Why is there a general anti-college attitude lately?

[LibraryLover]

Oh, hey, I agree with you. BUT I'm thinking about how certain majors *really* shine at certain universities. I'm thinking about the areas where *my* kids' interests lie. There just aren't a lot of choices out there when it comes to certain fields. If yours is a major where a degree from a certain institution will open doors for you for the rest of your life... well, it might be tough to say "no."

 

I can't think of any undergrad major where that would be true, and excellent graduate research facilities exist in hundreds of schools across the US. Being excellent at what one does and having a passion for it matters most. What major are you thinking about?

 

There are over 3000 colleges in the US. Finding the right fit is important and possible.

Edited June 30, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Ester, thank you for posting that.

 

If I haven't completely alienated everyone here yet, this might do it (although I only wish to be understood, not to offend):

 

These WTM boards have been a huge contributor to my growing wariness concerning college.

 

I think I see a post every single day that goes something like this:

"Well, it must not be important, because I've never heard of that, and I have two degrees."

 

Every time, the topic in question will be something that I personally believe a child should have grasped before age 12 or so.

 

I've lost faith in the entire public education system. I believe college is proving to be as broken and ineffectual as kindergarten. (Not all colleges, not all kindergartens, of course, but the trend is definitely noticeable.) And why would that not be true? How long would colleges remain in business if they sent home everyone who could not meet the standards of yesterday?

 

The bar has been lowered. I'm not going to pay anyone to teach my child to stoop when he has been taught to high-jump.

 

(The son who wants to be a doctor will be going to college. We're working hard to help him be qualified for admittance to a great school. I'm not going to tell him to be an electrician like his Daddy when he has other gifts. But I'm not going to tell my second son that he needs college unless he also has a talent for something requiring that piece of paper.)

[Ester Maria]

And I wonder how much longer parents or teenagers will think it's smart to pay that much money just to wear pajamas all day, party all the time, and sleep in late? Wouldn't it be cheaper to, say, backpack across Europe?!

Sorry, stripe, I am not sure I am following you. :confused: Are you referring to college or something else?

[twoforjoy]

I'm not anti-college. I think the university systems that have in Europe are excellent. I would love for my children to enter a system like that.

 

I am very much troubled by our American system, though. College costs are rising much, much faster than inflation, and wages are stagnating. Students are coming out with debt that they can't pay off even if they are fortunate enough to find a job. And that's only going to get worse.

 

I can't blame parents who took a second mortgage on their home and had their kids get $20K into debt to finance a college education being bitter and cynical when said child hasn't been able to find a job after two years of looking and is living back at home. And sadly that is the reality for many, many families right now.

[Ester Maria]

I think the university systems that have in Europe are excellent. I would love for my children to enter a system like that.

They were. Until they got neoliberalized, bolognized, and so forth. Plus "educational" reform after reform, and they are doing it to high schools too. It is awful to watch.

The quality remains for a while more because the professors have not changed yet, there has not been a shift of generation yet, but in my darker moments I have very paranoid thoughts about what it is going to look like in fifty years.

 

My main concern are humanities. Many other fields need to be good for industry, but what is going on with humanities is just... impardonable.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Ester Maria

[LibraryLover]

I can't seem to find the post about the undergrad chemist making $11/ hr. I have a thought about that. ;) He should go to grad school. It will open doors and he will be able to pay off those loans, and perhaps without borrowing another dime.

 

Science graduate students have opportunity to TA. My own scientist dh never paid one cent of tuition or took out a loan after his BA. It was all funded by his TA stipends, with money left over for modest rent. My dh sees lots of young biologists, chemists etc., without grad degrees and it's true there isn't much they can do with them, or pay them. Mostly these fields require a grad degree. You might not get a good university job, which are highly competitive , but you can do well in some industry areas with an MA.

 

I wouldn't encourage him to stop now.

Edited July 3, 2011 by LibraryLover

[stripe]

Sorry, stripe, I am not sure I am following you. :confused: Are you referring to college or something else?

