Do you tithe?

[Michelle in MO]

I guess there is a little bit of the what's in it for me, if I think about the broader principle of midah-kneged-midah (measure for measure) - as we act towards others, so are we asking to be treated... on every possible level. So I guess there is a piece of me that feels that since I don't ever want to be turned away when I need to ask someone for help, I shouldn't do that to others... and the closer we are to a financial edge, the stronger my instinct ive drive to open my hands rather than close them... even if what I have to give is trivial.

 

 

and, even if our resources are limited, when we have hearts that are open to giving, I don't believe that what we've given is trivial. :)

[Reesegirl]

My husband and I tithe to our local church, we always have. I would never send money to a tv evangelist but do support several other organizations monthly with a small amount of money. Reese

[dalynnrmc]

we believe it is what we should do. We do not believe it guarantees us blessings (it rains on the just and the unjust, you know). We do believe that being open-handed when we have enough is "sowing" for the possible times when we don't . . . that if we share, God may put people in our paths to share with us when we have needs.

We don't consider whether we have enough money to afford to tithe. We just do it.

 

I completely agree.

[Peek a Boo]

They are the ones using the verses to support their demands for more money.

 

and like a previous issue, this is where the whole context of scripture comes into play :)

 

Yes, the Bible discusses tithing, and yes, i believe that per Christ's discussion it is still applicable *under the law*. And like any number of other things falls under the cover of Christ when we can't or won't keep that portion.

 

As I have mentioned previously, there is absolutely nothing wrong w/ feeling a personal conviction to keep any portion of the law/scripture, as long as we realize that our salvation is not dependent on how well we obey those commands.

 

As someone else mentioned, scripture warns about false teachers. It is [sometimes] difficult to spot those if you are not grounded in the full context of scripture.

And it is easy to lose sight of the gospel when you are zealous for a certain cause or idea --shoot, I've done that here in the recent past myself on an abortion thread. It's not too often I'm wrong but I'm willing to admit when i am ;)

 

and another Yes-- The US is a mission field in itself. I disagree that our tithes need to be given directly to a specific church. many local churches have budgets for supporting causes outside a congregation. But i do believe that if you attend a specific congregagtion, you should be intimately aware and supportive of how your local congregation is faring monetarily.

[Tracey in TX]

We donate, but don't believe in tithing 10%. There are lots of ways to donate besides a certain percentage of income: time, energy, labor, etc.

[OnEaglesWings]

We give our tithe to our church. We give beyond that to missionaries or local ministries (and Focus on the Family). Never to anyone on TV.

[Audrey]

He's sucking money out of the hands of the poor and ... well, stupid... and I don't know how much good is actually being done with it.

 

Not stupid... not always. My dad was a very intelligent person. Quite intellectual actually, yet when he was ill and aging and widowed -- he was susceptible to those who would play upon his emotions. I can understand how he came to believe in it. He was desperate. He was also human, and that apparently made his emotions fair game to con men.

 

Eventually I'm sure that karma is going run right over the dogma of people like Robertson and his ilk.

[mcconnellboys]

People who have way too much debt also often spend way too much of their money on playing the lottery, scratch-offs of various sorts, bingo, etc., etc. Do you think they have a better chance at pay-off from that than tithing?

[Jackie in AR]

I believe God provides for all my needs whether I tithe or not. We give as we are able, sometimes it's more than 10%, sometimes less. I'm not into prosperity or name it and claim it theology.

 

This describes us to a T.

[emzhengjiu]

I answered no because I don't believe tithing is commanded of Christians but regular, generous, open-handed, and sacrifical giving is. If I understand correctly, there were different tithes mandated under the Law resulting in more than 10% but unfortunately I can't find the reference when I need it. Under the new covenant, everything I own is God's and I should give proportionally to my ability to give. But most of all I should give cheerfully. God loves a cheerful giver. We give abundantly because God has first given abundantly to us.

[Jennifer in MI]

We tithe 10%. We also give to other organizations.

