Why is there a general anti-college attitude lately?

[YLVD]

There are no guarantees in life...The best you can do in any situation is to do your research, use your head, and make the best decision you can based on knowledge...Listen to your heart but be practical as well...There is no guarantee that a college degree will get you the job you want, but you will probably be better off with it if you did your research, went to the right school and picked the right major...If you decide that you want to do something that doesn't require a college degree, again do your research and make the best decision you can and try to set yourself up to win...This is where good parenting comes in...We can't make our children do anything once they are grown, but we can offer guidance...Know how much debt you will be in before you take out loan after loan...Know what your earning potential will be when you are done whatever it is you choose to do, whether college, grade school, travel, etc...Make decisions based on knowledge, and stop treating college like 13th grade, where you just go from class to class with no real plan or idea what is really going on...Unfortunately though, at the end of the day, there are no guanrantees...

 

Wow, I think that was my first rant :tongue_smilie:

 

It was a good rant! I agree!~ :iagree:

[YLVD]

Night Elf, I would not consider spending 30k on a decent degree to be unrealistic. I even think financing some or all of that with student loans could be an excellent investment, depending on the student, their course of study/future plans.

 

Were talking about earning potential over a lifetime. What one makes the first few years is not necessarily representative of future earnings.

 

:iagree:

 

IMO, an investment in yourself, which is your education, is far more valuable than investment in property, etc. It is you!

[YLVD]

Is this a regional thing? I would be interested in seeing stats for this. It is not the case for my area at all. Trade experience gets the job in my neck of the woods.

 

Here in the over-educated Pacific Northwest, the bachelor's degree is necessary for even basic entry level positions. But, that is also because it's saturated with people with loads of degrees, lol. That's probably why I am so pro college education. My DD would have a hard time getting a position to answer phones at most places around here, without that piece of paper.

[JenC3]

:iagree:

 

I haven't become entirely anti-college and I am certainly not anti-intellectual, but you can bet your Sweet Bippy that I am wary.

 

My boys are still getting an Ivy-prep education at home, but I don't intend to talk them into going to college at this point. They should go if it really does further their personal goals. They should not go for status or imaginary advantage. Not when we've learned that the so-called educational opportunities offered are now so lacking and the prospective ability to pay back these over-inflated loans is no longer just not guaranteed but truly unlikely.

 

At the end of their homeschooling experience they will be better educated than the majority of their countrymen, and well-educated enough to please

me.

:iagree:

This is coming from somene whose dh just finished his PhD. Everyone in my husband's family degreed and most have advanced degrees, many PhD's. We are lucky that right now his education is actually financially rewarding, but we know this could change.

[kalanamak]

 

I will never understand anti-education and anti-intellectualism. I believe that anti-intellectualism is rampant in the US, especially in some parts of the United States.

 

 

I recall two situations:

In NYC, I worked shoveling bagels and coffee in a shop in the Village. There was a laundromat next door owned and maintained by Chiam, a 70+ man from Russia. One day the soda pop delivery guys, rather typical Joey Butafoco types were braying away about some garbage as they unloaded. Chiam turned to me and said quitely: we had ignorant people in Russia, but they weren't so proud of it.

 

Back in Kansas, I took a class at the Vo-Tec, and most of my peers were farmer's sons learning a trade to do in the winter when the farming was slow. The teacher, a nice but classic Good Old Boy told a joke that always got a laugh: Three men were sitting in a tavern having a beer during the heat of the day. One said he was a doctor, married, made 100,000 a year, and he was going to send all his sons to KU so they could be doctors, too. The next said he was a lawyer, married, made 100,000, and he was going to send his sons to KU so they could be lawyers, too. The third said he was a farmer, but had never married, and some years he made 100,000 and some years he lost 100,000, and he was going to send all his sons to KU so they could go be with "all the other b*stards".

 

NB: since this was 30 years ago, 100K was an outrageous salary most physicians and attorneys in Kansas, but it was honestly perceived as what they would earn.

[YLVD]

I recall two situations:

In NYC, I worked shoveling bagels and coffee in a shop in the Village. There was a laundromat next door owned and maintained by Chiam, a 70+ man from Russia. One day the soda pop delivery guys, rather typical Joey Butafoco types were braying away about some garbage as they unloaded. Chiam turned to me and said quitely: we had ignorant people in Russia, but they weren't so proud of it.

 

Back in Kansas, I took a class at the Vo-Tec, and most of my peers were farmer's sons learning a trade to do in the winter when the farming was slow. The teacher, a nice but classic Good Old Boy told a joke that always got a laugh: Three men were sitting in a tavern having a beer during the heat of the day. One said he was a doctor, married, made 100,000 a year, and he was going to send all his sons to KU so they could be doctors, too. The next said he was a lawyer, married, made 100,000, and he was going to send his sons to KU so they could be lawyers, too. The third said he was a farmer, but had never married, and some years he made 100,000 and some years he lost 100,000, and he was going to send all his sons to KU so they could go be with "all the other b*stards".

 

NB: since this was 30 years ago, 100K was an outrageous salary most physicians and attorneys in Kansas, but it was honestly perceived as what they would earn.

 

I love this!!:001_smile:

[LibraryLover]

I think it is an interesting thing to shoot for (preposition usage (by me) questions not withstanding). No arguments there.

 

 

Not really. If one makes between 60-180K the total family contribution is graduated, but promised to be no more than 10% of income (less if more than one offspring is in college). Again, no loans.

 

The only reason we might consider one of these schools is due to that. If our economy picks back up to being more than 60K, we won't totally be out the increase due to the cost of school. If it picks up to more than 180K (highly doubtful), I don't mind funding school for a few years.

