Saxon Math Dumbed Down?

[Guest melindaharrub]

Can someone comment about whether or not Saxon Math has been rewritten in recent years and "dumbed down" in order to be placed in mainstream public/private schools?

[sheryl]

I can't answer that specific question. What I can tell you is Saxon is revered as a great math program. Now it may not be every child's learning style, but it's considered "one" of the best.

 

My now 12 yo dd used it for K - 4 and did quite well.

 

Then she hit 5/4 and found it difficult. So much so that she repeated it the following year.

 

This year in 6th grade she used BJU.

 

Maybe something's changed with Saxon in the last few years....I don't know.

 

:bigear:

[LisaKinVA]

I think this refers to the new Geometry book in the higher math. Saxon has never had a "Geometry" course, but instead incorporated Geometry (at least some parts of it) into the upper levels. From what I recall, they have since "stripped" the Geometry out of the Algebra II and Advanced Math and created a new "Geometry" book.

 

I have no idea if the actual content is less challenging because of it. I will also say, that I had planned on using Saxon all the way through high school with my kids (that plan died in Kindergarten, and was never ressurected). But, I had planned on adding a different Geometry course to the program.

[AK_Mom4]

We used the new edition Saxon geometry. Definitely not dumbed down - but it had more picture/side bars/practical applications that you did not see in the older versions of Saxon Alg1 & 2. I did have a chance to look at the "new" version of the Algebra 1 book that's designed for school use. Again, same rigorous material IMO, but with more of the extra stuff added in (and less geometry because they expect you to use the Geometry book).

 

So, no - IMO they have not been dumbed down. They have been targeted for a different audience, however - one that requires all sorts of extra "stuff" to meet certain "standards". Would I use the new editions? Probably - but my kids do well with saxon anyway. (and nope - I don't get paid to do this....)

[silliness7]

I read something about this in Art Reed's newsletter. I can't remember the details but I've gotten it in my head to only use the certain editions that he's recommended, not older or newer. I'll go see if I can find the article.

 

 

ETA: Here's the link. Scroll down to the May 2011 newsletter.

Edited May 30, 2011 by silliness7

[mhgillil]

Recently, Saxon has begun publishing separate editions of their textbooks specifically for homeschoolers with "dumbed down" material. My DH read an article about this several months ago. I'll see if I can track down that source.

 

EDIT: Here's the link - http://www.lewrockwell.com/taylor/taylor86.html

Edited May 30, 2011 by mhgillil

[gingersmom]

Recently, Saxon has begun publishing separate editions of their textbooks specifically for homeschoolers with "dumbed down" material. My DH read an article about this several months ago. I'll see if I can track down that source.

 

EDIT: Here's the link - http://www.lewrockwell.com/taylor/taylor86.html

 

Who is the woman who wrote the blog post and why should I care about her opinion?

[Teachin'Mine]

Recently, Saxon has begun publishing separate editions of their textbooks specifically for homeschoolers with "dumbed down" material. My DH read an article about this several months ago. I'll see if I can track down that source.

 

EDIT: Here's the link - http://www.lewrockwell.com/taylor/taylor86.html

 

Okay. Trying to figure out how to say this. I don't agree. :)

 

The homeschool versions are soft cover, so aren't likely to withstand as many uses as a hardcover version would, so I can understand larger families wanting the hardcover books. But to say that the soft cover homeschool version is "dumbed down" is absurd at best. It's written to the student and there are references which homeschoolers can more easily relate to rather than "if all the boys in your class had ...". They're written with the assumption that the student is learning at home and not in a traditional classroom setting. That's one of the things we liked. :D

 

FWIW we've found the Saxon homeschool texts to be thorough, rigorous and awesome. Hardcover would be nice, but they obviously want to sell more than fewer and I would think that a hardcover version would cost a bit more to print. Would be nice if they offered the option though.

 

I would never call this new math. It's solid math which encourages mental math and mastery of the basics over calculator use. Just my opinion.

[Teachin'Mine]

Who is the woman who wrote the blog post and why should I care about her opinion?

 

I was thinking the same thing. ;)

[katilac]

Recently, Saxon has begun publishing separate editions of their textbooks specifically for homeschoolers with "dumbed down" material. My DH read an article about this several months ago. I'll see if I can track down that source.

