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I can't think he supports slavery as happened in the South. Perhaps he's talking about slaves in the Bible? And confusing the two? And even slaves in the Bible, did they not get freed after a maximum of 7 years? Perhaps that's not correct.

The slavery that is talked about in the Bible in context of Jewish law refers to Bond Servants, and was used as a means for repaying debts. Abuse of Slaves(Bond Servants), and forced slavery was not condoned by God. Also these servants only served for a period of time depending on the debt or crime, and were given a choice at the end of their service whether they wanted to go free or to choose willingly to stay with their masters.

 

I do not know anything about Doug Wilson.;)

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One note. One wonderful aspect of classical education is that facts are important. We carefully gather all the facts from primary sources in context and then logically think them through before speaking. I'm not really seeing that on this thread.

 

 

I don't want to go back and reread the thread, but here are three things I remember that were presented with specific linked references to primary sources:

 

1) Doug Wilson's slavery pamphlet claimed that slaves only worked a few easy hours a day, and had the rest of their time free to goof off.

 

2) Doug Wilson presided over the courtship and marriage of a young woman to a convicted serial pedophile.

 

3) In one of his published books, searchable on Amazon, Doug Wilson recommended that an HIV+ man have sex with his wife without using condoms, and promoted the idea that HIV is harmless.

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Um, wow. Harsh much?

Maybe (ETA: unsinkable's post was) a little harsh but Mrs. Mungo said what needed to be said:

"Gossip is not a polite word to describe well-researched shared information."

 

I sympathized with those struggling to see the unpleasant truth about DW's teachings. I never said he couldn't possibly be sincere (which doesn't equal correct) with a high regard for his version of God, respectful in his interactions with his family, or a seemingly decent fellow. I've known enough people who teach wrong or dangerous things that are really sweet and utterly misled to paint them as big, bad monsters.

 

BrandieRose, I brought up one DW's teachings from his own books. A couple of people questioned it and I offered to retract if I was mistaken. No one was able to disprove it. How that or the other primary sources mentioned can be accused of being "gossip" makes as much sense as defending DW.

Edited by Clairelise
clarification
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My comment was not directed at Mrs Mungo, but at "unsinkable," who made an assumption about the motives and intentions of the poster who first revived the thread.

 

First, those who are new to such forums might not understand that it is not always in the best interests of the group to revive contentious threads. Secondly, how precisely is this self-serving? If anything, it has virtually assured that the poster in question will be loathed by many here by virtue of being associated with Pastor Wilson.

 

All that to say, I thought "unsinkable" was unnecessarily harsh, and rude.

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Did anyone else get an unpleasant PM from BrandieRose?

Oh boy.

 

BR, I understand that it might be difficult to see what he is presenting to the world vs what he tries to present to those that sit under him. I've seen that same sort of contradiction amoungst other pastors I've known. However, the man WILL be judged by his words, written and stated. Just as RC Sproul, RC Jr, and numerous others. Some I've met, some have well known audio sermons. However, the reality is, these men are flawed, like everyone else. And when they put something out there and proclaim it, they will be judged by it. This is not gossip; it is discussion of his stated views and how those views are received. You can't expect everyone to think he is just wonderful when he states and writes some of what he does (and yes, I've read a few of his books and he was often brought up for discussion amoungst Reformed circles...both the good, the bad, and the ugly of his words and writings.

Edited by mommaduck
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There is a real difference between gossip and warning.

 

If I discuss (for a purely hypothetical example) a girl I know who cheats on her boyfriend, that's gossip.

 

If a friend of mine is thinking of asking her on a date and has asked my opinion, and I happen to know she has cheated on several boyfriends before, I would be remiss to not give him the information. What he does with the (factual) information is up to him.

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Did anyone else get an unpleasant PM from BrandieRose?

 

Not me. It is very clear she does not understand her pastor's position on American slavery as her synopsis of his purported views is diametrically opposed to his published positions.

 

Should she read this post, it might be edifying for her to read Douglas Wilson's justifications of American slavey (something that as a self-described Paleo-Confederate he fully approved of), and then appologize for spreading misinformation and sending unpleasant emails.

 

Bill

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Thanks, friends. I'm glad to hear that I was the only "lucky" one. I am not susceptible to shaming attempts with religious overtones, but I know that others here have backgrounds/experiences which would make that kind of language more upsetting.

 

Responding meant going back and rereading a lot of ugly things about Steven Sitler so that I could provide her with accurate links, so that was unpleasant. I will happily collect those :grouphug: based on that. But otherwise she missed her target.

