S/O If you are a person of color--Is "negro" offensive?

[Mimm]

that people on this board actually type out the "N" word. I understand that people are trying to make some type of point, but it is still painful to see.

 

And yet, another black person said once that he finds it offensive when people say "the N word" because he feels like they're assuming that black people are so hypersensitive and incapable of discerning intent that they'll just flip out if you say the actual word. Another example of not being able to not cause offense. I think we should just all cut each other a little slack here. If someone is genuinely trying to be sensitive and trying to understand cultural differences, why be offended if they inadvertently step on some toes? But maybe that's easy for me to say...

[Homemama2]

I'm always interested in these discussions--especially since the day my then 5 year old called a black piano classmate 'brown' and the boys mother came. un. done. Highly offended. When I tried to (sincerely) ask her why the term 'brown' was offensive, she looked at me like I must be the stupiest person on earth and asked me if I had ever heard of slavery. :001_huh:

 

Wow! That's good to know. I really never thought about this offending someone. The reason I say that is my boys' best friend is mixed race (black daddy, white mommy) and his mom (my good friend) calls her son's skin 'brown.' So we always have too. If my son is for some reason mentioning the color of a friend's skin he usually says either white or brown (which includes our hispanic, Indian, black etc friends.) In fact, during the summer, my skin is 'brown' too. :001_smile: For him, it's just a description, nothing to do whatsoever about race.

[Geek]

"Mom, where are all the brown kids?" She missed the variety! But again, she was just describing them, not labeling them.

Oh my goodness. My oldest son said the exact same thing when we moved here from Texas. In our old neighborhood we had quite the melting pot, which he saw as the way things are. Then we moved to an area of the country where there is still an awful lot of racial tension and lost the advantage of a diverse neighborhood where everyone's kids played with one another. Still makes me sad.

 

I would hope most people wouldn't find it offensive coming from a child. Ds is 6 and refers to people as "tan" and "clear" I don't quite understand where he came up with the "clear" but tan is totally a description for anyone with non-pale skin.

Oh, gosh that sounds like my son on the autism spectrum.

 

I get the most bothered when he refers to his own (white) race or skin tone as "normal". We talk and talk about this, but his verbal skills are very weak. I just know he is going to hurt someone's feelings one of these days, and it will be hard for others to excuse because he looks so "normal".

 

I use the word Black to describe ANYONE of African descent. When describing a person who is a descendant of Africans that were in ensalved in America, I feel the term African American is appropriate. This is more of a cultural description versus a racial description.

Okay, now you're talking. This is how I think of things. I do have friends, though, who insist they are black, and others who prefer the term African American.

 

When meeting someone new and it comes up in conversation, I just shrug and ask them what they prefer, and I apologize in advance in case I screw it up in future conversation. They usually just laugh and we move on.

[UmmiSays]

And yet, another black person said once that he finds it offensive when people say "the N word" because he feels like they're assuming that black people are so hypersensitive and incapable of discerning intent that they'll just flip out if you say the actual word. Another example of not being able to not cause offense. I think we should just all cut each other a little slack here. If someone is genuinely trying to be sensitive and trying to understand cultural differences, why be offended if they inadvertently step on some toes? But maybe that's easy for me to say...

 

This word has an absolutely horrific connection to it. It is not necessary to use it at all. The brilliance of wisdom that I see on these boards does not allow me understand what is the purpose of even typing it out. One could say something like,"racially derogatory word to describe Black people". To me to use this word is a sign of a lazy mind and weak vocabulary.

[LAS in LA]

I think that's why "person of color" was popular for a time a few years back. It didn't really stick, though. ETA: This was a quote from another post-er.

 

A tour guide at one of the local plantations told us that "person of color" was an 1800s social class term for non-white plantation owners (if I remember correctly). These owners could be black, mixed race or perhaps Spanish background. Who knew?

Edited April 30, 2011 by LAS in LA

[Ibbygirl]

I think that's why "person of color" was popular for a time a few years back. It didn't really stick, though.

