I will admit that I have never submitted to my husband...

[Nakia]

because it's truly never come up. When we need to make a decision, sometimes we talk it out, sometimes we argue it out, and sometimes we just automatically know that the other is more informed and would make the best decision, so we go with it. Other times, one of us will feel very strongly about something, so that person decides (ex. Patrick really wants our girls to do Christian based science, and while I would prefer a neutral/secular science curriculum, he feels strongly, so I go with it. No biggie). We have never had a power struggle, and I have never been put in a position where I was forced, coerced, or inclined to submit to him and vice versa. He encourages me to make a lot of the decisions because I am home every day, and I am more informed about what would best for the kids and our home. And frankly, extreme submission is so foreign to us that I can't imagine what that would look like in our marriage. We make mistakes, we don't blame the other, and we learn from each other. It's all about respect. Now, of course, our marriage is far far from perfect, but this does work for us.

 

I'm not trying to insult those whose marriages operate differently. I'm simply saying that it CAN be done, and it CAN work, even in Christian families.

[Mommyfaithe]

We call it the "give a cr@p factor". I am not submissive...neither is he. We are equal team mates. If one cares more than the other about an issue...that is how we go. If we care equally....we discuss and decide.

 

Faithe

[ThatCyndiGirl]

You are a brave woman.

 

Of course, having said that, I will admit that I think you are completely wrong because you fail to see the beauty in the marriage of bacon and Nutella. :glare:

[Nakia]

We call it the "give a cr@p factor". I am not submissive...neither is he. We are equal team mates. If one cares more than the other about an issue...that is how we go. If we care equally....we discuss and decide.

 

Faithe

 

I like that "give a crap factor"! That's awesome. I will have to tell Patrick that one.

 

You are a brave woman.

 

Of course, having said that, I will admit that I think you are completely wrong because you fail to see the beauty in the marriage of bacon and Nutella. :glare:

 

Brave? How come?

 

And if you don't stop talking about bacon and Nutella, I am going to run over your pet armadillo.

[AvasMom]

You sound a lot like us. Also, my husband is fairly laid back and doesn't give a hoot about having the "final word" on much. I, on the other hand, am very Type A about almost everything. The difference in personality means that a patriarchal, Vision Forum-ish lifestyle would drive both of us nuts. lol!

[LizzyBee]

because it's truly never come up. When we need to make a decision, sometimes we talk it out, sometimes we argue it out, and sometimes we just automatically know that the other is more informed and would make the best decision, so we go with it. Other times, one of us will feel very strongly about something, so that person decides (ex. Patrick really wants our girls to do Christian based science, and while I would prefer a neutral/secular science curriculum, he feels strongly, so I go with it. No biggie). We have never had a power struggle, and I have never been put in a position where I was forced, coerced, or inclined to submit to him and vice versa. He encourages me to make a lot of the decisions because I am home every day, and I am more informed about what would best for the kids and our home. And frankly, extreme submission is so foreign to us that I can't imagine what that would look like in our marriage. We make mistakes, we don't blame the other, and we learn from each other. It's all about respect. Now, of course, our marriage is far far from perfect, but this does work for us.

 

I'm not trying to insult those whose marriages operate differently. I'm simply saying that it CAN be done, and it CAN work, even in Christian families.

 

What you describe is how Biblical submission should work, imo. It's all about considering the best interest each other rather than making selfish decisions. Considering that husbands are told in Ephesians to love their wives as Christ loved the church, I don't think there's anything biblical about a man bossing his wife around and expecting her to be at his beck and call. Fortunately, I don't see that kind of marriage often.

[Caitilin]

Neither have I. We just make it work, somehow, together. The "give a crap" factor makes a big difference, IME.

[jenL]

We are a Christian family, and you just described our marriage. We know many other Christian families who have similar marriages where needing for the wife to submit is not an issue because of the balance they have achieved.

[LibraryLover]

Interesting!

