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Why is there a general anti-college attitude lately?


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I don't want my children at the bottom of the economic heap either and I am afraid that their choices in life would be pretty limited if they didn't continue their educations. I think this is especially true as more and more employers see college as the new high school because of the low standards in many schools.

 

We are willing for them to live at home and commute to save dorm costs and we are willing to pay for the vehicle, insurance, and gas too. We are willing for them to go part-time and have a part-time job even though it will take them longer to get that degree. In dd's case, for the past two years she has taken her youthful energy and pushed herself very, very hard to stay in school full-time for pre-med but also to complete her paramedic training. She will now be taking two years off and working as a medic. The pay is not great because, in this nation, we don't pay first responders very well. But, with the overtime that they all get because the shifts are 12 hours so every week is 8 hours of overtime with the option of working a 5th shift, and the fact that she'll have good medical insurance, she'll be able to save enough money in two years while living at home to save her last two years of pre-med plus almost the entire cost of pursuing her physician's assistant degree if she chooses that route. Due to the fact that we had some savings and we've been willing to pay monthly to the university AND she hasn't lived on campus, she does not have any loans thus far.

 

Many kids are borrowing just so they can pay for dorms and that may not be wise if it is at all possible to be a commuter.

 

Her wage earning difference as a paramedic, $4300.00 tuition and books, as opposed to working whatever job was available to her with only a high school diploma, is $7.00 per hour in addition to the other jobs not offering health benefits and this one that does. Plus, her pay will continue to increase if she works on advanced certifications, attends medical conferences for first responders, keeps her hazmat and FEMA certs up to date, etc. Even if she did not pursue further college education, these two years and $4300.00 investment, will pay for themselves very quickly.

 

I think we've entered an era in the American economy in which extended education and training is an absolute MUST. But, I also think that the end of expensive college housing and the plethora of private LAC's may be ahead because of the dwindling number of students who can afford them. I'm sad to say that because I love my top tier LAC education, but I just don't see how so many of it's ilk will continue to be viable unless they do something about their tuition and housing rates.

 

Faith

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That's not the attitude my family has been experiencing lately. Just the opposite really. But I posted about that recently. :(

 

BTW, I'm not anti-college at all. I'm anti-labelling people as losers and treating them like sub-humans for choosing not to go to college, which unfortunately, is the attitude my dd19 is hearing weekly.

 

I am so, so sorry people do this to your daughter! I don't know what is wrong with these jerks. :tongue_smilie:

 

People like this annoy me to pieces.

 

Faith

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That's not the attitude my family has been experiencing lately. Just the opposite really. But I posted about that recently. :(

 

BTW, I'm not anti-college at all. I'm anti-labelling people as losers and treating them like sub-humans for choosing not to go to college, which unfortunately, is the attitude my dd19 is hearing weekly.

 

 

Poor kid. That's just wrong. She is doing the right thing by slowing down to figure things out. My dd is 18 (19 later this year) and is taking a gap year to work/travel a little (very)/take a couple of classes locally next winter. She hasn't had the same experience your dd has had. Gap years are becomming more common, and even if you don't call it that, we've not had people think it's wrong to take extra time after high school to work or consider options.

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I haven't heard anything resembling anti-intellectualism, but I have heard discussions and read several articles that questioned the current value of college.

 

It became increasingly common and the graduate to job-opening ratio has inverted.

 

This:

More and more, I am getting the impression that my children will go to college and it may not do them any good because the bachelor's degree is becoming devalued. I think that is happening because "everyone" is now going to college. I wonder if this devaluation will cause less people to further their education and swing things the other way again.

 

Lisa

 

 

And since it is no longer a sure thing (in fact, quite the opposite,) it is only natural that people start questioning whether the cost is a risk worth taking. This is especially true because the quality of the college experience is also decreasing.

 

Ester, thank you for posting that.

 

If I haven't completely alienated everyone here yet, this might do it (although I only wish to be understood, not to offend):

 

These WTM boards have been a huge contributor to my growing wariness concerning college.

 

I think I see a post every single day that goes something like this:

"Well, it must not be important, because I've never heard of that, and I have two degrees."

 

Every time, the topic in question will be something that I personally believe a child should have grasped before age 12 or so.

 

I've lost faith in the entire public education system. I believe college is proving to be as broken and ineffectual as kindergarten. (Not all colleges, not all kindergartens, of course, but the trend is definitely noticeable.) And why would that not be true? How long would colleges remain in business if they sent home everyone who could not meet the standards of yesterday?

 

The bar has been lowered. I'm not going to pay anyone to teach my child to stoop when he has been taught to high-jump.

 

This:

 

The bar has been lowered. I'm not going to pay anyone to teach my child to stoop when he has been taught to high-jump.

 

 

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:iagree:I go about homeschooling here as if my kids are college bound. I consider us doing "college prep". If my child came to me and said they didn't want to attend college, they would need to have a solid plan in place about what their future plans are and would have to show a high level of self motivation. Basically, we talk now as if that is an expectation for our family and something major would need to happen for that to change.

 

My DH and I both have 2 degrees and feel like college was important to us, intellectually and otherwise. We likely wouldn't be in the financial position to consider homechooling for our kids if we didn't have these degrees. Neither of us had any college debt by the time we were married.