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I went through the LOC site and read the narratives for Maryland, because that's where I live. Some ex-slaves did say that they had been treated well. More than half described harsh and brutal treatment. Some reported that they personally had been treated well (one was the son of his owner, for example) but that other slaves on the plantation were treated horribly. Oddly enough, none of them supported Wilson's claim (in his pamphlet) that slaves only did three or four hours of easy work per day.

 

Furthermore, IIRC, ex-slaves who were interviewed by a white person were far more likely to report good treatment than those interviewed by a black person. Some people were interviewed by both and had very disparate responses.

 

Childhood conditioning dies hard.

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Elizabeth, you quoted DW as saying:

"Some Christians balk at having a sympathetic view of the South because they know that racism is evil. This following is a very important point to emphasize. Like abolitionism, all forms of race hatred or racial vainglory are forms of rebellion against God. Such things are to be vigorously opposed because the Word of God opposes them. In brief, God has raised up all nations from one man (Acts 17:26). We are all cousins. And not only are the races connected through God's creation of Adam, we are united (this time in harmony) in the redemption purchased by the Son of God. "

 

Does he really teach that abolitionism is sin? That those who beleive that one human (made in God's image) should not own another (made in God's image as well)

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Doug Wilson was my pastor for 10 years. He is a very thoughtful, kind man. I have watched so many broken marriages and family relationships healed through his counceling. He does have a lot of controversy surrounding him, but I've never found any of it to be true.

 

He is not "pro-slavery" in the way we had slavery in the U.S. In fact he is very much against it - and has said so many times. He simply believes we should have followed England's example in getting rid of it. Sadly, people have translated this as "pro-slavery".

 

I personally love his books. He has a very high regard for God and for the story God is playing out in this world. His love and excitement for what God is doing is contagious. If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer. Or you can ask him yourself at http://www.canonwired.com/

 

His blog is http://www.dougwils.com/

 

Don't mean to sound like a fan club. I just hate it when Christians gossip about other Christians without having the facts. Pastor Wilson has had a lot of that.

 

Brandie

 

Pardon me while I roll my eyes. It is not "gossip about another Christian" when we evaluate a pastor's teachings. In fact, the Bereans did this in the Bible and were extolled for it.

 

ETA: Oops, didn't realize this was was a VERY old thread. Sorry.

Edited by pfamilygal
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Elizabeth, you quoted DW as saying:

"Some Christians balk at having a sympathetic view of the South because they know that racism is evil. This following is a very important point to emphasize. Like abolitionism, all forms of race hatred or racial vainglory are forms of rebellion against God. Such things are to be vigorously opposed because the Word of God opposes them. In brief, God has raised up all nations from one man (Acts 17:26). We are all cousins. And not only are the races connected through God's creation of Adam, we are united (this time in harmony) in the redemption purchased by the Son of God. "

 

Does he really teach that abolitionism is sin? That those who beleive that one human (made in God's image) should not own another (made in God's image as well)

 

The entire monograph is available here: http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/slavery/southern_slavery_as_it_was.htm

 

This is also the source of the "Slaves only worked 3-4 hours a day" quote.

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In the link to Wilson's writings on slavery that I read, he condemns the same crimes that you condemn.

 

 

But he fails to recognize that slavery itself, the owning of another human being, is a crime. Being nice to your slaves doesn't make owning them ok.

 

Tara

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But he fails to recognize that slavery itself, the owning of another human being, is a crime. Being nice to your slaves doesn't make owning them ok.

 

Tara

 

 

Owning slaves was not considered a crime. At one time it was legal.

 

No, it's not ok. Not cool. Not moral. Not Equitable...

 

But at one time, culturally, it was accepted.

 

Is this man addressing slavery as an institution in the past or still advocating for it today?

 

(Morality, Ethics, Legality... sigh)

 

While there are many non-blacks on here in the U.S.A. around the world TODAY who boldly speak out against slavery NOW, how many would have spoken out boldly THEN?

 

(when the culture reflected the acceptance of slavery)

 

 

Of course, no one can really answer that - one can only say what they would have hoped to have done/ said.

 

 

So, is he advocating/ justifying for "today" or explaining/ justifying in light of history?

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Owning slaves was not considered a crime. At one time it was legal.

 

 

Yes, I am aware of that. I was not using the word "crime" to determine the legality of the action. I was using it as the poster I responded to had used it, meaning, in effect, any offense, serious wrongdoing, or sin; a foolish, senseless, or shameful act.

