CC: The role of WOMEN in Ministry?

[Heather in Neverland]

Simple (or not so simple) question:

 

What do you believe is the role of women in ministry in the local church?

[Mejane]

Well, coming from a UU church with a female minister, I'd say it's the same as the role of men, ie. anything they want to/are qualified to do.

[Pam Wilhelm]

Coming from a religion that was founded by a woman (Christian Science) I think women present a unique perspective to the church.

[K-FL]

Coming from a Reformed perspective: Women as teachers of women & children or as Evangelist, but not as Sr. Elder (pastors.)

[8circles]

I believe God might call women to anything he would call a man to.

[TravelingChris]

I am currently a member of a church (PCA) that doesn't have women as elders, deacons or Sr. Elders (pastors). In this particular church, women do have other important roles so I am not as uncomfortable as I would be otherwise. However, I do know that I prefer women having a more prominent role. Our church doesn't have a Christmas Eve service and so we have to find another to attend. We have gone for two years to a local Methodist church. Last year, they had a Male Sr. Pastor and a female associate pastor. This year they had a Female Sr. Pastor and all the associates were female. I didn't like that either.

[Dmmetler]

This is a hard one for me, because I came from United Methodist to LCMS. Two of my best friends growing up have been through seminary, and one is an associate pastor now-she's also my daughter's godmother. In most ways, the LCMS church is a much better fit for me, and I think it's a good church to raise my daughter in, but this is a difficult point, and was one which led to multiple discussions with different ministers and people in the church before I made the decision to join. Not so much for me-my callings tend to be to teach, not to lead anyway, but because I have a daughter, and I cannot predict where God will call her. I do not want her to be forced to make a choice between a church she's grown up in and loves and what God wills for her. And I've known too many good female ministers who very obviously were called to minister to believe that God isn't doing it.

 

Ultimately, after a lot of prayer and discussions with people on both sides, I decided that the LCMS church is where God wants me and my daughter right now. He knows what he's doing.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Well, coming from a UU church with a female minister, I'd say it's the same as the role of men, ie. anything they want to/are qualified to do.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Mimm]

I have a hard time with this. I was raised to think that women shouldn't be in positions of authority over men. When I was a child, we attended a church where the Children's Coordinator was a woman. My parents never liked her, and when I asked why, that was the answer I received. She was in authority over male Sunday school teachers. In hindsight, I realize she was a nice, energetic, creative person who managed a very active Children's ministry at a largish church. She was never anything but nice to me, but as a child I was reserved toward her and thought badly of her because of what my parents believed.

 

As an adult, I don't see why women shouldn't be allowed to serve in just about any area of ministry. Except, say, leader of a men's Bible study. :)

[Brenda in FL]

Coming from a Reformed perspective: Women as teachers of women & children or as Evangelist, but not as Sr. Elder (pastors.)

 

:iagree: This - basically, but also able to serve in other areas such as directors of certain ministries.

 

Personally, I want my sons to see men in the pastoral roles in the churches we attend and even teaching roles to children (which doesn't happen to often!). Growing up - women play so many roles in their lives. I want them to see men in action living and sharing their faith - that it's not just women that are concerned with Christian growth.

 

Like another poster - I have visited churches with female pastors (or for that matter - other traditions that I may not agree with) I almost always come away with a view that the kingdom of God is greater than I may define it. When you hear a female pastor teaching the same truths from the Bible that a man would preach - I realize that the issue is much more that a simple right or wrong. Paul even defended those that were preaching the good news even if they were not properly approved by the apostles. (Now if the church is not preaching the truth of the Bible - that's a whole 'nother issue!)

 

But nevertheless, I have to say that I believe the Bible reserves the position of elder(pastor) to a man.

[Nakia]

I believe God might call women to anything he would call a man to.

 

:iagree:

 

At my church, we have women pastors, elders, and teachers.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

When I look at women like Amy Carmichael and Gladys Aylward who both started orphanges in India and China in extreme conditions I think, God uses anyone who is available and has an open heart to hear Him.

 

God created women in His image too. We are wonderful helpmates, but, we also have many gifts that work in His Kingdom to bring glory to Him. I think the church limits itself when it dismisses women as a possibility in ministry.

[eaglei]

I believe God might call women to anything he would call a man to.

 

:iagree:

[eaglei]

When I look at women like Amy Carmichael and Gladys Aylward who both started orphanges in India and China in extreme conditions I think, God uses anyone who is available and has an open heart to hear Him.

 

God created women in His image too. We are wonderful helpmates, but, we also have many gifts that work in His Kingdom to bring glory to Him. I think the church limits itself when it dismisses women as a possibility in ministry.

 

:iagree:

[justamouse]

same as anything a man would do. Minister, what have you.

[SonshineLearner]

Hey Heather :)

 

Women should be in Biblical authority over other women and children who aren't "men" yet. In other words, they shouldn't be teaching in Church or Bible Study with Men who are purposely there. But :) They can be President :)

My dad actually wrote his Dissertation on this question... as well as...

 

http://www.amazon.com/Role-Women-Ministry-Today/dp/0801020069/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1294072556&sr=8-14

 

If it looks like a book that would be interesting to read, I could see about sending you one :)

[Aubrey]

I was raised in a denomination that didn't allow women to do anything other than teach SS & women's Bible study, but as a kid, I'd pretend I was a preacher. I guess the full ramifications of "girl" hadn't sunk in yet.

 

Now? Gosh this is a hard question, & it was one of the first classes I took in the Bible school I attended. The 1st half of the book we read was awesome in refuting the common reasons for not letting women lead, but the 2nd half was really disappointing & weak--& that was the part where the guy was making *his* argument *for* women in ministry.

 

It's a question I haven't been able to answer. I tend to rely on the fact that God hasn't called me to lead & I don't want to judge others to sidestep it, but the truth is something more complicated. I'm extremely uncomfortable w/ women in leadership because of the way I was raised, but I'm equally uncomfortable w/ women *not* being allowed in leadership, because my spirit simply doesn't agree w/ the idea.

 

It's also frustrating because, as a woman, I can't really discuss it. Any thoughts I have about women being in ministry are immediately chalked up to sin nature & wanting power.

 

My favorite, though, is how Eve is cited as an example of woman's frailty: she was deceived, so women can't lead. Because they're susceptible to deception.

 

Whereas Adam did what? *Willfully* sinned? :lol: Yeah, that's quality leadership material there!

[kalphs]

As an adult, I don't see why women shouldn't be allowed to serve in just about any area of ministry. Except, say, leader of a men's Bible study. :)

:iagree:

I my opinion God reveres the role women in history.

Look at Eve, Deborah, Mary, Elizabeth, Mary Magdalene etc...

Each woman was chosen/called by God for her own unique area of ministry.

[hillfarm]

We are fundamental evangelicals. We believe a solid, Biblical interpretation of the role of women in ministry.

 

The Bible talks of female prophetesses in the Old Testament, Moses' sister, for example. It also talks about women serving as deaconesses, teaching the other women and children of the church, evangelism, care and sending of missionaries, and other specific tasks.

 

Although we view women as made special in the eyes of God, we do not believe that they were given the same strengths and nature of men, and therefore do not believe both to be equally skilled at the same work. We believe in each gender maximizing their efforts in their areas of greatest ability instead of wasting effort striving to do the work of the other but forever destined to be a lesser version of the other. There is plenty of work to go around for both genders.

 

For me personally, I find that if I focus on the work that is clearly set aside for women in the Bible, then I don't have time to worry about what the men are supposed to be doing. That is between them and God! I've got enough opportunities and challenges in my realm to keep me busy for at least one lifetime!;)

[Hannah C.]

This is one of those things I have yet to figure out. I've read the Scriptures on it, and I don't know what they mean!

 

Women can minister in many, many areas, and women deacons, for example, do not trouble me. I don't think anyone suggests that women lead male-only Bible studies, and with good reason. :) It doesn't bother me if a woman holds a position which means she would be over some men, either.

 

I would be uncomfortable with women pastors/priests/bishops/etc. I don't know if that's my human frailty or if the basis for it which people argue is in the Bible is actually, well, in the Bible...:confused:

[justamouse]

We are fundamental evangelicals. We believe a solid, Biblical interpretation of the role of women in ministry.

 

 

And so others interpretations aren't biblical? See, you get yourself in sticky taffy when you say things like that.

 

Priscilla and Aquila? A couple, but she was a driving force in helping and not as an underling.

[OnTheBrink]

Women absolutely have roles in ministry, just not as pastors or elders. Women are no less than men in God's eyes, but their duties and roles are different. Not lesser, but different. My pastor wrote a paper on this topic, in three parts.

 

http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/23-doctrine/563-the-role-of-women-in-ministry-part-1

 

http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/23-doctrine/564-the-role-of-women-in-ministry-part-2

 

http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/23-doctrine/565-the-role-of-women-in-ministry-part-3

[Matryoshka]

Well, coming from a UU church with a female minister, I'd say it's the same as the role of men, ie. anything they want to/are qualified to do.

 

:iagree: I'd guess (but have no stats for it; based more on anecdotal observation), that in both my church's denominations (UCC and UUA) women ministers are probably in the majority. Our minister is a woman, and the deacons are probably split 50/50ish. The committee that runs the church (we're congregational and so there's no hierarchy and we hire our own minister) is also well-mixed.

[Mimm]

We are fundamental evangelicals. We believe a solid, Biblical interpretation of the role of women in ministry.

 

The Bible talks of female prophetesses in the Old Testament, Moses' sister, for example. It also talks about women serving as deaconesses, teaching the other women and children of the church, evangelism, care and sending of missionaries, and other specific tasks.

 

Although we view women as made special in the eyes of God, we do not believe that they were given the same strengths and nature of men, and therefore do not believe both to be equally skilled at the same work. We believe in each gender maximizing their efforts in their areas of greatest ability instead of wasting effort striving to do the work of the other but forever destined to be a lesser version of the other. There is plenty of work to go around for both genders.

 

For me personally, I find that if I focus on the work that is clearly set aside for women in the Bible, then I don't have time to worry about what the men are supposed to be doing. That is between them and God! I've got enough opportunities and challenges in my realm to keep me busy for at least one lifetime!;)

 

Please don't take this as an attack on you personally, just throwing this out there because I was raised with these ideas and but what I don't understand about this line of thinking is that each person is different and has different strengths. Can you (general you) really say that just because a person is female that she doesn't have good leadership qualities? I'm sure we all know women who would make good leaders. I think it's wrong to define and limit what people are allowed to do with their lives based solely on their gender.

 

I'm extremely uncomfortable w/ women in leadership because of the way I was raised, but I'm equally uncomfortable w/ women *not* being allowed in leadership, because my spirit simply doesn't agree w/ the idea.

 

:iagree: I'm trying to make myself be less uncomfortable with the idea of a female pastor. People always say, "Oh women have different roles, equal but different." But there's nothing equal about it. I simply don't buy that.

[SonshineLearner]

.... Can you (general you) really say that just because a person is female that she doesn't have good leadership qualities? I'm sure we all know women who would make good leaders. I think it's wrong to define and limit what people are allowed to do with their lives based solely on their gender.

......:iagree: I'm trying to make myself be less uncomfortable with the idea of a female pastor. People always say, "Oh women have different roles, equal but different." But there's nothing equal about it. I simply don't buy that.

 

For me, it has absolutely nothing to do with women who make good or even Better leaders. It has everything to do with the fact that I believe God has put men in the position.... whether they want to fulfill it or not... or being in authority of the home and the place where we all meet... called church ;) It doesn't mean that we wouldn't be more efficient... perhaps we would be. It doesn't mean that I think all men are great leaders. BUT, when there are men who will lead.... they should. Now... if you look at a particular family where the man leads..... I... for my daughter.... want a man who leads sacrificially. Not one who leads for selfish pleasure.

 

In Church, I want a Pastor who calls men to their role as Leaders and Servers in their home.... to women as the nurturers and supporters of their husbands...and to children as the coming generation. Children who respect and love God, their parents and their siblings ;)

 

And, I'm not even saying that I think women can't work outside of their houses.... Just that they support their husbands and children :) (Just didn't want that part misinterpreted...)

 

:)

[Aubrey]

Please don't take this as an attack on you personally, just throwing this out there because I was raised with these ideas and but what I don't understand about this line of thinking is that each person is different and has different strengths. Can you (general you) really say that just because a person is female that she doesn't have good leadership qualities? I'm sure we all know women who would make good leaders. I think it's wrong to define and limit what people are allowed to do with their lives based solely on their gender.[\QUOTE]

 

Since I was raised this way, I hope it's ok if I answer. It's not that women would be less qualified to lead than men, but that God has not called them. God's plans for people are not based on their strengths but on his plan, on glorifying himself. Sometimes he uses the foolish things to confound the wise.

 

Iow, qualifications/skills have nothing to do with it. I can accept that part--Moses wasn't "qualified;" David wasn't "qualified." They were called.

 

 

I'm trying to make myself be less uncomfortable with the idea of a female pastor. People always say, "Oh women have different roles, equal but different." But there's nothing equal about it. I simply don't buy that.

 

Yeah...having been on campus at a seminary that strongly believes this way, I can say absolutely that while this *may* be God's plan, it works out to anything but equal. "Equal but different" reminds me an awful lot of Jim Crowe, kwim?

 

I'm not even after equal, though. I'm totally ok w/ different. I have a problem, though, w/ gender differences in the eyes of God. Maybe that's silly--Joseph couldn't be the mother of God because he was a man--was that unfair? I couldn't be the mother of God (in part) because I was born in the wrong century. God chose that, too--am I going to hold it against Him? Nope. I'm ok w/ trusting that all of that was his plan.

 

In some sense, that means I should be ok w/ him making me a woman, too. (I am, actually.) But...if there's no Jew nor Gentile, man nor woman in the eyes of God...well, can you imagine if only Jews were allowed to evangelize in the 1st c? If Paul had said that the gospel is free to all, but only full-blooded Jews can preach it--wwwd?

 

Maybe we just accept that God is sovereign. I *do* see that line of reasoning. It just doesn't...sit right. And since the Bible has so often been used to bind people instead of free them, I choose to withold judgment on the matter. I choose to wait for God to reveal his plan, if he will, so that either a) it makes sense to me that women not lead or b) it makes sense to me that women do lead, Scripturally.

 

So there ya go. I don't know. :D

[Parrothead]

This is one of the very few things about the Catholic faith the just bugs me to no end. Back when I was a kid girls couldn't be alter servers. It was thought that being an alter boy would help lead the boys to the priesthood. Well, look what's happened to the priesthood. Alter boys have gone the same route. There are enough boys to meet the need every Sunday. So now we have alter servers. Dd is one and has been since she was 7.

 

I don't ever see it happening, but I think the Catholic church needs to either let priests be married or let women serve as priests. Otherwise the Church in the US will be in bigger trouble than it is now. My priest serves 2 parishes and a mission. He travels 40 miles to say Mass at another church every weekend.

[*********]

We are fundamental evangelicals. We believe a solid, Biblical interpretation of the role of women in ministry.

 

The Bible talks of female prophetesses in the Old Testament, Moses' sister, for example. It also talks about women serving as deaconesses, teaching the other women and children of the church, evangelism, care and sending of missionaries, and other specific tasks.

 

Although we view women as made special in the eyes of God, we do not believe that they were given the same strengths and nature of men, and therefore do not believe both to be equally skilled at the same work. We believe in each gender maximizing their efforts in their areas of greatest ability instead of wasting effort striving to do the work of the other but forever destined to be a lesser version of the other. There is plenty of work to go around for both genders.

 

For me personally, I find that if I focus on the work that is clearly set aside for women in the Bible, then I don't have time to worry about what the men are supposed to be doing. That is between them and God! I've got enough opportunities and challenges in my realm to keep me busy for at least one lifetime!;)

 

This is very close to what I believe as well.

 

To add more specifics, I do not believe that a Christian woman should have any authority over a man, especially in regards to teaching. Dh and I would not meet with a church who allowed women to teach men. In fact, it is a primary reason we have left fellowship in the past.

 

To speak more specifically to what my family does, I do not speak/teach during our corporate time of worship where the church (both men and women) gather together. I believe the Bible specifically prohibits that. If, at the end of the teaching/teachings that the men brought, I still have a question or something I need more clarity on, I will ask my husband privately; probably once we've left the meeting. I would, however, share openly in a women's only group, or with children, including boys who are not yet men. I may speak in a less formal/corporate bible study that is attended by both men and women, where we are studying scripture, and no one is bringing a 'teaching'. However, even in that situation, I am careful not to 'teach'. I let the Holy Spirit be my guide on when to open my mouth, and when to be quiet.

 

I believe the Bible gives many, many roles to women. However, it is very clear, IMO, that the head of woman is man. There IS an established 'chain of command', if you will; Christ, man, woman. I, personally, glory in my position that the Lord has given me. I would not want the responsibilites my husband has in regards to leading our family spiritually.

 

I am also well aware that there are many, MANY women (and men) who do not agree with our family's understanding of the Scriptures in this regard. :001_smile:

[*********]

Since I was raised this way, I hope it's ok if I answer. It's not that women would be less qualified to lead than men, but that God has not called them. God's plans for people are not based on their strengths but on his plan, on glorifying himself. Sometimes he uses the foolish things to confound the wise.

 

Iow, qualifications/skills have nothing to do with it. I can accept that part--Moses wasn't "qualified;" David wasn't "qualified." They were called.

 

Yeah...having been on campus at a seminary that strongly believes this way, I can say absolutely that while this *may* be God's plan, it works out to anything but equal. "Equal but different" reminds me an awful lot of Jim Crowe, kwim?

 

I'm not even after equal, though. I'm totally ok w/ different. I have a problem, though, w/ gender differences in the eyes of God. Maybe that's silly--Joseph couldn't be the mother of God because he was a man--was that unfair? I couldn't be the mother of God (in part) because I was born in the wrong century. God chose that, too--am I going to hold it against Him? Nope. I'm ok w/ trusting that all of that was his plan.

 

In some sense, that means I should be ok w/ him making me a woman, too. (I am, actually.) But...if there's no Jew nor Gentile, man nor woman in the eyes of God...well, can you imagine if only Jews were allowed to evangelize in the 1st c? If Paul had said that the gospel is free to all, but only full-blooded Jews can preach it--wwwd?

 

Maybe we just accept that God is sovereign. I *do* see that line of reasoning. It just doesn't...sit right. And since the Bible has so often been used to bind people instead of free them, I choose to withold judgment on the matter. I choose to wait for God to reveal his plan, if he will, so that either a) it makes sense to me that women not lead or b) it makes sense to me that women do lead, Scripturally.

 

So there ya go. I don't know. :D

 

Aubrey, I have no idea if this will help, but I want to share it with you.

 

For me, my role in the church and my home became more clear, and more of a blessing to me and those I serve, when I laid down my desire to be 'equal' to anyone.

 

I deserve nothing but to be cast into Hell. It is by God's grace alone that I receive anything, including salvation. Once I really 'got' that I deserve not just nothing, but eternal ****ation, it became easier for me to accept that 'equality', the way the world teaches it, is not something to be sought after. I do not wish to be 'equal' to my husband. I do not wish to be 'equal' to anyone. I deserve nothing; therefore, every blessing I have is an overwhelming gift from God. I am abundantly blessed that He allows me to serve him in the ways that I do. I am thrilled to be a daughter of the King, who allows me to serve my husband as I serve Christ. It is a blessing to fulfill our Scriptural roles in marriage and in the Church.

 

Please don't misunderstand; I'm not saying I'm perfect. Far from it. I'm not saying I don't struggle against my flesh; I do seem to do that daily. :) But I do know that the more I not only 'accept' my role, but glory in it, the more blessed I am.

 

Hope that made sense. :)

[Mrs Mungo]

Priscilla and Aquila? A couple, but she was a driving force in helping and not as an underling.

 

Chloe? Mary, mother of John Mark? Lydia? Nympha? The "elect lady" of II John?

 

What about Old Testament women such as Deborah and Huldah?

[justamouse]

Chloe? Mary, mother of John Mark? Lydia? Nympha? The "elect lady" of II John?

 

What about Old Testament women such as Deborah and Huldah?

 

Yes. Those too. This is me trying to not get banned. These threads...:glare:

[Mrs Mungo]

Heather, if you're considering the idea that women should never have authority over a man, how would that impact your job is a principal of a Christian school? Is that why you're thinking about this?

[Mrs Mungo]

Aubrey, I have no idea if this will help, but I want to share it with you.

 

For me, my role in the church and my home became more clear, and more of a blessing to me and those I serve, when I laid down my desire to be 'equal' to anyone.

 

I deserve nothing but to be cast into Hell. It is by God's grace alone that I receive anything, including salvation. Once I really 'got' that I deserve not just nothing, but eternal ****ation, it became easier for me to accept that 'equality', the way the world teaches it, is not something to be sought after. I do not wish to be 'equal' to my husband. I do not wish to be 'equal' to anyone. I deserve nothing; therefore, every blessing I have is an overwhelming gift from God. I am abundantly blessed that He allows me to serve him in the ways that I do. I am thrilled to be a daughter of the King, who allows me to serve my husband as I serve Christ. It is a blessing to fulfill our Scriptural roles in marriage and in the Church.

 

Please don't misunderstand; I'm not saying I'm perfect. Far from it. I'm not saying I don't struggle against my flesh; I do seem to do that daily. :) But I do know that the more I not only 'accept' my role, but glory in it, the more blessed I am.

 

Hope that made sense. :)

 

I don't believe the struggles and therefore the convictions of everyone (or everyone of one sex) are the same. There are female leaders praised in The Bible. Therefore, how can claiming women should never be leaders be a Biblical principle?

[Audrey]

Simple (or not so simple) question:

 

What do you believe is the role of women in ministry in the local church?

 

 

I think many denominations struggle to find people honest and passionate enough to be in clergy positions. Personally, I think women have greater passion and honesty for faith than men ever could. It is in our nature to nurture and be optimistic and be a leader (although women's leadership looks much more subtle and gentle than men's).

 

If you are tied to the idea that women can't be spiritual leaders because of something the misogynistic Paul said, then no one is going to change your mind. If you are open to the idea that women can be spiritual leaders, then I think there is no limit to the role that women could play in ministry.

[*********]

Here are some NT scriptures I believe are relevant to the OP's question (all are NKJV):

 

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. - 1 Cor. 14:34-35

 

Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. - 1 Tim. 2:11-15

 

the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. - Titus 2:3-5

[*********]

If you are tied to the idea that women can't be spiritual leaders because of something the misogynistic Paul said, then no one is going to change your mind.

 

Because you do not agree with someone's teachings on women's role in the church does not make them a misogynist.

[Audrey]

Because you do not agree with someone's teachings on women's role in the church does not make them a misogynist.

You've already made my point. I'm not trying to change your mind.

[*********]

I don't believe the struggles and therefore the convictions of everyone (or everyone of one sex) are the same. There are female leaders praised in The Bible. Therefore, how can claiming women should never be leaders be a Biblical principle?

 

I believe the Scriptures say a woman is not to teach or have spiritual authority over a man.

 

Women can lead whatever they want, so long as they follow the scriptures while doing so.

[justamouse]

So what if in the next few years there's a woman president? The men shouldn't obey her?

 

Paul's writing on women being quiet in the church were written for his time. Bring back stoning and we'll talk about women being quiet in the church.

[hillfarm]

And so others interpretations aren't biblical? See, you get yourself in sticky taffy when you say things like that.

 

Priscilla and Aquila? A couple, but she was a driving force in helping and not as an underling.

 

I spoke only of my beliefs and I fail to see how that was an indictment of anyone else's. Please don't presume to put words into my mouth (or email, as the case may be).

 

Mimm, aside from the obvious biochemical differences that create differences in body mass and physical strength, science has proven that male and female brains tend to have general differences. If you agree with the generally accepted scientific premise that much of how our brains work has to do with specific "wiring" (corpus colosum, etc.) and the exact chemicals which are present, then it seems to me reasonable to believe that the physical differences in our brains would cause us to think and react in different ways.

 

Speaking from only my experience, I know that there are certain situations in which my dh is at an advantage with his way of more analytical thinking and other situations in which I do better with my more holistic approach. The bottom line is that we think and react very differently, and IMO, that is as God intended. I don't believe we were created to provide duplication of services, I feel that dh does some things better and I excel at others. I believe that we were created to complement each others abilities.

 

I feel that it is the same at church. Male leaders can provide one type of leadership while female leaders excel in another type. The problem for many women is that the Bible clearly establishes the male as the authority figure in both the church and home. God has His reasons and whether I understand or agree with them does not change things. Acceptance of authority, particularly when it requires something other than what we want can be quite a struggle for us - I know it is for me. But IMO, dislike for a situation does not justify disobedience to the word of God. As is taught in my religion, I defer to the rules of the Bible - the ones I enjoy as well as those that are less easy for me.

Edited January 3, 2011 by hillfarm

[Aubrey]

Aubrey, I have no idea if this will help, but I want to share it with you.

 

For me, my role in the church and my home became more clear, and more of a blessing to me and those I serve, when I laid down my desire to be 'equal' to anyone.

 

I deserve nothing but to be cast into Hell. It is by God's grace alone that I receive anything, including salvation. Once I really 'got' that I deserve not just nothing, but eternal ****ation, it became easier for me to accept that 'equality', the way the world teaches it, is not something to be sought after. I do not wish to be 'equal' to my husband. I do not wish to be 'equal' to anyone. I deserve nothing; therefore, every blessing I have is an overwhelming gift from God. I am abundantly blessed that He allows me to serve him in the ways that I do. I am thrilled to be a daughter of the King, who allows me to serve my husband as I serve Christ. It is a blessing to fulfill our Scriptural roles in marriage and in the Church.

 

Please don't misunderstand; I'm not saying I'm perfect. Far from it. I'm not saying I don't struggle against my flesh; I do seem to do that daily. :) But I do know that the more I not only 'accept' my role, but glory in it, the more blessed I am.

 

Hope that made sense. :)

 

I am very familiar w/ this understanding of scripture, and I respect it, but as I said in my earlier post, I'm not after equality--that's not the only motivation for wanting a better understanding of a woman's role in Christ. And I don't think it's even a bad motivation, really--that we are all equal in Him is Scriptural.

 

That said, I believe that the Scriptures that these doctrines are based on have problems. More than that, though, I have come to a place where I am leary of basing large parts of my faith off of one or even a couple of verses. When something seems not to jive w/ the rest of Scripture, I hold it at arm's length.

 

For ex, I know slavery was supported by a verse or two for centuries, but the idea of slavery doesn't jive with the freedom that is in Christ. I feel similarly about women in ministry. I'm not sure enough to go around saying I think it's good & fine, but I'm also not sure *at all* that it's wrong. So it's at arm's length for now. :001_smile:

[justamouse]

I spoke only of my beliefs and I fail to see how that was an indictment of anyone else's. Please don't presume to put words into my mouth (or email, as the case may be).

 

 

But by saying

 

We are fundamental evangelicals. We believe a solid, Biblical interpretation of the role of women in ministry.

You are ALSO saying that anyone who does not believe such does NOT believe in a solid biblical interpretation.

 

It's like The War Prayer by Mark Twain. You say____but the other side of what you say is _____.

 

http://warprayer.org/

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Prayer

 

If that's what you believe, hey, more power to you. All I'm saying is don't deny that there is another unspoken side to what you believe and that is that other denominations/beliefs about (in this case) women in ministry are unbiblical.

[Mrs Mungo]

Here are some NT scriptures I believe are relevant to the OP's question (all are NKJV):

 

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. - 1 Cor. 14:34-35

 

Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. - 1 Tim. 2:11-15

 

 

We've had this discussion before, but I will say it again: many people believe that these are time and place admonishments related to how other religions functioned at the time. Men *and* women were given the power of prophesy on Pentecost. Doesn't 1 Cor 11-14 imply participation by everyone? That women are prophesying in the church in those verses? Many people believe that they are. Therefore, it is not wrong or illogical or un-Biblical to believe that the verses you mention have a narrow rather than a wide interpretation. You may choose the more wide interpretation for yourself, based on a *personal* conviction, but it is just that, A interpretation.

 

Now to each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one is given….to another….to another…to another….All these are the work of one Spirit and He gives them to each person, just as He determines.

 

Here's a good article on other possible interpretations:

http://www.thingstocome.org/silence.htm

 

 

the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. - Titus 2:3-5

I'm totally unsure what this passage has to do with the discussion here? But, Women are expected to be more than homemakers in other parts of The Bible:

 

Epilogue: The Wife of Noble Character

 

10 [b]A wife of noble character who can find?

She is worth far more than rubies.

11 Her husband has full confidence in her

and lacks nothing of value.

12 She brings him good, not harm,

all the days of her life.

13 She selects wool and flax

and works with eager hands.

14 She is like the merchant ships,

bringing her food from afar.

15 She gets up while it is still night;

she provides food for her family

and portions for her female servants.

16 She considers a field and buys it;

out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

17 She sets about her work vigorously;

her arms are strong for her tasks.

18 She sees that her trading is profitable,

and her lamp does not go out at night.

19 In her hand she holds the distaff

and grasps the spindle with her fingers.

20 She opens her arms to the poor

and extends her hands to the needy.

21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;

for all of them are clothed in scarlet.

22 She makes coverings for her bed;

she is clothed in fine linen and purple.

23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,

where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.

24 She makes linen garments and sells them,

and supplies the merchants with sashes.

25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;

she can laugh at the days to come.

26 She speaks with wisdom,

and faithful instruction is on her tongue.

27 She watches over the affairs of her household

and does not eat the bread of idleness.

28 Her children arise and call her blessed;

her husband also, and he praises her:

29 “Many women do noble things,

but you surpass them all.”

30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;

but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.

31 Honor her for all that her hands have done,

and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

 

This isn't a women sitting at home with the kids, she's involved in trading, managing her household, buying land, etc.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[*********]

So what if in the next few years there's a woman president? The men shouldn't obey her?

 

A female president has no spiritual authority. I am only speaking to things within the Church. Worldly government is a completely different thing.

[*********]

We've had this discussion before, but I will say it again: many people believe that these are time and place admonishments related to how other religions functioned at the time. Men *and* women were given the power of prophesy on Pentecost. Doesn't 1 Cor 11-14 imply participation by everyone? That women are prophesying in the church in those verses? Many people believe that they are. Therefore, it is not wrong or illogical or un-Biblical to believe that the verses you mention have a narrow rather than a wide interpretation. You may choose the more wide interpretation for yourself, based on a *personal* conviction, but it is just that, A interpretation.

 

Now to each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one is given….to another….to another…to another….All these are the work of one Spirit and He gives them to each person, just as He determines.

 

Here's a good article on other possible interpretations:

http://www.thingstocome.org/silence.htm

 

I'm totally unsure what this passage has to do with the discussion here? But, Women are expected to be more than homemakers in other parts of The Bible:

 

Epilogue: The Wife of Noble Character

 

10 [b]A wife of noble character who can find?

She is worth far more than rubies.

11 Her husband has full confidence in her

and lacks nothing of value.

12 She brings him good, not harm,

all the days of her life.

13 She selects wool and flax

and works with eager hands.

14 She is like the merchant ships,

bringing her food from afar.

15 She gets up while it is still night;

she provides food for her family

and portions for her female servants.

16 She considers a field and buys it;

out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

17 She sets about her work vigorously;

her arms are strong for her tasks.

18 She sees that her trading is profitable,

and her lamp does not go out at night.

19 In her hand she holds the distaff

and grasps the spindle with her fingers.

20 She opens her arms to the poor

and extends her hands to the needy.

21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;

for all of them are clothed in scarlet.

22 She makes coverings for her bed;

she is clothed in fine linen and purple.

23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,

where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.

24 She makes linen garments and sells them,

and supplies the merchants with sashes.

25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;

she can laugh at the days to come.

26 She speaks with wisdom,

and faithful instruction is on her tongue.

27 She watches over the affairs of her household

and does not eat the bread of idleness.

28 Her children arise and call her blessed;

her husband also, and he praises her:

29 “Many women do noble things,

but you surpass them all.â€

30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;

but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.

31 Honor her for all that her hands have done,

and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

 

This isn't a women sitting at home with the kids, she's involved in trading, managing her household, buying land, etc.

 

Mrs. Mungo, I never said that women could not prophesy. That is completely different than having spiritual authority over a man.

 

As to the second part, the scripture I quoted gave an example of one of the roles women *do* have in the church. And Proverbs 31 is a great example as well. :)

[Mrs Mungo]

I think many denominations struggle to find people honest and passionate enough to be in clergy positions. Personally, I think women have greater passion and honesty for faith than men ever could. It is in our nature to nurture and be optimistic and be a leader (although women's leadership looks much more subtle and gentle than men's).

 

I somewhat disagree with this. I think men can be gentle leaders, I think women can be just as harsh as men. I think it's about individuals and their personal qualities.

 

That said, I believe that the Scriptures that these doctrines are based on have problems. More than that, though, I have come to a place where I am leary of basing large parts of my faith off of one or even a couple of verses. When something seems not to jive w/ the rest of Scripture, I hold it at arm's length.

 

The problem with the Corinthians verse is that is doesn't even jibe with the rest of Corinthians if interpreted in that manner.

[justamouse]

A female president has no spiritual authority. I am only speaking to things within the Church. Worldly government is a completely different thing.

 

Then why did the Evangelicals want Bush in so badly?

[susankenny]

Hmm. Nice safe topic, lol.

 

I've been part of the UMC church, where senior pastors can be women. We're currently attending a southern baptist church, where the middle school pastor, children's pastor, and woman's pastor are all women...but there are no senior pastors or associate pastors that are men. I'm pretty sure southern baptist don't allow women to be in a senior pastor role. We have also attended a Church of God in the past & they allowed women associate pastors (maybe senior pastors too...I'm not sure, I'm just speaking on behalf of the staff where we attended).

 

As for my personal opinion, I do believe women can be in a lead ministry role. However, I tend to prefer a male senior pastor. That's not to imply I think women senior pastors are unbiblical, but I personally prefer a man in that role. Just my preference. Although, if Joyce Meyer were a senior pastor and lived close to me, my preference would change for sure & I'd be in her church every week.:)

 

Susan

[Mrs Mungo]

Mrs. Mungo, I never said that women could not prophesy. That is completely different than having spiritual authority over a man.

 

What do you mean by spiritual authority?

 

Doesn't it seem that Samson's mother has to calm her husband down after the angel appears to him?

 

Deborah was a judge, a prophetess and a military leader. Judges 5 mentions male leaders, princes and warriors, so I reject the claim that some make that there weren't any good male leaders available and this was a non-ideal stop-gap measure.

 

Josiah went to Huldah about spiritual matters.

 

There are many, many other examples. As Audrey says, the interpretation you are giving those verses does not jibe with the rest of scripture.

[elegantlion]

My dh and I were married by a woman minister. Pretty much sums up my beliefs.