Edited July 9, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Pink Fairy]

I'm not submissive either. I wish that I was, not as a husband-wife issue, but more that I wish I was more humble, that it was easier for me to give in, that I didn't insist so much on my own way. But there it is--I'm a sinner, in every way. And of the two of us, my dh is definitely the holier, the kinder, the more loving. I am blessed!

[tex-mex]

I think each marriage is different.

 

My MIL just passed away recently from cancer. My in-laws were married for 50+ years. But she ruled the roost. She was the MATRIARCH. She made all of the $$$ financial decisions, they lived off his earnings, she was type-A and opinionated, and everyone had to do things her way. It sounds horrible... but in reality, she was a wonderful and kind lady. Simply, she was used to being in charge. And my FIL, liked it this way. He did not like making decisions.

 

Her mother was the same way. Unfortunately, she divorced soon into the marriage and raised her kids on her own. It sounded like G'ma was too much for the milquetoast man she married. Her grandson, my husband, says he was demasculated in the relationship. Who knows?

 

ETA: My marriage is more Patriarchial. Hubs is the head of our household. But he is a kind man -- doesn't abuse or does things to hurt us. And I am content being behind him taking care of my family. I do know from being raised by a strong woman and having a strong grandmother... my hubs does not want a strong opinionated woman for a mate. He chose an independent quiet gal who likes to be behind the scenes making my family happy.

Edited July 9, 2011 by tex-mex

[albeto]

What you describe is how Biblical submission should work, imo. It's all about considering the best interest each other rather than making selfish decisions. Considering that husbands are told in Ephesians to love their wives as Christ loved the church, I don't think there's anything biblical about a man bossing his wife around and expecting her to be at his beck and call. Fortunately, I don't see that kind of marriage often.

 

I wouldn't think submission implies servitude, but if this is an example of biblical submission, it's an oxymoron. There's no submission in this example that I can see. What am I missing?

[GardenTenders/Kim]

What you describe is how Biblical submission should work, imo. It's all about considering the best interest each other rather than making selfish decisions. Considering that husbands are told in Ephesians to love their wives as Christ loved the church, I don't think there's anything biblical about a man bossing his wife around and expecting her to be at his beck and call. Fortunately, I don't see that kind of marriage often.

:iagree:

This is what I think. If my husband wanted me to be at his beck and call he would have a long time to wait. :tongue_smilie:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I like that "give a crap factor"! That's awesome. I will have to tell Patrick that one.

 

 

 

Brave? How come?

 

And if you don't stop talking about bacon and Nutella, I am going to run over your pet armadillo.

 

 

Brave because a whole posse of denim-jumper-wearin-bun-havin-WTM-lurkers could take you out with a well-timed crockpot and shopping cart Smackdown, that's why!!

 

And, as for your Bacon and Nutella Hate, well, just fire up the jalopy, girlfriend, cuz I'm on a roll! My armadilluh can run, baby, run!!

 

(And, in other news I'm so dang tired of hearing my youngest child talk on andonandonandonandon today that I'm about to put myself into time-out!)

[GardenTenders/Kim]

I'm not submissive either. I wish that I was, not as a husband-wife issue, but more that I wish I was more humble, that it was easier for me to give in, that I didn't insist so much on my own way. But there it is--I'm a sinner, in every way. And of the two of us, my dh is definitely the holier, the kinder, the more loving. I am blessed!

 

I wish I was more humble also. My husband is and I wish I could be more that way and less quick to pass judgement... :001_huh:

[Marylou]

Nakia, would it really be "submission" if you were "forced" or "coerced"? I don't think so.

[6packofun]

Yep. I love hearing about all the submitting being done in non-submissive folks. :D

[GardenTenders/Kim]

I'm about to put myself into time-out!)

