Help, I think I'm a post-evangelical. What do I do now?

[JenniferB]

I've been wanting to share this with someone for a while, but the only one I can share this with is my husband, because all my friends are evangelicals. The few times I have tried to talk to my friends about my thoughts, it ends in unsatisfying disagreement. For example, last Thursday I went to my friend's house for tea. She had a book laying on her counter. The title of the book bothered me, so I decided to share my thoughts. We went back and forth for a while, and the conversation ended in a disagreement in semantics. We ended the conversation peacefully, but I was left with an unsatisfying feeling, like I don't have anyone to converse with, but my husband, who is like-minded. I told my husband about the book title conversation that night, and he suggested that I should just "be happy" for my friends who are reading Christian books and going to Ladies Bible studies, even when I disagree with the content of the study. I thought he was right, and I should be happy for them, which I am. So, I have resolved to be happy for my friends and their Bible studies, and to not express my disagreements when they come up, because it does no good for them or for our relationship. Now I'm feeling like I'm alone in the wilderness of the ex-evangelical with no company, and I don't know where to go from here.

 

I think where I want to go next is to study the ancient Christian church. However, I don't really know where to start, and I don't want it to lead to changing churches or converting to another religion. I'm very happy with my church, and I love my friends dearly. I just need something to study that presses me closer to God, and I can't find it in the usual evangelical circles.

[anneofalamo]

oh my heart goes out to you!! I can hear such a hunger! I guess I don't have the lingo of the religious world. I was a sinner set free that serves God out of gratitude and awe, so what does evangical mean?

[simka2]

I feel your pain :D. This has helped me some...

 

http://www.amazon.com/Devotional-Classics-Selected-Readings-Individuals/dp/0060777508/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292875217&sr=1-1

 

I had to go thru a bit of detoxing period where I realized that not reading or studying...didn't equal not growing spiritually. The above book was something I could pick up or put down as needed.

 

It's still an ongoing process for me :D

 

I added this one, because it is written by the pastor who helped me wrestle with what I have come to think of as "religious addiction." http://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Jesus-Restoring-His-Brilliance/dp/0768432243/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292875710&sr=1-1

Edited December 20, 2010 by simka2

[lisamarie]

I grew up evangelical and DH and I attended an evangelical church up until a year ago when we decided that our church was not the place for us and to start looking for a new one. I was pretty dead set on finding a similar church but with better preaching (Biblically sound would be a good place to start:glare: 3 months after we left the church, the pastor was essentially asked to resign). I distinctly recall a conversation I had with some of my Catholic friends that I just didn't not get liturgical prayer, that I didn't even consider it worship because I'd grown up with standard evangelical prayer.

 

2 months later we decided to check out a conservative Anglican church and I fell in love with it from day 1. DH really wanted to find a church that had history, that had liturgy, that had a priesthood and accountability. I didn't "get it" until I tried it. Now I really appreciate it. And because the order of service is consistent week-to-week, my kids can participate because they've learned the prayers. I researched the Orthodox and Lutheran churches, and while I liked the theology for the most part (a few things I strongly disagreed on with the Lutherans), I did not agree with a few of their practices. The main one being the lack of an open communion table. I would have to join the church in order to take communion and I wasn't willing to wait a year to jump through all the hoops to join before taking communion again.

 

If you aren't looking to switch churches, a good place to find something more "sacred (old)" to add to your life may be the Common Book of Prayer or something similar. I bring home the order of service booklet every week to go over the Sunday readings and to meditate on them more fully. I am planning to buy a copy of the CBofP with Christmas money so I have the daily readings.

[lisamarie]

I feel your pain :D. This has helped me some...

 

http://www.amazon.com/Devotional-Classics-Selected-Readings-Individuals/dp/0060777508/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292875217&sr=1-1

 

I had to go thru a bit of detoxing period where I realized that not reading or studying...didn't equal not growing spiritually. The above book was something I could pick up or put down as needed.

 

It's still an ongoing process for me :D

 

That's a good book. I have a copy of it and the readings are very good and make you dig deeper. I'm starting to develop a love of historical sermons and pastors due to my pastor quoting them all the time. Reading the works of famous pastors is a good idea.

[Mrs Mungo]

There are a lot of good books out there about Christians who are unhappy with the church as an institution (rather than a body of believers). Maybe one of those would help you?