 

I had a friend who believed wholeheartedly in the prosperity gospel. She got sick and needed a liver transplant and believed it was because she wasn't giving enough money to the church. So, they gave more and she kept getting sicker. so, they gave more. And, she got better!!! So, it must be because she gave money - right???? Ugh. She also told me that her sister had her miscarraige because she didn't tithe. Wonder what she'd have said if I'd told her about my three miscarraiges? This kind of thinking really makes me sad.

[OnTheBrink]

Not stupid... not always. My dad was a very intelligent person. Quite intellectual actually, yet when he was ill and aging and widowed -- he was susceptible to those who would play upon his emotions. I can understand how he came to believe in it. He was desperate. He was also human, and that apparently made his emotions fair game to con men.

 

Eventually I'm sure that karma is going run right over the dogma of people like Robertson and his ilk.

 

 

I'm really sorry your dad was taken by PR. :grouphug:

[beansprouts]

I guess I have to say to Phred, "So what?" There are all kinds of people with all kinds of agendas. As a Christian, I find it particularly offensive when people do (fill in the blank: stupid, wicked, evil, ignorant, hypocritical, etc...) things and claim to do so in the name of Christ.

 

:iagree: Taking the Lord's name in vain has nothing to do with vocabulary.

[PrairieAir]

I'm back and I haven't read the entire thread, but I've been thinking about it while driving and appointments. Clearly the OP and some others are skeptical about tithing/giving. I'm wondering what exactly it is that bothers you about it.

 

Is it that the folks in the example gave when they had little and were in debt? Does it bother you because you think they were foolish and irresponsible with their money?

 

Is it that you simply don't believe that they were or could be blessed in return for their giving and that you believe instead it is just the way things would have worked out?

 

Does it only bother you because they chose to give to a televangelist? Would it bother you as much if they had given the money to a small, local church? To Association of Retarded Citizens? To the Elks? To the Humane Society? To some hunger relief program? What I'm asking is, does it bother you more that they gave their money to a Christian organization or does it bother you that they gave it to a Christian organization/individual you perceive as being greedy and dishonest? That they gave the credit to God? Or would it bother you if they gave to some secular organization while in the same financial predicament? Would it be okay in your book for them to say it was "karma" or the way the universe works?

 

I'm genuinely curious about what prompted you to ask this question.

 

If you're asking because you believe televangelists, and this one in particular, prey upon people who are already lacking financially, I can almost understand it. On the other hand, I have seen so much of the way bingo parlors and casinos and pawn shops and payday loans prey upon the poor, hopeless, and mentally incompetent that I don't worry much about dishonest televangelists. At least in giving their money to a charity (worthy or not), they are acting selflessly or at least less selfishly. The atmosphere and the act--the entire situation--is so much healthier for the individual than if they spent the same amount on lottery tickets, bingo cards, or a trip to the casino. Even if they never got anything financially or materially in return for giving, I believe it does something on the inside of a person that is worth so much more. Those other things seem to rob a person of that. I'm not guessing about what I think it might be like, either. I've seen some of that firsthand and it is truly depressing.

 

I'd like to think that even if I had not been raised to believe as I do that I would still give regularly of time, money, whatever I have. It's not just a Christian/non-Christian issue to me. It's something that strikes at the very core of us no matter what our religious beliefs are. It's a humanity issue.

[PrairieAir]

Perhaps it is the terminology used in the opening (ie "tithe"), but most of the responses so far have been Xtian.

QUOTE]

 

Yes, the word tithe and the example given are what made me ask the questions above. I know there are many good people who are not Christian who believe in helping others and in giving charitably.

 

I almost didn't know how to answer because we don't "tithe" exactly. From my understanding, that's something very specific from Old Testament law and a requirement under that law. I don't believe I am under that law or obligated in any way to give 10%. It's something I want to do and more and it may not always be to a church or Christian organization. There may be a family I know that needs it or any number of other places to give. I answered yes because I felt that was the best answer for the OP's understanding and intent.

-----------

Oops hit submit too soon. I would also be very interested to hear what those who are not Christians have to say.