 

I BEG for time outs. They all just laugh at me..... 1 minute a year, yeah I can deal with it! bring it on baby! I might just try throwing a fit, since I'm home alone, maybe the neighbors will grant me a time out. LOL I will gladly go to my room, where a test I should be taking isn't lurking, where toys on the floor aren't staring at me..... :lol:

 

What floors me though in all seriousness, women that say they are completely submissive to their spouse but aren't. They might appear to be on the outside, but at home everyone is afraid of ruffling their feathers. I know a woman like this. She does wear dresses all the time, sometimes denim (:lol:) and I swear, I am scared of her, her husband is scared of her, the preachers are scared of her......

 

Gonna run now Incas she lurks here.......... :auto:

[Nakia]

Brave because a whole posse of denim-jumper-wearin-bun-havin-WTM-lurkers could take you out with a well-timed crockpot and shopping cart Smackdown, that's why!!

 

And, as for your Bacon and Nutella Hate, well, just fire up the jalopy, girlfriend, cuz I'm on a roll! My armadilluh can run, baby, run!!

 

(And, in other news I'm so dang tired of hearing my youngest child talk on andonandonandonandon today that I'm about to put myself into time-out!)

 

I have a gun! I ain't skeered! And if it's gets ugly, someone can just post a kilt picture.

 

Nakia, would it really be "submission" if you were "forced" or "coerced"? I don't think so.

 

I think force and coercion take on many forms.

[YLVD]

because it's truly never come up. When we need to make a decision, sometimes we talk it out, sometimes we argue it out, and sometimes we just automatically know that the other is more informed and would make the best decision, so we go with it. Other times, one of us will feel very strongly about something, so that person decides (ex. Patrick really wants our girls to do Christian based science, and while I would prefer a neutral/secular science curriculum, he feels strongly, so I go with it. No biggie). We have never had a power struggle, and I have never been put in a position where I was forced, coerced, or inclined to submit to him and vice versa. He encourages me to make a lot of the decisions because I am home every day, and I am more informed about what would best for the kids and our home. And frankly, extreme submission is so foreign to us that I can't imagine what that would look like in our marriage. We make mistakes, we don't blame the other, and we learn from each other. It's all about respect. Now, of course, our marriage is far far from perfect, but this does work for us.

 

I'm not trying to insult those whose marriages operate differently. I'm simply saying that it CAN be done, and it CAN work, even in Christian families.

 

We aren't Christians but the idea of submission is against everything I believe as a person.

 

And yet, we have the easiest time of deciding things. We always have. He has his areas of specialty and I have mine. He tends to be far more indecisive than I am so I end up making most decisions.

 

No one has the ultimate decision making power. The person that the issue matters to more, or that has the most experience with it, makes that decision. Easy peasy and we never have conflict or power struggles.

 

My SO would not have a relationship that was not totally egalitarian.

[mom4him]

because it's truly never come up. When we need to make a decision, sometimes we talk it out, sometimes we argue it out, and sometimes we just automatically know that the other is more informed and would make the best decision, so we go with it. Other times, one of us will feel very strongly about something, so that person decides (ex. Patrick really wants our girls to do Christian based science, and while I would prefer a neutral/secular science curriculum, he feels strongly, so I go with it. No biggie). We have never had a power struggle, and I have never been put in a position where I was forced, coerced, or inclined to submit to him and vice versa. He encourages me to make a lot of the decisions because I am home every day, and I am more informed about what would best for the kids and our home. And frankly, extreme submission is so foreign to us that I can't imagine what that would look like in our marriage. We make mistakes, we don't blame the other, and we learn from each other. It's all about respect. Now, of course, our marriage is far far from perfect, but this does work for us.

 

I'm not trying to insult those whose marriages operate differently. I'm simply saying that it CAN be done, and it CAN work, even in Christian families.

I believe that submitting to your husband is grossly miss taught in many churches. To me what you described is what Eph. is talking about. It tells the husband to love his wife and for the wife to submit. It doesn't say you can talk about it, disagree at times, work it out. If that were the case I wouldn't be submitting either. Now when there is a decission to be made I try to let my dh have the final word but if I believe it is definitely wrong I tell him so and most of the time it changes.