 

That's interesting. My husband is from the Caribbean and his is mixed race... not all black, not all Indian, not all white he's just a healthy mix of the three and not all just one thing. His mother used to refer to that as "people of color" (in Spanish) as someone like them who were basically not white skinned. My husband too when he talks about anyone who is some shade of brown to black (not white) he refers to them as "un mi color" "someone my color". I guess it caught on in the Dominican Republic anyway. :)

[Capt_Uhura]

I'm always interested in these discussions--especially since the day my then 5 year old called a black piano classmate 'brown' and the boys mother came. un. done. Highly offended. When I tried to (sincerely) ask her why the term 'brown' was offensive, she looked at me like I must be the stupiest person on earth and asked me if I had ever heard of slavery. :001_huh:

 

I'm sorry that happened to you. THat woman obviously has a huge block on her shoulder. My son's classmate asked him why his mom is brown (my son isn't brown). I just laughed. I thought it was so cute. My son replied, "I don't know. She just is and always has been brown." They were 4.5yrs old at the time. :lol:

 

When he was 2.5-3yrs old he said that he tastes like vanilla and I taste like chocolate! :D

 

I don't find "negro" offensive...outdated, but not offensive. I don't use the word "nigger" but family members down south do use it in normal conversation. I should ask if they still do....they did 15yrs ago when I lived at home.

 

Example:

"Hey cuz, do you want to go sky diving with me?"

"Nigga please, you wouldn't catch me jumping out of a perfectly good airplane."

Edited April 30, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[akmommy]

Originally Posted by Apryl H

A spin off question:

 

Is it offensive to refer to a mixed race person as mixed? My dh seems to think it is, but I'm (we have several friends at church in mixed race marriages with mixed race kids) I'm too chicken to ask them.

 

 

I went to school with a girl who described herself as Oreo. I would never refer to someone of mixed race that way, but i thought that it was cool that she was confident and comfortable with who she was, especially in a community and school that was anything but diverse at that time. I think she must have had some awesome parents.

Edited April 30, 2011 by akmommy

[YourFidgetyFriend]

I went to school with a girl who described herself as Oreo. I would never refer to someone of mixed race that way, but i thought that it was cool that she was confident and comfortable with who she was, especially in a community and school that was anything but diverse at that time. I think she must have had some awesome parents.

 

Where I'm from Oreo means "black on the outside, white on the inside" which brings up a boatload of stereotypes.

 

Otherwise I could totally see the appeal of identifying with that crispy chocolatey goodness with creamy vanilla filling. Just saying :D

[JustGin]

I understand where you're coming from, but your kids will be seen as something separate than raised in a white household once they're away from you. It might be helpful for them to understand what assumptions others might have about them. I really like this book; I think it's a sensitive look at some tough issues, including dealing with our own discomfort:

 

Does Anybody Else Look Like Me?: A Parent's Guide To Raising Multiracial Children by Donna Jackson Nakazawa

 

I appreciate your thoughts and I agree that it's important not to raise my kids in a bubble. I'd feel that way regardless of their skin tone. Rest assured that we have had many many conversations about these issues, about other's peoples perceptions and cultural expectations, about race and prejudice, past and present and on and on. I'm actually quite comfortable about the subject and so far my kids are as well. Thank you for the book recommendation.

[Lovedtodeath]

I find it outdated and unnecessary to use the term Negro in everday conversation. I find it ok to use as a historical desription.

 

I use the word Black to describe ANYONE of African descent. When describing a person who is a descendant of Africans that were in enslaved in America, I feel the term African American is appropriate. This is more of a cultural description versus a racial description.

If this definition is used the president is not African American. I thought everyone was ignoring that, but I found an article that says "not black enough". I just hate that race is still such an issue.

 

Having read quite a bit about the history of the Negroid race (for example Pharaohs), I find it odd that the term is used in that context, but not in others.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

I found this interesting:

There are three races of man Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and Negroid.

Wikipedia:

Mongol, a people who are considered one of its main proto-populations. Today, the term is regarded by some as potentially offensive.

 

So Mongol and Negro both seem to be potentially offensive.

[Capt_Uhura]

Where I'm from Oreo means "black on the outside, white on the inside" which brings up a boatload of stereotypes.

 

 

:iagree:

[Matryoshka]

When describing a person who is a descendant of Africans that were in enslaved in America, I feel the term African American is appropriate. This is more of a cultural description versus a racial description.