[emzhengjiu]

In reading the replies, I forgot the context of the question when I posted. I strongly disagree with the "prosperity" gospel. God meets our needs and because of our gratitude to Him, we act in a similar way toward others by meeting their needs through generous giving as well as meeting the needs of our local church. As His children, if we are blessed here with wealth on this earth it is to help even more not to spend on our own pleasures. Our primary rewards will come when we are with Christ and will be eternal. The greatest of which I believe is the priceless gift of being in the presence of Love itself, the triune living God.

[Audrey]

I'm really sorry your dad was taken by PR. :grouphug:

 

 

Not PR specifically, but "one of his ilk" for sure. Thanks for the hugs. :001_smile:

[Audrey]

Audrey, I know you said you don't tithe, but are there, I'm assuming there are, pagan ...positions isn't the right word here... on sharing of one's resources with others?

 

 

 

 

Yes, there are many pagan creeds that espouse sharing, assisting and caring for others.

 

One part of the creed that I try to live by says:

May I always act out of Love to all other beings on Mother Earth and Her Sisters.

 

Obviously, it's much more difficult to do than to say. :001_smile: This is really the central tenet of my creed, and I interpret it as, in part, a call to give. However, I don't think that giving always has to be money, although, when I have it, I give it to those I feel are worthy.

 

You will find that Wiccans (which I am not, but am familiar with) hold a similar view in the Rede which says:

In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust

Live ye must and let to live,

Fairly take and fairly give.

[Elaine]

Obviously, I don't tithe and even if I did I don't think I'd count giving money to a televangelist as tithing.

 

Caveat: I have a deep disgust for televangelists. After my dad died, we found out he'd been sending money to one who I won't give the air time to name. He'd taken out an equity loan to do it even. A couple of his pals knew he sent money to the guy but not how much. I think they prey on the emotions of some people, especially old and ill people.

 

Flame away if you're so inclined.

 

I agree with you. I wouldn't consider giving money to a televangelist tithing either.

 

 

And, Audrey, I am truly sorry that your family was taken advantage of in the name of Christinity. That makes me very sad.

[Elaine]

 

One part of the creed that I try to live by says:

May I always act out of Love to all other beings on Mother Earth and Her Sisters.

 

 

 

OK, now I feel like a stalker.;)

 

I think that regardless of religion, this is a great way to live.

[Laura Corin]

There's no 'other' button. We give to charity, but I don't consider it tithing.

 

Laura

[sabrina]

I believe that you have to give with a cheerful heart and that what we have belongs to God. There are many ways that we give that back - be it money to the church, money to those in need, and giving time and expertise to those who are in need of it. Just do it with the right intention. Blessings!

[Crissy]

We do not tithe, but we regularly give.

[gail]

We also tithe 10% to our church. We do it out of obedience too. However, we also tithe as act of worship and trust. If you are trusting God to provide for you, it shouldn't be hard to give 10%. Ultimately, tithing is walking the talk when you say you trust Him to provide. If you cannot bring yourself to tithe, you're not trusting Him enough to take care of you.

 

Any donations given to ministries other than your home church are considered "offerings". These are over and above the tithe. People who give to televangelists or other ministers are not tithing. The tithe belongs solely to your home church. It is God's provision for the functioning of the local church.

 

Gail

[Andie]

...

 

And of course I make my montly contribution to Benny Hinn.

 

No I don't!!! I was just kidding about that. I am even going to refrain from making snarky comments about his toupee. Though I want to really, really bad.

 

May God bless you for your restraint, Kelli, dear. ;)

 

That guy freaks. me. out.

[Peek a Boo]

We also tithe 10% to our church. We do it out of obedience too. However, we also tithe as act of worship and trust. If you are trusting God to provide for you, it shouldn't be hard to give 10%. Ultimately, tithing is walking the talk when you say you trust Him to provide. If you cannot bring yourself to tithe, you're not trusting Him enough to take care of you.

 

Any donations given to ministries other than your home church are considered "offerings". These are over and above the tithe. People who give to televangelists or other ministers are not tithing. The tithe belongs solely to your home church. It is God's provision for the functioning of the local church.

