Douglas Wilson

[Mimm]

 

This guy?

[Supertechmom]

Douglas Wilson and James Nance are co-authors of a logic series published by Logos Press.

 

Wilson is a coauthor of a Latin Grammar text.

 

Wilson has written a number of books, including Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning and The Case for Classical Christian Education. These books were the inspiration for the foundation of a number of classical Christian schools of various denominations. Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning was one of the books that popularized the Dorothy Sayers essay The Lost Tools of Learning. (Both books promoted the idea of forming classically oriented schools, even if they started as small schools formed by a handful of families in less than ideal settings.)

 

Logos School and New St. Andrew's College were founded in part by Wilson in Moscow, Idaho. Wilson is on the board of Logos School (where his children attended and where some of his grandchildren attend). He is a fellow at New St. Andrew's College.

 

Credenda/Agenda is a magazine edited by Douglas Wilson.

 

Veritas Press is the publishing art of a classical Christian school, Veritas Academy, formed many years ago in PA. They were inspired in part by the Wilson book Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning. Douglas Wilson's essays have appeared in the Veritas Press catalog (most recently the 2009-10 catalog). They also carry several of his books.

 

Wilson edited some of the volumes of Omnibus, which is published by Veritas Press.

 

Whether you would say he is "behind" either Veritas Press or Omnibus is subjective. I was encouraged in our early homeschooling days by both of his classical education books. However, I do not endorse slavery, violence toward women or abuse of children.

ETA: I would not say that DW was "behind" either our home schooling or our classical bent.

 

thank you. That list makes it clear what books to review and double check for view points. though I am not sure I own any beyond the logic one ( isn't that ironic he wrote one?) and maybe Canon Press that Bill mentioned.:confused: I'll have to look.

[JennifersLost]

I'm glad someone brought up his link to that logic book, because that's one we used for awhile because of TWTM/this board and it's an awful book - and not because of his views - just because it was very illogical! Even the kids were able to point out all the fallacies in it! I finally threw it out.

 

No wonder he's argued himself into all sorts of twisted positions.

[Spy Car]

I'm glad someone brought up his link to that logic book, because that's one we used for awhile because of TWTM/this board and it's an awful book - and not because of his views - just because it was very illogical! Even the kids were able to point out all the fallacies in it! I finally threw it out.

 

No wonder he's argued himself into all sorts of twisted positions.

 

It is an abysmally bad "Logic" book.

 

It was my introduction to Douglas Wilson, back in the days when I was very naive and thought books were actually about the subjects they purported to teach, rather than being worldview polemics. I'm a lot more cynical now.

 

Bill

[Christy B]

Exactly how bad would it be if one was to pray for a couple to be completely infertile?

 

I would say "amen" to that prayer in this situation.

[Rivka]

Wait, what? Duesberg the AIDS denialist? Or someone else?

 

Not familiar with him, Rivka. Who is Duesberg?

 

He's a crank scientist who says that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.

 

I see posts on the web by a Douglas Wilson, promulgating Duesberg's theories, but I don't think it's the Douglas Wilson.

[elizabeth]

I found these articles to be useful for those who want to search by case name.

http://www.newwest.net/index.php/main/article/9677/

http://www.newwest.net/index.php/city/article/9225/C136/L136/

 

At this point these are facts. There is a record. It is for want of a better word, an abomination.

[elizabeth]

Rumors. Wow, quite a conversation. Any facts flying around? Oh, nah, who needs them?

(By the way, I happen to agree with many of the analyses. Just hate when we get to throwing the "I heard..." around.)

 

http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR_2005_02027/

Here is the sex offenders picture and the letters from the "church" if you need more proof I cannot help but think you are defending the indefensible. On the other hand I do respect a demand for legal documentation beyond rumor as well. I hope this clarifes things for you. This is the criminal complaint and plea agreement along with Wilson's letter.