 

That said, I think this emphasis on big name/Ivy League degrees and raking in tons of student debt is ridiculous. You can get a high quality college education without being in debt for the rest of your life. Both my husband and I did it. If my kids were interested in Ivy Leagues for undergrad, I'd tell them to start applying for scholarships or to set their sights on the Ivys for grad school when they could do work study.

 

I agree with all of this. I don't get the push for Ivy league degrees. I got an awesome education at a state school.

 

I have made it clear that university is the standard. I will add that my DD may have a harder-than-most road as she does have a learning disability. If she comes to me with a solid plan that is more technical in nature, I will certainly be open, as long as it's solid! lol. My preference is that she start at community college and perhaps go part time and three quarters time, even if it takes longer.

 

Ultimately, it is her life but she will need either that degree or something that is equivalent to even get one foot in a door in my area. The experience is about far more than a job also.

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That's not the attitude my family has been experiencing lately. Just the opposite really. But I posted about that recently. :(

 

BTW, I'm not anti-college at all. I'm anti-labelling people as losers and treating them like sub-humans for choosing not to go to college, which unfortunately, is the attitude my dd19 is hearing weekly.

 

I'm really sorry. :grouphug: I saw your post about that, though I didn't reply. There's no excuse for people treating her that way.

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I'm not anti-college. Not at all. But I am pro-options. Do any of you know what it's like to have a child for whom traditional college is not an option? A child with an LD or other condition that makes the idea of a 4 year degree unrealistic? If not, then you have no idea how disheartening and downright scary it is to think that your child won't even have the opportunity of working hard to support themselves, let alone a family, just because they have been born with some neurological glitches. My son is a great kid and a hard worker. He is kind, loves little kids, and is very polite to everyone. He WANTS to live on his own and have a family. He wants to have a decent job so he can work hard, move out, and support himself. Watching him struggle with school has always been hard for me, but to watch him over the last few years come to terms with his limitations, especially when "4 year degree" is all that's preached to kids these days, has been nothing short of heartbreaking.

 

It's sad to me that there is no middle ground anymore. Austin knows he has a hard road ahead of him as he begins high school work this year. He's willing to work as hard as he needs to, but there are some things that might be beyond him.

 

I can relate.

 

As I've posted throughout this thread, I'm very pro college, higher education, what have you.

 

I've had to adjust then as I have a child with a learning disability. That was a hard pill to swallow as I've been an academic person all of my life.

 

I have encouraged my DD to think outside the box and look into things that require study but that may not need a four year degree. It kills me as I really really want her to have that degree. She can still do it. I do think that it will take her longer most likely. I have talked to her about university and perhaps going part time etc.

 

It can be painful dealing with the reality of this. :grouphug:

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Ultimately, it is her life but she will need either that degree or something that is equivalent to even get one foot in a door in my area. The experience is about far more than a job also.

 

The problem is, if that's the case, how can we possibly justify making young people foot the bill for it? "Hey, if you want any chance of getting a decent job--not a sure shot, mind you, but just a chance--you'd better be willing to pay about $10K/year if you're going to go to a public university and $30K/year if you're going to a private university, and you can expect the cost to rise about 7-10% every year"? That is just wrong. And I don't blame anybody--young people or parents--for being mad and cynical about it.

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The problem is, if that's the case, how can we possibly justify making young people foot the bill for it? "Hey, if you want any chance of getting a decent job--not a sure shot, mind you, but just a chance--you'd better be willing to pay about $10K/year if you're going to go to a public university and $30K/year if you're going to a private university, and you can expect the cost to rise about 7-10% every year"? That is just wrong. And I don't blame anybody--young people or parents--for being mad and cynical about it.

 

That doesn't include room & board either. :001_unsure:

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The unemployment rate for college grads is 4.2%; for high school graduates it is 9.7%. Some degrees are more valuable than others, but for most who complete their degree it is well worth it.

 

But what's the "underemployment" rate for college grads? I know so many recent college grads who are working in jobs they could've done (and in some cases actually did do) right out of high school- waiter/waitress, cashier, lifeguard, childcare, etc. The question on so many people's minds these days is why pay all that money to go get a bachelor's only to wind up working in a job that doesn't require a degree?

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Umm, this is all going on in our high school where I work. Kids brag (or fight) about it all the time It was going on in high school when I was in school too.

 

 

High school kids generally have to be at school at 8. College students rarely do. Many college students live on or near campus, with minimal to no supervision by family members or other adults. Virtually all high school students live at home rsther than in boarding schools.

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High school kids generally have to be at school at 8. College students rarely do. Many college students live on or near campus, with minimal to no supervision by family members or other adults. Virtually all high school students live at home rsther than in boarding schools.

 

I went to college a bit older than most, and as a single parent. I saw the behavior that you are describing among the non-college set.

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High school kids generally have to be at school at 8. College students rarely do. Many college students live on or near campus, with minimal to no supervision by family members or other adults. Virtually all high school students live at home rsther than in boarding schools.

 

You're making the assumption that the parent(s) or guardian(s) with which the high school student is living is able and willing to adequately supervise him/her. Sadly, these days that seems to be the minority. :(

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I went to college a bit older than most, and as a single parent. I saw the behavior that you are describing among the non-college set.

 

Okay, I think no one has gotten my point.