 

Gail

 

just curious --are you [and others who mention in "trusting God to provide"] in agreement w/ the quiverful ideas too? I know lots of people would bring it up cuz the logic tends to lead into that [and a few other areas too], I'm just nosier than most :)

 

and while I think the distinction between "home church", "tithe", and "offering" sounds logical for a family to consider, I don't see any scriptural backing for it to apply across the board.

 

mostly, I'm just "picking" on you since you're new and giving you some opportunity to expand your post count :)

[muffinmom]

]I am NOT looking for praise' date=' but we feel it is our family's duty to the Lord to give 10% minimum back. After all, He is the bestower of all of our blessings. In my own experience with paying a full tithe these past 10 years of marriage, I have found that we have be blessed. We are not rich, never will be, but we have always had what we needed.[/quote']

 

We also believe that the 10% is just a starting point, the 10% being a principle from the Old Testament--God wanted the "firstfruits" of their labor. So you give to God off the top--this is an act of faith that says you trust God to provide for your needs. You don't have to feel afraid and keep that portion for yourself.

 

There have been a number of times that we have had to make a choice between paying our tithing or buying food. This may seem a bit extreme to many, but we chose the latter. Every time we were placed in that position, we have had our immediate needs met in one way or another. Maybe we got more back from our tax return, a kind neighbor had vegetables to share, or even an anonymous $100 has shown up on our doorstep.

 

 

My parents have many stories of this kind of thing happening in their lives--all true, and they built up my faith in God to provide. We also have our own stories.

 

My dh and I give more than 10%, but currently we don't give it to our local church, since we are the local church (we're developing a house church)! But we do set it aside to be used for people in need, etc. We occasionally give to charitable organizations, but we prefer to look for opportunities to give to people we come across in our daily lives.

 

It is truly a joy to have, as I think Eliana put it, an open hand, even when you yourself are in need. Those times require more faith, but your faith is doubly built up when God provides for you.

[Virginia Heather]

We give our tithe to our church. We give beyond that to missionaries or local ministries (and Focus on the Family). Never to anyone on TV.

Exactly!

[Kate in Arabia]

Kate, Nadia, Asma... how does Islam approach it? (And, b/c I am incurably curious, what is your word for it? Mine is tzedaka - from the root tzade-dalet-kuf, meaning justice... it is charity for Xtians from the Latin caritas (love)...)

 

I think the Islamic equivalent for that particular term is sadaqa, which is charity or alms. The root actually has two meanings, truth and friendship, so you find derivatives that fit into this scope of meaning (sidq truth, sadiiq friend, tasdiq attestation or confirmation, musaddaq credible, etc.).

 

This is money or help that you give generally, and is separate from zakah, which is one of the five pillars, and which I would consider a tithe. The root of zakah again has two meanings, to increase and to purify. Which ties into the idea of zakah as purifying your wealth, and the familiar giving of your wealth and God thereby increasing yours (in whatever form that may take). It's a percentage of your held wealth, meaning wealth you have had in your possession for a period of a lunar year; wealth can be money, or gold, or unused land, etc. You have to hit a threshhold amount before you are required to pay zakah, and then there are specific guidelines for you to calculate how much. Zakah is generally paid to charitable organizations or even directly to people who need it, it can be paid in money or in food/supplies.

 

We pay zakah once a year; sadaqa we give frequently throughout the year, as we see someone or an organization who needs or requests it (as you mentioned before).

[Virginia Heather]

Exactly!

Ooh! I just figured out how to quote someone and was so excited by my new discovery that I didn't finish my response! Anyway, what I meant to say was this... I agree w/ what OnEaglesWings said... we give our monthly tithe to our home church, and then we give a smaller amount to support other ministries (Samaritan's Purse and the Crisis Pregnancy Center, for example).

[PariSarah]

I asked my left hand and my right hand, and neither of them knew what was going on.

 

:D

[Call Me Cordelia]

I asked my left hand and my right hand, and neither of them knew what was going on.