[danybug]

I would feel like that is a tough position to be in. My initial thought was that you should be studying His Word right now. There would be nothing better to help draw you closer to Him without all of the other opinions and "drama". And that is probably what you need the most right now. When I did the 90 Day Bible Challenge last year there was nothing that I have ever done that kept me closer to Him then being in the Word faithfully everyday.

 

If you wanted something to keep you on track an awesome resource is the "Balancing the Sword" book set. My ds and I are using this resource together as we read through the Bible cover to cover.

 

Anyway, :grouphug: You will find your way and you will be comforted in your seeking!

[forty-two]

I only have two irl people to discuss things of interest with - my dh and my sis. All the rest of that I get from online interactions. And atm it's working for me :). I even forget most of the time how out of step I am with most people irl :tongue_smilie: (the occasional Bible study comment that goes over like a lead balloon reminds me ;)). So long as my close family gets me, it doesn't really bother me that the rest of my interactions are pretty compartmentalized (I'm *me* for all of them, but different parts of me are at the forefront - outside of my family, I don't think most people have had the opportunity to see enough sides of me to really know *me* - and that's ok). Most people have no idea what I spend my time researching and thinking about (or even that I *do* spend large amounts of time researching things), and we find plenty to talk about anyway - real things, too, not just random superficial weather-related chit-chat :tongue_smilie:.

 

I just got the feeling from your post that it bothered you some to contemplate closing off whole sections of your life from your irl friends, and I just wanted to give a perspective that it doesn't have to be a bad thing at all :grouphug:.

[Renee in NC]

I converted to Roman Catholicism.:D

[JenniferB]

oh my heart goes out to you!! I can hear such a hunger! I guess I don't have the lingo of the religious world. I was a sinner set free that serves God out of gratitude and awe, so what does evangical mean?

 

Since my thoughts/feelings/mindset on the matter is relatively new, I don't think I could explain with precision what evangelical or post-evangelical is. I did a wiki-search on post-evangelicalism, and here's what I found if you are interested. There is also a link to evangelicalism in the opening sentence of this article for further reference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-evangelical

 

 

Basically, I can't do a Bible study written by an evangelical without something grating on my nerves. The number of things that grate on me are numerous, but I'll name a few to give you an idea:

• The verse, "all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purposes," is often used to "comfort" people who have gone through a great tragedy. What many evangelicals say is that a terrible thing might be happening to you now, but God will make it work for your good in the end. Maybe you'll learn a good lesson, or become closer to God, or become a better Christian, etc. etc. I don't think God wants totally awful things to happen to teach us lessons or make us closer to him.
  
• Whatever happens in this world, no matter how awful, is "God's will." The word "will," is defined in a strange way by evangelicals, like God doesn't really want bad things to happen, but he let's them happen anyway so that his greater purpose is accomplished. When I think of the word "will," I think it means "want." I don't think everything that happens is God's will. I think he doesn't want people to do bad things, and when they do, he is grieved.
  
• Evangelical leaders often exaggerate to make a point. This bothers me greatly, especially when it's in a book that a bunch of people will read.
  
• Evangelicals sometimes try too hard to be relevant and hip to the world to gain more members or book sales, and in some circles they will totally disengage from society and become Christian hermits looking down on everyone else who doesn't follow their exact persuasion of Christianity.
  

Well, I think that's enough for now. If you are reading this and you are evangelical, please don't take offense to my above statements. I do not mean to cause any offense. I am just expressing my views about ideas, but it's not meant to be personally hurtful to anyone, and I hope it wasn't. :blush:

[JVA]

I'm sorry you're going thru this right now. Try to remember, God hasn't/doesn't change and discovering His real nature is a journey. Have you ever tried any Precept bible studies before? They use the inductive method- observation (what does it say?), interpretation (what does it mean?) and application (what do I do with it?) It's been so helpful for me to really know the meanings of words, get a historical and cultural understanding of the event/letter/poem and to always take the words/meanings in context of the chapter/book/whole Bible. It might be a good route to go.

 

Even though people/church may go one way, if we know what God says about something, we don't need to be influenced by the world if it's going against the Word. I hope you won't be discouraged to follow Jesus even though people are sinners and fallible. He always has the answers to our questions. And most of the time, He IS the answer.