 

EDIT: Here's the link - http://www.lewrockwell.com/taylor/taylor86.html

 

Keep in mind, that article is 6 years old.

 

I don't know if there are big differences in the classroom/homeschool editions, but it seems like it would be easy enough to compare if someone is truly interested. Saxon is everywhere, lol. The conspiracy angle (they're trying to make homeschoolers stupid!) was just silly, imo. She makes a big deal about why there should be a different edition for hs'ers at all, but at least one reason is obvious to me: hs'ers don't have much use for large group activities that are often included in classroom editions (and I've often seen posts wishing that certain books would be adapted from the hs edition).

[gingersmom]

Can someone comment about whether or not Saxon Math has been rewritten in recent years and "dumbed down" in order to be placed in mainstream public/private schools?

 

 

Here's a question-

 

Why are there recently many many posts by a person with 1 post only about Saxon.

 

I think Mr. Art Reed has nothing better to do.

[kristinannie]

That article did reek of conspiracy theories. Although I am not a huge fan of government, I would have a hard time believing that one!

 

Anyway, while I have all the Saxon users here.....

 

I am planning on using McRuffy Color math from K-3. I was thinking of switching to Saxon for 5/4. I know people rave about SM, but I really just want my kids to have a solid foundation in math. I have heard so many people complain about Saxon, but I would like to hear why you use Saxon. My husband and I are scientists and love math. I am planning on all of my kids (God willing) to take Calculus in 12th grade. I just want a solid math program. I don't mind spending a lot of time doing math since it is such an important skill so that isn't a worry. I know lots of people say that their kids just memorize with Saxon and don't "think" things out. That is the main complaint I hear (other than the long lessons). I would love to hear your thoughts on Saxon (which is hopefully not dumbed down :lol:)

[TXBeth]

"the "A" and "B" students easily accomplish the daily 30 math problems in 45 - 60 minutes each day."

 

Wow. 45-60 minutes just working problems, and that's the honor roll kids!?!? If we spend an hour on math, it's going to be maybe 10 min. explaining a new concept, 20 min. games or activities, 10 min. of fact drill (flashcards or computer), and no more than twenty minutes of pencil-and-paper problems. I can't even fathom sitting a pre-high-school child down for a whole hour to stare at a math page. No wonder I hated Saxon as a kid.

 

Beth

[angela in ohio]

Recently, Saxon has begun publishing separate editions of their textbooks specifically for homeschoolers with "dumbed down" material. My DH read an article about this several months ago. I'll see if I can track down that source.

 

EDIT: Here's the link - http://www.lewrockwell.com/taylor/taylor86.html

 

This article has been discussed at length on this board many times before. It is not true.

[LittleIzumi]

I read something about this in Art Reed's newsletter. I can't remember the details but I've gotten it in my head to only use the certain editions that he's recommended, not older or newer. I'll go see if I can find the article.

 

 

ETA: Here's the link. Scroll down to the May 2011 newsletter.

 

"John Saxon would not have sanctioned gutting his Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 textbooks of their geometry to create a separate geometry textbook. He believed that using a separate geometry textbook was not conducive to mastering high school mathematics. More importantly, each of John’s math books had an author - an experienced classroom mathematician - behind them. These three new editions, created under his Saxon title, do not. "

 

Huh. :001_huh:

[Heather in WI]

This article has been discussed at length on this board many times before. It is not true.

 

Many, many times. Here and the old board. :)

[Mommy22alyns]

Here's a question-

 

Why are there recently many many posts by a person with 1 post only about Saxon.

 

I think Mr. Art Reed has nothing better to do.

 

It's actually Bill.

 

KIDDING!!!!

[Heather in WI]

It's actually Bill.

 

 

So glad I swallowed my mouthful of beer before reading your post. :lol: LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!

[justasque]

It's actually Bill.

 

KIDDING!!!!

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Snickerdoodle]

It's actually Bill.

 

KIDDING!!!!

 

*SNORT*

 

:lol:

[silliness7]

Keep in mind, that article is 6 years old.