Edited August 3, 2011 by elizabeth

[justasque]

So Doug WILSON wrote "Emotional factors are of considerable significance in successful human conception." (From The Myth of Slave Breeding section of Southern Slavery As It Was), which sounds dangerously close to the 'rape victims don't get pregnant' theory.

 

And Doug PHILLIPS who seems to advocate "watchful waiting" as the most appropriate treatment for an ectopic pregnancy, because "...those theories which justify the killing of the unborn child on the basis of ... the life of the mother (ectopic pregnancies) are completely false because they are based on unbiblical and humanistic ethics..."

[FaithManor]

It is an abysmally bad "Logic" book.

 

It was my introduction to Douglas Wilson, back in the days when I was very naive and thought books were actually about the subjects they purported to teach, rather than being worldview polemics. I'm a lot more cynical now.

 

Bill

 

:lol: I remember the "good ole days of innocence" and would be happy to join you in donning the "grumpy curmudgeon" hat!

 

 

Oh, and the "logic" book is so illogical that it reminds me of that saying "a little knowledge can be dangerous".

 

Faith - edited to say, Oh bummer...it looks like the pic of the curmudgeon hate didn't load properly

[AngelBee]

You are mixing up your Doug's of patriarchy/reconstructionist ilk. Doug Wilson is involved with Christ Church in the Moscow, Idaho area which also sports a classical school and St. Andrews College which teaches the same theology.

 

Doug Phillips is the ceo and founder of Vision Forum. They are very similar in their ideas and practice. So, it's quite easy to mix up these two.

 

Faith

I just realized I was mixing them up too! :001_huh:

[Krissi]

You got it, Karis. I'm not even interested in joining the frenzy, although I can understand if some who are clearly educated on the matter would be upset and take a position. Anyway-you took the words right out of my mouth. Just noticing, which I probably should have kept to myself. :grouphug:

Krissi may be referring the hive mind mob mentality vibe.

 

She wasn't defending.

 

Why would she?

[Krissi]

:iagree:with Elinor Everywhere...

Edited August 3, 2011 by Krissi
I didn't include her reply, otherwise this makes no sense!

[Ellesmere]

He's a crank scientist who says that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.

 

I see posts on the web by a Douglas Wilson, promulgating Duesberg's theories, but I don't think it's the Douglas Wilson.

 

A man named Douglas Wilson, pastor of Christ Church, Moscow, wrote a book called Fidelity: What It Means To Be A One-Woman Man. In it, Wilson states that the virus is harmless. If that is not the Douglas Wilson referred to in this thread, then let me know and I'll correct my post.

[Impish]

So Doug WILSON wrote "Emotional factors are of considerable significance in successful human conception." (From The Myth of Slave Breeding section of Southern Slavery As It Was), which sounds dangerously close to the 'rape victims don't get pregnant' theory.

 

And Doug PHILLIPS who seems to advocate "watchful waiting" as the most appropriate treatment for an ectopic pregnancy, because "...those theories which justify the killing of the unborn child on the basis of ... the life of the mother (ectopic pregnancies) are completely false because they are based on unbiblical and humanistic ethics..."

Uh...I've had an ectopic pregnancy.

 

The baby doesn't develop properly. There's no way to remove the baby from the tube and implant it into the uterus. There is no possible chance for survival for the developing baby. None. Its a matter of time before the tube ruptures, baby dies...and the only question is if Mom does as well.

[AngelBee]

Uh...I've had an ectopic pregnancy.

 

The baby doesn't develop properly. There's no way to remove the baby from the tube and implant it into the uterus. There is no possible chance for survival for the developing baby. None. Its a matter of time before the tube ruptures, baby dies...and the only question is if Mom does as well.

:grouphug:

[Mommy22alyns]

Sitler confessed to more than a dozen victims in three states as part of his plea bargain agreement.

 

This summer, Doug Wilson married Steven Sitler to a young woman, after a courtship was set up by an elder of Wilson's church. By the tenets of Wilson's form of Christianity, she'll be expected to obey him and submit to him, considering him the spiritual leader of their family.