If this definition is used the president is not African American.

If someone is of recent African descent, then one does not have to use the entire continent as their heritage (unless they want to) - it is a diverse place. I'd think of the president as Kenyan-American (on his father's side). I have friends who are Ethiopian-American, and another friend who is South African-American - but in his case if you went one generation back, or included his most recent country of citizenship and not just his country of birth - British-South African-Canadian-American. :tongue_smilie:

 

In this country, virtually all of us are mutts after one generation. Most African-Americans also have European descent - while in the long course of history it's completely understandable that they would not want to identify with that part of their genetic makeup, more recent generations of mixed-race, like our president and Tiger Woods, do not have the same feeling of wanting to deny or obscure half (or more) of their heritage. I think it's fine for people to choose that part that they most identify with culturally, rather than using it as a detailed record of every individual in their gene pool.

 

Did anyone see the PBS special where Henry Louis Gates Jr. sequenced the genes of a bunch of African-American celebrities in order to determine which African tribal group they descended from? This method can determine your entire matrilineal descent (mother's mother's mother etc.) through mitochondrial DNA, or patrilineal descent (father's father's father etc.) through Y-chromosome DNA. On both sides, he had only European ancestry - apparently the African ancestors all branched off into mother's father or father's mother at some point. He ended up going back to Ireland to trace his heritage... I think he still identifies as African-American. ;)

[Impish]

Where I'm from Oreo means "black on the outside, white on the inside" which brings up a boatload of stereotypes.

 

Otherwise I could totally see the appeal of identifying with that crispy chocolatey goodness with creamy vanilla filling. Just saying :D

Yeah, here its not good either.

 

Wolf's also been called an 'apple' by members of his birth family. Red on the outside, white inside.

[Poke Salad Annie]

Last night I (finally!) finished reading The Help by Kathryn Stockett. Wonderful book, but absolutely tears at your heart. To me, the secret stories Aibileen shared with Mae Mobley were golden. If you have the time and can find a copy of this book, I highly recommend reading it. This book will change you in some way.

 

I know this doesn't answer the OP's post, but I wanted to share.

[Amirah]

im black and i am from the southern US. i consider my self black. being from the south i find the term negro offensive and the only ppl i ever heard use this were racist. no one i have ever met with good intentions uses the word negro. it may just be a southern thing not really sure. now if your reading a book or whatever and its in there thats something different but in general conversation no

 

oreo where im from means black on the outside and white on the inside. i got called that alot and it has alot of stereotypes that go with it.

 

my husband is Algerian which is africa. and my son is both black and african and born in canada so he is canadian. so we dont really know what to call him lol.

 

also i think its important to learn about where countries are as well because i read there was some misunderstanding about pakistan. not all muslims are arab. alot of countries in africa are muslim and they are not considered arab(egypt, tunisia, libya, algeria, morroco, somailia etc.) pakistan is south asia

[TheAutumnOak]

I could swear that the people I've been around say "black". I actually don't understand "African American" unless they are kinda.... directly from Africa. Although... my husband could kinda be called "African American".... as he was born in Africa and then was brought back to America.

And what if a person who is White from Africa is here; are they "African American"? I mean... they are... but.... that would put the "wrong picture" in your mind... kinda like if I said my husband is/was and then you saw him.

 

 

 

I simply say that I am Black...I know people who were born in Africa or their parents were, they consider themselves African American...I also know people who are Black, but are decendants of slaves here in this country who also consider themselves African American because that is where their family line is from originally...It is kind of like this - My DH was born in Puerto Rico, so he is a Puerto Rican...There are many people here who are also considered Puerto Rican but they were born here, their family line is just from there...

 

The problem with using African American as a catch all phrase is that lots of Black people here are from Haiti, Jamaica, the Islands, etc. and they are not African American...I just use the term Black...

 

To answer the OP question, no I wouldn't be offened by Negro, it is just outdated...It does remind me of the past and times of segregation, and I would think the person using the term is either older or doesn't live around Black people...But I wouldn't think the person was trying to be offensive to me...