[FaithManor]

Though both of us are Christians and raised in fairly traditional, conservative homes, I can honestly say that the submission issue doesn't come up. We are a team and it's a 50-50 around here when it comes to authority.

 

When we were married, talk about your wedding fiascos, my parents insisted that I get married in their home church. This was a church I DID NOT want to have anything to do with who employed one of the most domineering pastors I've ever had the misfortune of meeting- he was later asked to leave. We absolutely loathed the idea, but dh decided he'd rather make them happy as all that mattered was that we were married at the end of the day. So, we went with it.

 

Wellllllllll, this pastor brought up the issue of vows and said I'd have to promise to obey. Dh looked at him and said, "Really? Seriously?? She is not my dog nor my minor child. I have no intention of bossing her around." The pastor grumbled something about it HAD to be that way so dh told him, "That is the straw that broke the camel's back. Thanks kindly for the counseling, but we'll be holding our ceremony somewhere else and with some other pastor." My parents got wind of it and my dad (who was a deacon) went to the other deacons who told him that this was not some sort of church requirement and that I didn't have to promise to obey. Apparently, they brought it up with the pastor and he called saying he would remove it from the vows.

 

So, there we are standing at the alter in our finery, just a few short minutes from being married, and he turns to dh and does the vows. Okay, well and good, turns to me and does the "Will you promise......" and takes on "OBEY" at the end. There was stunned silence. I mean, I was in a tight spot there. Dh gave this man the most evil look he could muster, the best man (dh's brother) coughed, my maid of honor - knowing how I felt - leaned over and said, "Don't do it!" and all I want is for this ceremony to be over. I didn't know what to do and didn't want to make a big scene in front of 350 people. I very quietly said the whole love, honor, cherish part, and whispered, "no obey". Dh snickered and the pastor stood there absolutely shocked. With the ball back in his court ie....does he announce to the whole congregation including the very deacons who had told him I didn't have to promise to obey that I said no, or smile and move on? He did not smile, but he did move on and he did sign our marriage license. He signed AFTER dh gave him quite the verbal beating after the ceremony.

 

 

There, that's my story on submission. I've just never had anything in our marriage come to that kind of a crisis.

 

Faith

[Nakia]

I believe that submitting to your husband is grossly miss taught in many churches. To me what you described is what Eph. is talking about. It tells the husband to love his wife and for the wife to submit. It doesn't say you can talk about it, disagree at times, work it out. If that were the case I wouldn't be submitting either. Now when there is a decission to be made I try to let my dh have the final word but if I believe it is definitely wrong I tell him so and most of the time it changes.

 

I do very much agree that Christ never intended for women to be forced to submit to their husband the way many are taught today. FTR, my pastor has never mentioned submission in the 2 years we've been going there. If he did, and he condoned and promoted the dynamic I see in many marriages, we wouldn't be members there. ;)

[justamouse]

We call it the "give a cr@p factor". I am not submissive...neither is he. We are equal team mates. If one cares more than the other about an issue...that is how we go. If we care equally....we discuss and decide.

 

Faithe

 

A FREAKIN men.

 

And, that second 'submit' is NOT in the bible.

 

Just' say'n.

 

It's not. The 'writer' put it in there because they assumed it's what the original writer was talking about-but the actual word is NOT there.

[WishboneDawn]

I'd say we're both submissive and both assertive at times. *shrug* It works.

[LittleIzumi]

Same here! And dh generally comes around & admits I was quite right, even when he thought my idea sounded crazy at first.