 

I wonder if she will be exempted from the expectation of having children. Lots of children.

 

http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com/2011/05/marriage-part-2-with-letter-to-ed.html

 

 

Ohmydeargoodness. I really think I need to be ill.

[Rivka]

A man named Douglas Wilson, pastor of Christ Church, Moscow, wrote a book called Fidelity: What It Means To Be A One-Woman Man. In it, Wilson states that the virus is harmless. If that is not the Douglas Wilson referred to in this thread, then let me know and I'll correct my post.

 

No, that's definitely this Doug Wilson. Holy carp.

 

You're right, you can "search inside" on Amazon and find this passage:

Having said this, a few things should be said about AIDS. If by AIDS you mean that the HIV virus is present in your body, then I would refer you to the book Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter Duesberg. It is quite possible that your situation does not warrant abstention from sex at all - but only because the HIV virus is harmless.

 

That's just... wow. Um. Go out and have sex with your wife if you're HIV positive! Nothing could possibly go wrong! Don't use a condom, of course, because that would be sinful! :banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

I was about to say that I didn't understand how Wilson's brand of crazy meets up with Duesberg's brand of crazy, but actually, upon further reflection, I do. Duesberg's theory is that gay men (and presumably Africans, I suppose) sickened and died in unimaginable numbers because they were dirty, disgusting people who did dirty, disgusting things. Not because they were infected with a virus that could also infect nice heterosexual folks.

[kiana]

Wow, just wow.

 

Because of course there isn't any such thing as people who have never done drugs infected with AIDS through an unfaithful spouse.

 

Nope, none at all. They must all have been sekret drug users. Live a clean and Godly life and diseases will just shy away from you!

[FaithManor]

No, that's definitely this Doug Wilson. Holy carp.

 

You're right, you can "search inside" on Amazon and find this passage:

 

 

That's just... wow. Um. Go out and have sex with your wife if you're HIV positive! Nothing could possibly go wrong! Don't use a condom, of course, because that would be sinful! :banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

I was about to say that I didn't understand how Wilson's brand of crazy meets up with Duesberg's brand of crazy, but actually, upon further reflection, I do. Duesberg's theory is that gay men (and presumably Africans, I suppose) sickened and died in unimaginable numbers because they were dirty, disgusting people who did dirty, disgusting things. Not because they were infected with a virus that could also infect nice heterosexual folks.

 

I stick by my assertion that the man is depraved! HIV is harmless so let's go spreading it around????? :001_huh:

 

I was also sickened to discover that Katie Travis's marriage to the serial child molester took place on 6/11/2011 - my 23rd wedding anniversary. I hope I can just push that to the back of my brain next year when it rolls around. :cursing:

 

It's so tragic! This man is on lifetime probation - another violation - and he's going back to jail for a long time. The prosecution and parole board have already said that the terms of his probation are that he can NEVER live in the same house with minor children. So, what does Wilson and Iverson see happening here? I seriously expect that they will declare themselves above the law since it would be against their beliefs for Sitler to live apart from his wife and children. He's going to breed future victims and she is going to live with the consequences. Oh, I'm sure that Wilson and Iverson believe all of the research done on pedophiles is "bunk" and that marriage to a good, Christian girl, will "cure" him. Then they'll expect her and the children to be on the receiving end of his twisted appetites and put on the appearance of "normal" to proof they were right.

 

The court documents are very teling. The parole board, prosecutor, and judge were adamantly opposed to the marriage but there is no Idaho law that would allow them to prevent it. He was told in court that he would not be allowed to live with children, period. This was after he declared his intention to the parole board to begin a family. So, they've drawn their line in the sand. Since the whole dominion movement is based on having large families, it's a foregone conclusion that she will be pregnant soon barring fertility problems (and as mean as this sounds, if Katie is too immature to understand the ramifications of marrrying such a man, then she is too immature to be a mother so I would be pleased if she had infertility issues), then there going to be a battle to wage. Wilson will be on one side claiming that his teachings trump the law. I pray that the law wins and that Sitler ends up back in jail for a very long time for probation violations. According to court documents, he violated probation in 2007 and was considered high risk of recidivism by his therapist. He was engaging in voyeurism...very, very creepy!

