Why is there a general anti-college attitude lately?

[angela in ohio]

Were talking about earning potential over a lifetime. What one makes the first few years is not necessarily representative of future earnings.

 

We experienced this. Many of dh's friends got jobs out of high school in construction or trades making good money. We were living on nothing putting him through college. There were many, many days we questioned the decision. But now he has a recession-proof job and a much higher income. It took a few years to make up the cost of college and lost income, but now we are ahead. It was definitely worth the sacrifice.

[angela in ohio]

People want to go into computer programming because they like computer games, not because they like coding.

 

That's my favorite one. "Johnny is playing video games all day and neglecting his school work so that he can be a computer programmer and make big bucks." :lol:

[angela in ohio]

It isn't about intelligence or pedigree. College degrees are valued in part because they show that the person can commit to getting one, staying the course and work towards that degree. That is valuable to employers and it makes sense to me.

 

Well, there's that, plus the often forgotten fact that a college degree teaches you to do the job in the vast majority of cases. Everyone who "never uses what they learned" or "didn't learn anything anyway" is outspoken, but I'm willing to bet that most people are using the education they got in college. I know dh is, I know my dentist is, I know my accountant is, I know my math professor is...

[Jyniffrec]

And picture books and National Geographic specials are a lot more exciting than brushing sand off Montana work sites. My oldest is 22, and so many of his little friends wanted to be palentologists and none are. :( Although there is a geologist. So that's something. :)

 

It's kind of sad, but it's the nature of the grammar age. "Fire is so exciting! I want to be a fire-fighter! Police cares are so flashy and fast! I want to be an officer!" " I get to pick something from the treasure chest at the dentist office! I want to be a dentist!" That's my favorite one, btw. :) lol

 

Our 7yo dd wants to be a dentist for the *money*. Is that more practical? :lol:

[twoforjoy]

 

The attitude that I as a "good and responsible" parent am obligated to fork over tens of thousands of dollars for my kids' education, BUT parents are then told that they are hovering if they want to know about grades, want to be informed of life threatening mental health issues, or want to know if their child was assaulted on campus.

 

It's not that they are hovering, it's that they are asking for information that it is illegal to give out. It's that an 18 year old is a legal adult, and so legal rights they didn't have before kick in. It's not just parents you can't discuss grades with. I cannot discuss my students' grades with ANYBODY without written permission.

 

If the lines of communication you have with your child shut down to the point where he or she won't talk about grades or mental health issue or assaults, then that's a serious problem in the parent-child relationship. I would not blame the school for that.

[MrsBasil]

I think some of it is push back from those who didn't go to college and have spent years and years and years hearing about how not going meant you were uneducated, not qualified to do much of anything, unintelligent, stupid, worthless, and never going to make anything of yourself.

[Carol in Cal.]

I am anti-college right now and don't plan on forcing my kids to go if they don't want to. I HIGHLY value education. It will be strongly enforced, but college, not so much. My husband and I both have college degrees. mine in elementary education, his in chemistry. He is working at a lab in a hospital as a SECRETARY for 11.50 an hour, becuase unless he goes on for his masters, he can't do anything with a chemistry degree. We are already 40,000 in debt just from his student loans, probably more once you count intrest. He loans are $300 a month. We can't even afford rent, let alone another $300 a month bill. And he can't go to grad school unless he quits the job he has now which we also can't afford. I have a degree as well. I don't have an education job. I work at Dunkin Donuts and Walmart, both for $8.00 because no one is hiring. I can't sub or else I'd have to put my kids in daycare and it's just not worth it or the unpredictibleness of subbing. I've got 60,000 in loans...not counting intrest. thank god i can still defer, altho we won't be able to pay those either. College? All it's done is get us into debt that we'll never be able to get out of and affected not only our lives in a negative way, but also our children's. Why would I want my kids to go through this? Everything I learned in college, my kids could learn by reading textbooks if they wanted. Maybe an associates degree or trade school like nursing or something, but not a 4 year school unless things drastically change.

 

I have a chemical engineering degree, and one of the reasons I majored in Chem E was that chemistry required a graduate degree to get a decent job. This was clear even back in the 70's. Having said that, there used to be graduate fellowships and TA jobs that more or less paid for masters and PhD work, so it was pretty much understood that once you paid for the BS you didn't have to worry too much about tuition from then on. Isn't that the case anymore?

 

Also, there are some companies that hire people with a BS in chemistry as if they have an engineering degree--IBM comes to mind. And with a BS he should be eligible to apply for a government or university lab tech job with good benefits albeit not terribly great pay, but also the possibility of going back to school on the company dime.

 

Just a few thoughts.

[Carol in Cal.]

Sure, because teenagers and 20somethings who don't attend college *NEVER* binge drink or sleep around. No, they are *ALL* paragons of virtue who sit around on Saturday nights chastely sipping lemonade and playing pinochle. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

 

The whole college binge thing is not new.