[simka2]

Since my thoughts/feelings/mindset on the matter is relatively new, I don't think I could explain with precision what evangelical or post-evangelical is. I did a wiki-search on post-evangelicalism, and here's what I found if you are interested. There is also a link to evangelicalism in the opening sentence of this article for further reference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-evangelical

 

 

 

 

Basically, I can't do a Bible study written by an evangelical without something grating on my nerves. The number of things that grate on me are numerous, but I'll name a few to give you an idea:

• The verse, "all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purposes," is often used to "comfort" people who have gone through a great tragedy. What many evangelicals say is that a terrible thing might be happening to you now, but God will make it work for your good in the end. Maybe you'll learn a good lesson, or become closer to God, or become a better Christian, etc. etc. I don't think God wants totally awful things to happen to teach us lessons or make us closer to him.
  
• Whatever happens in this world, no matter how awful, is "God's will." The word "will," is defined in a strange way by evangelicals, like God doesn't really want bad things to happen, but he let's them happen anyway so that his greater purpose is accomplished. When I think of the word "will," I think it means "want." I don't think everything that happens is God's will. I think he doesn't want people to do bad things, and when they do, he is grieved.
  
• Evangelical leaders often exaggerate to make a point. This bothers me greatly, especially when it's in a book that a bunch of people will read.
  
• Evangelicals sometimes try too hard to be relevant and hip to the world to gain more members or book sales, and in some circles they will totally disengage from society and become Christian hermits looking down on everyone else who doesn't follow their exact persuasion of Christianity.
  

Well, I think that's enough for now. If you are reading this and you are evangelical, please don't take offense to my above statements. I do not mean to cause any offense. I am just expressing my views about ideas, but it's not meant to be personally hurtful to anyone, and I hope it wasn't. :blush:

 

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: The bolded part is why I steered away from reformed theology (not slamming it, just saying it doesn't work for me.) Sometimes I feel like my religous GPS is saying "wait you can't be driving here, there's no road!"

 

It helps me to remember that all thru history people have struggled with their faith and even what their religous leaders teach/preach about. Then I don't feel so alone.

[Carol in Cal.]

Here is a book that you might enjoy:

Girl Meets God by Lauren Winner

The author is a fairly conservative Episcopalian who writes about her journey to faith. It's not triumphalist--it shows foibles and faults as well as successes. I read it as a Lenten book from time to time, and it bears repeating.

 

I am conservative Lutheran, and we are pretty historic. I think that you might find, as I have, that more of the women on this board are historic Christians than their denominational choices would imply--it's just the nature of those who come here. So you might want to start a group to chat about things here. I know how hard it is not to have anyone to talk deeply with about your faith. Still, I think it's exciting that you're moving deeper.

 

I think that you would benefit from studying the Sacraments--Baptism and the Lord's Supper--more deeply. That's just a surmise from what you have said, though.

 

:grouphug:

[Mejane]

I love this, and it's true ime: "A UU comes to a fork in the road. The sign pointing to the left says "This way to heaven." The sign pointing to the right says "This way to a discussion about heaven." The UU turns right." :D Maybe you should try a UU church or just attend their bible study. They're very welcoming.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Mejane

[Britomart]

I'm a traditional Anglican by theology, and mostly evangelical in practice (because we don't have an Anglican church close by, so we choose to worship with a local evangelical congregation), just so you know where I'm coming from.

 

A couple of resources that might help you:

 

-as a PP said: the Book of Common Prayer. Reading Morning and Evening prayer might be a very helpful practice for you. It's very traditional, and will start to give you a feel for what the liturgical life is like.

 

-Facing East, by Frederica Mathewes-Green. This tells the story of the author's conversion, first to Christianity, and thence to Eastern Orthodoxy. Even though I'm not Orthodox, it's one of my favorite books, and helped me a lot when I was first learning about ancient Christian tradition.

 

-Christ in the Psalms and Christ in His Saints, both by Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon. These books are about exactly what the titles sound like . . . they exegete the scriptures according to more ancient Christian thought. If you're reading the Psalms assigned in the BCP, the first book especially will help you pray them the way the ancient church did.