 

Yes, that seems to be the reason for going to college -- to get out of their parents house and par-tay all the time, not because they want to read, learn, or study. So why not go traveling or whatever, why rack up the huge bill?

[Audrey]

There is definitely some anti-intellectualism in the air. That's all I'm willing to say about it here. ;)

:iagree: But, I only hear it on the wind from the south.

[creekland]

There are more than 7 colleges in the US. An excellent school does not have to be Ivy.

 

For the record... there are 8 Ivy League schools:

 

Harvard

Yale

Princeton

Dartmouth

Brown

Columbia

Cornell

U Penn

 

;)

 

And yes, there are FAR more schools than just those! I won't go so far as to say all of them are excellent overall, but there are many options to get a respected, useful, degree from both state and private colleges & universities.

 

That said, for those in the under $60,000 income bracket, some of the Ivies are FREE (with no loans, but with work study) for students who can get in. Ivies don't offer merit aid, but some are certainly superb with need-based aid. (Need based aid is offered at some of the Ivies for incomes up to $180,000.)

 

Yes, middle son is on the college hunt. He might consider an Ivy with good aid. We're still thinking about it and will need to visit to see if it would be a good fit. Of course, there's no guarantee he'll get in even with high stats (7% acceptance rate last year).

[Daisy]

I didn't read all the replies. I think it is normal to develop those attitudes when higher education is so expensive and unemployement is so high.

 

If you can't afford it or you are without a job in spite of it, you are more likely to find reasons why it isn't worth it.

 

That's my two cents anyway.

 

I'll add that I do believe that education is seriously a mess in this country and that includes higher education. However, I'm not willing to throw it all out the window either.

[DarlaS]

Would that only high school dropouts worked hard jobs for $10 or less an hour.

 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2010/12/more-from-the-dog-walkers-to-dominatrices-malemployed-college-graduates.html

 

I know many, many people with degrees (all sorts! Alphabet soup!) who cannot find a job or only menial labor.

 

It's not very surprising that those four graduates with degrees in anthropology, literature, history and creative writing are having a hard time finding work in their field. :001_huh:

 

Is it really shocking to young people today that if you spend 80k on a degree in comparative literature, you may not be able to pay that back?

 

Yes, I realize there are lots of people with more practical degrees out there not working in their field. But this was a no-brainer.

[HiddenJewel]

Possibly because we have run across so many people who have a college degree and can't apply it in real life. But even with that I want my children to have a college degree so they can at least get called for a job interview.

[rieshy]

I"m not seeing or hearing any, "anti-intellectualism,"or "college is elitest" sort of talk. I am hearing a lot of home schoolers questioning the status quo.

 

Imagine that, homeschoolers questioning the status quo:)

 

I imagine the lousy economy has a lot to do with it. I also think that the current climate on many campuses has to do with it. Remember the professor in the news somewhere in Colorado teaching that the Holocast was made up by the Jews? Or that student that won the right to go to class naked. Not to mention millions spent on football teams at the expense of research.

 

I know these are just odd examples but my brain is fuzzy with too little sleep.

 

Both my husband and I have degrees and come from families with advanced degrees. We've never regretted our degrees and what we learned to get them. Yet neither of us has ever worked in our degree field.

 

My husband has been in freelance video-production for years. He often sees kids coming out with fresh degrees in production and then finds that they were trained on equipment and software that was already out of date when they started school.

 

That said, because of the slow economy and our children's health issues my husband just took a position with a large company that required a college degree. He was happy he had that piece of paper.

 

Our oldest wants to go into production. We will not allow him to take out any loans. If he wanted to be in a different field- we might think differently.

 

I think the questioning is positive. Quality needs to keep up with costs.