 

All of this makes me think, at what point do you just become an American?...Maybe you are only just considered an American in another country :tongue_smilie:

[TheAutumnOak]

no one i have ever met with good intentions uses the word negro. it may just be a southern thing not really sure. now if your reading a book or whatever and its in there thats something different but in general conversation no

 

 

 

I just said I wouldn't be offended, but this is true though...

[pfamilygal]

Slightly off topic, but my MIL brought my daughter a doll from Mexico a couple years ago. It was a lovely little doll and unbeknownst to me, Abigail named it Little Brown Mexican, because the doll was little, brown and from Mexico. To my horror (we do live in Texas, after all) I heard her shouting in the backyard, "Little Brown Mexican! Where are you? Come out, Little Brown Mexican, you didn't do your chores yet, so you cannot play!"

 

We renamed the doll Maria.

 

I am a pasty white person, but most of my Black friends prefer Black. My African friends prefer to be called Kenyan, Congolese, etc.

Edited April 30, 2011 by pfamilygal

[stripe]

Did anyone see the PBS special where Henry Louis Gates Jr. sequenced the genes of a bunch of African-American celebrities in order to determine which African tribal group they descended from?.... On both sides, he had only European ancestry - apparently the African ancestors all branched off into mother's father or father's mother at some point. He ended up going back to Ireland to trace his heritage... I think he still identifies as African-American. ;)

He knew he had a lot of European ancestry before this was done, though. His father and aunt are both extremely light skinned, and there was family lore about a relative who had been enslaved who had a relationship with a white man (slave owner?) who fathered her children -- he tries to figure out what happened in the show. (Summary of this here)

 

Part of the reason he identifies as African-American is because a) of his appearance, b) it's the culture he was raised in, and c) (he made this joke) he is a professor of African American studies.

 

I am not sure that Bliss Broyard (link given earlier), however, sees herself as an African American woman considering a) she found out as an adult, b) she was raised as white by parents who claimed to be white, and c) she has light skin and straight hair. The book about her father is quite interesting, and she herself has a contentious relationship with Gates.

Edited April 30, 2011 by stripe

[lovelaughs_times_three]

from other post! I can't figure out how to do those cool boxes you all do when you are pulling a quote from another post!:tongue_smilie:

Slightly off topic, but my MIL brought my daughter a doll from Mexico a couple years ago. It was a lovely little doll and unbeknownst to me, Abigail named it Little Brown Mexican, because the doll was little, brown and from Mexico. To my horror (we do live in Texas, after all) I heard her shouting in the backyard, "Little Brown Mexican! Where are you? Come out, Little Brown Mexican, you didn't do your chores yet, so you cannot play!"

 

 

So funny!!! Kids and their wonderful innocence! I wish we could all be so innocent!

Edited April 30, 2011 by lovelaughs_times_three

[justamouse]

 

 

Did anyone see the PBS special where Henry Louis Gates Jr. sequenced the genes of a bunch of African-American celebrities in order to determine which African tribal group they descended from? This method can determine your entire matrilineal descent (mother's mother's mother etc.) through mitochondrial DNA, or patrilineal descent (father's father's father etc.) through Y-chromosome DNA. On both sides, he had only European ancestry - apparently the African ancestors all branched off into mother's father or father's mother at some point. He ended up going back to Ireland to trace his heritage... I think he still identifies as African-American. ;)

 

Now Gates has another one -Black in Latin America which is amazing. He did one episode in Brazil and if you think WE are confused, you ought to check out that episode.

 

It was especially interesting to me because I have African on my Brazilian side but I have light olive skin and tan really well. *g* I have to check off the 'White' box.

 

I love his shows. Love them.

[stripe]

Oh, thanks! I didn't know about that one! I will be watching it.

 

I find him very irritating but interesting nonetheless.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yeah, here its not good either.

 

Wolf's also been called an 'apple' by members of his birth family. Red on the outside, white inside.

 

Filipinos call this being a "coconut" - brown on the outside, white inside. But it doesn't seem to be as much of an insult with them. Most of the people I know grin and say it about themselves.

[Mejane]

Dh's maternal grandfather was born in Tunisia to Greek and Italian parents who then migrated to the US. Would that make him an African-American?