It shows up in Louisa May Alcott books written in the mid to late 1800's, for heaven sakes. Specifically "Little Women" and "An Old Fashioned Girl".

[YLVD]

Two examples come to mind:

 

A woman I know (we were good friends in our teens) majored in Medieval Lit, loved every minute of it, and now works as a computer programmer.

 

My Dad had a student who majored in Ancient Near Eastern studies (because it interested her) and then was accepted into a highly competitive Med school. (I bet she stood out among all of the applicants who majored in Biology! :))

 

So, studying something one loves/has a passion for doesn't necessarily have to lead to a job in that field (or nowhere). How wonderful for the above people that they got to study something they really, really loved, and then go on to jobs/studies that lead to a decent income. Best of both worlds, imo.

 

:iagree:

[YLVD]

IME, working in one company for a length of time shows the same thing. It shows commitment and it shows a potential job candidate is likely someone that can be relied on. It also shows that they have real work experience, which is worth far more that just showing up at a desk that you paid money to sit at for four years.

 

I do plan on having my kids participate in the Running Start program when they are 16 or so. This way they should be able to earn a 2 year degree before they officially graduate our homeschool and they won't have to go into debt to do it.

 

And while I will encourage them to attend college for a 4 year degree, I will certainly not be disappointed if they pursue other valid options. I don't want my kids to spend their lives trying just to "find" a job. They should know how and have motivation to make their own job, rather than just vying for what's out there.

 

In the work world, it generally does not. This is just my experience in recruiting and hiring. I did it for years and that just isn't the case, IME. Most career positions these days require that degree and the experience.

 

I do think that for certain vocations, such as dental hygiene, you can finish up a degree and do well, without a bachelor's degree. Those are specialized fields though.

 

When I was attending college, I started at community college before university, I did clerical work in our schools running start department. It can be an excellent way to go!

[YLVD]

:iagree: My dh went to Berkeley before the USMC and employer's thought he was something special. It's crazy how far he has advanced in the dozen years since he left the Marines. We've been very fortunate and he has advised his nieces/nephews to try and do both. They seem to view him as someone with a lot of loyalty and follow through. They place a lot of trust in him and its paid off for us so far.

 

There is something special about those that have the military plus college experience. My SO went to college, then military and is finishing up college now.

 

I worked with a few people with this combo over the years and they were the best workers, responsible, disciplined etc..that I have ever encountered!

[creekland]

I agree with most of what you said (ok, probably all of it).

 

I also have a pretty good amount of frustration and some times anger at the college industry.

 

Things that frustrate me include:

 

The attitude that I as a "good and responsible" parent am obligated to fork over tens of thousands of dollars for my kids' education, BUT parents are then told that they are hovering if they want to know about grades, want to be informed of life threatening mental health issues, or want to know if their child was assaulted on campus. In fact there seems to be a strong preference toward separating a college student from the beliefs and views that his family holds in order to help him be more "enlightened" while at the same time, cleaving close to the parents' purse for the funding to do all this self-investigation.

 

Colleges can't seem to commit to providing enough sections of courses so that students who are willing to put in the effort are able to graduate within four years.

 

Colleges seem to not even understand the outrage about things like S3x Week, public demonstrations of b0ndage in class or presentations, speaking engagements or positions held by admitted terrorists, campaigns to celebrate men who murdered police officers, denegration of conservative or Christian views on campus, or a general enculturation of the idea that college students ought to be a semi-professional protesting class.

 

Inflation of tuition amounts that are well above the general inflation rates in the country (and defintely seem out of whack when there is so much unemployment).

 

A system of competition that seems to reward students more for having interesting stories than for being nose to the grindstone students. A system of financing college that seems to penalize thrift and personal responsibility and reward families who went into more debt than was prudent.

 

In general, when I am considering college I get hit with a feeling that we'll be paying through the nose for a degree that won't represent the excellence it once did, may represent an institution that will actively work to impress on our children that our family's values are wrong and will exhibit a certain arrogance about the whole process. When I read articles about many colleges, I feel patronized, ridiculed and despised as anything other than a purse that should sit down and keep quiet while they reform the leaders of tomorrow.

 

DH and I each have 4 year and graduate degrees. We worked our butts off to get them and to pay for them without going into debt for anything but our servitude to the military.

 

I don't expect that my kids will end up going to a decidedly Christian school. But I do feel free to tell them that I won't be interested in sending scores of thousands of dollars to institutions that seem to despise the values that earned that money. We intend to be very aware buyers who are selective about institutions and degree programs.

 

:iagree: One thing that has been helpful for us in our college search has been, "The Right Guide To College."

 

http://www.collegeguide.org/about_crc.aspx

 

I absolutely will not pay a dime toward any college that gets a red light and my boys know it. The write ups about each college has been a great insight into the campus "flavor."