[Niffercoo]

I'm not anti-college. Not at all. But I am pro-options. Do any of you know what it's like to have a child for whom traditional college is not an option? A child with an LD or other condition that makes the idea of a 4 year degree unrealistic? If not, then you have no idea how disheartening and downright scary it is to think that your child won't even have the opportunity of working hard to support themselves, let alone a family, just because they have been born with some neurological glitches. My son is a great kid and a hard worker. He is kind, loves little kids, and is very polite to everyone. He WANTS to live on his own and have a family. He wants to have a decent job so he can work hard, move out, and support himself. Watching him struggle with school has always been hard for me, but to watch him over the last few years come to terms with his limitations, especially when "4 year degree" is all that's preached to kids these days, has been nothing short of heartbreaking.

 

It's sad to me that there is no middle ground anymore. Austin knows he has a hard road ahead of him as he begins high school work this year. He's willing to work as hard as he needs to, but there are some things that might be beyond him.

[Plucky]

I'm not anti-college. Not at all. But I am pro-options. Do any of you know what it's like to have a child for whom traditional college is not an option? A child with an LD or other condition that makes the idea of a 4 year degree unrealistic? If not, then you have no idea how disheartening and downright scary it is to think that your child won't even have the opportunity of working hard to support themselves, let alone a family, just because they have been born with some neurological glitches. My son is a great kid and a hard worker. He is kind, loves little kids, and is very polite to everyone. He WANTS to live on his own and have a family. He wants to have a decent job so he can work hard, move out, and support himself. Watching him struggle with school has always been hard for me, but to watch him over the last few years come to terms with his limitations, especially when "4 year degree" is all that's preached to kids these days, has been nothing short of heartbreaking.

 

It's sad to me that there is no middle ground anymore. Austin knows he has a hard road ahead of him as he begins high school work this year. He's willing to work as hard as he needs to, but there are some things that might be beyond him.

 

That is hard. My adhd w/LDs ds is gifted, too. I wonder how he will ever get into a good college since he is such an outside of the box thinker (colleges claim they like that but from what I've observed they do not). He wavers between college and another route as he wants to be a professional musician.

[LibraryLover]

;)

Edited July 3, 2011 by LibraryLover
too much

[SWinner]

The college question has been brewing for quite a while, in part due to the ever increasing cost. Now, with general revenue's down, those costs will increase even more. State U's have begun limiting enrollment for in state's, giving more time for out of states & internationals, who pay more.

 

The other part is the quality of education. Small, private (& very expensive) schools are still doing a good job, but with the ever increasing numbers of students large univ's. are cranking out (on ever decreasing budgets), are they really getting an education, or are they just taking a bunch of classes?

 

I think the big question at the end of the day (or 4-6 years), Was the money well spent & how long is it going to take to pay back?

[Jane in NC]

The anti-college fervor is newer, I think, than the anti-intellectual sentiments that have been bombarding us for a while here in the States. There are certain pundits who mock academics or members of think tanks. In my opinion, this has added to the noise.

 

I grew up in the Midwest at a time when automobile factories paid more than some jobs requiring a diploma. In many families, particularly first or second generation immigrants, college grads were honored. It was not about the pay--it was about the accomplishment.

[Haiku]

 

I just don't get this education is for elitists thing that's going on lately.

 

I haven't seen that attitude, but I have seen a lot of, "College costs an astronomical amount and doesn't guarantee a well-paying job anymore, so it might not be the best decision in this day and age."

 

Tara

[LibraryLover]

That is hard. My adhd w/LDs ds is gifted, too. I wonder how he will ever get into a good college since he is such an outside of the box thinker (colleges claim they like that but from what I've observed they do not). He wavers between college and another route as he wants to be a professional musician.

 

 

If he does want college, a musical person can take classes in music as a Continuing Ed student. He can also take remedial basic classes. While I know many folks here do not want to see college be about remedial classes, it's a simple fact that non-traditional learners often need these, and may also need to take a circuitous route to their goals. If he can wow in continuing Ed, he can transfer those credits towards a degree. He also might make music connections within his own community. Whatever he does will help him decide the next step. He does not have to enroll in a traditional full time college program right out of the gate.