 

With all the migrating that goes on, and has gone on throughout history, I think it's impossible to precisely define anyone. As much as I find it interesting, I wonder why we feel the need to continue to try.

[Impish]

Filipinos call this being a "coconut" - brown on the outside, white inside. But it doesn't seem to be as much of an insult with them. Most of the people I know grin and say it about themselves.

In Wolf's birth family, its a major insult. The fact that he married me was a huge issue for many. Gee, wonder why he doesn't bother with the majority of them? :glare:

[Jean in Newcastle]

In Wolf's birth family, its a major insult. The fact that he married me was a huge issue for many. Gee, wonder why he doesn't bother with the majority of them? :glare:

 

Because of the history of WWII, it was a much bigger deal that I was born in Japan. But that just highlights the role that history plays in these kinds of things. In the Philippines, (mostly) white Americans were seen as the saviors who came in to rescue them from bondage and war. In these other cultures, white Americans or Canadians were seen as the oppressors.

[Impish]

Because of the history of WWII, it was a much bigger deal that I was born in Japan. But that just highlights the role that history plays in these kinds of things. In the Philippines, (mostly) white Americans were seen as the saviors who came in to rescue them from bondage and war. In these other cultures, white Americans or Canadians were seen as the oppressors.

Yup, I know.

 

The basis of Wolf being called an apple seemed to be that he was gainfully employed, worked hard, and showed up places when he said he would. He said that there's a resentment of success in his birth family...anyone that strives to acheive is labelled 'apple', and treated like crud. Instead of being glad of someone's success, its viewed as, "Oh, they think they're BETTER..." Its both sad and hurtful. Nobody should ever strive for more than what the other has, everyone should stay at the same level. It even plays out with their kids! "Well, its good enough for ME, why shouldn't it be for them?" Wolf was blown away by that...he thought it was normal for parents to want better for their kids, always.

 

The ironic thing is that with my heritage, I'm considered (by some) to be of a 'lost tribe'. The Beothuk were wiped out, and that's where my g-gpa's mom is from. When some of Wolf's family found that out, well! All of a sudden I was acceptable. *eyeroll*

[JustGin]

Yup, I know.

 

The basis of Wolf being called an apple seemed to be that he was gainfully employed, worked hard, and showed up places when he said he would. He said that there's a resentment of success in his birth family...anyone that strives to acheive is labelled 'apple', and treated like crud. Instead of being glad of someone's success, its viewed as, "Oh, they think they're BETTER..." Its both sad and hurtful. Nobody should ever strive for more than what the other has, everyone should stay at the same level. It even plays out with their kids! "Well, its good enough for ME, why shouldn't it be for them?" Wolf was blown away by that...he thought it was normal for parents to want better for their kids, always.

 

The ironic thing is that with my heritage, I'm considered (by some) to be of a 'lost tribe'. The Beothuk were wiped out, and that's where my g-gpa's mom is from. When some of Wolf's family found that out, well! All of a sudden I was acceptable. *eyeroll*

 

Interesting thing about this: I believe it happens where ever the predominate culture is shaped by poverty, regardless of race. I've experienced this personally. I grew up dirt-poor and still have family members who resent my "success" by which they mean, we (dh and I) have always had work income and not ever been on public assistance.

I have never, ever looked down on them for getting assistance or having income trouble, or anything else related to poverty, and we came very close to getting some help with food stamps last year, so I'm not "above" that at all nor do I think it a badge of shame, but none of that matters. We are guilty by default of having risen above them, in their eyes. :(

[Lovedtodeath]

The thing is, technically, (scientifically) if the term Negro or Negroid is used it is the same as Caucasoid or Caucasian and then we avoid calling people from Jamaica or Haiti "African American". I have always thought that it was more correct. But obviously a derogatory word was made out of it, so we don't like to be reminded of it. Interestingly enough, according to the site below, some "black" people are scientifically Caucasian.

 

Now Gates has another one -Black in Latin America

I found this interesting on that subject. http://racialreality.110mb.com/hispanics.html though I thought some of the terms they use on the site aren't considered very nice. :001_huh:

 

Interesting thing about this: I believe it happens where ever the predominate culture is shaped by poverty, regardless of race. I've experienced this personally. I grew up dirt-poor and still have family members who resent my "success" by which they mean, we (dh and I) have always had work income and not ever been on public assistance.