 

High school kid attending public school -- parents not spending huge sums of money on special housing or educational plan for child

 

High school grad living at home and partying all the time -- not much extra money being spent on special housing and educational expenses

 

High school grad living on own with job -- parents not spending much extra on special housing and educational expenses for this person

 

College student living on campus, Partying three nights a week, spending somewhere between of $466 and $900 annually on alcohol, and several thousand dollars annually on school tuition, books, and other expenses, plus rent -- parents and possibly student spending quite a bit on special housing and educational expenses for the student

 

So what I am saying is, if someone is not serious about studying, then why go to college? Seems an awfully expensive party to me.

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You're making the assumption that the parent(s) or guardian(s) with which the high school student is living is able and willing to adequately supervise him/her. Sadly, these days that seems to be the minority. :(

 

I'm not assuming a high school kid is supervised, necessarily, but I am assuming the college student is not. That being said, many parents are fine about buying alcohol and drugs for teens, hosting parties, and so forth.

 

But my point is in my previous post. No one is spending a lot of money on the education in these situations. Unlike in college.

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Ester, thank you for posting that.

 

If I haven't completely alienated everyone here yet, this might do it (although I only wish to be understood, not to offend):

 

These WTM boards have been a huge contributor to my growing wariness concerning college.

 

I think I see a post every single day that goes something like this:

"Well, it must not be important, because I've never heard of that, and I have two degrees."

 

Every time, the topic in question will be something that I personally believe a child should have grasped before age 12 or so.

 

I've lost faith in the entire public education system. I believe college is proving to be as broken and ineffectual as kindergarten. (Not all colleges, not all kindergartens, of course, but the trend is definitely noticeable.) And why would that not be true? How long would colleges remain in business if they sent home everyone who could not meet the standards of yesterday?

 

The bar has been lowered. I'm not going to pay anyone to teach my child to stoop when he has been taught to high-jump.

 

(The son who wants to be a doctor will be going to college. We're working hard to help him be qualified for admittance to a great school. I'm not going to tell him to be an electrician like his Daddy when he has other gifts. But I'm not going to tell my second son that he needs college unless he also has a talent for something requiring that piece of paper.)

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

 

twoforjoy:

 

The problem is, if that's the case, how can we possibly justify making young people foot the bill for it? "Hey, if you want any chance of getting a decent job--not a sure shot, mind you, but just a chance--you'd better be willing to pay about $10K/year if you're going to go to a public university and $30K/year if you're going to a private university, and you can expect the cost to rise about 7-10% every year"? That is just wrong. And I don't blame anybody--young people or parents--for being mad and cynical about it.
Exactly.

 

My 'niece' who just graduated 100k in debt is now working as a receptionist at an OB/Gyn, the same office she worked at through HS. And she's thrilled to ahve that because most of her friends don't have jobs. The other recent grad I know went on the get her masters because there were no jobs and now she's highly educated and underpaid.

 

I've heard many times that Uni is the next bubble.

 

And, as much as I think you can make it without one, my kids know that they are all headed for college. We're *very* pro college, but we'll make it happen on a shoestring budget. I'm not paying (nor are they) for a degree that's the new HS diploma.

 

I'd really like to see Uni go universal, like other countries, but that's just a wish of mine. *g*

Edited by justamouse
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I think a lot of it stems from the fact that so many people are going deeply into debt and then not using their degree. Or their degree is just a check box on an application for work that has nothing to do with their degree.

I also think that as a society we are starting to look backwards, we're looking for the "good ol' days" so to speak, I think part of that is the idea that you work a job because you're good at it, not because you have a piece of paper that says you know about it....

 

 

I agree with this - college is so hugely expensive, and there are few colleges, IMHO, that you really get what you pay for. Both my husband and I went to a private, expensive college and as we look back - it was not only a waste of money, but a waste of time....that said, we are NOT anti-college - in fact my oldest son wants to go to the Air Force Academy, of all places!

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But, I also think that the end of expensive college housing and the plethora of private LAC's may be ahead because of the dwindling number of students who can afford them. I'm sad to say that because I love my top tier LAC education, but I just don't see how so many of it's ilk will continue to be viable unless they do something about their tuition and housing rates.

 

Faith

 

I don't think so. According to a few threads on college confidential, the acceptance rate at most of the top schools went down a bit this past year - implying more applications, not less. Granted, some of those may be the same person applying to more schools, but even if so, it isn't necessarily about money at the tippy top schools as they generally don't offer merit aid - just need based.

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1114650-admission-statistics-class-2015-a.html?highlight=2011+acceptance+rates

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:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

 

twoforjoy:

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

My 'niece' who just graduated 100k in debt is now working as a receptionist at an OB/Gyn, the same office she worked at through HS. And she's thrilled to ahve that because most of her friends don't have jobs. The other recent grad I know went on the get her masters because there were no jobs and now she's highly educated and underpaid.

 

I've heard many times that Uni is the next bubble.

 

I understand what you're saying here. But, in my area and for most companies that I've worked for and recruited people for, getting that job as a receptionist REQUIRES that bachelor's degree. It may be crazy but true.

 

Even though it may not be her dream job, in my cases, she would not even have that job without the degree. She would then be unemployed or working in a fast food restaurant. At this point, the degree is what gets someone just barely in the door.