 

Unfortunately, not all colleges are reviewed by them, but many of those we are considering are.

[Jayne J]

I agree with most of what you said (ok, probably all of it).

 

I also have a pretty good amount of frustration and some times anger at the college industry.

 

Things that frustrate me include:

 

The attitude that I as a "good and responsible" parent am obligated to fork over tens of thousands of dollars for my kids' education, BUT parents are then told that they are hovering if they want to know about grades, want to be informed of life threatening mental health issues, or want to know if their child was assaulted on campus. In fact there seems to be a strong preference toward separating a college student from the beliefs and views that his family holds in order to help him be more "enlightened" while at the same time, cleaving close to the parents' purse for the funding to do all this self-investigation.

 

Colleges can't seem to commit to providing enough sections of courses so that students who are willing to put in the effort are able to graduate within four years.

 

Colleges seem to not even understand the outrage about things like S3x Week, public demonstrations of b0ndage in class or presentations, speaking engagements or positions held by admitted terrorists, campaigns to celebrate men who murdered police officers, denegration of conservative or Christian views on campus, or a general enculturation of the idea that college students ought to be a semi-professional protesting class.

 

Inflation of tuition amounts that are well above the general inflation rates in the country (and defintely seem out of whack when there is so much unemployment).

 

A system of competition that seems to reward students more for having interesting stories than for being nose to the grindstone students. A system of financing college that seems to penalize thrift and personal responsibility and reward families who went into more debt than was prudent.

 

In general, when I am considering college I get hit with a feeling that we'll be paying through the nose for a degree that won't represent the excellence it once did, may represent an institution that will actively work to impress on our children that our family's values are wrong and will exhibit a certain arrogance about the whole process. When I read articles about many colleges, I feel patronized, ridiculed and despised as anything other than a purse that should sit down and keep quiet while they reform the leaders of tomorrow.

 

DH and I each have 4 year and graduate degrees. We worked our butts off to get them and to pay for them without going into debt for anything but our servitude to the military.

 

I don't expect that my kids will end up going to a decidedly Christian school. But I do feel free to tell them that I won't be interested in sending scores of thousands of dollars to institutions that seem to despise the values that earned that money. We intend to be very aware buyers who are selective about institutions and degree programs.

 

:hurray::hurray::hurray: Wild Applause.

[LauraGB]

I agree with most of what you said (ok, probably all of it).

 

I also have a pretty good amount of frustration and some times anger at the college industry.

 

Things that frustrate me include:

 

The attitude that I as a "good and responsible" parent am obligated to fork over tens of thousands of dollars for my kids' education, BUT parents are then told that they are hovering if they want to know about grades, want to be informed of life threatening mental health issues, or want to know if their child was assaulted on campus. In fact there seems to be a strong preference toward separating a college student from the beliefs and views that his family holds in order to help him be more "enlightened" while at the same time, cleaving close to the parents' purse for the funding to do all this self-investigation.

 

Colleges can't seem to commit to providing enough sections of courses so that students who are willing to put in the effort are able to graduate within four years.

 

Colleges seem to not even understand the outrage about things like S3x Week, public demonstrations of b0ndage in class or presentations, speaking engagements or positions held by admitted terrorists, campaigns to celebrate men who murdered police officers, denegration of conservative or Christian views on campus, or a general enculturation of the idea that college students ought to be a semi-professional protesting class.

 

Inflation of tuition amounts that are well above the general inflation rates in the country (and defintely seem out of whack when there is so much unemployment).

 

A system of competition that seems to reward students more for having interesting stories than for being nose to the grindstone students. A system of financing college that seems to penalize thrift and personal responsibility and reward families who went into more debt than was prudent.

 

In general, when I am considering college I get hit with a feeling that we'll be paying through the nose for a degree that won't represent the excellence it once did, may represent an institution that will actively work to impress on our children that our family's values are wrong and will exhibit a certain arrogance about the whole process. When I read articles about many colleges, I feel patronized, ridiculed and despised as anything other than a purse that should sit down and keep quiet while they reform the leaders of tomorrow.

 

DH and I each have 4 year and graduate degrees. We worked our butts off to get them and to pay for them without going into debt for anything but our servitude to the military.

 

I don't expect that my kids will end up going to a decidedly Christian school. But I do feel free to tell them that I won't be interested in sending scores of thousands of dollars to institutions that seem to despise the values that earned that money. We intend to be very aware buyers who are selective about institutions and degree programs.

 

:iagree: Completely.

[Night Elf]

I am just meanopausal and angry as hell at my clients many days. It is not anti intellectualism I am just hot, tired and in need of a housekeeper, chef, organizer, bookkeeper and instructor for dd. Crap, I need a wife!!! :lol:

 

So you would be looking for someone with an M.R.S. degree, right? :tongue_smilie:

[leeannpal]

If I were to bet those are exceptions that are rare, especially in todays economy.