 

The financing of it all makes it appealing to try for since the kiddo has the stats. He doesn't have the "wow" application more wealthy students will have - he hasn't started his own non-profit nor been able to do published research in our rural area, so he might end up one of the 93% not admitted, but we might try. Emphasis on might. We haven't visited the place yet and kiddo has a different first choice school at the moment that he has visited.

 

I doubt we're the only ones intrigued by some Ivy (not all) financial facts. It could be partially why their acceptance rates are getting lower. A larger pool is a win-win for them. They can be more selective (not that they weren't already!). They can get their financial make up however they want it. Lots of diversity opportunities.

Edited July 2, 2011 by LibraryLover

[DawnM]

And I got my undergrad in Seattle! :D

 

Here in the over-educated Pacific Northwest, the bachelor's degree is necessary for even basic entry level positions. But, that is also because it's saturated with people with loads of degrees, lol. That's probably why I am so pro college education. My DD would have a hard time getting a position to answer phones at most places around here, without that piece of paper.

[zaichiki]

I can't think of any undergrad major where that would be true, and excellent graduate research facilities exist in hundreds of schools across the US. Being excellent at what one does and having a passion for it matters most. What major are you thinking about?

 

There are over 3000 colleges in the US. Finding the right fit is important and possible.

 

Because I don't know yet what my kids will end up doing, and I don't know if they'll decide to go after a master's degree, this is somewhat up in the air. However, my oldest is interested in researching more about a bachelor's degree in paleontology with an emphasis in bird evolution (or aerospace engineering/design which is more common and therefore I'm not considering that here) -- and wants a particular type of experience in his field (looking for certain types of professors, research, and field work). Dd is interested in viola performance, but of course she is very young, so who knows where that will go. She will choose a university based on who the viola prof is and she will have to audition/take a sample lesson from the candidates first.

 

Anyway... there are other majors out there with similar issues. If a certain type of professor or department within the university is what your're looking for, it certainly narrows down your choices. You might not be realistically able to choose a cheaper state school and get the kind of education you want.

[Dirtroad]

:iagree:

 

 

 

Stephanie, have you no knowledge of apprenticeships, trade schools or out-of-the-box entrepreneurialism?

 

Your paradigm is shockingly simple. It isn't a matter of degrees and wealth OR $10/hr drudgery. I have a friend who is a plumber. He is building a new house, debt-free. I have a friend who is a chemical engineer and a holder of three degrees. He is driving a truck right now...and it took him two years to get that job. His wife delivers newspapers and sells garden produce.

 

Also, your ignorance of the thought processes of "poorer folks" is appalling. Of course we understand the "relative smallness" of loans of $5-10K/yr! That doesn't mean we can afford them! You can't get blood from a stone.

 

My wariness of college stems from new information made available in the past year proving that many schools are not teaching the young people properly. I am so tired of hearing about classically homeschooled children who go into debt for thousands of dollars just for the privilege of attending college classes in which they make posters about children's books. I am disgusted by reports of binge drinking and rampant cheating on campuses. This does not sound "intellectual" to me!

 

I'd rather have a self-educated son who is a self-made man than an impoverished, debt-riddled son who learned all manner of complacency, apathy, and immorality at an expensive college institution and yet still faces no job opportunities. (Edited to add: This is probably also be a false paradigm. However, I have personally seen more instances of these extremes than the opposite. Perhaps because I live in a mostly blue-collar town...)

 

That is not anti-intellectual. Farmers of America's past were better-read than lawyers of today. What is education? And what is success? These are the questions we all must answer for our own families.

 

Wow... that is beautiful!

 

I think you help your child chose the path that fits them. I have 2 brothers.... 1 couldn't sit still in school and was NOT college material. He could have been forced but he just rolled up his sleeves and went to work. Other brother was a bit mroe bookish and wasn't very competitive. He went to school in a business field. First brother owns his own business and is doing very well. Owns 2 homes, races cars, and lives on cash most often. Youngest brother managed a small store and is now unemployed. He is in debt and miserable.

 

Hubby has a sister who went to tech school & cuts hair (& more of course). DH is an engineer. His sister owns her own business, barters for some tings b/c of a skill that she can share/trade.... and makes WAY, WAY more money that DH.

 

So, in our family.... the active, eager, energy driven siblings have blown the lid off the college degree siblings who are groveling at the table for the scraps of some boss or corporation.

 

Written by someone with 2 BS degrees and 1 Master's degree. All of whom would not yeild me ONE Job today. (sadly)

[QueenieReighn]

I have not read the replies to this post, but as someone very close to the college community, I'd say it's because of many things. The cost of going to college is rising at a ridiculous rate. If you haven't been paying attention, you should really check out the numbers because they are horrifying. Also, many colleges are caring less and less about their students. They are more of a number than a person and all they care about usually is that they are getting paid and they seem to do anything to get more money from you. I know of one university that started stamping the year on the books they were selling and telling students that they had to have the right stamp on their book for class (they couldn't buy used books)...though I think they ended up getting in trouble for this. There have been many cases in courts about banks and colleges having deals together where the college will try to trick students into a not-so-great loans with the bank and get a payoff. Many colleges have ended up having to send students a check for tricking them this way. Also, the level of teaching in many classes has greatly decreased so that many courses do not reach the depth that the students that want to have college level courses would desire until much higher up. And, of course, all the classes that are high school level are required so that if you want to go deeper, you have to waste a few years and tons of money to be allowed to take them. Also, many classes that are higher up are very hard to get into because the college only offers one class for one semester each year so everyone that needs that class is trying to get into it, which has caused many students that I know to have to stay at college an extra year (even more money spent). And then there is the fact that the majority of students are just going to college because that is what they are supposed to do so they don't care and mess around, not doing homework or projects, and yet they still pass usually. Since so many students are doing the same, the teacher puts everything on a curve so that almost no one fails. The kids that are working their butts off are shaking their heads realizing they worked so hard to get a 96, got an extra half a point from the curve, but are considered pretty much the same (they both passed and graduated) as the student that did nothing and got 14 extra points from the curve so that they were now passing. Also, they often have to work in a group with those students that don't do the work, so they are left trying to do everything so their grades don't suffer. Even worse, there is rampant cheating going on. I once observed a class that was taking a final (I was in the back and they didn't know I was there) where the teacher had stepped out for a phone call and one student grabbed another students test and was quickly copying answers while yet another student prevented the girl from getting her paper back. She was crying when the teacher came back in, but when the teacher asked her what was wrong, she said nothing. He was very mad when I privately filled him in, but what if I had not been there?