 

Slavery is a crime whether it's legal or not.

 

Tara

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But at one time, culturally, it was accepted.

 

Not by everyone. Many, including slave-owners, knew this practice was wrong

 

Is this man addressing slavery as an institution in the past or still advocating for it today?

 

Wilson thinks slavery is biblical and was therefore morally acceptable in the past and morally acceptable in the present and in the future. Slavery, in his mind, is "God approved."

 

While there are many non-blacks on here in the U.S.A. around the world TODAY who boldly speak out against slavery NOW, how many would have spoken out boldly THEN?

 

Yes, there were many. And the lesson is that good people need to stand with those who are victims of bigotry now and in the future, whether we are in the oppressed group or not. To do less is moral cowardice. It is not an excuse to say "everyone else was doing it so I went along with it."

 

Of course, no one can really answer that - one can only say what they would have hoped to have done/ said.

 

Injustice and bigotry are not dead. The institution of American slavery may be past but there are still denials of basic human and civil right in our nation and around the world that we can attempt to change, or simply accept. But these are moral choices.

 

So, is he advocating/ justifying for "today" or explaining/ justifying in light of history?

 

As I said, Wilson believes slavery is biblical and therefore not contingent on historical or contemporary concepts of morality, but rather a God-approved institution that is good for all time.

 

Bill

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Since the thread is resurrected. Here is what I found when I went reading Omnibus. These were the only quotes I had remaining, but they are enough to make me feel nauseous.

 

From Omnibus "slave narratives" wriiten by Douglas Wilson, "The abolitionists rejected the authority of Scripture when it came to slavery and many faithful Christians we right to resist them at this point. But virtually no one undertook a careful study of what the Bible also taught on the subject of nations, race, the transformation of all culture through the gospel, and the greatness of the Great Commission."

 

Earlier he advises the student, "As you read through the Slave Narratives, exclude the abolitionist argument that the relation of master/slave is necessarily wicked. If that were the case all the narratives you are about to read are examples of such wickedness. But if slavery is a general societal evil that can be mitigated (and finally removed) by Christians learning to live out a different way of being human, living in a different way within the corrupt society, and if this reformational approach includes slaves and their master's both, and Paul has given us a description of what this looks like. Then what follows? Are there stories in these narratives which show slaves following the Apostles' requirements? And, more easily, are there examples of defiance and disobedienceon the part of masters or slaves?"

 

Then follows the Bible verse 1Tim 6:1-2

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Since the thread is resurrected. Here is what I found when I went reading Omnibus. These were the only quotes I had remaining, but they are enough to make me feel nauseous.

 

From Omnibus "slave narratives" wriiten by Douglas Wilson, "The abolitionists rejected the authority of Scripture when it came to slavery and many faithful Christians we right to resist them at this point. But virtually no one undertook a careful study of what the Bible also taught on the subject of nations, race, the transformation of all culture through the gospel, and the greatness of the Great Commission."

 

Earlier he advises the student, "As you read through the Slave Narratives, exclude the abolitionist argument that the relation of master/slave is necessarily wicked. If that were the case all the narratives you are about to read are examples of such wickedness. But if slavery is a general societal evil that can be mitigated (and finally removed) by Christians learning to live out a different way of being human, living in a different way within the corrupt society, and if this reformational approach includes slaves and their master's both, and Paul has given us a description of what this looks like. Then what follows? Are there stories in these narratives which show slaves following the Apostles' requirements? And, more easily, are there examples of defiance and disobedienceon the part of masters or slaves?"

 

Then follows the Bible verse 1Tim 6:1-2

 

Right! In Douglas Wilson's topsy-turvy worldview it is the Abolitionists who are unbiblical/anti-Christian because they opposed an institution that is God-approved.

 

Why in the world Veritas Press Omnibus would choose a man like Wilson (whose views are widely known) to write about slavery (or anything else, really) is beyond me. Unless they agree with his positions.

 

Bill

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From Omnibus "slave narratives" wriiten by Douglas Wilson, "The abolitionists rejected the authority of Scripture when it came to slavery and many faithful Christians we right to resist them at this point. But virtually no one undertook a careful study of what the Bible also taught on the subject of nations, race, the transformation of all culture through the gospel, and the greatness of the Great Commission."