 

Of course, what then, happens to Katie and her baby? Is she a pariah outcast? Is she shunned from the community because she's an embarassment? Is her husband's continued depravity then blamed on her because she was supposed to "cure" it by being "everything" to this man?Is her father or her grandfather (Ed Iverson is her grandpa and the one that arranged the courtship) required to care for her financially? Women aren't supposed to live alone according to their beliefs, so does she move back in with them and will they take her? If she does have to move back to the home of such vile men, what kind of future would it be for her and her child? I cannot imagine any outcome of this that does not end in human tragedy!

 

Faith

[kiana]

Yeah Faith, plus I wouldn't be at all surprised if she gets told the reason he's reoffending is because she just isn't having enough or varied enough intercourse.

 

Blech.

[kchara]

I'm pretty sure Ryan White would disagree with Wilson and the crack-pot's take on HIV and AIDS. What ever lovin' morons. Scary, scary morons. I'm learning a LOT from this thread and from the DP one as well. That's one of the (many) reasons I love this board!

[Ellesmere]

I knew enough about DW to know that I wanted to stay away. I've been further enlightened now & want to vomit. It saddens & angers me that some people, even after knowing some of this vile information, will still find value in some of his writing. For me, there's no "keep what you like & toss the rest" for this man.

:iagree:

 

http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR_2005_02027/

Here is the sex offenders picture and the letters from the "church" if you need more proof I cannot help but think you are defending the indefensible. On the other hand I do respect a demand for legal documentation beyond rumor as well. I hope this clarifes things for you. This is the criminal complaint and plea agreement along with Wilson's letter.

 

No, that's definitely this Doug Wilson. Holy carp.

 

You're right, you can "search inside" on Amazon and find this passage:

 

I was about to say that I didn't understand how Wilson's brand of crazy meets up with Duesberg's brand of crazy, but actually, upon further reflection, I do. Duesberg's theory is that gay men (and presumably Africans, I suppose) sickened and died in unimaginable numbers because they were dirty, disgusting people who did dirty, disgusting things. Not because they were infected with a virus that could also infect nice heterosexual folks.

 

Many thanks to you and the others who have stepped up to inform and educate. If anyone admired him, I can understand how hard it is to discover these things. But his views are indefensible.

 

I understand how someone could initially be attracted to DW's teachings if they didn't know anything about his views.

 

But if anyone managed to get through this thread and the supporting documents that illustrate how sick the teachings are without becoming horrified at what Douglas Wilson teaches, I'm not sure I could understand.

[Rivka]

It's so tragic! This man is on lifetime probation - another violation - and he's going back to jail for a long time. The prosecution and parole board have already said that the terms of his probation are that he can NEVER live in the same house with minor children. So, what does Wilson and Iverson see happening here? I seriously expect that they will declare themselves above the law since it would be against their beliefs for Sitler to live apart from his wife and children. He's going to breed future victims and she is going to live with the consequences. Oh, I'm sure that Wilson and Iverson believe all of the research done on pedophiles is "bunk" and that marriage to a good, Christian girl, will "cure" him. Then they'll expect her and the children to be on the receiving end of his twisted appetites and put on the appearance of "normal" to proof they were right.

 

I'm glad to see you say that the parole board won't let him live with minor children, because the thing I'd seen quoted before was that he wasn't allowed to be around minors without "competent adult supervision." I was afraid that this poor young woman was going to be considered "competent adult supervision, when she's been raised all her life to believe that she needs to submit to her husband completely. (Not that I think she would knowingly submit to him abusing the children, but I think that in the context of their beliefs it would be hard for her to resist him if he said, for example, that it was all right for her to go make dinner in the kitchen while he was with the kids in the living room.)