 

:D

 

 

:thumbup:

[jail warden]

:iagree: with what Elaine has said. We also give 10% from our hearts. We only started 2 1/2 years ago. Before that, we would give what we thought we could and it was never very much. I don't believe it will 'make' God give you prosperity, in fact our income went down quite a bit 4 months into tithing, but I really felt God was calling me to tithe. My dh always wanted to, I 'wanted' to in spirit, but in action I never did, and since I was the one paying the bills, it wasn't really done. However, even though on paper it never looked like we'd be able to even squeak by with our little income that year, God helped us, through many miracles and we never went hungry or were late on any bills. It was a miracle. But did I tithe because I was demanding that from God? NO WAY! It doesn't work like that because see it's an attitude thing and HOW you give is more important than WHAT you give.

 

While I believe we are commanded to give, I also know God has lots of mercy and as Dave Ramsey says, "He's your Heavenly Father and He's nuts about you already!" Meaning God will love you whether you tithe or not as long as your attitude is good.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I asked my left hand and my right hand, and neither of them knew what was going on.

 

:D

 

:D:D:D

 

Hi, Sarah! :waviing:

 

Pass the salt, will ya? Looks like you don't need it anymore today.

[Twinmom]

I asked my left hand and my right hand, and neither of them knew what was going on.

 

:D

 

:lol: Too funny! Extremely appropriate, Sarah! :D

[Jackie in AR]

I asked my left hand and my right hand, and neither of them knew what was going on.

 

:D

 

You are so witty!

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Peek a Boo]

I asked my left hand and my right hand, and neither of them knew what was going on.

 

:D

 

me-thinks it's time for some tougher, more controversial interrogation techniques.... fingernails, anyone?

 

;)

[Zoraida]

Yes, we tithe 10%. When we received allowances as kids we were required to give a dollar or two to our church. I make our children do the same. I don't know if there is written requirements for different Protestant church members to tithe, but I do know in the Catholic church there is an obligation to tithe. In my Baltimore Catechism No.4 - No. 402 question asks: Are we obliged to contribute to the support of our pastors? Answer: We are obliged to contribute to the support of our pastors and to bear our share in the expenses of the Church and school. Than the Catechism goes on for a page and a half giving examples of why.

Blessings

 

Zoraida

[Peek a Boo]

As I understand it, the 10% thing is referenced by Jesus in Matthew 23:23:

 

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former." (italics added)

 

I can disregard as "the law" all of the OT commands on tithing, but I have a hard time dismissing Jesus' words on it. I'm open minded though; any thoughts from the Bible scholars among us?

 

I'm not a Bible scholar, but at the time Jesus spoke those words to the Pharisees He was still speaking as one Under the Law. Not only would His tithing comments be centered around a basic 10%, but also all the other tithes as well.

[ClassicMom]

whether we send $20 to Pat Robertson or not. Not to offend those who support the 700 club.

 

We have three children with disabilities, two with severe disabilities and I have many medical issues. We have had money problems on and off since we got married. However, God has always provided the right amount of money at the right time. He may wait until the very last minute, but He provides. :)

 

IMOHO, the 700 Club preys on the fears of the suffering, the elderly and the poor who are desparate. Instead of encouraging them to plug-in to a community church for encouragement and help, they encourage them to send "seed" money with promises of God's bountiful provisions...provisions that He provides to His people anyways. Quite honestly it breaks my heart. :tongue_smilie: Just my $.02

[Phred]

When I started this thread I used the words that PR was using in his begging seven hundred club telecast. That's where "tithe" came from. The concept being that if you give him some money it's like giving money to God and God will repay you many times over. The story that sticks with me is the guy who cleaned aquariums then was able to start his own fish tank cleaning business. Somehow that forty bucks he sends every month to PR turned into a store and an in-home business.

 

#1... that's special for this guy but how many people send in money and it just goes down the drain? PR clearly shows people sending in their last $40 bucks. Someone asked if the lottery was better odds than this... heck yeah. Give away $40 bucks and it's gone. At least you stand some chance of winning the lottery. There simply is no God managing a system that gives back. People give back. When you donate or make a charitable contribution you're investing in people. A good thing to do but not with your last $40 bucks.

 

#2... it can't work that way. For some to get some have to lose. That's how the world works. I see all this posts about how God provides for you... God doesn't do that... God doesn't magically change your tax return amount. You paid that money in all year long and you're just getting it back. It's YOUR money. That's why it's called a RETURN and not a gift.