 

I don't know if there are big differences in the classroom/homeschool editions, but it seems like it would be easy enough to compare if someone is truly interested. Saxon is everywhere, lol. The conspiracy angle (they're trying to make homeschoolers stupid!) was just silly, imo. She makes a big deal about why there should be a different edition for hs'ers at all, but at least one reason is obvious to me: hs'ers don't have much use for large group activities that are often included in classroom editions (and I've often seen posts wishing that certain books would be adapted from the hs edition).

 

Well, not to sound like an Art Reed groupie....

But he doesn't seem to share this particular opinion from this particular article and I gather that he has actually compared the books and not relied solely on hearsay.

 

A quote from her letter.

"My goal is to separate a truth from any embellishment; from any agenda. I believe that the best way to do this is to ask the Saxon/Harcourt Achieve people and hope that they will be honorable and honest with their responses."

 

I disagree. I think the best way to do this is to get your hands on the actual books and compare them for yourself. I believe Mr. Reed has done this. I feel like I can trust his guidance on the issue of which editions will offer a truly rigorous math education.

 

I wonder if she ever received an answer to her invective letter? I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't.

[kalanamak]

Yes, it seems we have been invades by the Saxons. :)

[wapiti]

Yes, it seems we have been invades by the Saxons. :)

 

I've often wondered, why don't "they" simply publish "their" own blog/webpage? It's off-putting, to say the least.

[Avila]

I've often wondered, why don't "they" simply publish "their" own blog/webpage? It's off-putting, to say the least.

 

"They" do, but they seem to get some kind of thrill out of coming here under aliases and asking questions they can answer under another name. One thread alone had this same guy as 4 different poster names. I guess they don't realize people here see through it and wonder about the sanity level involved. ;)

 

This board is supposed to be for homeschoolers and afterschoolers, or publishers who are honest about their identities. Dishonesty makes the whole product they are trying to promote look suspicious. Before this trolling started, I was set to buy his book and CDs for the fall, but now I need to rethink that one.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Asenik

[Brenda in FL]

"They" do, but they seem to get some kind of thrill out of coming here under aliases and asking questions they can answer under another name. One thread alone had this same guy as 4 different poster names. I guess they don't realize people here see through it and wonder about the sanity level involved. ;)

 

This board is supposed to be for homeschoolers and afterschoolers, or publishers who are honest about their identities. Dishonesty makes the whole product they are trying to promote look suspicious. Before this trolling started, I was set to buy his book and CDs for the fall, but now I need to rethink that one.

 

:iagree: - I reported this thread before reading further down to these posts! I agree that it is very off-putting. I can't believe he'd jeopardize what always seemed to me to be a very good reputation. Enough "known" people on these boards use his products and recommend him to others. I think he's shooting himself in the foot, so to say. I would never buy his materials now or recommend his materials to anyone.

[LibraryLover]

I wasn't born yesterday .

[Avila]

 

Your bad experience with math or Saxon math books does not necessarily mean that others will also walk down the same path if given correct information they perhaps will avoid the errors made by you.

 

But I would never ridicule your right to comment, however inaccurate.

 

Strangely enough, I haven't had a bad experience with Saxon math. :confused:

 

If you aren't Art Reed, then I apologize. But he was asked not to post for violating board rules, like not being honest about who he is. If you SELL something or publish something, you need to be honest about that here.

 

I am not ridiculing anybody, just commenting on the suspicious circumstances of poster with one post asking a Saxon question and somebody who sounds the same (and in other posts has determined to BE the same) jumping in to answer.

 

I am sure it is free enterprise, but be honest about who you are. I do have my name and general location on here, have over 1,000 posts and have met other boardies in person.

 

If you really are Art, if you just would have stuck with answering questions and been honest about who you are, you would have been fine. We have plenty of other authors, publishers, representatives on here who have never had a problem. They are honest and helpful, and their integrity sells their products for them.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Asenik

[Mimm]

Recently, Saxon has begun publishing separate editions of their textbooks specifically for homeschoolers with "dumbed down" material. My DH read an article about this several months ago. I'll see if I can track down that source.

 

EDIT: Here's the link - http://www.lewrockwell.com/taylor/taylor86.html

 

That blog post is full of just a bunch of rumors and inflammatory statements. It's a deplorable piece of writing.

 

EDIT: Sorry, didn't read the other replies. :)

[Spy Car]

It's actually Bill.

 

KIDDING!!!!

 

So glad I swallowed my mouthful of beer before reading your post. :lol: LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!