[Embassy]

because it's truly never come up. When we need to make a decision, sometimes we talk it out, sometimes we argue it out, and sometimes we just automatically know that the other is more informed and would make the best decision, so we go with it. Other times, one of us will feel very strongly about something, so that person decides (ex. Patrick really wants our girls to do Christian based science, and while I would prefer a neutral/secular science curriculum, he feels strongly, so I go with it. No biggie). We have never had a power struggle, and I have never been put in a position where I was forced, coerced, or inclined to submit to him and vice versa. He encourages me to make a lot of the decisions because I am home every day, and I am more informed about what would best for the kids and our home. And frankly, extreme submission is so foreign to us that I can't imagine what that would look like in our marriage. We make mistakes, we don't blame the other, and we learn from each other. It's all about respect. Now, of course, our marriage is far far from perfect, but this does work for us.

 

I'm not trying to insult those whose marriages operate differently. I'm simply saying that it CAN be done, and it CAN work, even in Christian families.

 

What you describe sounds like a Biblical example of submission. Submission isn't a wife doing whatever her husband wants without having a voice. It is basically unselfishness. The husband is to love the wife and in so doing will put her needs first. The wife is to submit to the husband because she considers his needs over hers. And when both work together (husband loving and wife submitting) it is beautiful. It isn't about one person getting his/her own way, but about sacrificing needs/wants for the sake of your partner.

 

Honestly, I never truly understood submission until after I was married. It sure isn't hard to put my husband's wants and needs first when he puts my wants and needs before his own;)

[Kimber]

It seems to me that the focus is always on the submission of women. But in the church, as I understand it, husbands are called to be servant leaders to the point of death. So the calling for submission is not about the husband's actions, but about the wife's willingness to put her own interest aside. The same goes for being a servant leader. It's about the husband putting aside his interest and sacrificing to the point of death for his wife. Submission on one side; sacrifice on the other. It's a win, win situation that basically calls both parties to not be selfish. Submission for the wife has nothing to do with how the husband acts. Sacrifice for the husband has nothing to do with how the wife acts. It's about both sides dying to self for the benefit of the other.

[WishboneDawn]

What you describe sounds like a Biblical example of submission. Submission isn't a wife doing whatever her husband wants without having a voice. It is basically unselfishness. The husband is to love the wife and in so doing will put her needs first. The wife is to submit to the husband because she considers his needs over hers. And when both work together (husband loving and wife submitting) it is beautiful. It isn't about one person getting his/her own way, but about sacrificing needs/wants for the sake of your partner.

 

Honestly, I never truly understood submission until after I was married. It sure isn't hard to put my husband's wants and needs first when he puts my wants and needs before his own;)

 

I have such trouble with that word. :) I'm quite sure a wife with an idea of submission much more in line with a patriarchal model where the husband calls the shots and the wife simply agrees would call her interpretation Biblical as well.

[Kimber]

Wehomeschool,

 

I wouldn't have posted if I had read your comment first. That's exactly what I was trying to say.

 

Kim

[Embassy]

I'm quite sure a wife with an idea of submission much more in line with a patriarchal model where the husband calls the shots and the wife simply agrees would call her interpretation Biblical as well.

 

I'm sure she would. Biblical interpretations can vary. But I wanted to state that the OP's viewpoint is a valid Biblical interpretation held by many.

[WishboneDawn]

I'm sure she would. Biblical interpretations can vary. But I wanted to state that the OP's viewpoint is a valid Biblical interpretation held by many.

 

I can go with that. Too often I find "Biblical" means the one and only right way so I'm touchy. Sorry. :)

[DianeW88]

My husband and I are equals in our marriage. It is a partnership. I couldn't do it any other way. No one's decision is more important than the other one's. We discuss things and come up with solutions to problems together. He is my husband, not my parent, and I am his equal.

 

And truth be told...when push comes to shove, most of the time we do things my way. :D

[DawnM]

I can't imagine being in a submissive marriage. To me that isn't a marriage, that is a parent/child relationship.

 

We are a TEAM and he respects me enough to ask my opinion and I do the same for him.

 

There is a lot more I could say but I really don't want to get too judgmental.