 

He might also consider a neurological workup and perhaps meds or a change of meds or protocol. It might help him reach his goals. (I am not assuming this hasn't been done or isn’t being considered. I'm just putting the thoughts out there, in case.:) College or not, folks with ADD challenges still have to make a living. One of my children is a bright non- traditional learner, so I am familiar with the frustrations and challenges the educational world can pose for these young people.

Edited June 30, 2011 by LibraryLover

[stripe]

"College costs an astronomical amount and doesn't guarantee a well-paying job anymore,

 

 

<-- and then there was the study that college seniors knew slightly less than they did as freshmen....

 

I don't think it should be seen as a waste of time to study history or literature in college. In fact, I just heard of a study of how many art grads had jobs, and so many people think that's a waste. But the problem is global.

 

I see tons of job ads that want someone with a master's and 5 + years of experience, paying around $32,000.

[Plucky]

He's had lots of evaluation. Meds have helped immensely. He's actually doing really well now, but that is because I know what he needs and we go over things until they are mastered. He would sink in ps. I don't know what his future will be. I think he'll do well in college, but may need extra time to mature. He is so very gifted musically. I worry too much I'm sure.

Edited June 30, 2011 by True Blue

[twoforjoy]

I see tons of job ads that want someone with a master's and 5 + years of experience, paying around $32,000.

 

I live in an area with a horrible economy, but when I was job searching several years back, jobs looking for somebody with a BA and 3-5 years experience, paying $18-20K, were typical of what was out there.

 

My husband made $24K when he began his job. He had a master's degree and about five years of research experience at the time.

 

This isn't about individuals making bad choices. This is about a broken system, where college costs keep rising and wages for new grads (those lucky enough to find jobs) aren't even close to keeping pace.

[LibraryLover]

He's had lots of evaluation. Meds have helped immensely. He's actually doing really well now, but that is because I know what he needs and we go over things until they are mastered. He would sink in ps. I don't know what his future will be. I think he'll do well in college, but may need extra time to mature. He is so very gifted musically. I worry too much I'm sure.

 

 

:) We all worry. It's what we do. It's why we are so proactive as parents. :)

 

Can I beg you to delete my post. I fixed it when I saw all the verb issues. I hate to sound too stupid here. lol

Edited June 30, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Plucky]

:) We all worry. It's what we do. It's why we are so proactive as parents. :)

 

Can I beg you to delete my post. I fixed it when I saw all the verb issues. I hate to sound too stupid here. lol

 

I deleted it. I wouldn't worry about verb issues. This is a message board. :lol:

[LibraryLover]

:D That there are.

 

I do know that, but I did not type it, so point. :)

 

Or maybe I am anti-Cornell, or perhaps UPenn is just too far away. lol ;)

 

For the record... there are 8 Ivy League schools:

 

Harvard

Yale

Princeton

Dartmouth

Brown

Columbia

Cornell

U Penn

 

;)

 

 

QUOTE]

[Lady Florida.]

I'm not anti-college. Not at all. But I am pro-options. Do any of you know what it's like to have a child for whom traditional college is not an option?

 

I'm also pro-options. And I do know what it's like. My son has ADHD, and seems to have some learning disabilities to go along with it. College is probably not going to be an option for him. My hope is that he will be able to find a way to make a decent living at something he enjoys, without a degree.

 

 

he is such an outside of the box thinker (colleges claim they like that but from what I've observed they do not).

:iagree:I wonder if they even know what it means to think out of the box.

 

I haven't seen that attitude, but I have seen a lot of, "College costs an astronomical amount and doesn't guarantee a well-paying job anymore, so it might not be the best decision in this day and age."

 

Tara

 

Maybe that's it. Maybe it's what you get for the cost - a big loan payment and no job in your field.

 

I appreciate all the responses, as I was truly wondering where the attitude came from. As I said, I see it both in and outside the homeschool community.