 

To sum up, college costs more, you get less, and you get mistreated while doing it. Obviously, this is not everyone's experience and college can still be very useful, but when so many people are getting this experience and hating it more and more often, they tell other people and soon people don't like the sound of going to college as much as doing something 'more useful' with their time. Also, sorry this is so long. I find this topic very interesting and could practically write a book about it. :-)

 

OMG! Were you at my school last year?? I experienced every single one of these things just in the last year, right down to someone cheating off someone else who didn't have the courage to say no. I filled out every single end-of-class survey with the same comment--that I wished the class had been deeper rather than so shallow. I was especially harsh on the survey for my Educational Philosophy course. We spent more time talking about methods to get kids to do their work, time-outs vs. stickers, than we did on studying the various philosophies of education! That class was SO not what the description said or what the textbook covered. I was so disappointed!

 

 

Sadly, this is becoming the norm at schools across the whole country. I've seen these same things personally at 5 different colleges, but I've heard stories of the same from many, many more places. It breaks my heart because I love higher education so much...what what we have now is simply NOT higher education for the most part.

[YLVD]

And I got my undergrad in Seattle! :D

 

Yay! :D I did too! University of Washington alum here. :)

[justamouse]

But, I sure wouldn't want to do them, and I wouldn't want my kids to either. If they *did* choose to be a farmer for a while (oh, that would be great fun, I always wanted to farm . . . but then again, I think they'd be better off farming with a degree or two in Ag Science, maybe an MBA as well), I'd want them to have the OPTION to do something else later. . . and not have to go back to school for 4 years to start over. A 4 year degree is simply an insurance policy that you can relatively easily change course later in life. . . You might want/need a grad degree, but you have a jump start by having that 4 year degree to start with.

 

Wow. Just...wow.

 

Organic farmers are rocking the world right now. Boys who grew up on the farm and who don't want to loose it, figuring out how to diversify crops and meet new marketing needs--all who haven't been to college.

 

Poorer folks don't understand the beauty of federal aid, nor the relative smallness of the remaining 5-10k/yr they'd need to borrow or earn to make it through. Uppermiddle class folks are squeezed by making too much for aid but not enough for 50k/yr private college costs, and resent the idea of going into 6 figure debt for one kid's college, and are overwhelmed at the idea of doing that for multiple kids. . . but are so used to giving their kids "everything" that making a compromise by going to a cheaper college seems too embarassing, so taking a "stand" encouraging their kid to opt out of college seems easier.

 

And here you're assuming the ignorance of a lot of people.

 

 

However, *I* don't want *my* kids to be at the bottom of the economy.

 

Um, you realize that your PhD can still be a bottom wage earner, right? I mean, with a PhD he can stack the favor in his odd, but that's all good Lord willing and the creek don't rise.

 

We just laid off 5 people. We may have to lay off our top chemist. Her multiple degrees aren't saving her her job. Like Amy said, you can't squeeze blood out of a stone. We may not have it to pay her. And, my Dh can do her job-he'd rather not, it's tedious and time consuming, but her degree doesn't make her expendable. And, again, it's a non chemist that will be doing her job, just one that is precise and knows how to run the machines.

 

It's fun having more money. It's fun having more freedom. It's fun having more power. That is the simple reality of capitalism (money = power = freedom). I want my kids to have it all. Options. Freedom. Influence. Power. Choices. Education helps them get those things.

 

I have no degree. My Dh has one, but so far from his feild he really considers his degree his hobby. We make a lot of $, and we're worth much, much more. We start businesses. You can get a degree for that, but there's nothing like experience.

 

Well, I could go on and on, but I figure I've given enough fodder to the anti-college crowd for now.

 

 

No one here has said they were anti college. We're saying it's a raw deal and perhaps not worth the $, which is a valid argument.

Edited July 1, 2011 by justamouse

[LibraryLover]

I think it takes a lot of research and visting to decide the right school. Fit is very important for undergrads; name profs less so. In higher tier schools, many (not all) undergrads are taught by graduate students, not the famous profs.

 

Do your research-- that is my advice. Don't get caught up in name above fit and what you can afford. My other worthless advice (because I don't write for the NYT) is to save the biggest bucks for the grad and post grad years, especially if your child isn't in science and can't get a TA position to help with costs. Grad school is more important this way, imo, if you are considering the big guns.

 

Remember: There are only 8 ;) ivies. There is good research happening well beyond this narrow corridor.

 

 

Because I don't know yet what my kids will end up doing, and I don't know if they'll decide to go after a master's degree, this is somewhat up in the air. However, my oldest is interested in researching more about a bachelor's degree in paleontology with an emphasis in bird evolution (or aerospace engineering/design which is more common and therefore I'm not considering that here) -- and wants a particular type of experience in his field (looking for certain types of professors, research, and field work). Dd is interested in viola performance, but of course she is very young, so who knows where that will go. She will choose a university based on who the viola prof is and she will have to audition/take a sample lesson from the candidates first.