 

Dawn

[Aelwydd]

because it's truly never come up. When we need to make a decision, sometimes we talk it out, sometimes we argue it out, and sometimes we just automatically know that the other is more informed and would make the best decision, so we go with it. Other times, one of us will feel very strongly about something, so that person decides (ex. Patrick really wants our girls to do Christian based science, and while I would prefer a neutral/secular science curriculum, he feels strongly, so I go with it. No biggie). We have never had a power struggle, and I have never been put in a position where I was forced, coerced, or inclined to submit to him and vice versa. He encourages me to make a lot of the decisions because I am home every day, and I am more informed about what would best for the kids and our home. And frankly, extreme submission is so foreign to us that I can't imagine what that would look like in our marriage. We make mistakes, we don't blame the other, and we learn from each other. It's all about respect. Now, of course, our marriage is far far from perfect, but this does work for us.

 

I'm not trying to insult those whose marriages operate differently. I'm simply saying that it CAN be done, and it CAN work, even in Christian families.

 

What you describe doesn't so much like "biblical" submission (I kind of hate that phrase because it's become synonymous with all kinds of legalistic crap), so much as it is Christlike.

 

I was married in a very traditional Episcopalian church, with a catholic ceremony with "obey" and the whole works. We were there because dh's mentor was the priest; I had been raised in a fundamentalist denom, and dh came from Reformed tradition. So, the whole "wifely submission" thing was pretty familiar and expected.

 

What wasn't expected was how our priest ended up being made a bishop and turning into a super traditionalist, authoritarian type. I had considered this man to be a kind of fatherly spiritual figure, and it wasn't long after I had ds, that I saw a big change.

 

Most Sundays found me downstairs in the nursery with ds (very rarely would others volunteer to watch ds so I could attend the service), and I ended up suffering from PPD. When I expressed my unhappiness, I got condescension from the priest, and it seemed like every Sunday, I heard sermons about how feminists were responsible for causing everything from Gaydom to rising sea levels. Dh was one of the people who assisted the priest, so it was always me and ds alone. He knew I was alone, but our priest insisted on dh being up there fulfilling his manly role, which I suppose was to support the priest in acting like Masters of the Universe.

 

I did express my misgivings about the character change in our priest, and my feelings of abandonment to an older Christian lady, who was dear to both of us. She turned it back on me, making it seem as if I was imagining how the priest was acting. Later on, both dh and she apologized for not listening, because they both ended up suffering hurt from the same priest (who was now a bishop).

 

Anyway, years of that kind of mistreatment, combined with the message that women are this, and men are that---it not only almost killed my faith, it put a strain on dh's and my marriage. Not because dh was ever authoritarian--he never did act in that manner towards me. Ever. But, because he felt called to a leadership position in church, and I was and am adamant that I would never, ever be married to a man in church leadership. I didn't want the pressure of that, and I didn't want my life to be ordered about an organization that practically turned me agnostic.

 

I've slowly recovered my faith over the years, but not without certain sacrifices. The first thing that went out the window was any tolerance for a-less-than-completely-equal place in my marriage. My dh never debased me, but because of church teachings, I surely debased myself, and considered myself less of a person due to "submission" teachings.

 

Dh has always felt that Christ taught submission to others as a requirement of all believers, and made no differentiation between the submission of men, from that of women. I think that it's also interesting that it was Satan, not Christ, who made an appeal to submission of others, in that he required Christ to "bow down" before him and subjugate himself.

 

As a result, dh and I regard with suspicion anyone who calls for others to submit to their leadership. Jesus submitted himself; it was Satan who sought to raise himself. Therefore, if I had to put a spiritual "value" on the traditionalist churches with men who make a show of calling on women to submit themselves to male headship, it'd be that of Pharisaical, with a spirit of anti-Christ to boot.

[Embassy]

As a result, dh and I regard with suspicion anyone who calls for others to submit to their leadership. Jesus submitted himself; it was Satan who sought to raise himself. Therefore, if I had to put a spiritual "value" on the traditionalist churches with men who make a show of calling on women to submit themselves to male headship, it'd be that of Pharisaical, with a spirit of anti-Christ to boot.