 

#3... if a casino advertised to come and give us your last $40 you stand to get back $39 nobody would stand for it. But PR can put on a show that says, "give us your last $40 you'll get back thousands" and nobody complains.

 

I just can't get over how things cloaked in religion get a pass when the same things, if you remove the guise of religion, would be stamped out in a moment. This is one of them. An all-knowing, all-seeing being who just always happens to need money. Invest in people. If you do it through your local church or elks club, whatever... but people who send it to Benny Hinn or PR should seriously have their heads examined.

[CLHCO]

I just can't get over how things cloaked in religion get a pass when the same things, if you remove the guise of religion, would be stamped out in a moment.

 

Honestly, televangelists depress me something awful but probably for a different reason than they do you, since I'm Christian.

 

Running a TV show is expensive and they need a great deal of donations coming in regularly to keep it going. I'm not saying every program on the station is always bad, but many of those main promoters are using every strategy in the book to separate you from your money and prey on people who have a hard time. There is an implication that if you don't give, things will stay rotten. I don't remember anything in the teachings of Jesus to go with that and last I checked, he didn't have sponsors, bank accounts, or public relations groups working for him. Those things did exist in the Roman Empire at that time too. Money swindlers were everywhere.

 

Even though I can see that sometimes they reach a lonely person with hope and the words of Christ, it is impersonal with no relationship or interactions.

 

That said, I understand that any organization cannot function without the resources to do so. We benefit greatly from our church and it would be completely against my conscious to not give, though we're not at 10% at this time. It's my goal. However, our church almost never has a "time to tithe" sermon, though they are open when there are needs that they would like people to consider. They have opened a homeless shelter on cold nights in our own church, feeding and caring for people by volunteers, support a hospital in Africa, an orphanage in Mexico, many missionaries, etc. Because people can stand behind what they support, they don't have to beg and swindle the money. We get a full disclosure report quarterly, whether we ask for it or not. I know every penny the choir spends on music or the Sunday schools on supplies. People donate their time for the grounds keeping or when repairs are needed. That is how tithing should be done, for no return but for the sake of love.

 

Tithing gets a bad name from places like you mentioned but it's really not. It can be a wonderful thing.

[Elaine]

 

#2... it can't work that way. For some to get some have to lose. That's how the world works. I see all this posts about how God provides for you... God doesn't do that... God doesn't magically change your tax return amount. You paid that money in all year long and you're just getting it back. It's YOUR money. That's why it's called a RETURN and not a gift.

 

 

 

I really do not mean to be disrespectful, Phred, I really don't. The thing is this, if you are a Christian you think differently concerning financial matters. If you are not a Christian, it seems rather illogical.:001_smile:

 

This is personal, but I will share it anyway. My husband is currently on staff at our church. A small church that can't afford to pay us a lot. We don't do it for the money, but rather, the blessing of serving. Well, about a month ago we had some big ticket items that we had to spend money to fix. The garage door fell off of the hinges. :001_huh:Um, OK. Another was my husband's truck, the brakes went. This put us into a bind. Use our savings? Wait for our rebate? What?

 

We decided to pray and see what would happen. I went to Maryland to a women's conference and knew that God would provide. Don't ask me how, I just knew.

 

When I returned home my husband told me the following:

 

Last fall he went to a men's conference and did a devotional during the morning session. Another man, not from our church, was there and really identified with many of the things that my husband shared. They kept in contact, occassionally, via e-mail. The monday that I left, my husband went into the office and there was a letter thumb tacked to the bulletin board. It was a letter from the man that he met at the conference. Inside the letter was a note that said, "We feel this is the amount that God wants us to give you guys. We don't know why, but we just want to be obedient." They didn't know one single thing about our finances or our situation.

 

Inside that letter was a check for $500.

 

I guess you are correct, in a way, when you say that for some to get, some have to lose. The couple that gave us money lost money, but they don't see it that way. They saw that they were being obedient to what God called them to.