 

My sister's undergraduate degree was in philosophy. She took the MCAT, applied to several medical schools and got offers from more than one. She is a pathologist today.

[Aggie]

My sister's undergraduate degree was in philosophy. She took the MCAT, applied to several medical schools and got offers from more than one. She is a pathologist today.

 

I'm sure it wasn't JUST her major that got her into med school. She surely had other things going for her.:001_smile:

 

One of our dds is planning on going to dental school. I will encourage her to major in something she'll be able to use just in case dental school doesn't work out.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

It's not that they are hovering, it's that they are asking for information that it is illegal to give out. It's that an 18 year old is a legal adult, and so legal rights they didn't have before kick in. It's not just parents you can't discuss grades with. I cannot discuss my students' grades with ANYBODY without written permission.

 

If the lines of communication you have with your child shut down to the point where he or she won't talk about grades or mental health issue or assaults, then that's a serious problem in the parent-child relationship. I would not blame the school for that.

 

Then there should also be a presumption that this legal adult's parents are not on the dime to cover college tuition. That if the parents check a box indicating that they are not paying, the colleges will not factor parental income or assets into the student's ability to pay.

 

Otherwise, it seems like the college wants to have it both ways. Independent adult for medical and grades, but dependent when it comes to payment for the college classes.

 

And yes, I did pay for my own college degrees.

[Plucky]

Then there should also be a presumption that this legal adult's parents are not on the dime to cover college tuition. That if the parents check a box indicating that they are not paying, the colleges will not factor parental income or assets into the student's ability to pay.

 

Otherwise, it seems like the college wants to have it both ways. Independent adult for medical and grades, but dependent when it comes to payment for the college classes.

 

And yes, I did pay for my own college degrees.

 

This is a very good point!

[FaithManor]

Then there should also be a presumption that this legal adult's parents are not on the dime to cover college tuition. That if the parents check a box indicating that they are not paying, the colleges will not factor parental income or assets into the student's ability to pay.

 

Otherwise, it seems like the college wants to have it both ways. Independent adult for medical and grades, but dependent when it comes to payment for the college classes.

 

And yes, I did pay for my own college degrees.

 

Very, very true! I will tell you how my parents got around this back in the day...(you know, the mists of time that is known as a long time ago in galaxy far, far away, Faith wasn't always a homeschooling mom! LOL)

 

If I wanted financial assistance and if I wanted them to fill out FASFA forms, then I had to sign a waiver with the college of my choice that allowed my grades to be sent home and allowed them to be given medical information. My parents told my LAC that they would not pay one red cent on ANYTHING unless they had a say. I don't blame them. Though I didn't need that motivation in order to do well in classes, my brother did. He would have goofed off and failed a couple of classes on my parents' bucks if he knew they would not find out. Otherwise, I do agree with Sebastian that parental income should not be a consideration.

 

This was moot for us with dd as she is a commuter which has been a financial blessing. It hasn't been easy as the university is a one hr. drive and the paramedic program is 50 minutes. away and not in the same city. But, despite the gas costs, it has saved us a boat load.

 

Faith

[asta]

JMO

 

I think one of the biggest problems with all of the articles I've read and all of the posts on this board (barring, say, medschool student and a couple of others who are actually currently in college) is...

 

The people discussing the issue all start the discussion with "well, when I was in college" (15, 20, 30 years ago)...

 

Guess what? That is no longer relevant information! Just as one example, the internet wasn't ANYWHERE 30 years ago! (ok, it was running between a couple of unis, but that doesn't count...)

 

We can't BEGIN to place OUR experiences of what collegiate life/co op & intern opportunities/availability of monies SHOULD be on today's students - it simply isn't the same.

 

Of course there have always been the "wild" dorms, the idiots who spent their student loans on ski vacations and the trust fund babies -- but they have NEVER been the norm - [wait - post industrial revolution, it pretty much was only trust fund babies going to uni in the US, but that isn't what we're talking about...]. The difference "today", and this is why the sh!t is hitting the fan and we're suddenly seeing all of these news articles (IMO), is that, with the "everyone must go to college" movement, everything has been MAGNIFIED and MULTIPLIED.

 

There is no longer "the wild dorm". There is the "co-ed within a room" wild dorm.

 

There is not the "idiot who went to Vail once". There is the guy who has $150,000 in loans who seems to ski all of the time (what was his major again?).

 

There is still the trust fund baby. But now there is a HUGE swath of America who has been completely, utterly wiped out financially because they thought things (home values, stocks, salaries) would always go "up" and suddenly they didn't. And that huge swath, who may or may not have had had designs on climbing up a peg or two on the social ladder... is p!ssed.

 

Or dead. Check the stats on middle/upper age white male suicides that came out last week. They're pretty dismal.

 

The news aggregators are "making" this about higher ed, but that isn't what it is really about. It's really about dreams. And the loss of them. And a whole bunch of people who probably should have critically read the Great Gatsby instead of blowing through it as a "oh yeah, I have to read this for high school English class" book.