 

A nut once told me I had to submit to him because I was female and he was male.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Guess what my husband thought of that?

[Georgiana Daniels]

Whew!

 

Thought I was the only one. :tongue_smilie:

 

In our case, we are equal as far as being decision makers. I figure "submission" is more an attitude of the heart. How that plays out in daily life, I'll have to puzzle out after dinner....

[Georgiana Daniels]

PS. Haven't read all the posts yet, so maybe someone else mentioned this:

 

Isn't the word "submission" in the Greek the exact same word that's used in reference to Christians submitting to one another in general? It seems, as I recall, that we'll all called to give preference to one another out of love.

[GardenTenders/Kim]

What you describe sounds like a Biblical example of submission. Submission isn't a wife doing whatever her husband wants without having a voice. It is basically unselfishness. The husband is to love the wife and in so doing will put her needs first. The wife is to submit to the husband because she considers his needs over hers. And when both work together (husband loving and wife submitting) it is beautiful. It isn't about one person getting his/her own way, but about sacrificing needs/wants for the sake of your partner.

 

Honestly, I never truly understood submission until after I was married. It sure isn't hard to put my husband's wants and needs first when he puts my wants and needs before his own;)

:iagree:

[Hockey Mom]

We are a Christian family, and you just described our marriage. We know many other Christian families who have similar marriages where needing for the wife to submit is not an issue because of the balance they have achieved.

 

:iagree:

 

This is how our marriage works as well.

[tntgoodwin]

Do you believe the husband is the head of the household and will be held responsible for how the members of the household live?

[Aelwydd]

Do you believe the husband is the head of the household and will be held responsible for how the members of the household live?

 

Who are you asking?

[tntgoodwin]

Who are you asking?

The OP, but anyone is welcome to answer. :D

[Joker]

Do you believe the husband is the head of the household and will be held responsible for how the members of the household live?

 

No

[lovelaughs_times_three]

Dh has always felt that Christ taught submission to others as a requirement of all believers, and made no differentiation between the submission of men, from that of women. I think that it's also interesting that it was Satan, not Christ, who made an appeal to submission of others, in that he required Christ to "bow down" before him and subjugate himself.

 

As a result, dh and I regard with suspicion anyone who calls for others to submit to their leadership. Jesus submitted himself; it was Satan who sought to raise himself. Therefore, if I had to put a spiritual "value" on the traditionalist churches with men who make a show of calling on women to submit themselves to male headship, it'd be that of Pharisaical, with a spirit of anti-Christ to boot.

 

Wow! Some really good points that I've never thought of before! Thanks for sharing Rebekah!

There is a verse that says "submit one to another." There is also a verse that says that in Christ there is no male nor female. I think Satan would love it if he could keep women from realizing how very important they are to the kingdom of God, God's plans on Earth, and to Him personally. I think the extremes of the preaching/teaching of subjugation are more in lines with Satan wanting to put a heavy blanket to pull down and diminish what half the church has to offer. Christ laid down His life for the Church. This is the visual that Christ wants us to see in the men who love us. Not subjugation. I think a true Christ-like marraige helps both parties SHINE in who God made them to be! They support the best in each other, knowing that, that best was created by God and He LOVES them!

Edited July 9, 2011 by lovelaughs_times_three

[3lilreds in NC]

because it's truly never come up. When we need to make a decision, sometimes we talk it out, sometimes we argue it out, and sometimes we just automatically know that the other is more informed and would make the best decision, so we go with it. Other times, one of us will feel very strongly about something, so that person decides (ex. Patrick really wants our girls to do Christian based science, and while I would prefer a neutral/secular science curriculum, he feels strongly, so I go with it. No biggie). We have never had a power struggle, and I have never been put in a position where I was forced, coerced, or inclined to submit to him and vice versa. He encourages me to make a lot of the decisions because I am home every day, and I am more informed about what would best for the kids and our home. And frankly, extreme submission is so foreign to us that I can't imagine what that would look like in our marriage. We make mistakes, we don't blame the other, and we learn from each other. It's all about respect. Now, of course, our marriage is far far from perfect, but this does work for us.