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It's not very surprising that those four graduates with degrees in anthropology, literature, history and creative writing are having a hard time finding work in their field. :001_huh:

 

Is it really shocking to young people today that if you spend 80k on a degree in comparative literature, you may not be able to pay that back?

 

Yes, I realize there are lots of people with more practical degrees out there not working in their field. But this was a no-brainer.

 

Well, in my college thread about my dd19, several suggested that the point was to get A degree, ANY degree, because it was better than not having one at all. With people thinking like that, this attitude may not be as much of a no-brainer as you think. My dd19 and I are looking through all of these threads and we're feeling more confused than when we started thinking about college. We would like to run away to a non-populated island with free internet and food delivery. :tongue_smilie:

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I understand what you're saying here. But, in my area and for most companies that I've worked for and recruited people for, getting that job as a receptionist REQUIRES that bachelor's degree. It may be crazy but true.

 

Even though it may not be her dream job, in my cases, she would not even have that job without the degree. She would then be unemployed or working in a fast food restaurant. At this point, the degree is what gets someone just barely in the door.

 

I understand completely. Our (the one we own*) company requires one-but that's because MOST people who graduate HS can't read well enough to do what we'd require of them-nor do the simple math.

 

Hence, why I homeschool.

 

*hypocritical? (because I don't have a degree, Dh not in what the company uses) maybe, but there's not a lot of room for error in what we do and the machinery we use. We DO have some that don't have degrees, but they're the few that can think on their feet and don't need to be babysat. They've worked hard and worked their way up.

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I think the answer to the OP's question is anger. It's not anti-intellectualism, although I know some people have to deal with that; it's anti-waste.

 

We are going through a period where we're suffering collectively from the actions of entitled, over-paid executives who did worked the system and didn't care about the consequences. We're also quite aware of how our collective emphasis on money and spending has hurt us and our environment.

 

Thrift is in. Living closer to the land is in. Practicality is in.

 

Universities don't "fit" that picture, often. They are rather wasteful - with their fancy buildings, kids lolling around, humongous budgets, etc. I'm not saying Universities are bad - they just don't fit our collective ideal of the moment.

 

I'm definitely taking a second look myself. I always thought my kids would go to...well...Ivy League universities like I did. Now our plan is to send them to two years at the CC and two years at one of our province's universities. They will get a perfectly fine degree and all the benefits at about 1/4 the cost of my Ivy League education.

 

I'm encouraging my kids to go to university, but if they chose a trade I would back that 100%. The tradespeople in my neck of the woods out-earn the university people like you wouldn't believe: many of them are taking home well over $100,000 and I don't know any white collar workers making that around here. Unfortunately, my kids' interests don't lie in that direction.

 

One son wants to be a vet, and will have to go to years of school first, but on the recommendation of the vet he's visited, he will go to a technical school first and become a vet tech, then do the rest when he's proved to himself he really loves it and has what it takes. The vet tech programs here count for the first two years of Uni that vets need.

 

I think it's very smart that as a whole we are re-thinking university. I hope that soon a lot of new options will be out there: hybrid trades/university courses for example for people who want to learn trades but would like a little university polish as well.

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Do any of you know what it's like to have a child for whom traditional college is not an option? A child with an LD or other condition that makes the idea of a 4 year degree unrealistic? If not, then you have no idea how disheartening and downright scary it is to think that your child won't even have the opportunity of working hard to support themselves, let alone a family, just because they have been born with some neurological glitches.

 

Ah.. we were just talking about this last night at my Aspergers Teen Group meetup. One lady's son is doing a study at Emory that is designed to help AS teens learn job interview skills. All I keep thinking about are the two grocery stores in my area where a couple of young men with obvious special needs work as bag boys. I don't want that to be my son. I know he is capable of doing more, but his lack of social skills and difficulty with the process of schoolwork has me seriously worried. I didn't have an answer about college and my son. I just have no idea what is going to happen. He's in 10th grade this year and is facing the PSAT. Egads!

 

:grouphug: It sucks, doesn't it?

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Kids don't learn this stuff in college

 

True, but I have met many college students who feel that the living away from parents and being able to party is what college is about. Honestly. They have actually said that. I'm in a unique position to be included in such conversations because I'm at school with them. They don't mind that I'm the same age as their parents. They see me as a classmate. One night during a particular lively conversation with 4 girls ages 19 and 20, I put my fingers in my ears and sang 'lalalalala'. That made them laugh. I laughed too, but inside I just kept thinking about their moms and what they would say if they could actually hear what their daughters were saying.

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Well, in my college thread about my dd19, several suggested that the point was to get A degree, ANY degree, because it was better than not having one at all. With people thinking like that, this attitude may not be as much of a no-brainer as you think. My dd19 and I are looking through all of these threads and we're feeling more confused than when we started thinking about college. We would like to run away to a non-populated island with free internet and food delivery. :tongue_smilie:

 

:D about the island and delivery. Maybe the new realism attitude hasn't reached your area yet, but where I'm at nobody is thinking this *any* degree bologna. Maybe the filthy rich, perhaps. ;)

 

Let me drift off into rambling...Many of the folks we know do not qualify for financial aid. (We don't currently, but maybe with 3 kids in school at same time we will.) Even if my kids got into Harvard, they would have to pay full price. Therefore, that is not even a goal of ours. I am not ashamed to say that. It's not in the realm of realistic to think we could come up with well over 200k for any undergrad degree. There is no way I would co-sign loans for a child planning

such a thing. This would be my parenting hill on which to die.