 

LOL :lol:

 

Gotta beer for me? :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

[wapiti]

I do have my own website where I publish a monthly newsletter for home school educators interested in learning about John Saxon’s math books. But I do not sell CD's. HMHCO and DIVE sell CD's.

 

My main reason for coming to this forum is to assist home school educators in the area of mathematics and I also attempt to answer questions or present correct information on this forum to assist homeschoolers who want to use Saxon math books. I never post derogatory statements about any math curriculum.

 

I have over twenty-five years experience with Saxon math books and I am simply attempting to correct erroneous statements made about them to the benefit of the home school educator making a decision.

 

You do not use your name and address, why am I supposed to as long as my information is accurate.

 

If you do not believe what I say, challenge me and I will defend my information with historical data, psychological research or professional teaching experiences - or - if you act unprofessional, I will simply ignore you.

 

Your bad experience with math or Saxon math books does not necessarily mean that others will also walk down the same path if given correct information they perhaps will avoid the errors made by you.

 

But I would never ridicule your right to comment, however inaccurate.

 

Holding oneself out as an anonymous "expert" might be perceived as a bit...oxymoronic, to say the least. (What does "unprofessional" mean, anyway, when it comes to homeschool moms and dads?) Moreover, starting new threads to answer questions posted elsewhere might be perceived as an attempt to draw particular attention to oneself - I don't mean this one, of course, because pretending to be a homeschool mom would be the lowest of the low. Now that would be creepy.

[Avila]

LOL :lol:

 

Gotta beer for me? :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

I think I need one after this. :D

 

Wait, where is Mrs. Mungo with the Mike's?

Edited May 31, 2011 by Asenik

[Avila]

Holding oneself out as an anonymous "expert" might be perceived as a bit...oxymoronic, to say the least. (What does "unprofessional" mean, anyway, when it comes to homeschool moms and dads?) Moreover, starting new threads to answer questions posted elsewhere might be perceived as an attempt to draw particular attention to oneself - I don't mean this one, of course, because pretending to be a homeschool mom would be the lowest of the low. Now that would be creepy.

 

If I was going to pretend, I would go with something a little more glamorous ...:001_smile:

[silliness7]

:confused::confused: I'm confused.

[wapiti]

ETA, never mind. Res ipsa loquitur.

Edited May 31, 2011 by wapiti

[Spy Car]

:confused::confused: I'm confused.

 

I think the situation is Art Reed is pretending not to be Art Reed, and the rest of us have been driven to drink :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

[Brenda in FL]

Holding oneself out as an anonymous "expert" might be perceived as a bit...oxymoronic, to say the least. (What does "unprofessional" mean, anyway, when it comes to homeschool moms and dads?) Moreover, starting new threads to answer questions posted elsewhere might be perceived as an attempt to draw particular attention to oneself - I don't mean this one, of course, because pretending to be a homeschool mom would be the lowest of the low. Now that would be creepy.

 

I pm-ed you.

[silliness7]

Here's a question-

 

Why are there recently many many posts by a person with 1 post only about Saxon.

 

I think Mr. Art Reed has nothing better to do.

 

Oh, I see. You're saying that Art Reed makes duplicate accounts and asks questions about Saxon and then jumps in again under a different account and answers his own question.

 

I don't understand why he would do that. There is usually enough chitter about Saxon that he could just jump in on those threads without having to pose as someone else and start a new thread.

 

I really love Saxon math and I've benefitted greatly from the free information on Art Reed's website. It's very nice of him to make that available to the public. I've not purchased his book. It would be a shame if he was being deceitful and breaking board rules. But isn't it nice to have such great authors among us? I've seen Andrew Kern on here and someone from Classical Academic Press. Of course, Susan. Not that we're on a 1st name basis. :D Maybe Art Reed should just put his name in a siggy and be done with it.

 

ETA: O.K. maybe I've resorted to stalking but I googled the name of the OP and someone with that same name is married to a man who is on the Old Schoolhouse Magazine's Speakers Bureau. So maybe that's not Art Reed.

 

...do you think he stole her identity? This just gets crazier by the second.