 

Anyway... there are other majors out there with similar issues. If a certain type of professor or department within the university is what your're looking for, it certainly narrows down your choices. You might not be realistically able to choose a cheaper state school and get the kind of education you want.

Edited July 2, 2011 by LibraryLover
tmi

[kalanamak]

My DD would have a hard time getting a position to answer phones at most places around here, without that piece of paper.

 

I know a woman who started at Group Health years and years and years ago, and has slowly been pushed further down the chain because she has no college. The job she used to do is all LPNs, and the job after that (telephone) are all AA or BAs and now she is just above janitor. She no longer had any contact with patients at all.

[zaichiki]

I think it takes a lot of research and visting to decide the right school. Fit is very important for undergrads; name profs less so. In higher tier schools, many (not all) undergrads are taught by graduate students, not the famous profs.

 

Interestingly ds has already worked with some of the profs. I understand that they don't necessarily teach the classes. There are certain types of programs he'd prefer over others. I haven't done the research so I don't know that these would be at an Ivy, but I do know he's curious about Yale b/c it's familiar. I, of course, am not going to plan his path.

 

Do your research-- that is my advice Don't get caught up in names above fit and what you can afford. My other worthless advice (because I don't write for the NYT) is to save the biggest bucks for the grad and post grad years, if your child can't get a TA spot. Grad school is more important this way, imo, if you are considering the big guns.

 

And honestly? I don't know anyone from an Ivy who doesn't have a grad degree.

 

My kids are pretty sure about going to college, but we haven't talked much about grad school, so I'm not going to presume. I do think that both kids will *need* a grad degree if they remain serious about their interest in these certain professions.

I don't *want* my kids to go to a big-name school. I don't *want* to pay a lot of money for college (in fact we cannot). However, if a particular professor or department happens to be right up their alley and it happens to be at an Ivy or horribly-expensive-alternative, then I'm going to do whatever I can to get them there. No elitism or anti-intellectual stuff going on here.

[Jyniffrec]

There is a very good book called DIY U that gives a lot of information as to why schools are getting so expensive and degrees are worth less. One important piece of information that I took from it was that ever since U.S. News and World Reports starting rating schools it has set up an environment where schools spend tons of money on the criteria that the magazine rates them on and that the focus has shifted to less important areas than we would like such as upgrading luxury offerings and offering all the scholarships to people who are more likely to be able to pay.

 

I also read an article in Reader's Digest recently about a man who came clean about writing papers for students for thousands of dollars (depending on the urgency and importance of the paper). They weren't plagiarizing per se, but they weren't doing their own work either. The guy said that he has written theses for every kind of degree imaginable - including nurses, midwives and theology students. He made a good living. One of his points was that he didn't have to take the classes in order to get the good grades for his clients (who often couldn't even spell), he could just find information on the internet or use a template type paper and insert the specific information on the subject.

 

I have to wonder if the trend of just having kids know where to access the information rather than learn it has contributed to their willingness to pay people like the man above. I don't know if many of them would even have a moral problem with it if this is the way they have been trained.

 

I fully intend on my kids attending college, but I am going to try to be sure that we do our homework and use schools that haven't bought into the recent negative trends.

 

I hope I'm making sense. I'm sitting in a hospital room with a cranky preschooler who is yelling my name. :tongue_smilie:

[LibraryLover]

My kids are pretty sure about going to college, but we haven't talked much about grad school, so I'm not going to presume. I do think that both kids will *need* a grad degree if they remain serious about their interest in these certain professions.

 

I don't *want* my kids to go to a big-name school. I don't *want* to pay a lot of money for college (in fact we cannot). However, if a particular professor or department happens to be right up their alley and it happens to be at an Ivy or horribly-expensive-alternative, then I'm going to do whatever I can to get them there. No elitism or anti-intellectual stuff going on here.

 

 

I think you have time to figure it out and do research. If they have the creds, you/college has the money and the fit is good, you will all make it happen. :)

[zaichiki]

I think you have time to figure it out and do research.

 

And thank goodness for that!

[twoforjoy]

Grad school is more important this way, imo, if you are considering the big guns.

 

Just don't plan on going into academia. I don't know a single person who went into academia in the last 5-10 years--including people who actually landed a tenure-track job within a few years of completing their doctorate--who aren't struggling financially in a serious way.

 

My BIL who didn't go to college makes more money than my DH with his doctorate.

 

Unless you are independently wealthy, it's a horrible move. I feel like the (numerous) professors who talked me out of getting my teaching certificate in a two year grad program (which still would have gotten me in a lot of debt and probably wouldn't have guaranteed me a job--a good friend of mine has a degree and teaching cert from a very prestigious public university, is $80K in debt, is left wondering every year if her contract will be renewed, and now is being asked to take a pay cut for the second year in a row) and instead urged me on to grad studies in English lit are guilty of malpractice.

[QueenieReighn]

My kids are pretty sure about going to college, but we haven't talked much about grad school, so I'm not going to presume. I do think that both kids will *need* a grad degree if they remain serious about their interest in these certain professions.

 

I don't *want* my kids to go to a big-name school. I don't *want* to pay a lot of money for college (in fact we cannot). However, if a particular professor or department happens to be right up their alley and it happens to be at an Ivy or horribly-expensive-alternative, then I'm going to do whatever I can to get them there. No elitism or anti-intellectual stuff going on here.

 

If you are 'poor enough', you can often get extremely good grants from an Ivy school because of how many donors they have. I've seen kids shocked to learn it would be more expensive for them to go to a community college than an Ivy....but yet again, they were dirt poor.