 

I'm a bit surprised at having started a controversial thread. I like to post in such threads, but didn't intend to start one. Now when someone says "I didn't mean to start a controversial thread" I'll be more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt. :) As I mentioned in my OP, I'm neither pro nor anti college. I am only frustrated by those who only see one right way - both those who think you must go to college, and those who think you shouldn't. Currently, those who think you shouldn't go seem to be the yelling the loudest. I think it should be a personal decision.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I haven't seen an "anti-college" mentality. As others have mentioned, however, I know many people who are wondering whether or not attending college is a wise decision since there are so many college-educated people without jobs right now. (Of course, there are also plenty of people without college educations who are unemployed right now as well.)

 

With my own son, we're preparing him for college. I won't "force" him to go (not that I could anyway), but I will encourage him to go. We as a family have been hurt by dh's lack of a degree, and I want my son to have whatever little advantage a degree might give him. As of right now, anything that he is considering requires a degree anyway.

[Crimson Wife]

I am disgusted by reports of binge drinking and rampant cheating on campuses.

 

Sure, because teenagers and 20somethings who don't attend college *NEVER* binge drink or sleep around. No, they are *ALL* paragons of virtue who sit around on Saturday nights chastely sipping lemonade and playing pinochle. :rolleyes:

 

I'd rather have a self-educated son who is a self-made man than an impoverished, debt-riddled son who learned all manner of complacency, apathy, and immorality at an expensive college institution and yet still faces no job opportunities.

 

Nobody "learns" immorality on a college campus. Either your kid has internalized the family's values by the time he's 18 or he hasn't. The kid who will behave immorally in a college setting would do the same if he went to work full-time and got his own apartment.

 

Here are some statistics for you: the chance that a woman with only a high school education or less will get bear a child out of wedlock is 54% vs. only 6% for women who have a bachelor's degree or higher. The divorce rate is much higher as well.

 

A 4 yr. university isn't for everyone and certainly there are plenty of folks who are better off going a different route- trade school, an apprenticeship, starting a business, etc. But those who choose not to attend college are hardly more "moral" than those who choose to go.

[twoforjoy]

Maybe that's it. Maybe it's what you get for the cost - a big loan payment and no job in your field.

 

I do think for many people that's it.

 

The thing is, you can point to how a college degree will pay off down the line, but many people in their 20s are frustrated because they are trying to start their lives, and being saddled with a huge load of student loan debt while being unable to find a good-paying job, if they can find a job at all, is very frustrating. People want to be starting their lives. They want to be marrying, starting families, putting down payments on homes, and those things seem more and more out of reach. At the very time when these young people should be able to start building their lives, they can't. Sure, when they are in their 40s, they'll probably begin reaping the rewards of their college degree, as their peers who didn't go to college hit ceilings in salary and advancements. But, for now, they're stuck trying to figure out how to pay $300+/month on student loans on top of all of their other expenses, when they are barely making more than minimum wage, and peers who didn't go to college are, at this point, often doing better.

Edited June 30, 2011 by twoforjoy

[LibraryLover]

<-- and then there was the study that college seniors knew slightly less than they did as freshmen....

 

I don't think it should be seen as a waste of time to study history or literature in college. In fact, I just heard of a study of how many art grads had jobs, and so many people think that's a waste. But the problem is global.

 

QUOTE]

 

 

Absolutely, and in a number of negative ways. Oh, I am going back to read and I see EM has taken it on. :)

[Enough]

Maybe it's the college expense bubble getting ready to burst. The media may be specifically pushing that agenda as well. Total speculation though.

 

This.

 

I'm not against college in the slightest and any homeschooling or education of any sort my kids do will be college preparatory. (Yes, I will give them the choice about whether to go or not and will not die if they choose not to go.)

 

I am, however, 100% against (and at times horrified/repulsed by) exorbitant college tuition- especially with our economy the way it is and no end in sight. Sadly, college is out of reach for many, many families today- and it has NOTHING to do with how much they value education. It is wholly due to the COST of education.

[stripe]

Nobody "learns" immorality on a college campus. Either your kid has internalized the family's values by the time he's 18 or he hasn't.