Edited May 31, 2011 by silliness7

[Koerarmoca]

:confused::confused: I'm confused.

me too ;)

 

I have several years of saxon (5/6 through Alg 1), I had no idea their was a difference between the hard books and soft cover books. We are doing 8/7 (soft cover) this year and I have alg 1/2 & alg 1 in hard cover is that an issue? (I got the hard cover ones at the local used bookstore)

 

I have nothing of importance to add to this thread but figured if a bunch of saxon folks are reading I could sneak in an unrelated question :lol:

[mamachanse]

I think the situation is Art Reed is pretending not to be Art Reed, and the rest of us have been driven to drink :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

:cheers2::cheers2::cheers2: :lol:

[Teachin'Mine]

me too ;)

 

I have several years of saxon (5/6 through Alg 1), I had no idea their was a difference between the hard books and soft cover books. We are doing 8/7 (soft cover) this year and I have alg 1/2 & alg 1 in hard cover is that an issue? (I got the hard cover ones at the local used bookstore)

 

I have nothing of importance to add to this thread but figured if a bunch of saxon folks are reading I could sneak in an unrelated question :lol:

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a Saxon person, nor do I play one in real life. :tongue_smilie:

 

As far as using the Saxon books - you're fine! 8/7 is only available in soft cover and algebra 1/2 and algebra 1 are only available in hardcover. :) I don't think real Saxon people would touch this thread with a 10 ft pole!!! :lol:

[LittleIzumi]

But I don't drink since I'm LDS! HELP!!!

 

*digs out root beer extract and dry ice*

 

There we go. Better now.

 

:cheers2:

[Margo out of lurking]

About buying or boycotting a person's product. I would think that intelligent people trying to educate their children would seek the best products on the market rather than attempting to analyze the author of the product.

 

That's your first mistake. Perhaps you should actually be a homeschooling parent. (And we don't "try," we "do.") If you were a valid member of this community, you might have noticed a thread in the past few days on this very subject.

 

We are not a group that needs to be "rescued" by someone promoting a product who cannot be transparent.

 

Yuck.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Many, many times. Here and the old board. :)

 

It would be awesome if you remembered enough of those older threads to find them in a search and share links.

 

I've been on the board since 2001, but either because I'm forgetful or just because I wasn't interested in such a thread the last time it came around, I don't remember the previous discussions.

 

There are always new board members who might not have been around the last time a topic came up, too.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I read the article you posted (when it was linked several weeks back). I'm sure that there are many people who have used the Art Reed materials with success. In fact many of them have posted here.

 

But I have to also keep in mind that if Mr. Reed isn't going to revise his product to go along with the 4th edition of the algebra books (with the 3rd geometry year), then he does risk a situation where his own product may become irrelevant.

 

I'm not suggesting that Mr. Reed has a nefarious motive. But I do think it's worth remembering that he's not just a neutral observer. He does actually have something at stake in which books remain the preferred choice of homeschoolers.

[silliness7]

There are always new board members who might not have been around the last time a topic came up, too.

 

That would be me.:blush::blush:

[silliness7]

I read the article you posted (when it was linked several weeks back). I'm sure that there are many people who have used the Art Reed materials with success. In fact many of them have posted here.

 

But I have to also keep in mind that if Mr. Reed isn't going to revise his product to go along with the 4th edition of the algebra books (with the 3rd geometry year), then he does risk a situation where his own product may become irrelevant.

 

I'm not suggesting that Mr. Reed has a nefarious motive. But I do think it's worth remembering that he's not just a neutral observer. He does actually have something at stake in which books remain the preferred choice of homeschoolers.

 

O.K. that does make sense. He also could be standing on principle that he believes the geometry should be integrated for best mathematical learning the same way, apparently John Saxon did and refuses to give in despite potential for lost profits. How hard would it be to revise his materials to correspond? Maybe it's more fun to drive the teetotalers (of which I am one...so that's not a slur) to drink. :D

 

I wonder if there is a truly neutral party who could weigh in on the issue ---to integrate geometry or to not?-----someone who is a mathematician/math teacher and someone who has experienced math both ways and someone who doesn't spew invective based on hearsay. (I really did not like the one woman's article....forget her name) Although, I personally will follow the schedule I've already laid out from the website. However, if my grandchildren happen to be homeschooled the integrated geometry might not even be an option for them unless I hang on to our old Saxon books. I don't really want to do that. :tongue_smilie: And my dc might not even care. :auto:

[Heather in WI]

It would be awesome if you remembered enough of those older threads to find them in a search and share links.