I have never, ever looked down on them for getting assistance or having income trouble, or anything else related to poverty, and we came very close to getting some help with food stamps last year, so I'm not "above" that at all nor do I think it a badge of shame, but none of that matters. We are guilty by default of having risen above them, in their eyes. :(

:iagree:Us too.

 

Someone said "At what point do you become just American"? I completely agree. Some of us can't even trace our heritage. We are adopted by one or both parents. It can be hurtful when people make it such a big deal to know "what blood" everyone has. :(

[Julie in CA]

To me to use this word is a sign of a lazy mind and weak vocabulary.

One could also argue that a knee-jerk reaction to one single word that is, in this context, *clearly* used in a *non-derogatory way* could also be viewed as someone who's mind could use a little more exercise.

 

The entire point of the original post was to gain clarity about if a non-offensive reference even exists. Clearly it does not. There will always be those who choose to be offended, even when there was no offense intended, as was obvious from the way in which the word was used in this thread.

[Hillary in KS]

Ask her about brown. Is brown offensive?

 

She says she uses the phrase "brown people," but when referring to ALL people with darker skin tones, not just African-Americans.

[Rosie_0801]

All of this makes me think, at what point do you just become an American?...Maybe you are only just considered an American in another country :tongue_smilie:

 

That's what it looks like to me!

 

:)

Rosie

[Lovedtodeath]

That's what it looks like to me!

Unless you are black, in which case you are sometimes called African-American even if you never were American.

[Rosie_0801]

Unless you are black, in which case you are sometimes called African-American even if you never were American.

 

 

I meant that even if you consider yourself a Polish-Czech-Swedish-Chechnyan--Sinhala-Japanese-Maori-Sudanese-!Kung-Cherokee, the rest of us outside of the US think of you as American.

 

Presumptuous of us, I know.

 

:)

Rosie

[pqr]

I meant that even if you consider yourself a Polish-Czech-Swedish-Chechnyan--Sinhala-Japanese-Maori-Sudanese-!Kung-Cherokee, the rest of us outside of the US think of you as American.

 

 

 

Of course President T. Roosevelt agreed with you. When speaking to the Kinghts of Columbus he said...

 

"There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all... The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic... There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else."

 

I find that overseas I am seen as an American nothing else and I could not ask for more as that is the only thing I ever desire to be seen as.

[Brindee]

My now eight year old was so confused when Obama ran for president. He asked me over and over, "Why do the keep calling him black? He's brown."

 

I was so mad at the media about that. I felt like my ds lost his innocence as far as judging people by their race.

 

Aha !!!! See!!! My son is not the only one.

 

I was raised in an all white county. By a godly mother who taught us our skin color doesn't define us any more than blonde or brunette define us. So what do I know.

When my brother was little they lived in an area with mostly white people, as well. When he was 2ish (and still learning his colors, apparently :tongue_smilie:) my mom and he were in line after shopping when a black man came in line behind them. Never having seen one, my brother stared at him for awhile, then LOUDLY (of course!) said, "Mommy, look at that funny green man!" :lol: My mom was so embarrassed, but the guy was really nice and knelt down and talked with my brother.

 

So, I wonder if they mind being called green? :001_huh: This guy didn't seem to! ;)

 

Me? I think I am also the sickly yellow color others have mentioned that they are, and I have freckles, with "dishwater blonde" hair. Lovely, no? :D

Edited April 30, 2011 by Brindee

[Crissy]

Aha !!!! See!!! My son is not the only one.

 

 

 

I have always assumed this is how children see the world.

When I was pregnant in '98 my older son (5yo at the time) told me he *really* hoped we'd have a brown baby. When I tried to explain that we're not brown, so our baby won't be either, he pointed out that his friend's mom is peach, while his friend is brown, so maybe...

:)

[Rosie_0801]

Of course President T. Roosevelt agreed with you.

 

Uh, I think he took it a bit further than I'm willing to. :tongue_smilie:

 

Rosie