of a 3 as being college credit worthy.

 

I am happy to know some colleges will give credit for a 5. We applied to none of those, apparently. :tongue_smilie:

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

I haven't heard of giving 2 years of credit though.

 

I

 

 

 

That's what I was over-reacting to...;).

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

. However, a full time student was required to take at least 12 credits, so it's possible that come second semester senior year, i would've NEEDED to take fewer classes to graduate but my tuition would've covered 12-18, so I might've taken a fun elective. KWIM?)

 

 

Yep, I do know what you mean. It's not common for a full time student, ime, to be allowed to take a course load below a certain amount.

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[amey311]

I wonder if people graduating in two years are doing summer work or heavier loads in the other terms? I know there were some engineering and architecture students at DH's college who ended up taking 21 credits per semester to graduate on time for various reasons. There's usually a cap on the number of credits you can take before your tuition goes up if you're a full time student (like 18), but it might be worth it to take 21 and get out earlier rather than paying for an extra semester.

 

So, if a "traditional" student takes 30 credits per year (15/semester) x 4 years = 120 credits over 8 semesters.

 

If you bump that and do 21 credits, you'll get out in 6. If you've come with some AP/CLEP/Whatever exams, you'll shrink that more. Even if you don't, it might work out that the 3 extra credits x 6 semesters is still less than paying for 8 traditional semesters.

[Perry]

 

 

Call me mean, but I don't think of a 3 as being college credit worthy.

I don't think it is either.