 

Earlier he advises the student, "As you read through the Slave Narratives, exclude the abolitionist argument that the relation of master/slave is necessarily wicked. If that were the case all the narratives you are about to read are examples of such wickedness. But if slavery is a general societal evil that can be mitigated (and finally removed) by Christians learning to live out a different way of being human, living in a different way within the corrupt society, and if this reformational approach includes slaves and their master's both, and Paul has given us a description of what this looks like. Then what follows? Are there stories in these narratives which show slaves following the Apostles' requirements? And, more easily, are there examples of defiance and disobedienceon the part of masters or slaves?"

 

Then follows the Bible verse 1Tim 6:1-2

 

:banghead:

 

I don't know whether to scream or cry. That is so wrong on so many levels.

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Is Wilson speaking of the Biblical definition of slavery which was not for a lifetime and akin to being, I guess, some sort of indentured servant?

 

Biblically, after 7 years a slave was granted his/ her freedom. That's where the whole concept of indentured servitude came from. The concept of slavery being for life or for one specific ethnic group and their descendants for LIFE is not the biblical model.

 

Is the quote complete?

 

I personally have a different question... if biblically one is told that it is good to gain one's freedom and if already free then it is bad to become a slave or return to a state of enslavement...

 

Why does the Apostle Paul encourage Onesimus to return to his slavemaster? Does he not take Onesimus BACK to Philemon, himself? So, Paul went against the biblical model.

 

(Maybe Paul was just trying to reconcile the two men as "brothers in Christ" - I don't know)

 

That's just ONE part of the problem of slavery. "Just be a nice slave master" / "just be a good slave."

 

add in many years, various kinds of slavery, human cruelty, selfishness, pride, ignorance... and greed.

 

(And a dollop or two of plain ole' stupidity!!!)

 

and you've got a huge nasty, ugly mess.

 

I will read more to see EXACTLY where Mr. Wilson stands Today.

 

to think Abolitionists were woefully wrong is CRAZY.

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Is Wilson speaking of the Biblical definition of slavery which was not for a lifetime and akin to being, I guess, some sort of indentured servant?

 

Biblically, after 7 years a slave was granted his/ her freedom. That's where the whole concept of indentured servitude came from. The concept of slavery being for life or for one specific ethnic group and their descendants for LIFE is not the biblical model.

 

Is the quote complete?

 

I personally have a different question... if biblically one is told that it is good to gain one's freedom and if already free then it is bad to become a slave or return to a state of enslavement...

 

Why does the Apostle Paul encourage Onesimus to return to his slavemaster? Does he not take Onesimus BACK to Philemon, himself? So, Paul went against the biblical model.

 

(Maybe Paul was just trying to reconcile the two men as "brothers in Christ" - I don't know)

 

That's just ONE part of the problem of slavery. "Just be a nice slave master" / "just be a good slave."

 

add in many years, various kinds of slavery, human cruelty, selfishness, pride, ignorance... and greed.

 

(And a dollop or two of plain ole' stupidity!!!)

 

and you've got a huge nasty, ugly mess.

 

I will read more to see EXACTLY where Mr. Wilson stands Today.

 

to think Abolitionists were woefully wrong is CRAZY.

Karis, the quote is complete in and of itself. Meaning I did not leave out anything within it. That said there is a lot more (not better) in the actual Omnibus book. Also, the quote is from the most recent edition of Omnibus I could get my hands on. Meaning, I went to a store and got it from a new copy they were selling. So it was current as of 3 or 4 months ago.

 

The last time this thread came around (and it's sister one on the HS board specifically about Omni and Veritas Press) really threw me for a loop. As a result I decided to go and read the newest version of Omni hoping it had been edited. I think what is so upsetting is that he is framing the persepective from which the student is then going to read the Slave Narratives. :tongue_smilie:

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  • 1 month later...

I have only read Repairing the Ruins and did enjoy it. I get more from TWTM though, and just ordered Charlotte Mason Original books on Amazon ( buy 4 get one free) after seeing they were availble on CBD. I also ordere the Omnibus 2 for my two oldest to work on at home. I have had 1 son in Omnibus 1 and did not agree with all of the theology, but they encourage us to talk to our students ( children) about the issues we agree or disagree on.

 

I also have fellow home school friends who are sending their budding graduates on to Moscow Idaho to Patrick Henry and they love it.

 

I hear complaints on all ends, and have even been ridiculed by a few for using SOTW Ancients. The main complaint is the lack of Creation and a Biblical time line.

 

I have several books with evolution in them. I keep them because most of the books are great! Kent Hovind suggested to tell our kids what we believe and that is what I do.

 

I don't think any writer or curriculum is going to be perfect. I believe we just have to keep what we like, and leave the rest.:001_smile:

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