I really want to agree with you.

 

But.

 

I've seen studies in a number of places that someone's perception of others' behaviors -- even if false! -- make them feel something is normal. I have seen separate studies on both binge drinking and "hooking up." People believe everyone does those things, so they feel an expectation to do so (or that there is no alternative, or....whatever). One technique some colleges have used is to publish statistics of how many students ACTUALLY do those things, to discourage students from participating. I know I've read about Michigan State's Social Norms project.

 

I do think there is an atmosphere that is weirdly adult in content (for example alcohol and sexuality) without adult responsibilities (jobs, kids, bills coming due) in college that is different from most other places people experience. It is sort of the freedom of being a kid with the fun of being an adult. This is what I was referring to with wearing PJs all day, staying up late partying, and having easy access to a large number of cute, healthy, young potential sex partners that is generally absent in the "real world."

[LibraryLover]

I deleted it. I wouldn't worry about verb issues. This is a message board. :lol:

 

 

Sometimes I cringe when reading my own messages. Message boards are basically conversation, so I tend to type in conversation vein. Messages, however conversational, live forever in print, at least somewhere on the web. The thought makes me crazy and I wish I could stop posting. lol

 

I need an editor. I wish I had the money for one. lol

Edited June 30, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Crimson Wife]

I do think there is an atmosphere that is weirdly adult in content (for example alcohol and sexuality) without adult responsibilities (jobs, kids, bills coming due) in college that is different from most other places people experience. It is sort of the freedom of being a kid with the fun of being an adult. This is what I was referring to with wearing PJs all day, staying up late partying, and having easy access to a large number of cute, healthy, young potential sex partners that is generally absent in the "real world."

 

I'm just saying that it's been my observation that most teenagers and young 20somethings tend to binge drink and sleep around whether or not they attend college. If anything, the jr. enlisted soldiers we knew when DH was an Army officer as a group were actually *WORSE* than his college fraternity brothers in terms of their substance use and promiscuity.

[stripe]

I agree, it's not necessarily the location, but the age.

[ChristineW]

My kids think "Go Bears!" means "Go, Cal!" They watch mommy and daddy playfight fight when UCLA and USC play football against each other. Mommy and Daddy and all the grandparents have advanced degrees. You bet your bippy that my three are going to college.

 

The unemployment rate for college grads is 4.2%; for high school graduates it is 9.7%. Some degrees are more valuable than others, but for most who complete their degree it is well worth it.

[mom4him]

My personal belief is this: If the field you want to go into requires a degree, go to college. If you want a liberal arts education and can afford it, go to college. If you want the college experience and can afford it, go to college. If you want to self-educate, don't go to college. If you want to be an entrepreneur and feel you don't need college, don't go. In other words, do what works best for you.

:iagree:My attitude on this has been this for years though, no change

 

I just don't get this education is for elitists thing that's going on lately. Thoughts? Is anyone else seeing this in their IRL circle too?

I don't feel this. I have seen many a young person go to college, accumulate huge loans only because that person was pressured into doing so. In the end they did something that was totally out of the field they had become educated in or spent several years doing what they were educated in and hating it. I think that is sad.

[creekland]

I do think there is an atmosphere that is weirdly adult in content (for example alcohol and sexuality) without adult responsibilities (jobs, kids, bills coming due) in college that is different from most other places people experience. It is sort of the freedom of being a kid with the fun of being an adult. This is what I was referring to with wearing PJs all day, staying up late partying, and having easy access to a large number of cute, healthy, young potential sex partners that is generally absent in the "real world."

 

Umm, this is all going on in our high school where I work. Kids brag (or fight) about it all the time It was going on in high school when I was in school too.

 

Kids don't learn this stuff in college - unless maybe they are the very sheltered variety of homeschooler? Mine know it goes on and that several choose that path. They also know we don't choose it (and why). When they get on their own (in college or outside of it) they'll choose their path for themselves and there's nothing, as parents, we can do about it. We could only educate them up to a point.