 

Of course, what then, happens to Katie and her baby? Is she a pariah outcast? Is she shunned from the community because she's an embarassment? Is her husband's continued depravity then blamed on her because she was supposed to "cure" it by being "everything" to this man?Is her father or her grandfather (Ed Iverson is her grandpa and the one that arranged the courtship) required to care for her financially? Women aren't supposed to live alone according to their beliefs, so does she move back in with them and will they take her? If she does have to move back to the home of such vile men, what kind of future would it be for her and her child? I cannot imagine any outcome of this that does not end in human tragedy!

 

Me either. And the horribly ironic part of this is that a major justification of the "courtship" movement is supposed to be that parents have greater wisdom and discernment than young adults. They're supposed to be able to see beyond the shortsighted urges and opinions that young people have, to encourage marriages with a greater chance of lasting success.

 

The "guidance" that Katie Travis was provided by her elders is just a sick joke. What kind of person even introduces a sheltered young woman to a convicted pedophile, much less encourages her to marry him?!

Edited August 3, 2011 by Rivka

[SonshineLearner]

Wow, even I am shocked. I found out on a message board (HSing one) one time that there was a mom who promised never to leave her husband with the children again...alone. But, that she was, and had just kinda "lied". I tried to figure out how to turn her in to CPS. It was Tx and hard, and the yahoo group moderator erased her posts as to give her family "privacy". Crazy scary! :( Anyway, I had enough info to get CPS... or whatever it was... started... but I don't think it went anywhere. I was brought up in a "submit to your husband" home, too. BUT, with a brain. I totally don't get why women don't understand that "submitting" isn't the same as throwing your children "under the bus". I'm pretty sure that molestation crosses the line. I'm not sure what authority I'd call... after I x'd someone who molested a child. :(

[Sebastian (a lady)]

He is also the man behind Canon Press which publishes a variety of books on Latin, family values, theology, education and other topics.

 

Bill

 

You're right. I missed that one.

[TravelingChris]

I am just so sickened by all these revelations. I am very glad this board exists and I found out, since DW and DP are popular figures in some homeschooling circles. But I don't think that the Omnibus has these issues in them. I know some homeschoolers using these who are definitely not patriarchal or believing any of these weird and disturbing beliefs.

[Onceuponatime]

lol, no. My God is male.

 

 

Forgive me for butting in, but this fascinates me. How do you know your God is male? Besides the Bible using male words like his, he, and, him, what would make him male? Do you believe God has a body? If not, how does pure spirit have maleness or femaleness?

 

This is not just idle curiosity. I've been studying the historical concept of God through the ages. I'm interested in your answer.

[Jen500]

I am just so sickened by all these revelations. I am very glad this board exists and I found out, since DW and DP are popular figures in some homeschooling circles. But I don't think that the Omnibus has these issues in them. I know some homeschoolers using these who are definitely not patriarchal or believing any of these weird and disturbing beliefs.

 

Omnibus isn't a product that would fit our needs anyways, but if Doug Wilson benefits financially from the purchase of VP/Omnibus products, I definitely wouldn't help support him.

[tntgoodwin]

Forgive me for butting in, but this fascinates me. How do you know your God is male? Besides the Bible using male words like his, he, and, him, what would make him male? Do you believe God has a body? If not, how does pure spirit have maleness or femaleness?

 

This is not just idle curiosity. I've been studying the historical concept of God through the ages. I'm interested in your answer.

 

 

I believe He has no body or gender. Jesus was male while on Earth , and God is referred to as male throughout the Bible.

[justamouse]

I believe He has no body or gender. Jesus was male while on Earth , and God is referred to as male throughout the Bible.

 

And, as Wisdom, He is referred to as She. There's actually many places God is referred to as a female.

[Sevilla]

A quick google brings up the Vimeo of Steven Sitler and Katie Travis's wedding conducted by Douglas Wilson:

 

Katie and Steven's Wedding Video

[Mimm]

A quick google brings up the Vimeo of Steven Sitler and Katie Travis's wedding conducted by Douglas Wilson:

 

Katie and Steven's Wedding Video

 

Didn't watch the whole thing, but I did find the vows and she promised to obey. :p

[herbalgirl]

I can't get it to play. :confused:

[Spy Car]

Didn't watch the whole thing, but I did find the vows and she promised to obey. :p

 

When they cut to the little flower girls my heart broke.

 

What are these people thinking????

 

Bill

[Snickerdoodle]

Did that poor girl know beforehand about his record?

[FaithManor]

When they cut to the little flower girls my heart broke.

 

What are these people thinking????

 

Bill

 

 

You and me both Bill! It was just gut-wrenching because those precious little babes, those darling souls, are in line for the brain washing. And on another note, where in the @#$%^&* did he find four groomsmen???? Seriously, four human males who could not possibly be so ignorant (GIVEN THAT HE WAS MARRIED IN THE TOWN OF HIS ARREST AND INCARCERATION, HE IS ON PROBATION FOR LIFE AND WILL BE ADMITTED TO THE STATE PEN IF HE VIOLATES AGAIN, IT WAS IN THE LOCAL NEWSPAPERS - MANY EDITORIALS WERE RUN) as to NOT know what kind of slime he is???? Is there some club, "scums R us", where one can pay other monsters to dress up in tuxes for your wedding to the next victim???????

 

I get that the bridesmaids are very likely unladies already successfully brainwashed into thinking that at 23, if you don't have a husband, you are destined for a some sort of godless old spinsterdom (horror of horrors) so better to marry a sleeze-ball felon than none at all, I get that. I get that through no fault of their own, their brains have been checked at the door with their caretakers - a bunch of sick, twisted men. But, FOUR GUYS DONNED TUXEDOS AND STOOD NEXT TO MR. SLIMY AS HIS WITNESSES! Of course, the slimiest of all, Mr. Wilson himself standing there proclaiming some divine "it's all good" blessing on the event.

 

I have nothing but the deepest contempt I can muster for Doug Wilson and Ed Iverson (Katie's grandfather - he was actively involved in arranging the courtship).

 

Watching that video gave me chills....the nasty kind.

 

Faith

[Hedgehog]

Interesting thread and topic - I've been discussing it with dh. Neither of us can fathom what is going on in the minds of these people, that they could consent to - nay, encourage - such a man to marry, especially given that it is expected that he will have children. I suppose they must sincerely believe that he has repented.

 

My main issue with this is that the advice given to a recovering alcoholic or drug user is to stay right away from alcohol/drugs because the temptation to start using them again is so strong. Why would this be any different? Clearly the man has a problem, and surely it would be more loving of the pastor of his church to encourage him to stay well away from temptation? Why walk so close to the edge?

[tntgoodwin]

I support the death penalty for murder and most instances of rape, and child molestation.

[EthiopianFood]

Interesting thread and topic - I've been discussing it with dh. Neither of us can fathom what is going on in the minds of these people, that they could consent to - nay, encourage - such a man to marry, especially given that it is expected that he will have children. I suppose they must sincerely believe that he has repented.

 

My main issue with this is that the advice given to a recovering alcoholic or drug user is to stay right away from alcohol/drugs because the temptation to start using them again is so strong. Why would this be any different? Clearly the man has a problem, and surely it would be more loving of the pastor of his church to encourage him to stay well away from temptation? Why walk so close to the edge?

 

Because s*xual immorality is a choice. This is how people can "choose not to be gay." ;)

[Laurie4b]

nm

Edited August 3, 2011 by Laurie4b

[FaithManor]

Interesting thread and topic - I've been discussing it with dh. Neither of us can fathom what is going on in the minds of these people, that they could consent to - nay, encourage - such a man to marry, especially given that it is expected that he will have children. I suppose they must sincerely believe that he has repented.

 

My main issue with this is that the advice given to a recovering alcoholic or drug user is to stay right away from alcohol/drugs because the temptation to start using them again is so strong. Why would this be any different? Clearly the man has a problem, and surely it would be more loving of the pastor of his church to encourage him to stay well away from temptation? Why walk so close to the edge?

 

 

I would suspect that "they" believe (blech :tongue_smilie:) that his pedophilia can be "cured" by giving him a woman to pervertedly abuse. I would imagine that it does not bother these men.not.one.little.bit. what horrors may await her in the future because, after all, they set it up. They stamped it with their seal of approval. They know what the court report says; they know what his therapist said about his extreme danger of recidivism. They know that a judge, the court psychologist, the prosecutor, the therapist, and the parole board all said they were adamantly opposed to the marriage but there was no Idahoan law that they could enforce to stop the union. And yet, and yet, these men happily went along with it.

 

I've seen animals that show more care for the offspring of the pack than these foul minds do. But, again this is a sect that believes that man reigns supreme, that his needs, his whims, his wants, his whatever are what counts and the woman is there to fulfill that/to help him achieve his goals. So, given the extreme angles of the teaching, and the degredation of women within their midst, it is sadly not all that suprising that they would have no conscience against the sacrifice of one of their daughters for the "redeeming" of a man. The man is what counts. The girl does not and apparently even her father has bought into this hook.line.and.sinker.

 

As for repentance....well, a truly repentent perv...one that did not want to engage in such behavior again, would not be putting himself deliberately in a position to do it again. He would NOT stand in court and after being reminded that he is on probation for the rest of his life which means he can NEVER live under the same roof with minor children EVER again or he will be returned to jail, say to the court that he has every intention of beginning a family with this girl within one year. (Oh yes, I've read the court transcript and that is how it went.) That is not repentence. That is not wanting to change. That is just, in my opinion, being brazen enough to announce his intentions to breed his next victims instead of pursuing the neighborhood kids.

 

I took the time yesterday to read the court documents. It was disturbing to say the least.

 

Faith

[KnitWit]

I have never been a fan of Doug Wilson (or Phillips), but this situation of the wedding is so...disturbing. I just don't know who this man thinks he is.

[eloquacious]

Interesting thread and topic - I've been discussing it with dh. Neither of us can fathom what is going on in the minds of these people, that they could consent to - nay, encourage - such a man to marry, especially given that it is expected that he will have children. I suppose they must sincerely believe that he has repented.

 

My main issue with this is that the advice given to a recovering alcoholic or drug user is to stay right away from alcohol/drugs because the temptation to start using them again is so strong. Why would this be any different? Clearly the man has a problem, and surely it would be more loving of the pastor of his church to encourage him to stay well away from temptation? Why walk so close to the edge?

 

Presumably the pastor believes that by engaging in a fulfilled and loving marital sexual relationship, he would have no cause to "stray." At least, that is the only way I can explain it to myself.

[eloquacious]

But, again this is a sect that believes that man reigns supreme, that his needs, his whims, his wants, his whatever are what counts and the woman is there to fulfill that/to help him achieve his goals. So, given the extreme angles of the teaching, and the degredation of women within their midst, it is sadly not all that suprising that they would have no conscience against the sacrifice of one of their daughters for the "redeeming" of a man. The man is what counts. The girl does not and apparently even her father has bought into this hook.line.and.sinker.

 

Please explain who "they" here are. The family in question, or the church, or his denomination? How far would you take it? And what precisely do you know of his church and denomination?

[justamouse]

Presumably the pastor believes that by engaging in a fulfilled and loving marital sexual relationship, he would have no cause to "stray." At least, that is the only way I can explain it to myself.

 

And, one lucky day, when she realizes she's in a trap, if she tries to get out and they'll blame her for not being 'submissive' enough and then she gets the opportunity to be spiritually abused and shunned for not obeying them. (read the link that Ellie posted, Jen's Gems)

Edited August 4, 2011 by justamouse

[elizabeth]

Presumably the pastor believes that by engaging in a fulfilled and loving marital sexual relationship, he would have no cause to "stray." At least, that is the only way I can explain it to myself.

 

Child molesting is not about straying. Or not being sexually fulfilled. It is about power, control and being a sick puppy. The cure rate is abysmal. He will reoffend, the question is will he be caught.Being caught is not likely when married to someone who buys into patriarchal systems of authority. The whole self policing within the religious community thing is a bad idea , ask former Catholics. I am one. If you have children might I suggest that you read some information about childhood sexual abuse and exploitation written by licensed psychologists or social workers as your beliefs about the cause of said behavior are not accurate nor are they based on what professionals have come to understand about the behaviour. I am not saying this to be cruel but rather because I cannot abide silence and complicity in letting naivete put innocents at risk. I hope you take this in the spirit in which it is said. As a licensed professional who deals with this issue far, far more than I ever imagined decades ago, I know of that which I speak.

[eloquacious]

And, one lucky day, when she realizes she's in a trap, if she tries to get out and they'll blame her for not being 'submissive' enough and then she gets the opportunity to be spiritually abused and shunned for not obeying them. (read the link that Ellie posted, Jen's Gems)

 

Once again, who are "they?"

 

I know the Doug Phillips and Doug Wilson distinction is hard for some, but you cannot apply what the blog Ellie wrote said to Doug Wilson just like that, because aren't all "weirdo pastors" the same?

[justamouse]

Once again, who are "they?"

 

I know the Doug Phillips and Doug Wilson distinction is hard for some, but you cannot apply what the blog Ellie wrote said to Doug Wilson just like that, because aren't all "weirdo pastors" the same?

 

They *both* believe in extreme patriarchy. And Wilson, on a scale of sick, seems to win the prize.

[eloquacious]

Child molesting is not about straying. Or not being sexually fulfilled. It is about power, control and being a sick puppy. The cure rate is abysmal. He will reoffend, the question is will he be caught.Being caught is not likely when married to someone who buys into patriarchal systems of authority. The whole self policing within the religious community thing is a bad idea , ask former Catholics. I am one. If you have children might I suggest that you read some information about childhood sexual abuse and exploitation written by licensed psychologists or social workers as your beliefs about the cause of said behavior are not accurate nor are they based on what professionals have come to understand about the behaviour. I am not saying this to be cruel but rather because I cannot abide silence and complicity in letting naivete put innocents at risk. I hope you take this in the spirit in which it is said. As a licensed professional who deals with this issue far, far more than I ever imagined decades ago, I know of that which I speak.

 

 

You do not need to educate me, I am not speaking of what I think of the matter, merely trying to give the benefit of the doubt to a fellow believer. I do not know his reasoning behind this, but knowing what I know of him outside of the context of this thread, I have to believe that his intentions are good, no matter how misguided. Had my pastor been the minister at this wedding, I would be more than a little terrified, too. I can't conceive of his (that is, my pastor's) going against the state like this, too ... I think that's what bothers me the most. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's refers to more than just taxes. If you believe, as conservative Christians of a reformed bent most often do, that the power of justice should be in the hands of the state, then you should abide by their decisions, and the spirit of them, not look for loopholes to the letter. Just because there was no law against it does not make it right.

 

That being said, people of faith believe things that others can't understand, sometimes with cause. I was bulimic for 8 years, until one night in college I cried out to God (if he existed) to heal me. I have never since then had problems, even though I've been told many times that bulimia is like alcoholism and I would always be tempted.

 

That being said, I do not apply my situation here. I am not saying that I believe God healed this man, esp. given the court documents and the analysis of his character, only that I have experienced miraculous healing, and perhaps this pastor believes it has occurred here, too.