 

 

fwiw, I've eventually come to the conclusion that each of the three major branches of Christianity (EO, RC, and Protestant) have some things right and some things wrong, and we really all need each other in order to truly reflect God's glory. In the end, it seems to be a question not of which is right, but of being obedient where you are, and converting only if God tells you clearly that you ought. I keep wishing I could be RC or EO, because I'm attracted to them, and because I'm tired of the problems in my own branch, but I know that all I'd find would be different problems. I just am a Protestant - whether I like it or not - and I'm going to try my best, God helping, to be a good one.

 

Not that that's where you'll end up; I don't know. He might be calling you to a different branch of His church, and the books above will help you learn more about that. I just share where I'm at because I've been where you are (and am still there, in many ways). The church isn't perfect anywhere, but it's glorious. These days, I'm just glad to be part of it, ideal or not. Because someday, He'll return, and it will all be redeemed.

 

:) Again. Not preaching - just sharing what's given me hope. God bless you as you look and listen.

[QueenCat]

I researched the Orthodox and Lutheran churches, and while I liked the theology for the most part (a few things I strongly disagreed on with the Lutherans), I did not agree with a few of their practices. The main one being the lack of an open communion table. I would have to join the church in order to take communion and I wasn't willing to wait a year to jump through all the hoops to join before taking communion again.

 

 

Open communion is very important to me. I had no idea how important it was until we switched from an ELCA church to the United Methodist Church. I don't understand people who don't want fellow Christians to share communion with them just because they aren't the same denomination.

[QueenCat]

What does EO stand for?

[silliness7]

I could have written your post several years ago.

 

I recommend Christless Christianity by Michael Horton

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Christless-Christianity-Alternative-Gospel-American/dp/0801013186/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292879278&sr=1-1

[Britomart]

Open communion is very important to me. I had no idea how important it was until we switched from an ELCA church to the United Methodist Church. I don't understand people who don't want fellow Christians to share communion with them just because they aren't the same denomination.

 

My understanding of it is that it comes from the part of the NT where Paul talks about how those who take communion incorrectly are, basically, "drinking death" (forgive me, I'm going from memory). The leaders of closed communion churches feel that since they don't know the state of the souls of people who haven't been catechized correctly (i.e., according to their churches' requirements), they could be harming them by letting them take communion. So, though it can seem sort of backwards, it's done out of love. They don't want to be a conduit of harm to someone taking communion improperly.

 

I hope I have that right; I'm not speaking from experience!

[Jann in TX]

I absolutely hate it when scripture is taken out of the original context!

 

I believe that God makes 'excellent lemonade' from the lemons that sin brings into our lives.

 

I actually had a 'spiritual evangelical person' say to me "It was God's will that you lost your baby" (3rd trimester still birth)... I had another 'Christian' say that it was God's will that I was 'abused' when I was a child... sheesh did these people actually listen to what they were saying????

 

I believe that God has a plan for our lives-- I also believe that we have FREE WILL--and that we are all sinners. I believe that God knows the choices that we will make--and that our 'sin' grieves Him--but that because of Jesus and the Gospel we have the CHOICE of salvation.

 

I am disheartened by the contemporary evangelical 'formula' for Christianity-- go to Church every Sunday, pray xxx many minutes every morning, read xxx of the Bible every day, do xxx many Bible studies... do all of the above and God will 'bless' you for it and nothing too 'bad' will happen-- this just does not mesh with the Bible (just read about what happened to Peter and Paul when they obeyed God and went out into the world!).

 

I consider myself evangelical because I believe that God has asked us to join Him in HIS Great Commission... it is all about God-- not about us and how 'good' we are (because we aren't.) I believe that my relationship with God is between Him and me-- but I also believe that Christians are called to 'Live Out Loud'... (this does not mean shove the Gospel down the throats of others--but rather letting God love others THROUGH us).

 

My church friends and family just don't understand why I believe this way...

[Britomart]

What does EO stand for?

 

Eastern Orthodox. Sorry. :) And "RC" is Roman Catholic.

[QueenCat]

My understanding of it is that it comes from the part of the NT where Paul talks about how those who take communion incorrectly are, basically, "drinking death" (forgive me, I'm going from memory). The leaders of closed communion churches feel that since they don't know the state of the souls of people who haven't been catechized correctly (i.e., according to their churches' requirements), they could be harming them by letting them take communion. So, though it can seem sort of backwards, it's done out of love. They don't want to be a conduit of harm to someone taking communion improperly.

 

I hope I have that right; I'm not speaking from experience!

 

I have actually heard that before, but don't agree with it. Why? Because communion is between me and God, not me and a church leader. I'm trying to remember how it worked in the Lutheran church. As a young adult, I stayed with the Lutheran church, until dh and I met an UMC pastor, and just really wanted to visit his church. We knew it was the right place the first day.

 

I don't remember being asked as an adult if I was a Lutheran when visiting my parents church (also Lutheran), I just went to the rail and was served communion. And I still go to the rail and receive it when I visit their church, even though I'm now a Christian first, United Methodist second. It was not the same church I'd grown up in, as they had moved, so it wasn't like the pastor could remember me. Our pastor always makes sure everyone knows they are welcome at God's table.

[QueenCat]

Eastern Orthodox. Sorry. :) And "RC" is Roman Catholic.

 

Thanks.... I knew the RC :001_smile:.

[8circles]

I have actually heard that before, but don't agree with it. Why? Because communion is between me and God, not me and a church leader. I'm trying to remember how it worked in the Lutheran church. As a young adult, I stayed with the Lutheran church, until dh and I met an UMC pastor, and just really wanted to visit his church. We knew it was the right place the first day.

 

I don't remember being asked as an adult if I was a Lutheran when visiting my parents church (also Lutheran), I just went to the rail and was served communion. And I still go to the rail and receive it when I visit their church, even though I'm now a Christian first, United Methodist second. It was not the same church I'd grown up in, as they had moved, so it wasn't like the pastor could remember me. Our pastor always makes sure everyone knows they are welcome at God's table.

 

I've been to countless protestant denominations & have always been told that I'm welcome at the communion table as long as I confess Jesus Christ as my Lord. The only church that I've attended who didn't allow other denominations was RC - I've never attended EO. The UMC serves communion to everyone, including (very minor) children who have not asked their parents' permission. Ask me how I know.

[Britomart]

I don't remember being asked as an adult if I was a Lutheran when visiting my parents church (also Lutheran), I just went to the rail and was served communion. And I still go to the rail and receive it when I visit their church, even though I'm now a Christian first, United Methodist second. It was not the same church I'd grown up in, as they had moved, so it wasn't like the pastor could remember me. Our pastor always makes sure everyone knows they are welcome at God's table.

 

I know in the Anglican church they say you can take communion if you're a baptized Christian who acknowledges the real presence of Christ in the elements. So that's the tradition I'm a part of.

 

I have several relatives who feel the way you do about closed communion churches, so I think I understand it, but I have to say that I can see where the closed communion churches are coming from. If they honestly feel they would be doing harm, I can't fault them for refusing to do it. It's a freedom of conscience thing, I guess.

[8circles]

Since my thoughts/feelings/mindset on the matter is relatively new, I don't think I could explain with precision what evangelical or post-evangelical is. I did a wiki-search on post-evangelicalism, and here's what I found if you are interested. There is also a link to evangelicalism in the opening sentence of this article for further reference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-evangelical

 

 

 

Basically, I can't do a Bible study written by an evangelical without something grating on my nerves. The number of things that grate on me are numerous, but I'll name a few to give you an idea:

• The verse, "all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purposes," is often used to "comfort" people who have gone through a great tragedy. What many evangelicals say is that a terrible thing might be happening to you now, but God will make it work for your good in the end. Maybe you'll learn a good lesson, or become closer to God, or become a better Christian, etc. etc. I don't think God wants totally awful things to happen to teach us lessons or make us closer to him.
  
• Whatever happens in this world, no matter how awful, is "God's will." The word "will," is defined in a strange way by evangelicals, like God doesn't really want bad things to happen, but he let's them happen anyway so that his greater purpose is accomplished. When I think of the word "will," I think it means "want." I don't think everything that happens is God's will. I think he doesn't want people to do bad things, and when they do, he is grieved.
  
• Evangelical leaders often exaggerate to make a point. This bothers me greatly, especially when it's in a book that a bunch of people will read.
  
• Evangelicals sometimes try too hard to be relevant and hip to the world to gain more members or book sales, and in some circles they will totally disengage from society and become Christian hermits looking down on everyone else who doesn't follow their exact persuasion of Christianity.
  