[TheAutumnOak]

Nobody "learns" immorality on a college campus. Either your kid has internalized the family's values by the time he's 18 or he hasn't. The kid who will behave immorally in a college setting would do the same if he went to work full-time and got his own apartment.

 

 

I don't think a person learns immorality on a college campus...Some people will behave immorally regardless, but there is something to be said for "bad company corrupts good character"...

[LauraGB]

Yes, of course, there are plenty of respectable, life-affirming, important tasks to be done, jobs to be had, that don't require a college degree. But, reality is, those jobs, on average, are for people who will work FOR those with advanced degrees, and will pay MUCH less than those with advanced degrees.Sure, if you have limits due to intellectual ability, motivation, family circumstance, whatever, then, fine, don't go to college. We need folks to do our hair, grow our food, fix our cars, fix our a/c, serve our food, run retail stores. . . Those, and many others, are important and respectable jobs. There are MANY other boring, repetitive, dangerous, poorly paid, soul-sucking, tedious, irritating, awful jobs out there. . . Someone's got to do them. But, I sure wouldn't want to do them, and I wouldn't want my kids to either.

 

It's obvious you feel very strongly about your position. So, maybe I am misunderstanding, but surely you don't feel that people who choose not to go to college have limited intellectual ability...right?

 

And surely you can understand that a lot of those "soul-sucking" jobs the people with a "higher education" depend upon can have owners who aren't college grads, right? I mean, for example, the mechanic who owns his own shop - he's a well paid fellow, indeed, and I'm going to guess when he's at home with his family or talking with his customers and friends, he might not actually be just talking about cars - he might actually have a functioning brain in his head and can intelligently discuss philosophy, politics, history and just about anything anyone might throw at him, even if he didn't attend college.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The class distinction comes from both sides on occasion, but lately, I've noticed it coming primarily from "well educated, intellectual" individuals, ones who wouldn't consider doing those "well respected" menial jobs, without really understanding that they are just making a very nice case for skipping college all together and eventually becoming the person who hires college grads who can't find a job in their field.

 

I'm not opposed to college by any means. It's absolutely necessary for many occupations. But it really isn't necessary for so many more. College might be catastrophically stifling to a lot of brilliant minds who see things just a little bit differently and that should be taken into consideration. Taking classes in areas of interest is an option, but it wouldn't gain the same sort of "respect" in many circles.

Edited June 30, 2011 by LauraGB

[JudyJudyJudy]

Umm, this is all going on in our high school where I work. Kids brag (or fight) about it all the time It was going on in high school when I was in school too.

 

Kids don't learn this stuff in college - unless maybe they are the very sheltered variety of homeschooler? Mine know it goes on and that several choose that path. They also know we don't choose it (and why). When they get on their own (in college or outside of it) they'll choose their path for themselves and there's nothing, as parents, we can do about it. We could only educate them up to a point.

It's now going on in many middle schools. :(

[LibraryLover]

I agree, it's not necessarily the location, but the age.

 

 

Yes, maturity matters. Mental health matters as much.

 

Too many kids starting school too young, partly. Is red- shirting worse than binge drinking at 17 or 18 or 19?

 

Ime, the kids who were getting drunk regularly and hooking up randomly were either too young, too immature, or damaged in some way, mostly girls who has been sexaully or otherwise abused as kids.

 

I think a little alcohol or sexual experimentation is fairly 'normal' if done safely (sort of like the Amish rumspriga), although I understand many people feel that this is wrong, period. Going hog wild, failing classes, putting yourself in danger, harming others etc is when mental health (bio or psychological) comes into play.

Edited July 2, 2011 by LibraryLover

[YLVD]

I haven't seen it much on FB as most of my friends are big into college, etc

 

I will never understand anti-education and anti-intellectualism. I believe that anti-intellectualism is rampant in the US, especially in some parts of the United States. I could go on and on as to some of the reasons why but I don't want to offend people.