[LibraryLover]

I agree 100%. *Unless* one cannot imagine not teaching at a certain level and/or can hande the stress of it in the early years. Some folks really want to do this and I would be hard-pressed to tell them not to do it. If nobody does it, there will be no new generation of excellent profs. What is true (job-wise) today might not be true in 5/10- 15 years. That said, my dh considered the prof track, had second thoughts, so saddled into industry. Sometimes we are jealous of the summers friends have that he does not ( my dh also publishes, so it's not that he doesn't get the stress of that). They have adjusted their lives to their incomes -- and their greater flexability. That's a good thing.

 

I suppose I wasn't backing up my science and math biases in each of my posts, although I thought I was clear about my pro stance on science TA stipends. ;)

 

I would never encourage more than minimal debt in certain areas.

 

I will leave it at that.

 

 

Just don't plan on going into academia. I don't know a single person who went into academia in the last 5-10 years--including people who actually landed a tenure-track job within a few years of completing their doctorate--who aren't struggling financially in a serious way.

 

My BIL who didn't go to college makes more money than my DH with his doctorate.

 

Unless you are independently wealthy, it's a horrible move. I feel like the (numerous) professors who talked me out of getting my teaching certificate in a two year grad program (which still would have gotten me in a lot of debt and probably wouldn't have guaranteed me a job--a good friend of mine has a degree and teaching cert from a very prestigious public university, is $80K in debt, is left wondering every year if her contract will be renewed, and now is being asked to take a pay cut for the second year in a row) and instead urged me on to grad studies in English lit are guilty of malpractice.

Edited July 3, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Kirch]

I'm just saying that it's been my observation that most teenagers and young 20somethings tend to binge drink and sleep around whether or not they attend college. If anything, the jr. enlisted soldiers we knew when DH was an Army officer as a group were actually *WORSE* than his college fraternity brothers in terms of their substance use and promiscuity.

 

I think the issue is, though, that the partying college attendees are paying/will be paying/have parents who are paying an exorbitant amount of money for an "education" that they aren't really getting while doing these things. I don't think either camp can claim the moral high ground, but at least the non-attending partiers aren't throwing thousands of dollars down the toilet as well.

[Philippians 4:8]

I am hearing this more lately as well. I agree with you....students should do what works best for their future goals.

[Mama Geek]

I am hearing this more lately as well. I agree with you....students should do what works best for their future goals.

 

I think this is what a lot of it boils down to. How many 18 year olds going into college have a real idea of what they want to do when they start working. How many have thought about what their goals really are and researched to find out how to reach those goals.

 

What do you intend to use an English degree for? Short of getting a PhD and teaching in a college what can you do with it. You may love literature but how does this translate into a feasible goal. Unless you're goal is to teach English at a lower level than what your degree is how does it benefit you. You can read and study English easily without going to college.

 

This is just one example and there are many more that are the same way or worse. If you compare this to going to school to be a welder, engineer, doctor, or any number of other marketable majors, you will get out and be able to work in Pizza Hut while the others will likely find jobs in their fields making reasonable money. What degrees can lead you into a productive job?

 

I've told several people that they would be foolish to get an engineering tech degree rather than an engineering degree. I only know of one place that is willing to hire engineering tech majors as engineers. There are lots of places willing to hire engineers.

 

We need to help our children figure out what they want to do and how to get there. If your kids are considering college spend time finding out how many jobs are out there for new graduates, what is the average starting salary for the graduates from you college in that field, what is the average salary for those who have been working in that field for many years and how consistent work is in that field.

 

My dh says while I am offending everybody on the forum :D I might as well tell them how it is with mom and pops cola and coca cola. Anyone who goes into a store to buy a soda and sees mom and pops cola and coca cola for the same price will by the coke. College degrees are the same way. A degree from a university with a reputation for excellence in your field will get you hired before someone who graduated from a lesser known school.

 

Grades matter, connections matter, drive matters, attitude matters the degree matters and the college matters.

[DawnL]

I think a lot of it stems from the fact that so many people are going deeply into debt and then not using their degree. Or their degree is just a check box on an application for work that has nothing to do with their degree.

I also think that as a society we are starting to look backwards, we're looking for the "good ol' days" so to speak, I think part of that is the idea that you work a job because you're good at it, not because you have a piece of paper that says you know about it....

 

:iagree:

 

I don't have a college degree and neither does dh. Someone shouldn't have to "check my pedigree" in order to consider if I'm "certified intelligent" or not. And no one should have to go thousands of dollars into debt for a piece of paper, just to get anywhere. Too many college students never figure out what they want to do. They go to college and rack up the debt just because they are told that "college comes next".

 

It's different if you have set goals in mind, such as an accountant, a doctor, or even an agricultural degree.

 

Why accrue debt with no goals to work toward?

[YLVD]

:iagree:

 

I don't have a college degree and neither does dh. Someone shouldn't have to "check my pedigree" in order to consider if I'm "certified intelligent" or not. And no one should have to go thousands of dollars into debt for a piece of paper, just to get anywhere. Too many college students never figure out what they want to do. They go to college and rack up the debt just because they are told that "college comes next".

 

It's different if you have set goals in mind, such as an accountant, a doctor, or even an agricultural degree.

 

Why accrue debt with no goals to work toward?

 

I'm taking a deep breath here and proceeding with caution...

 

It isn't about intelligence or pedigree. College degrees are valued in part because they show that the person can commit to getting one, staying the course and work towards that degree. That is valuable to employers and it makes sense to me.

 

I will add that I was a recruiter for a few years and hired, interviewed, fired, etc lots of people. Almost every employer that I sourced candidates for, from factory to executive positions, stated something very similar to what I posted above. It shows commitment and drive, period. Whether or not that is accurate is what you then determine with references, work experience, etc.

 

I will say that the combination of military experience with a college degree can be a magic one. I worked with a few employers that would consider military experience and some college, even if they would only hire people with university degrees. IME, military experience and a college degree can really take you far.

[Rosie_0801]

You may love literature but how does this translate into a feasible goal.

 

That just reminds me of a thought I had on the way home today. It seems to me that people are trying to choose careers on kind of grammar stage thought. "I will become a history teacher because I like reading history books." But teaching history has little to do with reading stories.

 

 

Rosie

[yslek]

What do you intend to use an English degree for? Short of getting a PhD and teaching in a college what can you do with it. You may love literature but how does this translate into a feasible goal. .

 

Two examples come to mind:

 

A woman I know (we were good friends in our teens) majored in Medieval Lit, loved every minute of it, and now works as a computer programmer.

 

My Dad had a student who majored in Ancient Near Eastern studies (because it interested her) and then was accepted into a highly competitive Med school. (I bet she stood out among all of the applicants who majored in Biology! :))

 

So, studying something one loves/has a passion for doesn't necessarily have to lead to a job in that field (or nowhere). How wonderful for the above people that they got to study something they really, really loved, and then go on to jobs/studies that lead to a decent income. Best of both worlds, imo.

[LibraryLover]

That just reminds me of a thought I had on the way home today. It seems to me that people are trying to choose careers on kind of grammar stage thought. "I will become a history teacher because I like reading history books." But teaching history has little to do with reading stories.

 

 

Rosie

 

 

And picture books and National Geographic specials are a lot more exciting than brushing sand off Montana work sites. My oldest is now 22--so many of his little friends wanted to be palentologists and none are on that track.

 

It's kind of sad, but it's the nature of the grammar age. "Fire is so exciting! I want to be a fire-fighter! Police cares are so flashy and fast! I want to be an officer!" " I get to pick something from the treasure chest at the dentist office! I want to be a dentist!" That's my favorite one, btw. :) lol

Edited July 3, 2011 by LibraryLover

[DawnL]

I'm taking a deep breath here and proceeding with caution...

 

It isn't about intelligence or pedigree. College degrees are valued in part because they show that the person can commit to getting one, staying the course and work towards that degree. That is valuable to employers and it makes sense to me.

 

I will add that I was a recruiter for a few years and hired, interviewed, fired, etc lots of people. Almost every employer that I sourced candidates for, from factory to executive positions, stated something very similar to what I posted above. It shows commitment and drive, period. Whether or not that is accurate is what you then determine with references, work experience, etc.

 

I will say that the combination of military experience with a college degree can be a magic one. I worked with a few employers that would consider military experience and some college, even if they would only hire people with university degrees. IME, military experience and a college degree can really take you far.

 

IME, working in one company for a length of time shows the same thing. It shows commitment and it shows a potential job candidate is likely someone that can be relied on. It also shows that they have real work experience, which is worth far more that just showing up at a desk that you paid money to sit at for four years.

 

I do plan on having my kids participate in the Running Start program when they are 16 or so. This way they should be able to earn a 2 year degree before they officially graduate our homeschool and they won't have to go into debt to do it.

 

And while I will encourage them to attend college for a 4 year degree, I will certainly not be disappointed if they pursue other valid options. I don't want my kids to spend their lives trying just to "find" a job. They should know how and have motivation to make their own job, rather than just vying for what's out there.

[Koerarmoca]

I know for our family personally, if my girls want to go to college I will support that fully. I also can some what assume that my daughters will want to live the life they grew up with and become a sahm homeschooling mom. While education is our primary focus I spend a great deal of time focusing on training them up to be Godly women, wives and Mothers.

[Joker]

I'm taking a deep breath here and proceeding with caution...

 

It isn't about intelligence or pedigree. College degrees are valued in part because they show that the person can commit to getting one, staying the course and work towards that degree. That is valuable to employers and it makes sense to me.

 

I will say that the combination of military experience with a college degree can be a magic one. I worked with a few employers that would consider military experience and some college, even if they would only hire people with university degrees. IME, military experience and a college degree can really take you far.

 

:iagree: My dh went to Berkeley before the USMC and employer's thought he was something special. It's crazy how far he has advanced in the dozen years since he left the Marines. We've been very fortunate and he has advised his nieces/nephews to try and do both. They seem to view him as someone with a lot of loyalty and follow through. They place a lot of trust in him and its paid off for us so far.

[Plucky]

I know for our family personally, if my girls want to go to college I will support that fully. I also can some what assume that my daughters will want to live the life they grew up with and become a sahm homeschooling mom. While education is our primary focus I spend a great deal of time focusing on training them up to be Godly women, wives and Mothers.

 

But you know homeschool mommies need a good education. Barring debt, it is an excellent career move. :D

[elizabeth]

I am just meanopausal and angry as hell at my clients many days. It is not anti intellectualism I am just hot, tired and in need of a housekeeper, chef, organizer, bookkeeper and instructor for dd. Crap, I need a wife!!! :lol:

[Koerarmoca]

But you know homeschool mommies need a good education. Barring debt, it is an excellent career move. :D

Indeed, I do hope that at the very least the get a AA/AS degree or some type of training. My 4 year degree while helpful in educating them has done nothing more than look pretty in a frame till I took it down and filed it away lol

[Plucky]

Indeed, I do hope that at the very least the get a AA/AS degree or some type of training. My 4 year degree while helpful in educating them has done nothing more than look pretty in a frame till I took it down and filed it away lol

 

Do you mind me asking, what is your degree? I see you have a business on the side. :001_smile:

[Koerarmoca]

Do you mind me asking, what is your degree? I see you have a business on the side. :001_smile:

Bachelors in Social Work (BSW) never really used it other than for ministry/non profit work that I used to do. My Biz has zero to do with it :lol:

[Plucky]

Bachelors in Social Work (BSW) never really used it other than for ministry/non profit work that I used to do. My Biz has zero to do with it :lol:

 

But it's cool you have a business on the side! That in and of itself teaches your girls so much.

 

My oldest dd wants to be a nurse and put her kids in private school since I won't homeschool them for free. LOL Heck, I didn't even plan on having kids. I really want my dd to have something to fall back on. I suspect she may change her mind a little once the babies are actually here. I really just want my kids to keep learning and as long as the debt is not crushing I would encourage them. Have a great night.

[Rosie_0801]

And picture books and National Geographic specials are a lot more exciting than brushing sand off Montana work sites. My oldest is 22, and so many of his little friends wanted to be palentologists and none are. :( Although there is a geologist. So that's something. :)

 

It's kind of sad, but it's the nature of the grammar age. "Fire is so exciting! I want to be a fire-fighter! Police cares are so flashy and fast! I want to be an officer!" " I get to pick something from the treasure chest at the dentist office! I want to be a dentist!" That's my favorite one, btw. :) lol

 

Well that's cute for little kids, :001_wub: but at 16, 17 and 18 when society is demanding careers and college majors be chosen, it still seems to be that grammar stage style thinking making the decisions. Well, maybe not your dentist example :lol: People want to go into computer programming because they like computer games, not because they like coding.

 

I'm not sure if I'm making sense, what a logic or rhetoric stage thought process would be or even if I'm at all right...

 

Rosie

[Aggie]

Two examples come to mind:

 

A woman I know (we were good friends in our teens) majored in Medieval Lit, loved every minute of it, and now works as a computer programmer.

 

My Dad had a student who majored in Ancient Near Eastern studies (because it interested her) and then was accepted into a highly competitive Med school. (I bet she stood out among all of the applicants who majored in Biology! :))

 

So, studying something one loves/has a passion for doesn't necessarily have to lead to a job in that field (or nowhere). How wonderful for the above people that they got to study something they really, really loved, and then go on to jobs/studies that lead to a decent income. Best of both worlds, imo.

 

I'd be willing to bet that the Medieval Lit degree is the exception in this economy and job market, though.

 

We're telling our dc that a degree is to get a specific J.O.B. Figure out what you want to do for income and major in that. That income must be able to support you and your family, btw. Yes, even our daughters.

 

We will not encourage, nor help fund, degrees in 18th century French poetry, music, theater, karate, underwater basket weaving, or dance. In our opinion and experience, those are hobbies. Sure, take some electives in while you work on your degree. After university, spend your weekends and evenings pursuing those activities which you love.

 

{I know too many people who majored in their 'passion' and are now struggling to put food on the table. The stress of making ends meet has sucked the joy out of their life. It's not like this for every music/theater major, I know, but I've seen it enough to convince me.}

 

On the flip side, we are providing opportunities for our dc to have their own businesses while in high school. If they ever decide to leave their chosen profession, they'll have some knowledge of, and experience in, the "I own my own business" club. For better and for worse.:001_smile:

[creekland]

 

It isn't about intelligence or pedigree. College degrees are valued in part because they show that the person can commit to getting one, staying the course and work towards that degree. That is valuable to employers and it makes sense to me.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

While work experience can help get a job, it's difficult to use work experience to get a first job in the field. The college degree is helpful there (or military experience - pending job).

 

I was surprised how quickly oldest found a summer job after an internship he was hoping for didn't come through. (The internship was intended for juniors - he just finished freshman year at college - the result wasn't surprising to me, but he was hopeful.) Teen unemployment rate is near 25%, but he, with just his freshman year under his belt, found a summer job in a local food processing plant making $9/hour + overtime in less than a week (3 work days from interview to starting). The reason? "College kids are more dependable." Some may argue the stereotype, of course, but it's the employer choosing who to hire.

 

He certainly doesn't need his degree for the job, but the money is good, and since he's in business, seeing a different type of business is good too. Besides, he's three years off from having the degree!

[creekland]

I think it takes a lot of research and visting to decide the right school. Fit is very important for undergrads; name profs less so. In higher tier schools, many (not all) undergrads are taught by graduate students, not the famous profs.

 

 

 

This is another thing that is (or has) changed at many top tier schools. Generally now (not always, but at most private schools we've checked with), the prof does the teaching and grad students take on the labs. Many like to use their high percentage of prof taught classes in their advertisements... leading to most changing to keep up with the "Jones."

 

It does take some homework to figure out which schools do what. Talking with current undergrads is helpful.

[creekland]

If you are 'poor enough', you can often get extremely good grants from an Ivy school because of how many donors they have. I've seen kids shocked to learn it would be more expensive for them to go to a community college than an Ivy....but yet again, they were dirt poor.

 

Again, at some of the Ivies, anyone earning under $60,000 has no parental contribution and no loans. They do require work study from the student.

 

I, personally, don't consider a $60,000 income to be dirt poor. Many parents in our area earn less. The average income in our area is a bit less.

 

Those earning between $60,000 and $120,000 pay 10% or less of their income on the education (graduated scale) AND they'll divide the percentage by number of students in college (doesn't have to be theirs). Still no loans.

 

Up to $180,000 qualifies for some financial aid. Their written example says that with an income of $180,000 and assets of $200,000 and one student in college, parents would pay $27,000. That's still a lot, but a lot less than the sticker price of $55,000.

 

Having seen what I've seen of costs elsewhere, I'd say they are quite generous to those in lower income brackets. And, I'd have never considered $180,000 to BE a lower income bracket if you'd have asked me.