 

So-- back to those with these ridiculous 'any money for any ole degree' thoughts in this day and age. That's just crud. Don't buy it. Even if some parents will agree to it doesn't make it right. College is expensive and I agree that a well -considered decision is mostly a good investment. I even believe that some degree of borrowing is necessary in certain income brackets. But going off to college with no goals, no plans, borrowing 40k/ yr all the while is a plan for disaster.

 

Your dd is not wrong for taking time to decide. The ones going willy-nilly are bull -headed ones.

Edited by LibraryLover
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I can't seem to find the post about the undergrad chemist making $11/ hr. I have a thought about that. ;) He should go to grad school. It will open doors and he will be able to pay off those loans, and perhaps without borrowing another dime.

 

Science graduate students have opportunity to TA. My own scientist dh never paid one cent of tuition or took out a loan after his BA. It was all funded by his TA stipends/ scholarship, with money left over for modest rent. My dh sees lots of young biologists, chemists etc., without grad degrees and it's true there isn't much they can do with them, or pay them. Mostly these fields require a grad degree. You might not get a good university job, which are highly competitive , but you can do well in some industry areas with an MA.

 

I wouldn't encourage him to stop now.

 

:iagree: I'm surprised to hear of people who have a BS in a science major, and think they'll get far without a Masters degree. Unless they dual majored in education and plan to teach.

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Well yes I have seen this. It isn't an attitude I go with, however, I don't think college is for everyone. I also think that getting in huge debt is very unwise. BUt then I see and hear of students going to college who shouldn't. I only know one girl who is deciding to go to a technical school instead of college. Everyone else is going to college-however, more than half are starting at CC.

 

In terms of loose morals in college- it didn't happen with my son and I think it even less likely to happen with my older daughter. The girl is ambitious and it certainly isn't her plan to go to college and party. Her plan is to get a major, two minors and an honors degree. Her plan is to join some worthwhile student groups like a church group, a political group, debate, and a choir. Now if I had a child I was thinking would be acting irresponsibly, I wouldn't be funding college. But that isn't the case.

We are an upper middle income family and college is the usual post-college experience in our circle of neighbors, church attendees, and co-workers.

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There are no guarantees in life...The best you can do in any situation is to do your research, use your head, and make the best decision you can based on knowledge...Listen to your heart but be practical as well...There is no guarantee that a college degree will get you the job you want, but you will probably be better off with it if you did your research, went to the right school and picked the right major...If you decide that you want to do something that doesn't require a college degree, again do your research and make the best decision you can and try to set yourself up to win...This is where good parenting comes in...We can't make our children do anything once they are grown, but we can offer guidance...Know how much debt you will be in before you take out loan after loan...Know what your earning potential will be when you are done whatever it is you choose to do, whether college, grade school, travel, etc...Make decisions based on knowledge, and stop treating college like 13th grade, where you just go from class to class with no real plan or idea what is really going on...Unfortunately though, at the end of the day, there are no guanrantees...

 

Wow, I think that was my first rant :tongue_smilie:

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A few years ago a friend decided to go to Harvard to get his MBA. This after he had a PhD in engineering. He paid for it himself instead of going to a different school on a scholarship. He is now VP in a Fortune 500 company. I am sure that he thought paying to go to Harvard was worth the money. There is a lot to be said for going to the top Ivy League school in the country. If dh decided to do that at this time, I would fully support that. It is hard to say what the world will be like when dd reaches that age.

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There are no guarantees in life...The best you can do in any situation is to do your research, use your head, and make the best decision you can based on knowledge...Listen to your heart but be practical as well...There is no guarantee that a college degree will get you the job you want, but you will probably be better off with it if you did your research, went to the right school and picked the right major...If you decide that you want to do something that doesn't require a college degree, again do your research and make the best decision you can and try to set yourself up to win...This is where good parenting comes in...We can't make our children do anything once they are grown, but we can offer guidance...Know how much debt you will be in before you take out loan after loan...Know what your earning potential will be when you are done whatever it is you choose to do, whether college, grade school, travel, etc...Make decisions based on knowledge, and stop treating college like 13th grade, where you just go from class to class with no real plan or idea what is really going on...Unfortunately though, at the end of the day, there are no guanrantees...

 

Wow, I think that was my first rant :tongue_smilie:

 

You did a pretty good job for a first one:lol:

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I have not read the replies to this post, but as someone very close to the college community, I'd say it's because of many things. The cost of going to college is rising at a ridiculous rate. If you haven't been paying attention, you should really check out the numbers because they are horrifying. Also, many colleges are caring less and less about their students. They are more of a number than a person and all they care about usually is that they are getting paid and they seem to do anything to get more money from you. I know of one university that started stamping the year on the books they were selling and telling students that they had to have the right stamp on their book for class (they couldn't buy used books)...though I think they ended up getting in trouble for this. There have been many cases in courts about banks and colleges having deals together where the college will try to trick students into a not-so-great loans with the bank and get a payoff. Many colleges have ended up having to send students a check for tricking them this way. Also, the level of teaching in many classes has greatly decreased so that many courses do not reach the depth that the students that want to have college level courses would desire until much higher up. And, of course, all the classes that are high school level are required so that if you want to go deeper, you have to waste a few years and tons of money to be allowed to take them. Also, many classes that are higher up are very hard to get into because the college only offers one class for one semester each year so everyone that needs that class is trying to get into it, which has caused many students that I know to have to stay at college an extra year (even more money spent). And then there is the fact that the majority of students are just going to college because that is what they are supposed to do so they don't care and mess around, not doing homework or projects, and yet they still pass usually. Since so many students are doing the same, the teacher puts everything on a curve so that almost no one fails. The kids that are working their butts off are shaking their heads realizing they worked so hard to get a 96, got an extra half a point from the curve, but are considered pretty much the same (they both passed and graduated) as the student that did nothing and got 14 extra points from the curve so that they were now passing. Also, they often have to work in a group with those students that don't do the work, so they are left trying to do everything so their grades don't suffer. Even worse, there is rampant cheating going on. I once observed a class that was taking a final (I was in the back and they didn't know I was there) where the teacher had stepped out for a phone call and one student grabbed another students test and was quickly copying answers while yet another student prevented the girl from getting her paper back. She was crying when the teacher came back in, but when the teacher asked her what was wrong, she said nothing. He was very mad when I privately filled him in, but what if I had not been there?

 

To sum up, college costs more, you get less, and you get mistreated while doing it. Obviously, this is not everyone's experience and college can still be very useful, but when so many people are getting this experience and hating it more and more often, they tell other people and soon people don't like the sound of going to college as much as doing something 'more useful' with their time. Also, sorry this is so long. I find this topic very interesting and could practically write a book about it. :-)

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He paid for it. He didn't finance it. That's different. I wonder about these ivies in the future. The make- up will be different, and maybe better; I have no idea. But it seems to me the classes will be mostly a mix of the very wealthy-- who can pay full price-- and the poor, who will not pay anything. (Funny--and sad-- to consider that 60k / year is considered poor.)

 

A few years ago a friend decided to go to Harvard to get his MBA. This after he had a PhD in engineering. He paid for it himself instead of going to a different school on a scholarship. He is now VP in a Fortune 500 company. I am sure that he thought paying to go to Harvard was worth the money. There is a lot to be said for going to the top Ivy League school in the country. If dh decided to do that at this time, I would fully support that. It is hard to say what the world will be like when dd reaches that age.
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After catching up with this whole thread, I've got another point to ponder. Do you think that anti-college attitudes could be because it is the college graduates that are getting the jobs that used to normally go to non-college-grads? I think that might be the reason the statistics for unemployed non-college-degree people are so high. The jobs that used to be competitive between experienced people are now defaulting to college degrees over experience. So yes, I can see where people think that any degree is better than no degree. But it absolutely freaks me out that my children need to spend nearly $30,000 to get a job making less than that per year.

 

I'm also in awe of all the people who talk about scholarships and grants like they are just falling out of the sky. I'm clueless in finding those! My experience with those was from when I was broke, in the first few years of my first marriage. I spent hours researching scholarships last year when I was trying to find money for school for myself. The FAFSA only suggested loans. My DH makes way too much money for me to be considered financial aid worthy. Where do we go to find scholarships that pay college tuition that are not FAFSA awarded?

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I'm also in awe of all the people who talk about scholarships and grants like they are just falling out of the sky. I'm clueless in finding those! My experience with those was from when I was broke, in the first few years of my first marriage. I spent hours researching scholarships last year when I was trying to find money for school for myself. The FAFSA only suggested loans. My DH makes way too much money for me to be considered financial aid worthy. Where do we go to find scholarships that pay college tuition that are not FAFSA awarded?

As someone who went to college on scholarships, I know they're not so easy to get. This is one of the reasons that I get so irritated with the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mentality. I got my scholarships because I was the top student in my class in both high school and college. Even if you bust your butt, there is only going to be one top student, so those scholarships are quite limited.

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There are no guarantees in life...The best you can do in any situation is to do your research, use your head, and make the best decision you can based on knowledge...Listen to your heart but be practical as well...There is no guarantee that a college degree will get you the job you want, but you will probably be better off with it if you did your research, went to the right school and picked the right major...If you decide that you want to do something that doesn't require a college degree, again do your research and make the best decision you can and try to set yourself up to win...This is where good parenting comes in...We can't make our children do anything once they are grown, but we can offer guidance...Know how much debt you will be in before you take out loan after loan...Know what your earning potential will be when you are done whatever it is you choose to do, whether college, grade school, travel, etc...Make decisions based on knowledge, and stop treating college like 13th grade, where you just go from class to class with no real plan or idea what is really going on...Unfortunately though, at the end of the day, there are no guanrantees...

 

Wow, I think that was my first rant :tongue_smilie:

 

:party: Congrats! :D

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...The cost of going to college is rising at a ridiculous rate.

...the level of teaching in many classes has greatly decreased so that many courses do not reach the depth that the students that want to have college level courses would desire until much higher up.

...Also, many classes that are higher up are very hard to get into because the college only offers one class for one semester each year so everyone that needs that class is trying to get into it, which has caused many students that I know to have to stay at college an extra year (even more money spent).

...And then there is the fact that the majority of students are just going to college because that is what they are supposed to do so they don't care and mess around, not doing homework or projects, and yet they still pass usually.

...The kids that are working their butts off are shaking their heads realizing they worked so hard to get a 96, got an extra half a point from the curve, but are considered pretty much the same (they both passed and graduated) as the student that did nothing and got 14 extra points from the curve so that they were now passing.

...Also, they often have to work in a group with those students that don't do the work, so they are left trying to do everything so their grades don't suffer.

...there is rampant cheating going on.

...one student grabbed another students test and was quickly copying answers

 

 

OMG! Were you at my school last year?? I experienced every single one of these things just in the last year, right down to someone cheating off someone else who didn't have the courage to say no. I filled out every single end-of-class survey with the same comment--that I wished the class had been deeper rather than so shallow. I was especially harsh on the survey for my Educational Philosophy course. We spent more time talking about methods to get kids to do their work, time-outs vs. stickers, than we did on studying the various philosophies of education! That class was SO not what the description said or what the textbook covered. I was so disappointed!

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Night Elf, I would not consider spending 30k on a decent degree to be unrealistic. I even think financing some or all of that with student loans could be an excellent investment, depending on the student, their course of study/future plans.

 

Were talking about earning potential over a lifetime. What one makes the first few years is not necessarily representative of future earnings.

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True, but I have met many college students who feel that the living away from parents and being able to party is what college is about. Honestly. They have actually said that. I'm in a unique position to be included in such conversations because I'm at school with them. They don't mind that I'm the same age as their parents. They see me as a classmate. One night during a particular lively conversation with 4 girls ages 19 and 20, I put my fingers in my ears and sang 'lalalalala'. That made them laugh. I laughed too, but inside I just kept thinking about their moms and what they would say if they could actually hear what their daughters were saying.

 

:iagree: Those students definitely are there and they are likely to be those who have a tough time graduating and/or finding a job later. My point is that they didn't learn these skills in college. They are already experienced in high school.

 

If I had a student who planned to major in party, I wouldn't be supporting them financially. My boys are there for the education, but are expected to also enjoy themselves while there - in that order - and likely without booze or sheets knowing their personalities. They already decline the booze and sheets offers unlike many of their peers.

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I think it is intelligent to consider all options carefully rather than presume the college conveyer belt and massive debt is automatically the best way to go. When something is so ingrained, there will always be contrary movements as people really question- is that really necessary? I think it is a sign of people thinking rather than being sheep. Of course, you can be a sheep no matter what you do- its not about whether or not one goes to college- its about having a good look.

 

We are homeschoolers. We took a step away from mainstream schooling, and people still look at us and think we are weird. Why are homeschoolers so darned conservative and one eyes when it comes to what one does after homeschooling?

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I think the answer to the OP's question is anger. It's not anti-intellectualism, although I know some people have to deal with that; it's anti-waste.

 

We are going through a period where we're suffering collectively from the actions of entitled, over-paid executives who did worked the system and didn't care about the consequences. We're also quite aware of how our collective emphasis on money and spending has hurt us and our environment.

 

Thrift is in. Living closer to the land is in. Practicality is in.

 

Universities don't "fit" that picture, often. They are rather wasteful - with their fancy buildings, kids lolling around, humongous budgets, etc. I'm not saying Universities are bad - they just don't fit our collective ideal of the moment.

 

I'm definitely taking a second look myself. I always thought my kids would go to...well...Ivy League universities like I did. Now our plan is to send them to two years at the CC and two years at one of our province's universities. They will get a perfectly fine degree and all the benefits at about 1/4 the cost of my Ivy League education.

 

I'm encouraging my kids to go to university, but if they chose a trade I would back that 100%. The tradespeople in my neck of the woods out-earn the university people like you wouldn't believe: many of them are taking home well over $100,000 and I don't know any white collar workers making that around here. Unfortunately, my kids' interests don't lie in that direction.

 

One son wants to be a vet, and will have to go to years of school first, but on the recommendation of the vet he's visited, he will go to a technical school first and become a vet tech, then do the rest when he's proved to himself he really loves it and has what it takes. The vet tech programs here count for the first two years of Uni that vets need.

 

I think it's very smart that as a whole we are re-thinking university. I hope that soon a lot of new options will be out there: hybrid trades/university courses for example for people who want to learn trades but would like a little university polish as well.

 

Awesome awesome awesome post.

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He paid for it. He didn't finance it. That's different. I wonder about these ivies in the future. The make- up will be different, and maybe better; I have no idea. But it seems to me the classes will be mostly a mix of the very wealthy-- who can pay full price-- and the poor, who will not pay anything. (Funny--and sad-- to consider that 60k / year is considered poor.)

 

Not really. If one makes between 60-180K the total family contribution is graduated, but promised to be no more than 10% of income (less if more than one offspring is in college). Again, no loans.

 

The only reason we might consider one of these schools is due to that. If our economy picks back up to being more than 60K, we won't totally be out the increase due to the cost of school. If it picks up to more than 180K (highly doubtful), I don't mind funding school for a few years.

 

The financing of it all makes it appealing to try for since the kiddo has the stats. He doesn't have the "wow" application more wealthy students will have - he hasn't started his own non-profit nor been able to do published research in our rural area, so he might end up one of the 93% not admitted, but we might try. Emphasis on might. We haven't visited the place yet and kiddo has a different first choice school at the moment that he has visited.

