If you were a Christian, and then stopped being a Christian how old were you?

[Lovedtodeath]

How is this any less insulting than a Christian assuming that you didn't learn the right things?

 

There is an "if" followed by a qualifier and a "to me." No generalizations or absolute proclamations.

 

Thanks for replying. I think that a lot of posts by Christians don't have generalizations or absolute proclamations either. They just say that many people have found that the Bible didn't make any sense in their original denomination but it does make sense in light of _______.

[susankenny]

Can I use scientific, rational thinking to justify a belief in God? I cannot put rationality aside, and I cannot believe in a god using rational thinking. The two (rational thinking and faith) are incompatible in my view.

 

I think you can believe in a Creator & Science. They do not have to be mutually exclusive. A person can believe in both.

 

 

Susan

[Joanne]

We all know that Christians are reading this thread. The OP is a Christian and there are several of us that have offered up our stories of when we left the faith or switched.How is this any less insulting than a Christian assuming that you didn't learn the right things?

 

Not to pick on on the person quoted (it is everywhere), so I took out the name...

 

The thread is about leaving Christianity. The content is appropriate and expected.

 

There *are* outrageous claims and historical events that, if you believe the Christian bible, require suspense of disbelief.

[nmoira]

 

Well, it does seem to break the board rule about 'Do not use inquiries as an excuse to proselytize.'

That's proselytizing? If so, then a huge number of threads here contain proselytizing for one thing or another. Sorry, I just don't see it.

[Jennifer3141]

I think you can believe in a Creator & Science. They do not have to be mutually exclusive. A person can believe in both.

 

 

Susan, I agree with you. I don't know how people do that but it's not my issue so I don't sweat it.

[Lovedtodeath]

That was my quote. I'm sorry if you find it insulting. I really am. But how is it not true? Can I use scientific, rational thinking to justify a belief in God? I cannot put rationality aside, and I cannot believe in a god using rational thinking. The two (rational thinking and faith) are incompatible in my view.

 

A Christian assuming I didn't learn the right things is still asking me to put aside critical thinking in order to learn those "right things". I cannot.

Thanks. No hard feelings. I am not really insulted, because I have felt the exact same way. I just was comparing the two types of posts.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Lady Florida.]

I think you can believe in a Creator & Science. They do not have to be mutually exclusive. A person can believe in both.

 

 

Susan

 

Yes, some people can and many people do. However, you cannot use scientific thinking or the scientific method to justify belief. That was what I was trying to say.

[Carrie12345]

So we should just eat, and drink, and rut, and never concern ourselves with the moral or the philosophical?

 

Sigh. If only! :D

[Lovedtodeath]

The thread is about leaving Christianity. The content is appropriate and expected.

 

There *are* outrageous claims and historical events that, if you believe the Christian bible, require suspense of disbelief.

I think that the suspension of disbelief is required in some matters of science as well. The statistics are astronomically against some things ever occurring. The physical laws would have to be different at some point for some findings or some theories to make any sense. I am not picking on anything specific here... but well, we just don't completely understand everything.

 

Much of the science that backs the Bible is difficult to locate. It is in scientific journals but it is along with all of the others that are actually published more broadly. It is in the museum's storage and not on display. I have had to put a lot of effort into learning about science and the Bible to see that they really aren't contradicting each other. I had to start with YE science and end with evolution and look at what the Bible said not what people think it says) all along. This is a totally different topic so I am done with it. ;)

Edited March 31, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[nmoira]

Sigh. If only! :D

:lol:

You do have a point.

[Wheres Toto]

I think you can believe in a Creator & Science. They do not have to be mutually exclusive. A person can believe in both.

 

 

Susan

 

I find I can believe in a Creator and Science but not in a literal interpretation of Creation (among other things) as described in the Bible and widely accepted Science.

 

The more I learned about the history behind the Bible, the contradictions, the stories that match older myths and what some people felt made an acceptable Christian - the less I could count myself as one. I don't know that I ever truly believed - it was more going through the motions.

 

Edited to add: As for the original question - I was in my early 30's. It may have happened sooner but I always attended a fairly liberal, laid-back church so there was no real crisis point. After the internet, I was able to learn more, see more and I got a completely different idea about Christianity.

Edited March 31, 2011 by dottieanna29

[susankenny]

Absolutely. I totally agree with you. Christianity requires faith & cannot rely on human understanding alone.

 

Susan

[susankenny]

Yes, some people can and many people do. However, you cannot use scientific thinking or the scientific method to justify belief. That was what I was trying to say.

 

 

Okay, gotcha.:)

[lionfamily1999]

Christians, Bible believing, followers of Christ should not treat others that way.

 

Whether you believe in nothing or something, Christians should not treat you badly. So, this was my attempt to say that sometimes *Christianity* the 'religion' and *Christians* devout followers of Christ do not match up.

We can judge each other's actions, but judging each other's hearts is pretty well off limits. Christians are not Christ. They are humans, struggling and being changed, but by the time that perfection of spirit is reached they aren't here anymore to show it off ;)

 

You questioning the Christianity of Christians that have done the same thing pretty well dumps you to their level, ya think?

I think that the suspension of disbelief is required in some matters of science as well.

:iagree: The idea that you have to suspend disbelief, or that there is no rational reason for it are things that often step on the toes of Christians (and other religious believers). It implies that science is infallible and paramount, that God or religion must bow down infront of scientific supremecy. I believe in Christ, I believe in God. Science is a nice man made construct to try and figure out life, but I cannot imagine putting man's experiments and man's findings and man's theories infront of God's word. So, from the other perspective, from the Christian perspective, relying on men to tell us what reality is requires a huge suspension of the belief that men are imperfect, subject to their own whims, and imperfect ;) Putting science and men above God is ..... well just plain silly.

[FaithManor]

This thread has been derailed. The OP did not ask anyone to debate the issue. She asked specifically for the stories of those that left Christianity. Because I did this at one point in my life after having once defined myself as Christian, I posted as did a few others who have since changed their minds, plus others willing to put their necks out there about their own journeys from faith to either a conversion to another religion or no religion...a brave thing to do on this board. But, in no way, were Christians supposed to come on here and debate other posters stories or theology, or science and religion, validity, etc.

 

The OP was only seeking to understand non-Christians better and specifically those that once would have belonged to the Christian faith - not up for debate about how that is defined, completely up to the individual - and had a time of questioning, crisis, whatever, and no longer believe, period.

 

Let's dump the debate, the attempt to "figure it out", and let the thread go back to the OP's original intent...her desire to better understand this process from those that have experienced it.

 

I am not trying to be snarky here. It's just that this has morphed into something that isn't helping the OP and probably discouraging some from posting their stories even if they'd really like to share.

 

Respectfully to all my boardie friends - I don't care what your belief system is - you are all special people,

Faith

[kiana]

That's proselytizing? If so, then a huge number of threads here contain proselytizing for one thing or another. Sorry, I just don't see it.

 

I think you misunderstood me -- the entire quote, in context, says "Don't use inquiries as an excuse to proselytize for anything. Answer questions that are posted but don't use these questions as an excuse to springboard into criticism. For example: If someone asks, "What are your kids dressing up as for Halloween?" don't launch into an explanation of how evil Halloween is. If someone asks, "Is Halloween evil?" have a ball."

 

Using a thread about leaving Christianity to post about why you think that people who left Christianity were never really Christian in the first place seems to be 'springboarding into criticism', simply imho.

[BlsdMama]

ETA - some people might want to know why I want to know. I was simply thinking about how my own thinking has changed over the years - sometimes dramatically - and wondered when a dramatic change like this might occur in people's lives.

 

Quoting so I try to stay on track and as Jean was the OP. ;) But, well, on track is hard for me so I'll just try not to insult anyone. :grouphug:

 

 

When I was 21, I tossed out the concept of sin and ****ation. I left the church. I joined AA and found more love, genuineness and acceptance there than I ever had in any church. I came back to the faith slowly. I am now a conservative, Bible believing, accepting, loving follower of Jesus. I call myself a Christian. My beef was really not ever with God - it was with men...and therefore, churches who were run by men. I still have a beef with a lot of it.

 

Because I think it's relevant to the discussion.

 

While certainly I want to avoid grouping people together and just plastering a quick and easy label on it all, this is relevant.

 

Often people who are/were/claimed to be Believers turn because PEOPLE let them down. They were failed when they asked hard questions, they were failed when they asked for help, they were failed. Is it the fault of the people who were asked for help? Maybe.

 

But I think so often we forget that at the end of the day Christians are fallible human beings, with temptations and troubles.

 

Most of my problems with the Christian religion is the people, not the Jesus. I read what HE says and we very rarely attend Church as my husband is a believer in God but in the Christian people he has little faith. Hypocrisy is something he deeply resents and frankly, humans being humans, I think we're all a little hypocritical to some extent aren't we? There is that which we WANT to be, strive to be, and yet fall short. How do we hold others to a higher standards than ourselves. I WANT to be not tempted to get on the board and read it at 10:29 in the AM when I know I ought to be reviewing grammar with my 6th grader... If someone asked me the best way to operate, I'd tell 'em, "Shut off the computer early in the AM and don't turn it back on 'til the designated time." That would kind of make me a hypocrite, wouldn't it?

 

I think the most dramatic changes come when there is a period of contemplation over one's life and unsatisfactory answers to the questions that have resulted...

 

It would be curious to post the flip side question - for those who did not sincerely believe and then DID, when did that age occur? I wonder if they would be similar?

[lionfamily1999]

This thread has been derailed. The OP did not ask anyone to debate the issue. She asked specifically for the stories of those that left Christianity. Because I did this at one point in my life after having once defined myself as Christian, I posted as did a few others who have since changed their minds, plus others willing to put their necks out there about their own journeys from faith to either a conversion to another religion or no religion...a brave thing to do on this board. But, in no way, were Christians supposed to come on here and debate other posters stories or theology, or science and religion, validity, etc.

 

The OP was only seeking to understand non-Christians better and specifically those that once would have belonged to the Christian faith - not up for debate about how that is defined, completely up to the individual - and had a time of questioning, crisis, whatever, and no longer believe, period.

 

I'm specifically interested in people who considered themselves an actual Christian, not just undecided. Poll to follow.

 

(While I personally believe a doctrine called eternal security, I am not invoking that for this poll because I want what people think about their own experience.)

 

ETA - some people might want to know why I want to know. I was simply thinking about how my own thinking has changed over the years - sometimes dramatically - and wondered when a dramatic change like this might occur in people's lives.

The OP was interested in how people's thinking changes and wanted to know when those changes were likely to occur

 

Let's dump the debate, the attempt to "figure it out", and let the thread go back to the OP's original intent...her desire to better understand this process from those that have experienced it.

 

I am not trying to be snarky here. It's just that this has morphed into something that isn't helping the OP and probably discouraging some from posting their stories even if they'd really like to share.

 

Respectfully to all my boardie friends - I don't care what your belief system is - you are all special people,

Faith

I posted my story on here (see below). I also answered two things that had struck me. Perhaps it doesn't matter at all, but there are Christians that stopped being Christians that became Christians again ;) One itty bitty thing that could raise hackles, and yes I finally answered to it, is the idea that one must suspend knowledge or reality or disbelief in order to be Christian. I know that has nothing to do with this, but........ wait, that means it didn't really need to be mentioned at all?!? As a Christian that was not and then was again, it's not like I took dummy pills and yes I felt the need to defend myself. As to the other issue, I'm sick and stinkin tired of reading about Christians questions other Christians Christianity and you're darn tootin' that I'm going to say something. I have had ENOUGH of it. ENOUGH. You want to say they're wrong here or there, fine, but to equate that with a loss or lack of salvation... I am done sitting still while someone does that.

 

So, hey debate or no, I have a right to defend my opinions and beliefs. I'm not an idiot fresh off the boat that thinks the roads run with milk and honey and my belief in God does not require blinders. You want to question a Christian's salvation because you think they read Genesis wrong and I'm not going to let that go by smoothly.

Jean, I stopped, but started again... I voted for when I had stopped.

[nmoira]

I think you misunderstood me -- the entire quote, in context, says "Don't use inquiries as an excuse to proselytize for anything. Answer questions that are posted but don't use these questions as an excuse to springboard into criticism. For example: If someone asks, "What are your kids dressing up as for Halloween?" don't launch into an explanation of how evil Halloween is. If someone asks, "Is Halloween evil?" have a ball."

 

Using a thread about leaving Christianity to post about why you think that people who left Christianity were never really Christian in the first place seems to be 'springboarding into criticism', simply imho.

Gotcha, and you're right... I misread you.

[Lovedtodeath]

Gotcha, and you're right... I misread you.

Me too. I am glad for the clarification.

 

You want to say they're wrong here or there, fine, but to equate that with a loss or lack of salvation... I am done sitting still while someone does that.

 

So, hey debate or no, I have a right to defend my opinions and beliefs. I'm not an idiot fresh off the boat that thinks the roads run with milk and honey and my belief in God does not require blinders.

:001_wub: I have grown so much since you have been my friend. You are wonderful. Edited March 31, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Lady Florida.]

I initially posted the age I was when I stopped believing and a brief explanation as to why it happened at that age. My involvement in this thread might have ended there.

 

I was over 40. Perhaps it would have happened sooner if I had started questioning sooner.

 

 

It was not until people (yes, Christians) started questioning whether those of us who stopped believing were ever true Christians, and telling us how we should just have faith or have a relationship with Jesus, that I expanded on what I believe or don't, and why.

 

It's really not a choice. You either believe or you don't. I don't know any atheists (who once believed) who said "I'm not going to believe in God anymore", but I know plenty who said, "I just can't believe in God anymore".

 

 

I disagree with this but I do understand where it's coming from. On the other end, I don't think a TRUE atheist can start believing in the supernatural (either again or for the first time), but there are those who say that's exactly what they did.

[Wheres Toto]

One itty bitty thing that could raise hackles, and yes I finally answered to it, is the idea that one must suspend knowledge or reality or disbelief in order to be Christian. I know that has nothing to do with this, but........ wait, that means it didn't really need to be mentioned at all?!?

 

I'm sure it varies greatly but in my case, I would have to "unknow" some of the things I learned or experienced in order to be a Christian again. I guess it could theoretically come about by experiencing something so profound that it changes my whole view of life, the universe and everything. But, it's not that I don't believe in God or a Supreme Being. I just don't believe in the Bible's idea of God (among other things).

 

I feel bad only answering this question from a point of view of what I DON'T believe, or beliefs lost, but I'm still searching for the answers that work for me.

[freethinkermama]

With my whole heart, I understand what you are saying. Please believe me. I have that same sense of justice. It's finely tuned.

 

If I were to draw that cartoon, instead of God sitting in the chair, I would put US in the chair. That is OUR fault. *MY* fault. And it's what propels me.

 

I can appreciate that perspective.

 

To me, the difference is the Biblical God can simply alleviate the suffering of millions of dying children right now by simply willing it. You can't. Even if you took all of your money, and left your home and tried to get to those children and save them, you couldn't.

 

"God" can.

Edited March 31, 2011 by freethinkermama

[Audrey]

To clarify, what I am reading and my own experience isn't limited to encounters with hypocritical "Christians".

 

It's is often a complete, epic *fail* on the part of intellect, scripture, ritual, dogma, doctrine and culture. Many have left Christianity not in response to observing people but because "God" or "Christianity" didn't make sense in light of their understanding of the world.

 

Edited to add: The post I quoted from read like many others; that if "you" were just the right (i.e. saved, like me, born again, bible believing....) Christian, you wouldn't have left. I have to say I believe the posters here when they say they WERE Christian, they did believe (or prayed earnestly to).

 

 

This is very true for me. I had never had a bad experience with a Christian when I was one. I think I was too blind to see some of the nasty things some were doing though. I actually quite enjoyed the social activities and volunteer opportunities of church. I continued participating in that until I left for college, even when I didn't believe anymore.

 

I left Christianity because of the failure of the story. I could not buy the line that was the Christian God and Jesus and the Scriptures. Period.

 

The time since I have not been Christian has been the time when I've seen the nasty Christian stuff going on. If I'm going to be really honest, about 90% of the nasty Christians I've ever encountered have been right here on this board. I'm grateful to know mostly very decent, loving Christians IRL.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Audrey

[Tea Time]

I did not read past these quotes because it just too exhausting (and kinda depressing), so I may have missed some things. Today, I just don't have any more time. Sorry its long, too, but I missed so much!

 

Wow, I missed this before. What a sad picture you paint of atheists. I do not believe the universe is meaningless. Is this REALLY what Christians think of atheists? I feel very insulted by this.

 

But thank you for telling us how we should categorize things under our belief system, which apparently you know a lot about.

 

I don't think atheists do, in fact, find the universe meaningless. I think they do find meaning, and that, to me is evidence that more is going on here than meets the eye. I think, however, that a truly materialistic, deterministic view of the universe would be meaningless if it was honestly held by anyone. I believe that is why Friedrich Nietzsche, who was kind of honest in this regard, went insane and died in a sad state. Most people just don't swallow it. They borrow from outside that paradigm. (This would be a good point on which to make a counter-argument, and that would be interesting to discuss further, but you would have to have followed my original argument better to do that.)

 

And I am not telling you anything. I am just commenting on my own departure from atheism and some of the arguments that went into that process, which happen to be common in classical thinking. Please stop the guilt trip, okay? That is one of the issues you are critical of, isn't it? Christians are far from the only ones that engage in it.

There is no room for intelligent discussion here. Your post is based on a faulty premise; that persons without Christianity are also without a moral compass or a standard. Your thought process assumes that lack of Christianity = hedonism.

 

The only value I see as "Christian" is Jesus is Lord. Any other behavior\trait is found in other religions, in wisdom literature across the ages and in the minds of individuals.

 

That "they'll know we are Christians by our love" is a crock. Plenty of people "love" and operate with a standard. It is only exclusive faith traditions who feel they exclusively own morality, kindness, care, charity, etc.

 

Enjoy and feel safe in your relationship with Christ. Try to avoid false dichotomies in arguements, though.

You are not following my argument. I don't think ANY of that and did not say any of that, but I see your exclusive view of inclusivity. I am sure it hurts some people's feelings. :tongue_smilie:

 

Do you really believe that atheists have no morals? No standards? How sad to hold such a view of fellow human beings.

http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/morality_without_religion.htm

 

No, I don't believe that atheists have no morals or standards. Quite the opposite. The fact that they have a standard is shown quite clearly on this thread by how completely they think Christians FAIL to keep it. I think that they do find meaning in the world, too. I just think that this is evidence, perhaps the only possible evidence, of something other than a materialist/deterministic universe. And it will always, even if you wiped the collective memory of the world today, result in "religion." This is not a new thought process, many classical thinkers covered this ground. I didn't make it up.

 

The fact that the only response I get about my post is guilty recrimination and nothing said about the ideas is exactly what I was talking about (and predicted). But this is highly philosophical ground. It would be perfect ground for a classical thinking discussion, like, say, about the issue of suffering in the world (there is an argument that it is inevitable in a world with free will and order). I do long to discuss these matters from a classical perspective. I always feel disappointed about not finding that here, but I need to get over it and move on. :confused:

 

Lots of people are understandably disappointed in how often people fail to live up to moral standards, I tend to feel disappointed that people will not live up to logical standards. But, perhaps the error in thinking is equal because people make mistakes (they do try hard, though, which is pretty amazing to me, amazing enough to make me believe in God). I am sorry that atheists do not feel safe on this board, or if I contribute to that, but does anyone? I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they visit this board for mental stimulation, for sharing thoughts on complex ideas. I think, because of the highly charged ideas, we get the worst picture of everyone (nasty Christians / nasty atheists), but that is the nature of discussion. JMHO.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

The time since I have not been Christian has been the time when I've seen the nasty Christian stuff going on. If I'm going to be really honest, about 90% of the nasty Christians I've ever encountered have been right here on this board. I'm grateful to know mostly very decent, loving Christians IRL.

That is interesting. I am thinking that a great deal of that has to do with the limits of communicating in this way.

[BlsdMama]

 

The time since I have not been Christian has been the time when I've seen the nasty Christian stuff going on. If I'm going to be really honest, about 90% of the nasty Christians I've ever encountered have been right here on this board. I'm grateful to know mostly very decent, loving Christians IRL.

 

Sidenote: Glad about that last part and disheartened about the first. :(

People tend to forget there are people on the other end of the computer.

 

:grouphug:

[lionfamily1999]

I'm sure it varies greatly but in my case, I would have to "unknow" some of the things I learned or experienced in order to be a Christian again. I guess it could theoretically come about by experiencing something so profound that it changes my whole view of life, the universe and everything. But, it's not that I don't believe in God or a Supreme Being. I just don't believe in the Bible's idea of God (among other things).

 

I feel bad only answering this question from a point of view of what I DON'T believe, or beliefs lost, but I'm still searching for the answers that work for me.

You know things, now, that make being a Christian impossible for you. I will not belittle those things (where I said "silly" in the other post was in response to the like sort of responses everywhere else concerning Christians who believe the Bible, perhaps I should add a 'sarcasm' note). I understand not understanding. I know that the vast majority of Christians answer question from the pov of not knowing. It's like the YE/OE debate. There are some screamers that claim to know the truth and there are masses of us (Christians) that just don't know. We may lean one way or another, but it's just a leaning, it's a grasping of what we know is a truth, but it's like for right now the best we can hope for are a few gossamer strings to hold on to. I don't know how old the earth is (to continue with the example) and I don't think it's horribly important, but I know enough (God made it) to satisfy my own needs.

 

Don't feel bad for answering from your own dark spot in the universe. There's light and sometimes all we can see of it is threads of grey. When you see the threads of grey, at least you know there's a truth there (supreme being for example). Eventually, you'll either follow those threads of light to their source, or you'll make up phantasms to fit their shape. I guess we're all a little worried at times that what we see as truth is only a phantasm made from the grey, iykwIm.

 

One thing I know and am sure of. If you seek, you will find. If you ask for fish God won't hand you a stone. Borrowing from X-Files, "The truth is out there." :grouphug:

 

I hope I haven't offended or turned you off any further. I just get irritated when I feel like people are patting me on the head and trying to hand me a "stupid" sign. It's not that I don't believe scientists are trying to figure things out, or that they don't have great rules for trying to keep it separate from themselves. It's that I have very little faith in mankind to do that sort thing and I don't believe that makes me smarter or dumber than the next person.

[Rosie_0801]

I know you Americans are going to find this difficult to believe, but these recent religious threads are making me really glad to be Australian.

 

;)

Rosie

[Rosie_0801]

That is interesting. I am thinking that a great deal of that has to do with the limits of communicating in this way.

 

I think it has more to do with the fear others have described earlier in the thread and the belief that witnessing trumps manners.

 

Rosie

[OH_Homeschooler]

I did not read past these quotes because it just too exhausting (and kinda depressing), so I may have missed some things. Today, I just don't have any more time. Sorry its long, too, but I missed so much!

 

 

I don't think atheists do, in fact, find the universe meaningless. I think they do find meaning, and that, to me is evidence that more is going on here than meets the eye. I think, however, that a truly materialistic, deterministic view of the universe would be meaningless if it was honestly held by anyone. I believe that is why Friedrich Nietzsche, who was kind of honest in this regard, went insane and died in a sad state. Most people just don't swallow it. They borrow from outside that paradigm. (This would be a good point on which to make a counter-argument, and that would be interesting to discuss further, but you would have to have followed my original argument better to do that.)

 

Well, I am tired too and don't have time to go back, but I do believe you said, as I quoted, that atheists believe the universe is meaningless. If I missed a larger point I am sorry.

 

And I am not telling you anything. I am just commenting on my own departure from atheism and some of the arguments that went into that process, which happen to be common in classical thinking. Please stop the guilt trip, okay? That is one of the issues you are critical of, isn't it? Christians are far from the only ones that engage in it.

 

Guilt trip, really? No, just stating how I feel in a place where I thought it was a safe place for me as an atheist. It's hard to find those around these parts sometimes. Seriously, way harder than it is if you are Christian. That's just the way of things as Christians are by far the majority religious belief in this country.

 

Did I ever say I was critical of the use of guilt trips on the part of Christians? Perhaps you are overgeneralizing here. In fact, the guilty conscience is one aspect of my upbringing as a Catholic that I cannot shake.

 

I see in your post you basically told several of us that we were misinterpreting everything you say. Meanwhile, we all interpreted it the same way. Maybe you are not coming across as you intend to.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[swimmermom3]

I know you Americans are going to find this difficult to believe, but these recent religious threads are making me really glad to be Australian.

 

;)

Rosie

 

Rosie, I have a 13yo who would like to jump on a plane and head your way.

[Sun]

I know you Americans are going to find this difficult to believe, but these recent religious threads are making me really glad to be Australian.

 

;)

Rosie

 

I can believe it. There is a lot of intolerance in American society these days.

[Audrey]

That is interesting. I am thinking that a great deal of that has to do with the limits of communicating in this way.

 

 

I think it is quite the opposite -- not the limits of communicating this way, but the anonymous freedom of communicating this way. People will post things that they would never say IRL. It brings out people's true colours, which is actually a very good thing to know.

 

Perhaps, IRL, the people I know think I am truly a piece of wasted cr*p, but they just don't have the guts or tactlessness to say it to me. :001_huh: I kind of doubt that, though. I've known them enough to have seen what kind of people they are.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Audrey

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[pbt1294]

I was a christian as a 9 year old, but I seriously thought that God didn't exist for about 5 years after that. I did come back to the Lord when I was still young, about 14. I know this sounds crazy, but I really remember reasoning it all out when I was a kiddo.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think it is quite the opposite -- not the limits of communicating this way, but the anonymous freedom of communicating this way. People will post things that they would never say IRL. It brings out people's true colours, which is actually a very good thing to know.

 

Perhaps, IRL, the people I know think I am truly a piece of wasted cr*p.

I think it is a little of both.

 

I must be missing a lot, because I was under the impression that everyone liked you. I am so sorry that people have made you feel that way. :grouphug: If I have then include me in the group, I sincerely hope that I have not.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Tea Time]

Well, I am tired too and don't have time to go back, but I do believe you said, as I quoted, that atheists believe the universe is meaningless. If I missed a larger point I am sorry. [/Quote]

Thanks for the reply. The way I wrote the post was probably not the best way to do it in this discussion, so, yes, I think that caused it to be misunderstood. I hope I fleshed out the idea for you and it made more sense and was less insulting.

 

Guilt trip, really? No, just stating how I feel in a place where I thought it was a safe place for me as an atheist. It's hard to find those around these parts sometimes. Seriously, way harder than it is if you are Christian. That's just the way of things as Christians are by far the majority religious belief in this country.

 

Did I ever say I was critical of the use of guilt trips on the part of Christians? Perhaps you are overgeneralizing here. In fact, the guilty conscience is one aspect of my upbringing as a Catholic that I cannot shake. [/Quote]

I feel like this side-steps several points I made about how all these behaviors that people on this thread complain about when Christians do it, they do those things, too. No one wants to address that issue, I notice. But I have not read every post in detail, so I am sorry if someone did and I missed it. Not enough time today. I shouldn't even be on here! :D

 

Anyway, could I suggest that maybe everyone needs to mentally take a step in these discussions. If someone posits an idea, can't we discuss the merits of that idea instead of being insulted because it paints our POV in a negative light, or we feel like it does? I guess maybe that is impossible here.

 

I see in your post you basically told several of us that we were misinterpreting everything you say. Meanwhile, we all interpreted it the same way. Maybe you are not coming across as you intend to.

Maybe, yes. But it is also possible that the philosophical argument is just really foreign, you haven't been exposed to it before. And, I must say, I also wonder if there is just not more side-stepping going on because that is easier than really addressing the ideas. I say that because, although I do think I have made the ideas clear, no one is really addressing them. Being insulted in a variety of ways by the other side's claims is much easier than negating those claims. These days, that sort of style of debate is all. over. the. place.

 

Much better minds have described the idea much better than I did. I am definitely out of my pay grade! :lol: You know, it doesn't appear that anyone here recognizes the ideas I just talked about from their classical studies. Oh well. I'll have to keep working on my writing style. :sad:

 

Hey, thanks again for responding. I really appreciate your consideration, and I don't mean that snarky, if it comes off that way. I really do. Take care!

[Lovedtodeath]

I can believe it. There is a lot of intolerance in American society these days.

Yep.

 

I think it has more to do with the fear others have described earlier in the thread and the belief that witnessing trumps manners.

Good point.

 

, I am silently going through the motions for my kids, who've yet to make up their own minds, but I'm far far gone. It is sad really, because I miss the comfort I used to find in my faith.

:grouphug: I think that is the hardest. :(

[Lovedtodeath]

 

If someone posits an idea, can't we discuss the merits of that idea instead of being insulted because it paints our POV in a negative light, or we feel like it does?

I have honestly had a lot of trouble with that lately, but maybe I will handle it better without PMS.

[nmoira]

Bolding mine.

 

Maybe, yes. But it is also possible that the philosophical argument is just really foreign, you haven't been exposed to it before. And, I must say, I also wonder if there is just not more side-stepping going on because that is easier than really addressing the ideas. I say that because, although I do think I have made the ideas clear, no one is really addressing them. Being insulted in a variety of ways by the other side's claims is much easier than negating those claims. These days, that sort of style of debate is all. over. the. place.

Did you wish to start clarifying now, before many of us take you to mean something you don't? :lol:

[Jennifer3141]

Bolding mine.

 

Did you wish to start clarifying now, before many of us take you to mean something you don't? :lol:

 

:D

And I just can't help wondering what the precipation level is when one lives THAT high on a horse. Do you have to sleep in a raincoat or do you just use a giant condom at some point?

[freethinkermama]

Funny that this poll is coming now, and I didn't have time to read all the replies, but I can say honestly say that the YE/OE and evolution/creation debate were the seeds of my un-conversion. Because I couldn't be "that kind of Christian", I began to doubt whether I could be one at all.

 

Once the doubts began, there was an avalanche. I began to think I needed to leave my brain in the parking lot every time I entered the church building. Right now, I am silently going through the motions for my kids, who've yet to make up their own minds, but I'm far far gone. It is sad really, because I miss the comfort I used to find in my faith.

 

I feel for you, Shari.

I was really glad my children were young enough that when we left, they got over it pretty quickly. There were some sad weeks, and one of my children was worried about going to Hell (and we were a saved-by-grace sort of family!--doesn't matter though, Hell is scary and it's a great stick).

What surprised me what that my oldest was relieved. "Oh, good," she said, "I had a hard time believing all of that anyway."

Two years previously, I'd have been beside myself with grief to think my children wouldn't believe. Now, I'm just relieved.

[Audrey]

 

Maybe, yes. But it is also possible that the philosophical argument is just really foreign, you haven't been exposed to it before. And, I must say, I also wonder if there is just not more side-stepping going on because that is easier than really addressing the ideas. I say that because, although I do think I have made the ideas clear, no one is really addressing them. Being insulted in a variety of ways by the other side's claims is much easier than negating those claims. These days, that sort of style of debate is all. over. the. place.

 

Much better minds have described the idea much better than I did. I am definitely out of my pay grade! :lol: You know, it doesn't appear that anyone here recognizes the ideas I just talked about from their classical studies. Oh well. I'll have to keep working on my writing style. :sad:

 

Hey, thanks again for responding. I really appreciate your consideration, and I don't mean that snarky, if it comes off that way. I really do. Take care!

 

 

FWIW, you are coming off quite snarky. I know you say you don't mean it, but ... there it is.

 

As to your postulation on materialism, I'm not sure there's enough of an understanding, on your part, of materialism as a philosophy to have a discussion. What you posted was a mostly irreverant and somewhat inaccurate summation, so I'm not sure why you would expect anyone to pick up your ball and run with it? :confused:

 

If you, indeed, wanted to have a discussion on materialism I would suggest starting another thread. :001_smile: Perhaps those who subscribe to such a philosophy would participate in a discussion with you. As it seems, here in this thread, there are no posters either adherents to or interested in materialism.

[Lovedtodeath]

Bolding mine.

 

Did you wish to start clarifying now, before many of us take you to mean something you don't? :lol:

:lol:

[Tea Time]

Bolding mine.

 

Did you wish to start clarifying now, before many of us take you to mean something you don't? :lol:

 

You know, I did A LOT of clarifying, and it just got ignored.

 

Mere Christianity, Book 1, Right and Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe by C. S. Lewis is the best translation of the old idea for modern ears. I tend to fall back on him for simple explanations of complex, older ideas. I do not expect it to convince anyone here, but that is the idea that I was talking about, the one that no one seemed to follow. He explains it much better. :tongue_smilie:

 

Also, I recommend The Problem of Pain. He paints the most vivid, honest picture of the materialist POV at the beginning of that book.

 

I don't have any more time this weekend. Sorry to "hit and run."