 

I'm not trying to insult those whose marriages operate differently. I'm simply saying that it CAN be done, and it CAN work, even in Christian families.

 

To me, this is how submission is supposed to work. Each person is treated with respect, and gets to share what they think, and then a decision is reached. Submission does not mean the husband gets to dictate everything.

 

My dh and I were just talking about this. The only time I can see submission maybe being an issue is when we would have to agree to disagree, and his word would be the last one, because he *is* the head of the household. Rarely, he has told me "no" when I thought I REALLYREALLYREALLY wanted something, and in retrospect, he was right, or at least it's no longer a big deal. Most of the time, decisions are made based on the person with the most/best information. For example, I do not have much input on our investments. I have no interest in that kind of thing and really don't want to be involved. Dh is really good at it and has a good relationship with our financial advisor (if it were up to me, we wouldn't even have one). Dh does not have much to say about the curriculum I choose, except when I ask him to help me figure out where to go next. If he were to come home one day and start dictating that kind of thing, I would be certain that aliens had possessed him.

 

I really have to go to bed! I should not be reading and participating in these threads.

[FrogMom5]

Nakia- your marriage sounds like mine. And yes, we're Christains. We like to discuss and work things out together. It's a good way to be. My dh would never stand for being a dictator. He doesn't believe that is what God wants.

Denise

Edited July 9, 2011 by FrogMom5
Forgot to say

[Aelwydd]

Wow! Some really good points that I've never thought of before! Thanks for sharing Rebecca!

There is a verse that says "submit one to another." There is also a verse that says that in Christ there is no male nor female. I think Satan would love it if he could keep women from realizing how very important they are to the kingdom of God, God's plans on Earth, and to Him personally. I think the extremes of the preaching/teaching of subjugation are more in lines with Satan wanting to put a heavy blanket to pull down and diminish what half the church has to offer. Christ laid down His life for the Church. This is the visual that Christ wants us to see in the men who love us. Not subjugation. I think a true Christ-like marraige helps both parties SHINE in who God made them to be! They support the best in each other, knowing that, that best was created by God and He LOVES them!

 

I'm really glad that it resonated with you. :)

[LauraGB]

If I "submitted" to my husband, not a darn thing would ever get done. He's a great guy, a great thinker, but I'm the realist in the group. I mean, we listen to one another, we respect each other's opinions, consider them, but at the end of the day, I'm the one who has to give the final answer or the final go-ahead. I didn't ask for that responsibility, and I don't entirely love it (at all), he just came that way.

[Veritaserum]

Do you believe the husband is the head of the household and will be held responsible for how the members of the household live?

 

No. Husband and wife are equal and neither is above the other. We do not accept nor do we have a marriage in which my husband rules over me simply because he is male and I am female. We fervently believe that the concept of women submitting to men is NOT a requirement of Christianity. It seems very un-Christlike to us, actually, since He taught a message of equality and love.

 

We each tend to have jurisdictions within our marriage and family. For example, I make all of the decisions about homeschooling because he trusts me, knows I'm smart, and knows that I ultimately have far more knowledge about what will be best. I discuss things with him. Sometimes he gives me input, but the decisions are ultimately mine to make. With other things such as Dh's employment, the roles reverse. He discusses job options with me. I give input, but the decision ultimately is his to make. I trust him, I know he's smart, and I know that he will choose the job that is the best fit for him.

 

I don't see the marriages some have described here, where the husband and wife are equals, as Biblically submissive at all (great, IMO) because submission places a woman below a man simply due to her sex. I know lots of Christians redefine "submission" as some kind of equal relationship, but they way the hierarchy is described in the Bible puts woman below man and God. I see that verse as a product of the culture in which it was written and not as an ideal marriage for our time. :)