 

I doubt we're the only ones intrigued by some Ivy (not all) financial facts. It could be partially why their acceptance rates are getting lower. A larger pool is a win-win for them. They can be more selective (not that they weren't already!). They can get their financial make up however they want it. Lots of diversity opportunities.

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I'm also in awe of all the people who talk about scholarships and grants like they are just falling out of the sky. I'm clueless in finding those! My experience with those was from when I was broke, in the first few years of my first marriage. I spent hours researching scholarships last year when I was trying to find money for school for myself. The FAFSA only suggested loans. My DH makes way too much money for me to be considered financial aid worthy. Where do we go to find scholarships that pay college tuition that are not FAFSA awarded?

 

You need high stats and some hours spent school shopping for decent merit aid opportunites. That's why we left our local public school. The education there doesn't meet MY standards. Homeschooling has allowed my boys to live up to their capabilities quite nicely. Youngest is not likely to make these stats - esp now that he's back in ps. We are expecting to have to pay more for him, BUT he might get high enough stats to get merit aid at the schools he is considering (not top tier, but good in what he wants). Time will tell. We would be very thankful if he can meet that bar.

 

Knowing that bar is there I'm already pulling him from our top level 10th grade English class based on the teacher's book selection for summer reading. I'm insisting that the school allow him to do something that meets my top level standard... which, incidentally, also happens to match college board's most recommended books. I don't meet with them until sometime in July, so we'll see what happens. This kid went into 9th grade at ps testing in the top 99% on standardized English testing. He doesn't need them to drop it down by not having classes up to par.

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I think the answer to the OP's question is anger. It's not anti-intellectualism, although I know some people have to deal with that; it's anti-waste.

 

We are going through a period where we're suffering collectively from the actions of entitled, over-paid executives who did worked the system and didn't care about the consequences. We're also quite aware of how our collective emphasis on money and spending has hurt us and our environment.

 

Thrift is in. Living closer to the land is in. Practicality is in.

 

Universities don't "fit" that picture, often. They are rather wasteful - with their fancy buildings, kids lolling around, humongous budgets, etc. I'm not saying Universities are bad - they just don't fit our collective ideal of the moment.

 

I'm definitely taking a second look myself. I always thought my kids would go to...well...Ivy League universities like I did. Now our plan is to send them to two years at the CC and two years at one of our province's universities. They will get a perfectly fine degree and all the benefits at about 1/4 the cost of my Ivy League education.

 

I'm encouraging my kids to go to university, but if they chose a trade I would back that 100%. The tradespeople in my neck of the woods out-earn the university people like you wouldn't believe: many of them are taking home well over $100,000 and I don't know any white collar workers making that around here. Unfortunately, my kids' interests don't lie in that direction.

 

One son wants to be a vet, and will have to go to years of school first, but on the recommendation of the vet he's visited, he will go to a technical school first and become a vet tech, then do the rest when he's proved to himself he really loves it and has what it takes. The vet tech programs here count for the first two years of Uni that vets need.

 

I think it's very smart that as a whole we are re-thinking university. I hope that soon a lot of new options will be out there: hybrid trades/university courses for example for people who want to learn trades but would like a little university polish as well.

 

Beautifully stated. My DH and I both got BAs and he an MA at top-tier private schools and until recently, expected that we would want the same for our kids. For many of the reasons you outlined so well in this post, we are reconsidering whether that is a smart expectation after all.

 

I will say it again- anti-intellectualism has NOTHING to do with it, at least in my case. Whether colleges and universities were the bastions of intellectualism at one point in history is arguable, but there most certainly is no guarantee that going to college/university today provides one with an intellectually stimulating experience, and I think the days of a degree guaranteeing a job are also numbered.

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After catching up with this whole thread, I've got another point to ponder. Do you think that anti-college attitudes could be because it is the college graduates that are getting the jobs that used to normally go to non-college-grads? I think that might be the reason the statistics for unemployed non-college-degree people are so high. The jobs that used to be competitive between experienced people are now defaulting to college degrees over experience.

 

Is this a regional thing? I would be interested in seeing stats for this. It is not the case for my area at all. Trade experience gets the job in my neck of the woods.

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:iagree:

 

There are so many jobs that require a degree to apply when, really, a degree will not help you in the position at all. Before kids, I was in human resources. I have a Literature degree. I had to have a degree to get the job but I really didn't use it in the job.

 

I think people are starting to push back against the idea that you are required to spend lots of money to get a regular job. I think it is a good thing. Too many kids are borrowing up to the eyebrows just to have a piece of paper.

 

If a person is only attending college and working on a degree just to get a job in the future, then I can see what you are saying. Personally, I learned many life lessons at university beyond the course work. I also took classes that have nothing to do with my degree but have made me a more well-rounded person.

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I'm not anti-college, I'm pro- value for money!

 

 

Ideally, my kids will start working as soon as they can get a job. I don't care if they have to stretch high school out in order to do that. If they can save money, they can pay for part time uni upfront. Student loans are not the big panic they often are in the US, as our system is different, but it is inconvenient enough. The ability to work a "proper" job during high school is one of the main attractions to homeschooling through those years. They'll be able to do a day job that counts for something on their resumes.

 

Rosie

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