 

I can't answer your questions as to why people send money to Pat Robertson and Benny Hinn any more than I can answer the question of why God chose to meet our needs through a couple that I don't even know. But I won't tell people to have their heads examined. It is presumptious to assume to know the motives of other people's hearts. God sees the heart, only He knows.

 

 

This is too long already but I will just say this, there are plenty of references in the Bible as to what will happen to those who deceive God's people. Justice will be served.;)

[LisaNY]

As I understand it, the 10% thing is referenced by Jesus in Matthew 23:23:

 

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former." (italics added)

 

I can disregard as "the law" all of the OT commands on tithing, but I have a hard time dismissing Jesus' words on it. I'm open minded though; any thoughts from the Bible scholars among us?

 

I do, too. These verses from Malachi bring your misgivings about dismissing Yeshua's (Jesus") words into sharp focus:

 

Malachi 3

 

(These are prophetic verses, speaking of the time when Messiah will come. These cannot be therefore regarded as "old covenant", even though they are part of the OT Scriptures)

 

1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the L-rd you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the L-RD Almighty.

2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the L-RD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offeringsof Judah and Jerusalemwill be acceptable to the L-RD, as in days gone by, as in former years.

5 "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty.

Robbing God

 

6 "I the L-RD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. 7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the L-RD Almighty.

"But you ask, 'How are we to return?' 8 "Will a man rob G-d? Yet you rob me.

"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'

"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the L-RD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the L-RD Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the L-RD Almighty.

13 "You have said harsh things against me," says the L-RD.

"Yet you ask, 'What have we said against you?'

14 "You have said, 'It is futile to serve G-d. What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the L-RD Almighty? 15 But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge G-d escape.' "

16 Then those who feared the L-RD talked with each other, and the L-RD listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the L-RD and honored his name.

17 "They will be mine," says the L-RD Almighty, "in the day when I make up my treasured possession. [h] I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve G-d and those who do not.

Malachi 4

 

The Day of the L-RD

 

1 "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the L-RD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 23 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says the L-RD Almighty. But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the L-RD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."

 

 

*WHY* would G-d speak so strongly on this issue, and then turn around and essentially nullify it? This makes no sense at all, and I daresay it would be quite baffling to the Jews.

[Peek a Boo]

*WHY* would G-d speak so strongly on this issue, and then turn around and essentially nullify it? This makes no sense at all, and I daresay it would be quite baffling to the Jews.

 

It's not "nullified" --it's *fulfilled* in Christ

 

I'm sure that since many Christians themselves have difficulties reconciling the OT and NT, someone who doesn't share that faith would have an even tougher time w/ the concept.

[Peek a Boo]

When I started this thread I used the words that PR was using in his begging seven hundred club telecast. That's where "tithe" came from. The concept being that if you give him some money it's like giving money to God and God will repay you many times over.

---

#1... that's special for this guy but how many people send in money and it just goes down the drain? ... When you donate or make a charitable contribution you're investing in people. A good thing to do but not with your last $40 bucks.

 

#2... it can't work that way. For some to get some have to lose. That's how the world works. I see all this posts about how God provides for you... God doesn't do that... God doesn't magically change your tax return amount. You paid that money in all year long and you're just getting it back. It's YOUR money. That's why it's called a RETURN and not a gift.

 

#3... if a casino advertised to come and give us your last $40 you stand to get back $39 nobody would stand for it. But PR can put on a show that says, "give us your last $40 you'll get back thousands" and nobody complains.

 

 

I just can't get over how things cloaked in religion get a pass when the same things, if you remove the guise of religion, would be stamped out in a moment.

 

 

just to clarify...... are you saying that you did not fully understand the concept of "tithing" and thought that tithing was sending to this one organization? If so, i can understand your amazement when you hear about Christians tithing, lol.

 

#1: There are plenty of secular organizations where people send in money and it is essentially washed down the drain. Religion isn't the only industry that is full of scammers.

 

#2: i guess that depends on your definition of "lose" --We "lose" when we go shopping --but we get something back that makes it worth "losing" our money. The whole round and round the money goes kinda thing.... the fact that money changes hands doesn't necessarily mean that someone is "losing".