 

 

:confused: I tried searching and can't find much, other than, "Oh! That article was debunked a long time ago" type posts. Like here. The old boards used to come up on Google searches, but they no longer do. I'm assuming that because Linda's article came out in 2004 and the new boards started in 2008 that most of the discussion was on the old board. You're right. That's not too helpful for people didn't see the original posts. :tongue_smilie:

 

That would be me.:blush::blush:

 

I'm so sorry, Rebecca! I absolutely hate it when no one replies to a question I have and dismisses it as "oh, we've already discussed that." I've turned into that person! :tongue_smilie:

 

Please forgive me. :001_smile:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So, is this the fly in the soup? This particular individual who was "just visiting."

 

From the chronology of the posts, it appears I stepped in when misinformation was given out and I cannot find anywhere where I mentioned my name or that I was selling anything, etc.

 

Do you think the person asking the original question will return after you ridicule them for being associated with someone they never met?

 

Can no one who is just visiting ask a question? Would you have attacked her if it was about Joe Smuck's math books? Can only established followers ask questions about Saxon math books? And then only established followers can comment?

 

Would that not be akin to a form of in-breeding? No questions by infidel visitors - after all, they are suspicious are they not?

 

About buying or boycotting a person's product. I would think that intelligent people trying to educate their children would seek the best products on the market rather than attempting to analyze the author of the product.

 

It's like John Saxon once said "If you’re not going to use my books correctly, use someone else’s and blame them."

 

This is a huge forum, with many homeschoolers using many different products. Some use them as written, many of them tweak those products to better suit their individual family circumstances.

 

Some posts rave about a product, giving details about how it has worked well for their family. Others describe how something didn't serve their purposes.

 

It's not really about just ascribing to a product or choosing not to use it. (And I haven't noticed anyone suggesting boycotting Saxon math. I've used it for eight years and three kids.) The most helpful posts, imho, are those that describe how a product was used and describe the student a little. That helps me to determine if the criticism or laudatory comments would apply to us.

 

You might want to take a moment and read the board guidelines. One thing that posters here are sensitive to is when someone seems to be giving props to a product that they stand to gain by.

 

I really didn't see anyone ridiculing the OP. I did see a post that wondered why they'd been noticing a trend in posts by members with no other postings here.

 

Anyway, if you are a homeschooler, welcome to the forum. It's a great resource, though it can be a bit rough and tumble. (You should have been around for the "evil history books" thread or the long discussion on the appropriateness of certain ancient history texts for high schoolers.) If you'd like to add some details of your background (kids, what you use homeschooling) to a signature line, you can do that by clicking on the "User Control Panel" in the blue tool bar.

 

We were all new to the board at one time or another. We didn't all accuse other posters of excluding "infidel visitors" in our first dozen posts.

[Teachin'Mine]

We're holding onto our books. In hindsight I'm just wishing we hadn't used 6/5, 7/6 and 8/7 like a workbook. I figured it was easier for dd to do the work in the book. :tongue_smilie: One of the things I liked about Saxon is that the geometry is incorporated throughout the books. Honestly I don't see why the current publisher would stop publishing something as long as people want to buy it. I think they'll continue to offer both, but who knows.

[melmichigan]

We're holding onto our books. In hindsight I'm just wishing we hadn't used 6/5' date=' 7/6 and 8/7 like a workbook. I figured it was easier for dd to do the work in the book. :tongue_smilie: One of the things I liked about Saxon is that the geometry is incorporated throughout the books. Honestly I don't see why the current publisher would stop publishing something as long as people want to buy it. I think they'll continue to offer both, but who knows.[/quote']

 

Depending on what edition you are using you might be able to just buy the Written Practice workbook that coincide from the PS side of Saxon. For the ones I have looked at so far (not yet looked at 6/5) are the same problems in workbook format for PS kids to take home or write in since they can't write in the textbook in most instances. They run about $10, you can also find them on amazon and save a few pennies versus shipping from the publisher. I posted about it when I figured them out a few months ago. :) Can you tell I spent way to much time comparing the online books of both the PS and homeschool version before my DD started Saxon? :lol: