Ok, so I am finally absolutely convinced Americans are going to face VERY rough times

[susankenny]

Can I come live with you? :D

 

That's what I was thinking, lol.

 

This thread is stressing me out....oh.my.gawsh. I just need a back-up plan for my family, and moving to her farm sounds like the perfect option:lol:

 

 

Susan

[nd293]

It's interesting - we've been in Australia for two years, and in the past year or ten months there seem to be some Americans popping up on our local homeschooling board, or at homeschooling events, mostly people just in the process of moving here. Definitely not something I noticed in the first year. I assume that's a response to the economic situation in the US. So I guess some people see migration as one way of preparing for "very bad times".

[In2why]

economically and hyper-inflation is coming. We don't live on a farm(although we live on 10 wooded acres) have no animals and don't even have a garden. Could someone give me a resource to the most basic starting point help to prepare for extremely bad times?

 

I've read a little from old threads, but they're a bit overwhelming- would really like a simple resource. TIA

 

 

I decided after Katrina and with the risk of bio-terrorism that there were certain things that would make us feel more comfortable.

 

There is a book called backyard gardening that I highly suggest for growing food that is sustainable. I also believe that it is important to have a clean water source, or a water tank. If possible paying off all debt, including your mortgage is important. If you own it outright no one can take it from you. Previously our philosopy was that the tax breaks and the growth of our savings meant it was better not to pay off the mortgage, but with the markets the way they are, our thoughts changed.

 

I have also gotten very interested in how Native American's lived on the land, and have made some things part of our homeschooling and life skills.

The other thing is basic medical. I have high blood pressure and I keep at least a 90 day supply at all times. But more important is to have first aid supplies and the ability to use them. So I took a first aid class, and have thought about joining our rescue squad to get even more training.

 

Lastly both my husband and I are getting better at target practice both for hunting and self defense.

 

If I read this out of context I would think I was a nut. :D But we didn't do it all at once, and we aren't doomsdayers (sp). I do believe that being prepared is important, and even if nothing ever happen, we are learning new skills, reducing our footprint, and being thrifty.

[lmkzbcb]

What do you do when you have nothing to begin with? I see this looming up in the future, and besides reading lots of books on self-sufficiency from the library and learning to sew, I do not see anything else I can do. I couldn't even grow seeds in a window box, because we are living out of a room in my parents' house.

 

Start by keeping some cash in the house with you. I think someone on here said they keep $1000. If you need to save 5 or 10 at a time to get there, that's okay. That is just a good rule of thumb no matter what happens.

 

You can purchase seeds for little to nothing and I am sure your parent's wouldn't mind if you had a little garden in their backyard. Whatever expenses you can help your parent's save on, is going to help you out too. Again this is something you might want to do anyways for the health and money saving.

 

There is a great book out called "Clara's Kitchen". It is a quasi-cookbook/memoir about surviving the Great Depression. She gives some good advice and recipes for hard times living. She is on youtube also.

There are a series of Depression Era cookbooks. I think 5. Anyway, here is the link for 1 of them. http://www.amazon.com/Stories-Recipes-Depression-Low-Fat-Cookbooks/dp/0961966327/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Cooking frugally is something that is helpful no matter what happens.

 

I think these are some good starting points for anyone and it isnt loosing your head either.

[lmkzbcb]

It's interesting - we've been in Australia for two years, and in the past year or ten months there seem to be some Americans popping up on our local homeschooling board, or at homeschooling events, mostly people just in the process of moving here. Definitely not something I noticed in the first year. I assume that's a response to the economic situation in the US. So I guess some people see migration as one way of preparing for "very bad times".

 

 

Ah, interesting. I had a IRL friend ask me about a year ago if I had ever thought about leaving the country. I answered with "yeah, but where would I go?" She agreed. Maybe we should have been talking to someone Down Under. ;)

[TXMary2]

I agree with most of what you have said. I believe the only real solution is to look at what caused this in the first place:

 

We have to get over this entitlement mentality. We have to stop demanding the government provide nearly everything for us and get back to work ethic and individual responsibility.

 

We have to get over the idea that utopia is possible if we just spend a little more money and redistribute everybody's income equally.

 

We have to get back to using public assistance for what it should be used for and that is as a last resort to keep people from starving until they get back on their feet, except for those who are truly disabled due to age or infirmity, not just to "make life easier", especially when the families have other options but won't take them because they are inconvenient. If we don't rein this in, the help won't be there for those that really need it.

 

Restructure welfare so that it has a goal of getting people self-sufficient as soon as possible.

 

We have to stop making it profitable for people not to work by providing them with everything. Deal with the root causes of poverty instead of just throwing money at the outcome.

 

We have to stop making it profitable for teens to have babies.

 

We need to stop "nation building". Stop all foreign aid. It usually ends up in the hands of dictators anyway.

 

Stop funding public radio, public television, and "the arts". They can compete for public funds just like the rest of the non-profit organizations.

 

Get the government back to doing only what the Constitution charges it with. Everything else needs to be done through the private sector with government regulation only if necessary

 

Everyone should pay taxes. Half the population needs to stop looking at the other half as their personal ATM whenever they think they need it. Stop voting for the candidate who promises to raises taxes on those already carrying the majority of the burden so you can live off of it. Learn the difference between "need" and "want". Everyone needs to have a stake in taxes and spending.

 

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Not much of this is going to be popular because certain politicians have convinced a large part of the population that the government is responsible for taking care of all of our needs. We are now seeing the results. Is this harsh? Yes. It has to be. The party is over. We need to wake up to reality.

 

AMEN Sister!

[Lady Florida.]

Lots of countries have had these episodes without civil society breaking down completely.

 

Bingo! Unfortunately fear is powerful. And fear sells.

[snipsnsnailsx5]

We have to stop making it profitable for teens to have babies.

 

I can see your point in most of what you said. I'm not sure I agree with it entirely. I think its easy to make blanket statements of what we should do, but its not that easy to actually implement something like that! Things are never that black and white.

 

However, I'm curious, how does the system make it profitable for teens to have babies? What should be the alternative?

 

I was a teen mom, and I can tell you that it was NOT profitable!

[elfinbaby]

I just watched the Cooking with Clara video. She reminds me of my 90 yr. old grandma. Neither of them use cutting boards! My granny just sits at the table with a bowl and "chips" up veggies for cooking. My granny is from a small SE TX town (pop. 500 maybe).

 

She told me during the Depression, her family ate a lot of biscuits w/gravy, biscuits with tomato gravy, biscuits with egg gravy, and on and on. They were unimaginably poor but they did garden, they were able to butcher some animals they had, and, since everyone else around them was just as poor, they didn't really think about poverty all that much. They were rough times for sure though. Not many people these days could get through what she survived, not only for lack of knowledge, but the sheer amount of physical labor she endured on a daily basis just to keep food on the table and clean clothes in the house.

[Ana]

I so agree with most of this!

 

I agree with most of what you have said. I believe the only real solution is to look at what caused this in the first place:

 

We have to get over this entitlement mentality. We have to stop demanding the government provide nearly everything for us and get back to work ethic and individual responsibility. YES!

 

We have to get over the idea that utopia is possible if we just spend a little more money and redistribute everybody's income equally.

 

We have to get back to using public assistance for what it should be used for and that is as a last resort to keep people from starving until they get back on their feet, except for those who are truly disabled due to age or infirmity, not just to "make life easier", especially when the families have other options but won't take them because they are inconvenient. If we don't rein this in, the help won't be there for those that really need it.

 

Restructure welfare so that it has a goal of getting people self-sufficient as soon as possible. This is a must! I agree with this 100%!

 

We have to stop making it profitable for people not to work by providing them with everything. Deal with the root causes of poverty instead of just throwing money at the outcome.

 

We have to stop making it profitable for teens to have babies.

 

We need to stop "nation building". Stop all foreign aid. It usually ends up in the hands of dictators anyway. you can not help others if you can not take care of yourself, America is beyond being able to take care of themselves.

 

Stop funding public radio, public television, and "the arts". They can compete for public funds just like the rest of the non-profit organizations. Yes, then they can truly be unbiased and blow the whistle full fledge on politicians who need to be called out.

 

Get the government back to doing only what the Constitution charges it with. Everything else needs to be done through the private sector with government regulation only if necessary

 

Everyone should pay taxes. Do you know how much national debt we could clear if churches who dabble in politics had to pay taxes? Churches who refuse to help those who come to them for help are required to pay taxes since the government will have to do what God's people are suppose to be doing anyway? Half the population needs to stop looking at the other half as their personal ATM whenever they think they need it. Stop voting for the candidate who promises to raises taxes on those already carrying the majority of the burden so you can live off of it. Learn the difference between "need" and "want". Everyone needs to have a stake in taxes and spending.

 

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Not much of this is going to be popular because certain politicians have convinced a large part of the population that the government is responsible for taking care of all of our needs. We are now seeing the results. Is this harsh? Yes. It has to be. The party is over. We need to wake up to reality.

 

 

kudos for pointing out the obvious!

[Renee in NC]

I agree with most of what you have said. I believe the only real solution is to look at what caused this in the first place:

 

...

 

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Not much of this is going to be popular because certain politicians have convinced a large part of the population that the government is responsible for taking care of all of our needs. We are now seeing the results. Is this harsh? Yes. It has to be. The party is over. We need to wake up to reality.

 

People on gov't assistance did not cause this problem. We can point fingers in a lot of directions all across the political and socioeconomic spectrum. To lay it at the feet of those who receive gov't assitance is ridiculous. They didn't cause credit default swaps, they didn't send our jobs overseas, and they weren't manipulating the economy during growth as you would during a recession.

 

I agree that it is going to take belt tightening across all of the families in the U.S. However, you could *eliminate* every gov't program aimed at those in poverty and not even begin to fix the disaster that Washington has gotten us into.

 

EVERYONE has a part of the blame of where we have ended up.

[In2why]

I was scrolling along quickly and read this as:

 

If you have extra funds to invest, buy liver.

 

:blink:

 

lol...but jokes aside Liver is a better investment then gold. Gold is at it's high. Never buy investments when it is at its highest price, it has no where to go but down. NOW is when you sell gold if you have it.

[Robin's Song]

lol...but jokes aside Liver is a better investment then gold. Gold is at it's high. Never buy investments when it is at its highest price, it has no where to go but down. NOW is when you sell gold if you have it.

 

A lot of people would argue that gold is not anywhere near its peak right now...

 

:leaving:

[In2why]

It's interesting - we've been in Australia for two years, and in the past year or ten months there seem to be some Americans popping up on our local homeschooling board, or at homeschooling events, mostly people just in the process of moving here. Definitely not something I noticed in the first year. I assume that's a response to the economic situation in the US. So I guess some people see migration as one way of preparing for "very bad times".

 

 

We are discussing buying a second home out of the country, and the way things are going in America is one of the reasons.

[jld]

Bingo! Unfortunately fear is powerful. And fear sells.

 

No kidding.

[Snowfall]

Lots of countries have had these episodes without civil society breaking down completely.

Yes. Thank you!

 

Bingo! Unfortunately fear is powerful. And fear sells.

 

Absolutely! And I wonder if people realize that on any given day, somewhere on the interwebz there's a conversation like this happening. I don't think I hang out at any weird places (although I guess many people would call home schoolers weird :lol:) but I've seen these imminent doom, prepare for the collapse of the whole world conversations popping up for at least 6 years now. While it could happen soon, people have been saying we only had a period of MONTHS for the past few YEARS. And I guarantee you that if I could document further back than that, it would be the same for the past century at least. lol The funny thing is that if it ever does happen, everyone will say they were right, even though they predicted it was due within months ten years ago.

 

People on gov't assistance did not cause this problem. We can point fingers in a lot of directions all across the political and socioeconomic spectrum. To lay it at the feet of those who receive gov't assitance is ridiculous. They didn't cause credit default swaps, they didn't send our jobs overseas, and they weren't manipulating the economy during growth as you would during a recession.

 

I agree that it is going to take belt tightening across all of the families in the U.S. However, you could *eliminate* every gov't program aimed at those in poverty and not even begin to fix the disaster that Washington has gotten us into.

 

EVERYONE has a part of the blame of where we have ended up.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:Add to that, that they did not artificially inflate food and oil prices (which had a big impact on the economy) through futures trading. That's happening again, by the way, so we can expect food and oil prices to rise for that reason, not because prices are increasing due to the imminent collapse of the world.

[Renee in NC]

Yes. Thank you!

 

Absolutely! And I wonder if people realize that on any given day, somewhere on the interwebz there's a conversation like this happening. I don't think I hang out at any weird places (although I guess many people would call home schoolers weird :lol:) but I've seen these imminent doom, prepare for the collapse of the whole world conversations popping up for at least 6 years now. While it could happen soon, people have been saying we only had a period of MONTHS for the past few YEARS. And I guarantee you that if I could document further back than that, it would be the same for the past century at least. lol The funny thing is that if it ever does happen, everyone will say they were right, even though they predicted it was due within months ten years ago.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:Add to that, that they did not artificially inflate food and oil prices (which had a big impact on the economy) through futures trading. That's happening again, by the way, so we can expect food and oil prices to rise for that reason, not because prices are increasing due to the imminent collapse of the world.

 

Don't even get me started on futures trading.:glare: A month or so ago, while studying for the CPA exam, I learned all about hedging and derivatives. I came away from that with a clear understanding of what happened to our economy. It was (and still is) like a giant game of "Hot Potato" where you just don't want to be the one holding it when the music stops. Futures is a big part of that, and not even just commodity trading. Foreign currency futures can wreck havoc on inflation as well - it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Also, forgive me. I laid the blame at Washington's feet, but I need to leave some room at the top for Wall Street, too. You can't grow an economy on money that doesn't exist. That's what we were doing for 20 years or more and *that* was the bubble that burst (the housing was but a visible symbol.)

[Debbie in OR]

And be realistic...you aren't going to learn how to be a survivalist fur trapper / bark boiler at this point...focus on stuff you can control first, and don't sweat the rest. :)

 

:blink::smilielol5:

 

I just bought a book called Emergency Food Storage & Survival Handbook: Everything You Need to Know to Keep Your Family Safe in a Crisis by

Peggy Layton. I also ordered a book from the library called Easy Container Combos : Vegetables & Flowers by Pamela Crawford so that we can container garden. We have nearly 2 acres but our CCRs won't let us do a big ole garden. Like Barry Goldwater said, focus on what you can control. I figure we can plant container gardens and store food/vitamins/supplies as it makes sense.

[Aggie]

I decided after Katrina and with the risk of bio-terrorism that there were certain things that would make us feel more comfortable.

 

There is a book called backyard gardening that I highly suggest for growing food that is sustainable. I also believe that it is important to have a clean water source, or a water tank. If possible paying off all debt, including your mortgage is important. If you own it outright no one can take it from you. Previously our philosopy was that the tax breaks and the growth of our savings meant it was better not to pay off the mortgage, but with the markets the way they are, our thoughts changed.

 

I have also gotten very interested in how Native American's lived on the land, and have made some things part of our homeschooling and life skills.

The other thing is basic medical. I have high blood pressure and I keep at least a 90 day supply at all times. But more important is to have first aid supplies and the ability to use them. So I took a first aid class, and have thought about joining our rescue squad to get even more training.

 

Lastly both my husband and I are getting better at target practice both for hunting and self defense.

 

If I read this out of context I would think I was a nut. :D But we didn't do it all at once, and we aren't doomsdayers (sp). I do believe that being prepared is important, and even if nothing ever happen, we are learning new skills, reducing our footprint, and being thrifty.

 

Great post.:001_smile:

 

Regarding the bolded part: in Texas, if you own your property outright and don't pay your property taxes, the state will take it from you.:glare:

[jld]

Don't even get me started on futures trading.:glare: A month or so ago, while studying for the CPA exam, I learned all about hedging and derivatives. I came away from that with a clear understanding of what happened to our economy. It was (and still is) like a giant game of "Hot Potato" where you just don't want to be the one holding it when the music stops. Futures is a big part of that, and not even just commodity trading. Foreign currency futures can wreck havoc on inflation as well - it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Also, forgive me. I laid the blame at Washington's feet, but I need to leave some room at the top for Wall Street, too. You can't grow an economy on money that doesn't exist. That's what we were doing for 20 years or more and *that* was the bubble that burst (the housing was but a visible symbol.)

 

Thanks for saying this!:)

[Snowfall]

Thanks for saying this!:)

 

Yes, thank you!

[scrappyhappymama]

Great post.:001_smile:

 

Regarding the bolded part: in Texas, if you own your property outright and don't pay your property taxes, the state will take it from you.:glare:

 

A woman in Houston just recently had her home, that she owned outright, foreclosed on because she fell behind on HOA fees. She had actually caught up on the fees she owed, but couldn't afford to pay off the attorney fees the HOA billed her, and they foreclosed on her paid for home over less than $1k in legal fees.

 

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/investigates/110209-home-owners-association-takes-home-over-legal-fees

Edited February 18, 2011 by scrappyhappymama

[Winni]

Scary...

[delaney]

I don't know...I keep reading these threads and people are talking about having guns to protect against looters......scarcity and stealing. I get that but then to address credit cards and paying your mortgage seems kind of irrelevant if times get that bad. If someone is looting your house then obviously the police will have lost effectiveness and will finance companies really be banging down your door? How can we fall to a place of complete chaos but still have financial institutions continuing on in predictable manner? There seem to be extreme views on this in either direction. The last thing I will worry about it paying bills if I risk my life leaving my house, kwim?

[WVNA]

I don't know...I keep reading these threads and people are talking about having guns to protect against looters......scarcity and stealing. I get that but then to address credit cards and paying your mortgage seems kind of irrelevant if times get that bad. If someone is looting your house then obviously the police will have lost effectiveness and will finance companies really be banging down your door? How can we fall to a place of complete chaos but still have financial institutions continuing on in predictable manner? There seem to be extreme views on this in either direction. The last thing I will worry about it paying bills if I risk my life leaving my house, kwim?

 

I think the problem is that nobody knows for certain what will happen in the future. If we have a 1930s style depression today, then certainly being debt free(including not having a mortgage) is a very reasonable and prudent precautionary measure. I think it is very likely we will face this type of scenario in the future due to some of the issues already mentioned in this thread. Plus, if I'm wrong and you pay off your mortgage and you absolutely hate living without having mortgage payments every month, then you can always go out and get another mortgage.

 

If things fall apart even more than that, then you're right, paying off your mortgage ahead of time or paying off your credit cards is kind of irrelevant and you should be stocking up on food and ammunition. But even doing basic storage of food and other necessities can help in situations where you lose your job or weather prevents you from going to the store.

[My3Boys]

I can see your point in most of what you said. I'm not sure I agree with it entirely. I think its easy to make blanket statements of what we should do, but its not that easy to actually implement something like that! Things are never that black and white.

 

However, I'm curious, how does the system make it profitable for teens to have babies? What should be the alternative?

 

I was a teen mom, and I can tell you that it was NOT profitable!

 

In this country, if a teen girl has a baby without benefit of marriage she qualifies for all sorts of government programs. My oldest 2, one in college and one just recently graduated, have told me they know a number of girls that have had a baby so they will qualify for free tuition, housing, and food stamps and subsidized child care, or did it to get away from home. Check out Star Parker's website www.urbancure.org. She is a former welfare mom of 2 who talks about how she received free everything, would drop her kids off at paid childcare and go to the beach. I saw her in an interview where she said she knew many more like her.

 

I'm not saying this is true for all teen moms, certainly. I did not intend to offend any who have found themselves in this position unintentionally, took responsibility and worked to better the lives of themselves and their child. Unfortunately, there are many who see a child as a ticket to a free ride, with no thought to the kind of life they are condemning that child to.

[In2why]

I don't know...I keep reading these threads and people are talking about having guns to protect against looters......scarcity and stealing. I get that but then to address credit cards and paying your mortgage seems kind of irrelevant if times get that bad. If someone is looting your house then obviously the police will have lost effectiveness and will finance companies really be banging down your door? How can we fall to a place of complete chaos but still have financial institutions continuing on in predictable manner? There seem to be extreme views on this in either direction. The last thing I will worry about it paying bills if I risk my life leaving my house, kwim?

 

 

Looting can come without the nation falling into complete chaos. Again Katrina is an example, or the LA riots, or any number of natural or man made disasters. I think about the recent H1N1 scare. Luckily it wasn't a pandemic, but my grandmother told me stories about living through the the Spainish flu, where panic set in. We know that a pandemic will happen again, perhaps in our lifetime and perhaps not. There are many ways that the nations financial institutions will keep on collecting, but pockets of the country can become like "Lord of the Flies". Or it could be as simple as the power grid going off line for an extended time period. My son was born on 8/15/2003 and there were widespread power outages and the reports were that we were lucky because if one more major station had failed it could have thrown the entire eastern United States into darkness, for a good long while, and our infrastructure is not getting better, but worse.

 

As I said I don't feel like a doomsdayer. I don't subscribe to the world coming to an end, or that our government will fall apart, but I think taking basic preparations to be more self sufficient isn't a bad idea. The depression happened, pandemics happen, terrorist attacks happen, or even something as simple as hurricanes or earthquakes. My biggest thought process is that in case of any of those things I don't want to rely on the government to rescue me, feed me, or protect me. Plus if nothing happens then we are still debt free and able to use our discretionary funds to travel, help others, and it basically gives us more freedom.

[In2why]

In this country, if a teen girl has a baby without benefit of marriage she qualifies for all sorts of government programs. My oldest 2, one in college and one just recently graduated, have told me they know a number of girls that have had a baby so they will qualify for free tuition, housing, and food stamps and subsidized child care, or did it to get away from home. Check out Star Parker's website www.urbancure.org. She is a former welfare mom of 2 who talks about how she received free everything, would drop her kids off at paid childcare and go to the beach. I saw her in an interview where she said she knew many more like her.

 

I'm not saying this is true for all teen moms, certainly. I did not intend to offend any who have found themselves in this position unintentionally, took responsibility and worked to better the lives of themselves and their child. Unfortunately, there are many who see a child as a ticket to a free ride, with no thought to the kind of life they are condemning that child to.

 

I feel that the main problem is families though and not welfare. Over 50% of all children born in the US are born to single mothers. Of course not all of them are on government assistance. But you can't legistlate values. And if you could then it becomes which values. I don't want to turn this political...yet it is hard to talk about these issues without it having a political component, so I am going to try to tread lightly, which isn't the norm for me. :tongue_smilie: Since we can't legistlate family values, and that isn't a buzzword for religion because I know plenty of moral people who are not religious, and you want to stop people from having children they can't take care of, then there are only a few solutions. You have a strong economy so that everyone who wants jobs can have them, you provide birth control education and stop making it profitable to ignore it, and this is the biggie, cue head spins, you can't fight abortion and at the same time insist on not providing for the children as a result. Welfare was reformed by Clinton and Gingrich, and workfare became the norm, requiring either paying or volunteer work to get assistance. It also limits the time a person can be on assistance to 5 years, so the "welfare queen" myth is finally dead. But it comes down to personal responsibility as well. I feel like we taught/teach our children values, we educate them about responsibility and choices, yet my daughter became an unwed mother at the age of 19. Abortion was not a personal option, we had recently adopted our youngest son from the system, and while I believe in adoption I also know it is built on loss, so that wasn't an option, so that left parenting. We could have thrown her out (we would never), insisted she got herself into this, so it was her problem and had her get government aid, or we could help her, help herself. She qualified for assistance but we felt like we as her family is her welfare system. I also didn't want her getting used to it, or seeing it as a long term option. She finished her education, then went to work and we provided daycare and a place for her and our grandchild to live. But she is the parent and she is responsible for herself and him. She also knew that she had to get in a position to take care of both of them, and I am not sure she could have done that while on assistance. Now at 24 she could move out, but we are living like the "Waltons". I homeschool her son, with my boys, while she is at work, she contributes financially and to the home, the kids are very close, but she is the parent and we do not co-parent although it must feel that way sometimes. We are even talking about buying a piece of property together where we both have houses on the property but the kids can run back and forth. But there are many people who have not been taught values, and do not have a backup system, who are going to need help. I would hate to see us become a nation where children are punished because of the choices of their parents. We can do better than that. At least I hope so.

[KDoty]

One thing you may want to do is check out chrismartenson.com. He's a PhD biochemist who got interested in the economy and put together a free set of videos called the "Crash Course" that is an excellent summary of some of the concerns that have been mentioned earlier in this thread. You can access these videos here - http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse or on youtube for free.

 

He also has a section about getting started with preparation here - http://www.chrismartenson.com/page/what-should-i-do. I would highly recommend looking through that as well.

 

 

 

Great info...thanks for sharing!:lurk5:

[Joanne]

Restructure welfare so that it has a goal of getting people self-sufficient as soon as possible.

 

We have to stop making it profitable for people not to work by providing them with everything. Deal with the root causes of poverty instead of just throwing money at the outcome.

 

We have to stop making it profitable for teens to have babies.

 

.

 

Do you know what percentage of the national debt is due to social programs such as welfare, WIC, tanf? Last I looked, it was a miniscule percentage.

 

Add to that the reality that the is a wider *perception* of fraud than actual fraud, I doubt if those social programs are much of a factor at all.

[In2why]

Do you know what percentage of the national debt is due to social programs such as welfare, WIC, tanf? Last I looked, it was a miniscule percentage.

 

Add to that the reality that the is a wider *perception* of fraud than actual fraud, I doubt if those social programs are much of a factor at all.

 

 

But it makes a convenient target, sadly.

[BBG580]

Do you know what percentage of the national debt is due to social programs such as welfare, WIC, tanf? Last I looked, it was a miniscule percentage.

 

Add to that the reality that the is a wider *perception* of fraud than actual fraud, I doubt if those social programs are much of a factor at all.

 

Yeah, I've always wondered why more people aren't outraged by corporate welfare which costs us a heck of a lot more than any social program out there.

[Jennifer3141]

Is anyone else nervous that what the governor of Wisconsin is fighting the unions of teachers, social workers, etc. but that police, firefighters, state police aren't facing any kinds of cuts? It feels like they are keeping the internal almost-miltary happy but throwing everyone else to the wolves.

 

Jen

[delaney]

Looting can come without the nation falling into complete chaos. Again Katrina is an example, or the LA riots, or any number of natural or man made disasters. I think about the recent H1N1 scare. Luckily it wasn't a pandemic, but my grandmother told me stories about living through the the Spainish flu, where panic set in. We know that a pandemic will happen again, perhaps in our lifetime and perhaps not. There are many ways that the nations financial institutions will keep on collecting, but pockets of the country can become like "Lord of the Flies". Or it could be as simple as the power grid going off line for an extended time period. My son was born on 8/15/2003 and there were widespread power outages and the reports were that we were lucky because if one more major station had failed it could have thrown the entire eastern United States into darkness, for a good long while, and our infrastructure is not getting better, but worse.

 

As I said I don't feel like a doomsdayer. I don't subscribe to the world coming to an end, or that our government will fall apart, but I think taking basic preparations to be more self sufficient isn't a bad idea. The depression happened, pandemics happen, terrorist attacks happen, or even something as simple as hurricanes or earthquakes. My biggest thought process is that in case of any of those things I don't want to rely on the government to rescue me, feed me, or protect me. Plus if nothing happens then we are still debt free and able to use our discretionary funds to travel, help others, and it basically gives us more freedom.

No I get not being in debt but there is no way we can get rid of a $700K mortgage so I see no point in even thinking about it. I do have the consolation that I have 30,000 gallons of fresh water in my backyard:tongue_smilie:

[Mergath]

Do you know what percentage of the national debt is due to social programs such as welfare, WIC, tanf? Last I looked, it was a miniscule percentage.

 

Add to that the reality that the is a wider *perception* of fraud than actual fraud, I doubt if those social programs are much of a factor at all.

 

:iagree: The amount of money we continually pump into the military industrial complex, for example, is unimaginably vast compared to the loose change we spend on poor people. Also, most people on those programs DO work, and they work hard... but $7.25 an hour just isn't a living wage anymore.

 

Too many Americans complain when the things they want to buy are expensive, and they complain when people need food assistance and welfare to live. You can't have it both ways, people. If you want to get people off welfare, you have to be willing to pay more for the goods and services those people provide.

[cjzimmer1]

Is anyone else nervous that what the governor of Wisconsin is fighting the unions of teachers, social workers, etc. but that police, firefighters, state police aren't facing any kinds of cuts? It feels like they are keeping the internal almost-miltary happy but throwing everyone else to the wolves.

 

Jen

 

Nope, because between the teachers union has the best benefits of any group in WI. The state workers have it pretty cushy but the teacher's union is even worse/better (depending on your point of view). I don't know the exact numbers but I know both of these groups contribute none or very little to retirement and receive full retirement benefits after 30 years. They pay pennies on the dollar toward their medical expenses. The police and fightfighters are city/county workers so they aren't getting the same deals (or cushy benefits) as the state workers. That's why they aren't targeted - they aren't paid by the state. Obviously the state police would be paid by the state but over the years I've never heard anyone say they want to become at state police for the benefits. However, I know many people who are teachers or work for the state solely because of the benefits.

[MyFourSons]

Is anyone else nervous that what the governor of Wisconsin is fighting the unions of teachers, social workers, etc. but that police, firefighters, state police aren't facing any kinds of cuts? It feels like they are keeping the internal almost-miltary happy but throwing everyone else to the wolves.

 

Jen

 

I taught in a private school in Wisconsin for several years. The salaries that many teachers in Wisconsin enjoy are not sustainable, and it is virtually impossible to fire a teacher even if they are incompetent. I am of course all for teachers being paid well, but when teachers are calling in sick to protest the fact that the governor wants to give them smaller raises (they enjoy annual 6-7% raises now, regardless of their job performance), and many parents must take off work with no pay because schools are closed, to me that is not a person who is dedicated to their students and their students well being.

 

They are not being thrown to the wolves, they are being asked to take smaller raises that are subject to voter approval, and pay a 12% premium for their health insurance. That is still much better than private sector jobs, like the one I had. The governor would not be introducing this legislation if the teacher unions were willing to negotiate, they have flat out refused to make any concessions in this area.

 

Wisconsin is broke, the voters decided to elect this Republican knowing that he had promised to do this during the campaign. So, obviously the people that employ and pay the teachers in Wisconsin, as in the tax payers, have had enough with the stranglehold the Unions have had over the state budgets.

 

Democracy means majority rules, not special interest groups, and certianly we can't give in to "mob rule." The democrats who "fled" to avoid a vote are undermining the democratic process and are cowards. It is no coincidence that unions contribute heavily to Democrats.

Edited February 19, 2011 by MyFourSons
Spelling

[sassyscrapperinid]

I feel that the main problem is families though and not welfare. Over 50% of all children born in the US are born to single mothers. Of course not all of them are on government assistance. But you can't legistlate values. And if you could then it becomes which values. I don't want to turn this political...yet it is hard to talk about these issues without it having a political component, so I am going to try to tread lightly, which isn't the norm for me. :tongue_smilie: Since we can't legistlate family values, and that isn't a buzzword for religion because I know plenty of moral people who are not religious, and you want to stop people from having children they can't take care of, then there are only a few solutions. You have a strong economy so that everyone who wants jobs can have them, you provide birth control education and stop making it profitable to ignore it, and this is the biggie, cue head spins, you can't fight abortion and at the same time insist on not providing for the children as a result. Welfare was reformed by Clinton and Gingrich, and workfare became the norm, requiring either paying or volunteer work to get assistance. It also limits the time a person can be on assistance to 5 years, so the "welfare queen" myth is finally dead. But it comes down to personal responsibility as well. I feel like we taught/teach our children values, we educate them about responsibility and choices, yet my daughter became an unwed mother at the age of 19. Abortion was not a personal option, we had recently adopted our youngest son from the system, and while I believe in adoption I also know it is built on loss, so that wasn't an option, so that left parenting. We could have thrown her out (we would never), insisted she got herself into this, so it was her problem and had her get government aid, or we could help her, help herself. She qualified for assistance but we felt like we as her family is her welfare system. I also didn't want her getting used to it, or seeing it as a long term option. She finished her education, then went to work and we provided daycare and a place for her and our grandchild to live. But she is the parent and she is responsible for herself and him. She also knew that she had to get in a position to take care of both of them, and I am not sure she could have done that while on assistance. Now at 24 she could move out, but we are living like the "Waltons". I homeschool her son, with my boys, while she is at work, she contributes financially and to the home, the kids are very close, but she is the parent and we do not co-parent although it must feel that way sometimes. We are even talking about buying a piece of property together where we both have houses on the property but the kids can run back and forth. But there are many people who have not been taught values, and do not have a backup system, who are going to need help. I would hate to see us become a nation where children are punished because of the choices of their parents. We can do better than that. At least I hope so.

 

I think this is just awesome!! Almost brought tears to my eyes.:grouphug::grouphug:

[Mergath]

But there are many people who have not been taught values, and do not have a backup system, who are going to need help.

 

I agree with some of your post, but this sentence does bother me. It isn't just the people who haven't been taught values that need help. With the economy the way it is, even the people who have been meticulous in planning their lives can find themselves unable to buy food or pay their bills. Our dd was a complete surprise- I'd been told by a doctor I was infertile thanks to my PCOS, which obviously wasn't true- and my husband has been looking for a job that pays a living wage for over a year now. Luckily, it's looking like a temp job he has might turn into a long-term job (fingers crossed) but up until now, if we wouldn't have gotten food assistance, we would have starved. You can be the most moral, upright person in the world, but if your montly income is less than your rent, it's not going to matter.

 

For most people, it isn't that they were "never taught values," but that they ended up in a bad situation because of circumstances completely out of their control, like job outsourcing and the fact that there are far more job-seekers than jobs. It would be much more beneficial, I think, to try to figure out how to fix the situation, not to sit and explain to all the poor people in this country how their situation is their own fault.

[Trish]

Shoot, if this economy goes down in the way I think it could (and might), NONE of us who don't live on a farm are going to be able to make ends meet.

 

100 years ago people were pretty self-reliant. Not anymore!

[Snowfall]

I taught in a private school in Wisconsin for several years. The salaries that many teachers in Wisconsin enjoy are not sustainable, and it is virtually impossible to fire a teacher even if they are incompetent. I am of course all for teachers being paid well, but when teachers are calling in sick to protest the fact that the governor wants to give them smaller raises (they enjoy annual 6-7% raises now, regardless of their job performance), and many parents must take off work with no pay because schools are closed, to me that is not a person who is dedicated to their students and their students well being.

 

They are not being thrown to the wolves, they are being asked to take smaller raises that are subject to voter approval, and pay a 12% premium for their health insurance. That is still much better than private sector jobs, like the one I had. The governor would not be introducing this legislation if the teacher unions were willing to negotiate, they have flat out refused to make any concessions in this area.

 

Wisconsin is broke, the voters decided to elect this Republican knowing that he had promised to do this during the campaign. So, obviously the people that employ and pay the teachers in Wisconsin, as in the tax payers, have had enough with the stranglehold the Unions have had over the state budgets.

 

Democracy means majority rules, not special interest groups, and certianly we can't give in to "mob rule." The democrats who "fled" to avoid a vote are undermining the democratic process and are cowards. It is no coincidence that unions contribute heavily to Democrats.

 

Does anything at all in this post address the fact that the governor is attempting to take apart the government workers' unions, rather than bargain with them? Rhetorical question, the answer to which is, "No!" So essentially you either aren't aware that he's attempting to bust up the unions or you just don't care. He could've attempted to bargain with them, but he didn't. He went straight for trying to make it illegal for WI state employees to bargain for anything but their salaries, while at the same time attempting to freeze their salaries. Sweet deal for him. lol I love how, when teachers dare to fight for their right to organize, suddenly it's because they don't care about students. This sounds suspiciously like all the people who said anyone who questioned the president about WMD in Iraq or was against the Patriot Act was unAmerican. It's always a great fallback to accuse people you disagree with of being immoral, isn't it? It doesn't further the conversation in any meaningful way, but I guess it's fun.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Snowfall

[Joy at Home]

but when teachers are calling in sick to protest the fact that the governor wants to give them smaller raises (they enjoy annual 6-7% raises now, regardless of their job performance), and many parents must take off work with no pay because schools are closed, to me that is not a person who is dedicated to their students and their students well being.

 

Does anything at all in this post address the fact that the governor is attempting to take apart the government workers' unions, rather than bargain with them? Rhetorical question, the answer to which is, "No!" So essentially you either aren't aware that he's attempting to bust up the unions or you just don't care. He could've attempted to bargain with them, but he didn't. He went straight for trying to make it illegal for WI state employees to bargain for anything but their salaries, while at the same time attempting to freeze their salaries. Sweet deal for him. lol I love how, when teachers dare to fight for their right to organize, suddenly it's because they don't care about students.

 

So organizing a sick day call in at the students' expense is a tactic you condone?

 

 

This sounds suspiciously like all the people who said anyone who questioned the president about WMD in Iraq or was against the Patriot Act was unAmerican. It's always a great fallback to accuse people you disagree with of being immoral, isn't it? It doesn't further the conversation in any meaningful way, but I guess it's fun.

 

:confused:

 

Lisa

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Yeah, I've always wondered why more people aren't outraged by corporate welfare which costs us a heck of a lot more than any social program out there.

 

:iagree::hurray:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I don't believe the sky is falling because I don't listen to fear monger's like Glen Beck:tongue_smilie:

 

OTOH I believe in hard work, frugality, saving, caring for one another, and sensible emergency preparations:001_smile:

[Mergath]

I don't believe the sky is falling because I don't listen to fear monger's like Glen Beck:tongue_smilie:

 

But then, few things sell gold like good old fear. :glare: Whenever I hear someone say to invest in gold in preparation for the collapse of civilization, I know they're a fan of Glenn Beck.

[In2why]

I agree with some of your post, but this sentence does bother me. It isn't just the people who haven't been taught values that need help. With the economy the way it is, even the people who have been meticulous in planning their lives can find themselves unable to buy food or pay their bills. Our dd was a complete surprise- I'd been told by a doctor I was infertile thanks to my PCOS, which obviously wasn't true- and my husband has been looking for a job that pays a living wage for over a year now. Luckily, it's looking like a temp job he has might turn into a long-term job (fingers crossed) but up until now, if we wouldn't have gotten food assistance, we would have starved. You can be the most moral, upright person in the world, but if your montly income is less than your rent, it's not going to matter.

 

For most people, it isn't that they were "never taught values," but that they ended up in a bad situation because of circumstances completely out of their control, like job outsourcing and the fact that there are far more job-seekers than jobs. It would be much more beneficial, I think, to try to figure out how to fix the situation, not to sit and explain to all the poor people in this country how their situation is their own fault.

 

 

I agree, and if you read that sentence by itself I can see where it might seem like I was judging people who need help as not having values. That is not my intent at all. I realize there are many people in bad situations through no fault of their own. I also believe that many people did make bad decisions though. We as a society have a recent history of wanting it all and wanting it now. Our homes have doubled in size since 1960 and people want to keep up with the Jones's. People eat out more then they cook and they pay for it with a credit card and only pay the minimum balance, meaning they are still paying for that dinner 20 years later. Go to the dump and take a look around. We never fix anything, we throw it away and buy a new one. Taking a look at those habits is also part of the solution and we personally can do a lot more about fixing our lifestyles then fixing our government which happens at a snails pace.

I support those that need assistance getting it. I know it is a small part of our overall debt. I do wish that families and communities were better at providing a safety net, but if they can't or won't then we can't let people starve and call ourselves a great nation.

[Mergath]

I agree, and if you read that sentence by itself I can see where it might seem like I was judging people who need help as not having values. That is not my intent at all. I realize there are many people in bad situations through no fault of their own. I also believe that many people did make bad decisions though. We as a society have a recent history of wanting it all and wanting it now. Our homes have doubled in size since 1960 and people want to keep up with the Jones's. People eat out more then they cook and they pay for it with a credit card and only pay the minimum balance, meaning they are still paying for that dinner 20 years later. Go to the dump and take a look around. We never fix anything, we throw it away and buy a new one. Taking a look at those habits is also part of the solution and we personally can do a lot more about fixing our lifestyles then fixing our government which happens at a snails pace.

I support those that need assistance getting it. I know it is a small part of our overall debt. I do wish that families and communities were better at providing a safety net, but if they can't or won't then we can't let people starve and call ourselves a great nation.

 

People like that do annoy me. We live in the smallest apartment known to man, buy everything used, keep everything forever unless it is literally dissolving into irretrievable pieces, and haven't paid for cable or internet (we use random floating wi-fi when it's available) in I don't know how long. And we still can't afford to buy food without help. *sigh*

 

I should find out where the local dump is- I could probably get quite a bit of good, easily-fixable stuff there. :D

[DawnM]

:iagree:

 

I don't believe the sky is falling because I don't listen to fear monger's like Glen Beck:tongue_smilie:

 

OTOH I believe in hard work, frugality, saving, caring for one another, and sensible emergency preparations:001_smile:

[Denisemomof4]

 

I should find out where the local dump is- I could probably get quite a bit of good, easily-fixable stuff there. :D

 

our dump has a good/usable room and I bring TONS of stuff there, some brand new. I had to sort through three households of stuff. I even brought Hummels and other collectibles there because I was too tired to try to sell anything.

 

Dh brought home a leather couch from the dump. I was NOT happy but ds18 is going to be moving out soon and he's LOVING his new couch. :D I was surprised at the shape it was in! It looks brand new but someone obviously spilled a chemical on one cushion and the leather is faded in a line. NOt bad for a kid about to get their first place. Ds doesn't even notice the fade mark. He doesn't notice the dents on his car either. :rolleyes:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

our dump has a good/usable room and I bring TONS of stuff there, some brand new. I had to sort through three households of stuff. I even brought Hummels and other collectibles there because I was too tired to try to sell anything.

 

Dh brought home a leather couch from the dump. I was NOT happy but ds18 is going to be moving out soon and he's LOVING his new couch. :D I was surprised at the shape it was in! It looks brand new but someone obviously spilled a chemical on one cushion and the leather is faded in a line. NOt bad for a kid about to get their first place. Ds doesn't even notice the fade mark. He doesn't notice the dents on his car either. :rolleyes:

 

Was donating the Hummels and other collectibles to charity a possibility such as the Salvation Army or Goodwill? You could have gotten a tax write off and helped others at the same time:)

Edited February 19, 2011 by priscilla