 

#3: per #1, there are plenty of businesses that HAVE been stomped flat outta business. And there are plenty of secular organizations that i wonder HOW and WHY people would voluntarily spend money on just to support but they haven't been "stomped" outta business. It's a free country --people have the right to be idiots. And people DO complain :)

 

But as for TITHING --well, that's a pretty basic concept and isn't tied to any one organization or even religion. Tithing's been around a long, long time.

[Peek a Boo]

Uhm, yes. Yes it is often very baffling to this Jew. :)

 

AIUI, the Xtian position is that the Laws were fulfilled by their messiah rather than nullified - but then there are some which, at least some Xtians, still consider binding (a source of constant bewilderment to me!) - the Jewish position is that the Law is eternal and unchanging and cannot be fulfilled for once and for all - this core difference is why most Jews of the tiem stayed Jews...

 

Yes, some Christians still feel a calling --a personal conviction-- to adhere to some parts of scripture more strongly than others; esp those concerning material things or specific schedules/ actions/ beliefs. That's fine, as long as you are not considering it a point on which your salvation hinges.

 

And i absolutely agree that finding someone who could fulfill the Law once and for all is a Mighty Big Task ;)

[LisaNY]

It's not "nullified" --it's *fulfilled* in Christ

 

I'm sure that since many Christians themselves have difficulties reconciling the OT and NT, someone who doesn't share that faith would have an even tougher time w/ the concept.

 

This could lead to a very long discussion. I used "nullified", because in essence, that is how many Christians interpret "fulfilled". My reasons for choosing that particular Scripture was to show that G-d is speaking of the time when Messiah will come. Taking that Scripture in context, it is clear that G-d sees tithing as a principle that endures, right on through the time of Messiah and beyond. The L-rd states very clearly that He "does not change".

[dangermom]

 

#2... it can't work that way. For some to get some have to lose. That's how the world works.

I don't think that's true, even in regular economics and not in religion. Wealth can grow, in a bunch of different ways.

 

From a Christian perspective, God can and does provide. (Though not always how we are expecting!) There are a lot of different POVs here on tithing, though, so it's going to be hard to define very much.

 

Believing in tithing as a principle doesn't mean that most Christians, or everyone here, thinks that giving money to Pat Robertson is giving money to God. From the responses on this thread, I'm guessing that most of us would not say that. Just because a televangelist says something, doesn't mean that very many Christians believe it as a point of doctrine.

 

I wouldn't say that God needs money. But it may well be that I need to learn to give--IME that's what most of the commandments are for, to teach me something important, not for God's benefit. And let's face it, churches need money to operate--they have buildings, electricity bills, books, schools, and oh yeah--a lot of charity work. I use those things.

 

I don't personally count "giant TV programs" as something to give money to and call it tithing, but they'll have to account for themselves someday.

[Peek a Boo]

This could lead to a very long discussion. I used "nullified", because in essence, that is how many Christians interpret "fulfilled". My reasons for choosing that particular Scripture was to show that G-d is speaking of the time when Messiah will come. Taking that Scripture in context, it is clear that G-d sees tithing as a principle that endures, right on through the time of Messiah and beyond. The L-rd states very clearly that He "does not change".

 

you are correct -- this would be a very long discussion, so i would just refer everyone to google :)

 

And yes, tithing --as well as keeping alllll the laws-- is still in effect. But the punishments for breaking [esp IN SPIRIT] those laws is taken by Christ. Fulfilling the action of the law w/o keeping its spirit is just as bad as not keeping it materially. One grumble or second thought and you're toast.

 

There's a lot about the purpose of the law and "saved by grace, not law" in the NT that doesn't really apply to this thread, and i would encourage you to direct any more specific questions to a new thread.

 

God does not change: He accepted The Ultimate Sacrifice in Christ.

God does not lie --He accepted Christ's sacrifice for eternity.

God does not change: if He accepted a sacrifice so Holy and Perfect and for all who Believe, then he can't hold us accountable for it.

 

Another issue is about when the Messiah will come. Some say He has come, some say He hasn't, and others say He will come again. More at "interpreting Malachi 3" via google :)