[secular_mom]

:lol:

Yeah! No kidding we'd all be much better off if such comments were not made, including yours. Everybody agrees, the world would be a MUCH better place if everyone was just like me. :lol:

 

We GET that your angry. People do mean things. They say nasty things. If you are observant, there is no group of people who belong to a particular philosophical POV that are exempt from it, either. It does not really make any logical sense to be so exceptionally angry with Christians who do it, is there?

 

I'm not exceptionally angry with Christians in general. I'm angry that others go out of their way to bait me and then dismiss my response. I feel insulted when that happens. It happens IRL as well as online.

 

As a secular humanist, don't you think that such righteous indignation has no place? This is a meaningless universe. Why get so worked up about anything? Eat, drink, and be merry. Live and let live. But thinking people are not living up to some "standard" is patently absurd under such a belief system.

 

There is no God then there is no standard, except that knee-jerk everyone must think like me standard that ALL of us have (called selfishness), or the eat=good/not eat=bad, and that isn't really what is bugging you here. Stop being disappointed and angry at Christians (or anyone else) for failing to meet it. And don't tell me that the anger comes in because Christians THINK there is a standard and then they can't meet it. You are still then invoking some standard that someone made up, unless that standard exists apart from humans, and that is a philosophical argument FOR a God, so watch out for that.

 

Again, in a materialist world none of that matters. It all just is what it is, and it quite possibly could never have been any other way (determinism). Such anger and bitterness (not just you, I am not picking on you, but a lot of people in this thread and IRL) about how people fail to observe morality are really just as imaginary as any Jesus or Skydaddy, aren't they?

 

I am not going to listen to any machinations about how the way you are looking at is is right because... The point is that such machinations to justify a POV as being the "right" POV on these matters are all evidence of that "standard" that exists and has no place in a materialist universe. That is why I left my atheism.

 

Now, figuring out that standard, and what POV gets closest to understanding it or applying it? THAT is a whole other can of worms.

 

I have not made any claims that I am a materialist or a secular humanist, I feel as though you are throwing labels at me and mocking me. I have no 'belief system'. The only standards of behavior that exist are those that we create. I think that morality has evolved as we have.

I have no desire to debate with anyone over whether there is some woo-ish Standard of morality or not, or really anything else for that matter. I would just like to NOT have someone else's view crammed down my throat any time I mumble my own. Yes, my posts in this thread have probably been caustic- that's because of the pressure that builds up when a person is dismissed as 'less than' on a regular basis by the majority. I'm fed up with sitting back and letting the majority have their way with words in such a hurtful manner while I just turn my back.

Here's a related video, probably has offensive language so click at your own risk. http://www.youtube.com/user/ZJemptv#p/u/3/p68-k_fiiaQ

[secular_mom]

You know, I did A LOT of clarifying, and it just got ignored.

 

Mere Christianity, Book 1, Right and Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe by C. S. Lewis is the best translation of the old idea for modern ears. I tend to fall back on him for simple explanations of complex, older ideas. I do not expect it to convince anyone here, but that is the idea that I was talking about, the one that no one seemed to follow. He explains it much better. :tongue_smilie:

 

Also, I recommend The Problem of Pain. He paints the most vivid, honest picture of the materialist POV at the beginning of that book.

 

I don't have any more time this weekend. Sorry to "hit and run."

I have read Mere Christianity and I disagree with it. Seems like this thread is turning more toward proselytizing now, no thank you.

[nmoira]

You know, I did A LOT of clarifying, and it just got ignored.

 

Mere Christianity, Book 1, Right and Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe by C. S. Lewis is the best translation of the old idea for modern ears. I tend to fall back on him for simple explanations of complex, older ideas. I do not expect it to convince anyone here, but that is the idea that I was talking about, the one that no one seemed to follow. He explains it much better. :tongue_smilie:

 

Also, I recommend The Problem of Pain. He paints the most vivid, honest picture of the materialist POV at the beginning of that book.

 

I don't have any more time this weekend. Sorry to "hit and run."

Did it occur to you that the idea "no one seems to follow" has actually been followed but just found to be irrelevant either to the purpose of this thread or at the very least to the lives of those you are painting in such a stark light? People bristle at being told *what* they are or *what* they believe, even when the terms are fairly accurate. In this case, they're not even that. Not all atheists are materialists, and even those that are are still capable of reasoned thought. ;) There are even some (including at least one poster on this board) who equate philosophical materialism with things, the worship of things (it takes a bit of conflation to get there, but so be it). [ETA: I'm talking about an erroneous interpretation of materialism put forth by those who've heard the word in this context, but don't really know what it means.] Further, not all atheists would even identify as secular humanists (and vice versa). I would suggest that if you want to start a discussion about morals and ethics in the absence of a god, that you broaden your research to include someone other than a failed atheist (tongue *firmly* in cheek there... can't emphasize this one too strongly :lol:). Edited April 1, 2011 by nmoira