Edited July 1, 2011 by creekland
fixing numbers

[Joyofsixreboot]

Just a theory here, but I think part of the " anti-college" talk I hear is a bit of sour grapes. For whatever reason (job loss, economic uncertainty, etc) college is becoming financially out of reach for more and more people. The human response is to say you didn't want to go anyway. I personally fall into the 'do whatever is right for you' camp. Blanket statements are usually useless. So far I have one in college and 3 more who want to go. While dh and I are thrilled to see them go we have no illusions that it will guarantee a job. Now if you want to hear how dd's classmates are squandering their opportunity that's another post.

[Annabel Lee]

I'll admit I skipped from pg. 1 to pg. 20 of this thread, but I want to go back sometime & read it all. I have experienced the anti-college attitude from local homeschoolers in my area. Not all, but some. Some are grooming their kids to go into the military, to be self-sufficient, or to learn trade skills.

 

College does seem to be ever further out of reach for people just above that "poverty line" (I agree it's not true poverty), too "rich" to qualify but who don't make enough to save a decent amount towards their children's college education. Top that off with the kids coming out of college who can't find jobs, are strapped with immense debt, and you're bound to get a bad taste in your mouth for it. Especially if you watch the documentary College Inc. I realize not all colleges fall into the category described in that film, but the problems are so pervasive that I think some people have become disillusioned.

 

I do think there are still solid degrees to be had by some truly good universities/colleges. Other institutions just really enjoy our money and if their customers, er, students learn something in the process, well that's just gravy.

 

That said, my dd hopes dearly to attend college. I want to help that happen for any of my children that want to go.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I agree with most of what you said (ok, probably all of it).

 

I also have a pretty good amount of frustration and some times anger at the college industry.

 

Things that frustrate me include:

 

The attitude that I as a "good and responsible" parent am obligated to fork over tens of thousands of dollars for my kids' education, BUT parents are then told that they are hovering if they want to know about grades, want to be informed of life threatening mental health issues, or want to know if their child was assaulted on campus. In fact there seems to be a strong preference toward separating a college student from the beliefs and views that his family holds in order to help him be more "enlightened" while at the same time, cleaving close to the parents' purse for the funding to do all this self-investigation.

 

Colleges can't seem to commit to providing enough sections of courses so that students who are willing to put in the effort are able to graduate within four years.

 

Colleges seem to not even understand the outrage about things like S3x Week, public demonstrations of b0ndage in class or presentations, speaking engagements or positions held by admitted terrorists, campaigns to celebrate men who murdered police officers, denegration of conservative or Christian views on campus, or a general enculturation of the idea that college students ought to be a semi-professional protesting class.

 

Inflation of tuition amounts that are well above the general inflation rates in the country (and defintely seem out of whack when there is so much unemployment).

 

A system of competition that seems to reward students more for having interesting stories than for being nose to the grindstone students. A system of financing college that seems to penalize thrift and personal responsibility and reward families who went into more debt than was prudent.

 

In general, when I am considering college I get hit with a feeling that we'll be paying through the nose for a degree that won't represent the excellence it once did, may represent an institution that will actively work to impress on our children that our family's values are wrong and will exhibit a certain arrogance about the whole process. When I read articles about many colleges, I feel patronized, ridiculed and despised as anything other than a purse that should sit down and keep quiet while they reform the leaders of tomorrow.

 

DH and I each have 4 year and graduate degrees. We worked our butts off to get them and to pay for them without going into debt for anything but our servitude to the military.

 

I don't expect that my kids will end up going to a decidedly Christian school. But I do feel free to tell them that I won't be interested in sending scores of thousands of dollars to institutions that seem to despise the values that earned that money. We intend to be very aware buyers who are selective about institutions and degree programs.

[ciyates]

As much as it kills me to say this college may not be right for my son. He is only 15 and may mature greatly in the next few years. If not he will learn the hard realities of life. At this point he is not taking the initiative in his school work, puts forth minimal effort and has not clue as to what he wants to do. This could all change before he turns 18 but realistically I think he will enter the job force. After struggling for a few years he may change his point of view.

 

I will not support him going to school (college or trade) to find himself, study his interest or just have the college experience.

 

A dear friend who has a BA in business and 20 solid years of managerial skills has been out of work for 2 years. 10 of the 13 serious job considerations (2nd and 3rd interviews) she has lost out on to someone without a college degree. 3 were given to people with different degrees. She is currently being considered for a position outside of her experience specifically because she does not have the HR certification. The company knows that she has enough experience experience in HR to make her a good fit for an HR manager but can pay her less because she does not have that certificate.

[cathmom]

I agree with Sebastian about the arrogance of colleges and the ways that they are making it impossible to graduate in 4 years. Actually, my son wrote an editorial about that very topic for his college newspaper LOL!

 

The general education requirements are so complicated now that it's hard to get them all in. God forbid you change your major once - that makes it practically impossible to finish in 4 years. My son will need an extra semester. He could take summer classes but he can't afford them. But why would they want you to graduate in 4 years? The longer it takes you, the more money they get.

 

Those "free rides" that poor people supposedly get - are you all aware that taxes must be paid on anything that isn't for tuition and books?? Where is the college student with a family living on the poverty line and an EFC of 0 supposed to get hundreds of dollars to pay the taxes?

[Mama Geek]

Two examples come to mind:

 

A woman I know (we were good friends in our teens) majored in Medieval Lit, loved every minute of it, and now works as a computer programmer.

 

My Dad had a student who majored in Ancient Near Eastern studies (because it interested her) and then was accepted into a highly competitive Med school. (I bet she stood out among all of the applicants who majored in Biology! :))

 

So, studying something one loves/has a passion for doesn't necessarily have to lead to a job in that field (or nowhere). How wonderful for the above people that they got to study something they really, really loved, and then go on to jobs/studies that lead to a decent income. Best of both worlds, imo.

 

If I were to bet those are exceptions that are rare, especially in todays economy.