 

I admit to being shocked at seeing it here. To me, it's like saying that classical education is a waste. To spend the time that it takes to homeschool and educate children in such an extensive and intense way, and then be somewhat anti-college, etc...is honestly very strange to me.

[YLVD]

I think a lot of it stems from the fact that so many people are going deeply into debt and then not using their degree. Or their degree is just a check box on an application for work that has nothing to do with their degree.

I also think that as a society we are starting to look backwards, we're looking for the "good ol' days" so to speak, I think part of that is the idea that you work a job because you're good at it, not because you have a piece of paper that says you know about it....

 

That is the rub with me. College is not about just getting a job.

[YLVD]

I'm about as snobby and elitist as Hamburger Helper and I agree with you. I REALLY want my kids to go to college. I REALLY feel like it was my ticket out of poverty and zero opportunity otherwise.

 

:iagree:

 

I also wanted to add that much of what I'm seeing IRL is what I've seen stated earlier in this thread. MORE people are realizing how much a college degree will push them forward. That is especially true for people that lost jobs due to the economy, and have to compete with others with degrees just to get an entry-level position.

[LibraryLover]

:iagree: Good post. :) lol

 

Sure, because teenagers and 20somethings who don't attend college *NEVER* binge drink or sleep around. No, they are *ALL* paragons of virtue who sit around on Saturday nights chastely sipping lemonade and playing pinochle. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Nobody "learns" immorality on a college campus. Either your kid has internalized the family's values by the time he's 18 or he hasn't. The kid who will behave immorally in a college setting would do the same if he went to work full-time and got his own apartment.

 

Here are some statistics for you: the chance that a woman with only a high school education or less will get bear a child out of wedlock is 54% vs. only 6% for women who have a bachelor's degree or higher. The divorce rate is much higher as well.

 

A 4 yr. university isn't for everyone and certainly there are plenty of folks who are better off going a different route- trade school, an apprenticeship, starting a business, etc. But those who choose not to attend college are hardly more "moral" than those who choose to go.

[butterflymommy]

My impression is that it's more of an anti-going-into-massive-debt for college attitude than a "college is for elitists" attitude. Recent college graduates are facing a very tough job market, and many are not able to find work within their field of study. Add to this astronomical student loans (for some, not all) and it's no wonder there is negativity out there.

[catz]

I haven't seen it much on FB as most of my friends are big into college, etc

 

I will never understand anti-education and anti-intellectualism. I believe that anti-intellectualism is rampant in the US, especially in some parts of the United States. I could go on and on as to some of the reasons why but I don't want to offend people.

 

I admit to being shocked at seeing it here. To me, it's like saying that classical education is a waste. To spend the time that it takes to homeschool and educate children in such an extensive and intense way, and then be somewhat anti-college, etc...is honestly very strange to me.

 

:iagree:I go about homeschooling here as if my kids are college bound. I consider us doing "college prep". If my child came to me and said they didn't want to attend college, they would need to have a solid plan in place about what their future plans are and would have to show a high level of self motivation. Basically, we talk now as if that is an expectation for our family and something major would need to happen for that to change.

 

My DH and I both have 2 degrees and feel like college was important to us, intellectually and otherwise. We likely wouldn't be in the financial position to consider homechooling for our kids if we didn't have these degrees. Neither of us had any college debt by the time we were married.

 

That said, I think this emphasis on big name/Ivy League degrees and raking in tons of student debt is ridiculous. You can get a high quality college education without being in debt for the rest of your life. Both my husband and I did it. If my kids were interested in Ivy Leagues for undergrad, I'd tell them to start applying for scholarships or to set their sights on the Ivys for grad school when they could do work study.

[Night Elf]

That's not the attitude my family has been experiencing lately. Just the opposite really. But I posted about that recently. :(

 

BTW, I'm not anti-college at all. I'm anti-labelling people as losers and treating them like sub-humans for choosing not to go to college, which unfortunately, is the attitude my dd19 is hearing weekly.