 

I'm rambling. I should stop.

 

 

asta

[Jennifer3141]

 

The news aggregators are "making" this about higher ed, but that isn't what it is really about. It's really about dreams. And the loss of them. And a whole bunch of people who probably should have critically read the Great Gatsby instead of blowing through it as a "oh yeah, I have to read this for high school English class" book.

 

I'm rambling. I should stop.

 

 

asta

 

Ramble away, Asta. I love the way you think!!! And now I need to reread the Great Gatsby.

[Night Elf]

It's not that they are hovering, it's that they are asking for information that it is illegal to give out. It's that an 18 year old is a legal adult, and so legal rights they didn't have before kick in.

 

I do understand this point. What I don't understand is why I have to give my financial information to the financial aid people so that this young adult, who by law is an adult and therefore should be legally and financially responsible for him/herself, can get money to fund his/her college. If they want to treat these young adults as adults, they shouldn't require their parents to finance any part of the education process unless the parents offer.

 

Being dependent means not being responsible for yourself financially. Why can a young adult be dependent financially on parents but not dependent in any other fashion? My children shouldn't need special considerations to be considered independent. If my child moves out and is supporting him/herself, why on earth would the Dept. of Education insist I am still financially responsible for this young adult? Dd19 files her own taxes. She is no longer a dependent on our taxes, yet we are still considered financially responsible for her? What is up with that?

 

From the Student Loan Network website: "The US Department of Education considers a student a dependent up until the age of 24 except in certain circumstances."

[LibraryLover]

Well that's cute for little kids, :001_wub: but at 16, 17 and 18 when society is demanding careers and college majors be chosen, it still seems to be that grammar stage style thinking making the decisions. Well, maybe not your dentist example :lol: People want to go into computer programming because they like computer games, not because they like coding.

 

 

Rosie

 

 

:) I was actually meaning to write it's sad when older kids think that way...was it late when I wrote that?...and cute when little kids do. But also sad that the dino-lovers seem to give up the love at some point...blather blather. Coffee, please. :tongue_smilie:

[cathmom]

JMO

 

I think one of the biggest problems with all of the articles I've read and all of the posts on this board (barring, say, medschool student and a couple of others who are actually currently in college) is...

 

The people discussing the issue all start the discussion with "well, when I was in college" (15, 20, 30 years ago)...

 

We can't BEGIN to place OUR experiences of what collegiate life/co op & intern opportunities/availability of monies SHOULD be on today's students - it simply isn't the same.

 

I totally agree! I only graduated not even 20 years ago, and college is no longer the same. It's PHENOMENALLY expensive is the main difference.

 

 

 

 

 

Or dead. Check the stats on middle/upper age white male suicides that came out last week. They're pretty dismal.

 

 

 

 

asta

 

Do you have a link for this? So sad!

[FaithManor]

JMO

 

I think one of the biggest problems with all of the articles I've read and all of the posts on this board (barring, say, medschool student and a couple of others who are actually currently in college) is...

 

The people discussing the issue all start the discussion with "well, when I was in college" (15, 20, 30 years ago)...

 

Guess what? That is no longer relevant information! Just as one example, the internet wasn't ANYWHERE 30 years ago! (ok, it was running between a couple of unis, but that doesn't count...)

 

We can't BEGIN to place OUR experiences of what collegiate life/co op & intern opportunities/availability of monies SHOULD be on today's students - it simply isn't the same.

 

Of course there have always been the "wild" dorms, the idiots who spent their student loans on ski vacations and the trust fund babies -- but they have NEVER been the norm - [wait - post industrial revolution, it pretty much was only trust fund babies going to uni in the US, but that isn't what we're talking about...]. The difference "today", and this is why the sh!t is hitting the fan and we're suddenly seeing all of these news articles (IMO), is that, with the "everyone must go to college" movement, everything has been MAGNIFIED and MULTIPLIED.

 

There is no longer "the wild dorm". There is the "co-ed within a room" wild dorm.

 

There is not the "idiot who went to Vail once". There is the guy who has $150,000 in loans who seems to ski all of the time (what was his major again?).

 

There is still the trust fund baby. But now there is a HUGE swath of America who has been completely, utterly wiped out financially because they thought things (home values, stocks, salaries) would always go "up" and suddenly they didn't. And that huge swath, who may or may not have had had designs on climbing up a peg or two on the social ladder... is p!ssed.

 

Or dead. Check the stats on middle/upper age white male suicides that came out last week. They're pretty dismal.

 

The news aggregators are "making" this about higher ed, but that isn't what it is really about. It's really about dreams. And the loss of them. And a whole bunch of people who probably should have critically read the Great Gatsby instead of blowing through it as a "oh yeah, I have to read this for high school English class" book.

 

I'm rambling. I should stop.

 

 

asta

 

Very astute.

 

The job market, the college market, the trades market, you name it....it is a whole new ball-game and everyone has to adjust.

 

Asta is right that this is where much of the angst is coming from.

[LibraryLover]

I totally agree! I only graduated not even 20 years ago, and college is no longer the same. It's PHENOMENALLY expensive is the main difference.

 

 

QUOTE]

 

 

Yes.

Edited July 2, 2011 by LibraryLover
TMI

[asta]

Do you have a link for this? So sad!

 

This is a generalization that discusses the issue but mentions that it does not include the recent recession/depression.

 

This, unfortunately, is hard data that can be extrapolated to the above article.

 

Yes, very sad.

 

 

a

[asta]

Very astute.

 

The job market, the college market, the trades market, you name it....it is a whole new ball-game and everyone has to adjust.

 

Asta is right that this is where much of the angst is coming from.

 

Why, thank you!

 

That is what a Social and Behavioral Sciences degree in Economics (BS) will do for ya!

 

(and they told me I'd never use it...)

[JudyJudyJudy]

I do understand this point. What I don't understand is why I have to give my financial information to the financial aid people so that this young adult, who by law is an adult and therefore should be legally and financially responsible for him/herself, can get money to fund his/her college.

You don't legally have to do this. If your child is living completely on his own, living in his own home, completely supporting himself, not on your health insurance, etc., he can file as independent.

[stripe]

JMO

 

I think one of the biggest problems with all of the articles I've read and all of the posts on this board (barring, say, medschool student and a couple of others who are actually currently in college) is...

 

The people discussing the issue all start the discussion with "well, when I was in college" (15, 20, 30 years ago)...

 

Guess what? That is no longer relevant information! Just as one example, the internet wasn't ANYWHERE 30 years ago! (ok, it was running between a couple of unis, but that doesn't count...)

....

 

The news aggregators are "making" this about higher ed, but that isn't what it is really about. It's really about dreams. And the loss of them.

 

That's just it, asta. I hardly know anyone with a good job. I am shocked, given what I see, to read posts saying, well you picked the wrong major. I know unemployed and underemployed people from many backgrounds, and many with graduate degrees and years of experience. I was just listening last night to something that mentioned that those who've been unemployed never recover psychologically. Even after they get a job. It shakes them and their beliefs in security to the core.

[LibraryLover]

Some info on filing as an independent student. It's not what it once was.

 

Dependent vs. Independent

In the federal government’s eyes, all students are considered primarily responsible for funding their higher education. But the government also recognizes that most parents contribute financially on some level. Parents provide assistance whether they’ve been saving for years to fund their child’s degree or simply provide housing while their children study.

Taking this into account, the federal government applies two different standards for students, one for dependent students and one for independent students. Dependent students are assumed to have parental support while independent students are not. The result: Independent students might qualify for more aid.

Being considered an independent student is not merely a matter of being responsible for your own educational expenses. You must meet at least one of the following seven criteria to be declared an independent student for the purposes of the FAFSA:

 

• Be 24 years of age or older by December 31 of the award year;
  
• Be an orphan (both parents deceased), ward of the court, or was a ward of the court until the age of 18;
  
• Be a veteran of the Armed Forces of the United States;
  
• Be a graduate or professional student;
  
• Be a married individual;
  
• Have legal dependents other than a spouse;
  
• Be a student for whom a financial aid administrator makes a documented determination of independence by reason of other unusual circumstances.
  

Changing Your Status

Dependent students may change their status, but it’s not easy. You start by filing a Dependency Review Form; request one from your school. You also must provide documentation explaining your situation. Your case is then reviewed by a committee or financial aid office at your college.

Keep in mind that most students will not qualify for a change in status. Circumstances tend to be extreme (such as abandonment or physical abuse) to warrant the change. Simply residing in your own apartment or house is not adequate justification.

[Plucky]

Some info on filing as an independent student. It's not what it once was.

 

Dependent vs. Independent

In the federal government’s eyes, all students are considered primarily responsible for funding their higher education. But the government also recognizes that most parents contribute financially on some level. Parents provide assistance whether they’ve been saving for years to fund their child’s degree or simply provide housing while their children study.

Taking this into account, the federal government applies two different standards for students, one for dependent students and one for independent students. Dependent students are assumed to have parental support while independent students are not. The result: Independent students might qualify for more aid.

Being considered an independent student is not merely a matter of being responsible for your own educational expenses. You must meet at least one of the following seven criteria to be declared an independent student for the purposes of the FAFSA:

 

• Be 24 years of age or older by December 31 of the award year;

• Be an orphan (both parents deceased), ward of the court, or was a ward of the court until the age of 18;

• Be a veteran of the Armed Forces of the United States;

• Be a graduate or professional student;

• Be a married individual;

• Have legal dependents other than a spouse;

• Be a student for whom a financial aid administrator makes a documented determination of independence by reason of other unusual circumstances.

Changing Your Status

Dependent students may change their status, but it’s not easy. You start by filing a Dependency Review Form; request one from your school. You also must provide documentation explaining your situation. Your case is then reviewed by a committee or financial aid office at your college.

Keep in mind that most students will not qualify for a change in status. Circumstances tend to be extreme (such as abandonment or physical abuse) to warrant the change. Simply residing in your own apartment or house is not adequate justification.

 

Looks like the easiest thing to do is get married. :tongue_smilie:

[LibraryLover]

Looks like the easiest thing to do is get married. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

lol I am not anti waiting until one is 24 to go to college. ;) Just don't manage to get a well -paying job in the meanwhile.

[JudyJudyJudy]

lol I am not anti waiting until one is 24 to go to college. ;) Just don't manage to get a well -paying job in the meanwhile.

Not too good, or you won't qualify for financial aid! LOL

 

I do know a girl who filed as independent and actually qualified for less than she did when she filed as a dependent.

[FaithManor]

The changing status thing is absolutely true! My nephew lived away from home at 21, had an apartment he shared with two other guys, and had nary an expense paid for by his parents. Literally, not one thing.

 

He could not change his status and here is why: He paid his mom for car insurance because staying on her policy was cheaper than getting his own. He even provided proof (cashed checks sent directly to the insurance company for his portion of the quarterly premium) and NOTHING! The financial aid supervisor would not give him independent status. So, he had his mom drop him from the policy and took out his own. He went back to said financial aid department with proof of his own policy and they still refused to change his status. When he inquired as to why the response was, "It is not in our best interests financially to allow undergrad students to be independent."

 

My niece could not get college financial aid help though she has lived away from home since she was 16. She was completely estranged from her my brother (her adoptive father) and her mother for three years. She had not heard from her biological father in nine years. Yet, no independent status for her.

 

Faith

[Plucky]

lol I am not anti waiting until one is 24 to go to college. ;) Just don't manage to get a well -paying job in the meanwhile.

 

Maybe we can arrange some platonic marriages. Seriously, if the kids are supposed to be adults in all areas except financial then they aren't really adults. This university logic irks me.

[Plucky]

The changing status thing is absolutely true! My nephew lived away from home at 21, had an apartment he shared with two other guys, and had nary an expense paid for by his parents. Literally, not one thing.

 

He could not change his status and here is why: He paid his mom for car insurance because staying on her policy was cheaper than getting his own. He even provided proof (cashed checks sent directly to the insurance company for his portion of the quarterly premium) and NOTHING! The financial aid supervisor would not give him independent status. So, he had his mom drop him from the policy and took out his own. He went back to said financial aid department with proof of his own policy and they still refused to change his status. When he inquired as to why the response was, "It is not in our best interests financially to allow undergrad students to be independent."

 

My niece could not get college financial aid help though she has lived away from home since she was 16. She was completely estranged from her my brother (her adoptive father) and her mother for three years. She had not heard from her biological father in nine years. Yet, no independent status for her.

 

Faith

 

That is so wrong!

[Night Elf]

Certain classes are hard to come by and only offered at certain times. I understand, but it ticked me off.

 

You and me both! When I finished spring semester last May, I was told the next set of my courses would be offered in Spring 2012. That means that technically I'm out of school until January. I do have 2 classes I can take that aren't part of any blocks but it would be expensive to take just those 2 classes in the fall. So therefore, I really don't want to go back until my courses are offered again.

 

Oh, and two of the classes I need are so hard to get into that all of the advisors are suggesting we take them at another college as transient students. So I can't even get all the classes I need at the university that will be awarding my degree. :confused: This is a 4-year state university that says it is Georgia's 3rd largest university.

[FaithManor]

Maybe we can arrange some platonic marriages. Seriously, if the kids are supposed to be adults in all areas except financial then they aren't really adults. This university logic irks me.

 

Well, it might work! :D But, don't you think the universities will hire retired immigration officials to come and drill our kids on face creams, shampoo, favorite tampons, and the location of birth marks and secret moles in order to ferret out those that marry only for the "independent card"! :lol:

 

You know...like the Sandra Bullock movie, "The Proposal"! I can just see the college financial aid officer saying, "Oh...so you got married, eh??? Well, I want proof of consumation!":biggrinjester:

 

OH wait, even back in the mists of time, my college's director of financial aid was WICKED! I'm pretty certain she would have set up illegal wire-taps and video cameras in the young couple's appartment just to prove it was a fraud and would have been screaming "I WAS RIGHT" all the way to jail.

 

As for university logic, it's gone the way of the do-do bird...just like politician logic!

 

Faith

[Plucky]

Well, it might work! :D But, don't you think the universities will hire retired immigration officials to come and drill our kids on face creams, shampoo, favorite tampons, and the location of birth marks and secret moles in order to ferret out those that marry only for the "independent card"! :lol:

 

You know...like the Sandra Bullock movie, "The Proposal"! I can just see the college financial aid officer saying, "Oh...so you got married, eh??? Well, I want proof of consumation!":biggrinjester:

 

OH wait, even back in the mists of time, my college's director of financial aid was WICKED! I'm pretty certain she would have set up illegal wire-taps and video cameras in the young couple's appartment just to prove it was a fraud and would have been screaming "I WAS RIGHT" all the way to jail.

 

As for university logic, it's gone the way of the do-do bird...just like politician logic!

 

Faith

 

I agree. I so want my kids to go to college. I am pro-college, but the costs and the tuition hikes are ridiculous. University of Washington just had a tuition hike of 22% - and some of that is money that will go towards scholarships. So some kids will be going into debt to help subsidize other kids' educations. It's just not right.

[creekland]

Looks like the easiest thing to do is get married. :tongue_smilie:

 

Occasionally we toy with this idea over on the high school board. ;)

[Night Elf]

You don't legally have to do this. If your child is living completely on his own, living in his own home, completely supporting himself, not on your health insurance, etc., he can file as independent.

 

Oops, I just posted everything LibraryLover posted that defines an independent status. Federal guidelines do not make it easy to declare independency.

[Plucky]

Occasionally we toy with this idea over on the high school board. ;)

 

:lol::lol::lol: I'll require a mandatory implanted birth control please, just in case. ;)

[creekland]

JMO

 

I think one of the biggest problems with all of the articles I've read and all of the posts on this board (barring, say, medschool student and a couple of others who are actually currently in college) is...

 

The people discussing the issue all start the discussion with "well, when I was in college" (15, 20, 30 years ago)...

 

asta

 

For anyone on the General Board here who wants up to date info, several of us on the high school and college board have kids in college now and/or searching for colleges, doing the paperwork, and finding out the results. ;)

 

I know I consider my info up to date for the colleges we've been looking at and have experience with. It doesn't mean it won't change for those down the road though.

[Plucky]

For anyone on the General Board here who wants up to date info, several of us on the high school and college board have kids in college now and/or searching for colleges, doing the paperwork, and finding out the results. ;)

 

I know I consider my info up to date for the colleges we've been looking at and have experience with. It doesn't mean it won't change for those down the road though.

 

Things change from year-to-year, too. I know that some universities are requiring more testing and documentation of homeschoolers, some just aren't receptive to homeschoolers at all even though they say they are.

[kalanamak]

Well, it might work! :D But, don't you think the universities will hire retired immigration officials to come and drill our kids on face creams, shampoo, favorite tampons, and the location of birth marks and secret moles

 

 

I know a couple who got interviewed for the wife to became a USian from Canada, and she was about 2 days short of labor when she was interviewed. :lol:

[creekland]

Things change from year-to-year, too. I know that some universities are requiring more testing and documentation of homeschoolers, some just aren't receptive to homeschoolers at all even though they say they are.

 

The good thing here is most colleges are going toward less "extra" requirements of homeschoolers, not more. They all do, however, want to know that grades are substantiated by more than just a family member. ACT/SAT scores tend not to be optional for 4 year schools - even if they are "score optional" schools for ps students.

 

I'm very thankful to all the homeschoolers who have produced such awesome college students ahead of us, and in doing so, paved the way for those of us with students applying now. In general, those who came before us had to "prove" their ability much more than we have to now.

[twoforjoy]

I do understand this point. What I don't understand is why I have to give my financial information to the financial aid people so that this young adult, who by law is an adult and therefore should be legally and financially responsible for him/herself, can get money to fund his/her college. If they want to treat these young adults as adults, they shouldn't require their parents to finance any part of the education process unless the parents offer.

 

I completely agree with this. I think it's wrong that parental income must be considered in giving out financial aid for people over 18. Parents shouldn't have to foot the bill for college if they don't want to, no matter how much money they have.

 

But, I think we should totally overhaul how college is paid for, anyway, and have a system that is much more publicly funded, like they do in much of the world.

[Momof3littles]

I have not read through the entire thread yet, but I'll chime in.

 

I have an advanced degree that I am not using (by choice, as I'm choosing to SAH and HS). I am still paying off student loans (although mine are not astronomical, thankfully).

 

My DH has an doctoral degree in the sciences.

 

We both entertain the notion regularly that our children may be better off *financially* choosing a trade. That doesn't mean that I don't think college is worthwhile, or that I won't prepare my children for a rigorous college experience. But from a purely financial standpoint, they may do better in a trade than in many degreed professions.

 

However, with the current climate with respect to unions, even trades may not be as appealing from a financial standpoint in the future. On the up side, many trades can't be easily outsourced.

 

I have many friends w/ advanced degrees who feel trapped by their student loans. They would like to SAH, or reduce to part-time work, or switch professions, but they can't because their student loans are an enormous financial burden.