Well, I think that's enough for now. If you are reading this and you are evangelical, please don't take offense to my above statements. I do not mean to cause any offense. I am just expressing my views about ideas, but it's not meant to be personally hurtful to anyone, and I hope it wasn't. :blush:

 

I consider myself to be an evangelical Christian & belong to the Evangelical Covenant denomination. I believe the same as you, as do all the people in my church who I've discussed it with. I have not found the same exaggerations or judgement that you have within evangelical circles.

 

I'm sorry you aren't finding more like-minds near you. I hope you find a good outlet for your thoughts.

[QueenCat]

I've been to countless protestant denominations & have always been told that I'm welcome at the communion table as long as I confess Jesus Christ as my Lord. The only church that I've attended who didn't allow other denominations was RC - I've never attended EO. The UMC serves communion to everyone, including (very minor) children who have not asked their parents' permission. Ask me how I know.

 

I'm guessing it happened to your child? I wouldn't care for that either, if my children had not already been prepared to receive communion. I do wish the UMC had a class for the children, like what I went through in the Lutheran church... sort of... as in, the class to talk about it at their level but I don't think a formal First Communion is necessary. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, just not necessary.

[Sahamamama]

Jennifer B, :grouphug:

 

I agree with Simka, and I'm so glad she posted her thoughts -- that reading the Bible or studying a devotional guide is not what makes me a growing Christian. It has taken me a long time to come to terms with this.

 

For what it's worth, years ago I went to (and finished) seminary. I worked hard, I studied, I lived alone... I had a dark night of the soul... I had a terrible thyroid condition... and yes, I grew spiritually. But when that season of life was done, I had to learn to walk down another path, one that was not in any way connected to my earlier expectations for "service" or "ministry" or "missions." There was a time of learning to not regret my obedience to Christ. We often think that we would regret disobedience to Him... but what happens when we obey Him, follow where we believe He has led us, do all that we know to do, and then the path seems to end in a jumbled, dead-end tangle of weeds? It was still His leading.

 

It turned out to be okay with me that my expectations came to nothing. It turned out to be okay that to others I looked like an idiot. In that quiet change of pace and circumstance, God asked me what I wanted from Him -- not the other way around. It surprised me, really, after all those years of hearing the rhetoric, "Do _____ for the Lord! Be a brave soldier for Jesus!" It had not occurred to me, until the doors wouldn't open, that Jesus never actually originated this particular strain of bleed-out-your-last-drop, militant troop-mustering.

 

How surprising, to think that He knew me....

 

I'm still amazed that God knew where I was, that He knew deeper inside of me than I knew myself, that He pinned me down in my heart of hearts, to bring me to the place where I acknowledged that what I really wanted was to be married, to have a family... and that was so hard to even say, because that was something I could not "make happen."

 

I was so ready to go to Unga-Bunga and be crucified for Him. Yet here I am. I am still ready. I would still go, I would still pay any price to live or die for Jesus. In truth, I am waiting for Jesus to come. He is not waiting for me to "go." I live in the hard, hostile, rocky, barren land of New Jersey. Can you imagine how I cry out for Jesus to come here? To dwell here? To reveal Himself here? I am convinced there is not a place on Earth that is more desperate (in despair, hopeless) than New Jersey. Will anyone intercede for New Jersey?

 

One day, the thought came to me, "If I was separated from my Bible, my books, and other believers, what would remain in me? What relationship do I have with Jesus on my own, apart from the printed pages?"

 

I'm not dismissing the need to read, meditate, and (at times) study. I was simply wondering to myself if Jesus Himself is dependent on those books to relate to me, to connect with me, to (all the time) speak to me.

 

Yes, and no. His Word is His Word, I know. He Himself is also the Word, and so He is more than the printed words to me. Does that make sense? So much of the Bible can be written on our hearts... and by His Spirit He speaks to our spirits. Nothing contrary to the written Word, but somehow "up off the pages."

 

May I suggest to you a season of reading something other than books? :001_smile: "Read" human history. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you the thread of salvation in it. "Read" creation, read nature, hear how the heavens declare His glory. "Read" the Book of the Human Heart, its brokenness, its need of Jesus, its resilience, its eternity. "Read" the Book of Love -- how misunderstood it is! "Read" music. The Saint Matthew Passion (J. S. Bach) is a great place to start. "Read" your marriage. "Read" your children.

 

Then lie down and sleep. And dream. God is Spirit. He "moves my furniture" when I dream. Praying for you...

[QueenCat]

I know in the Anglican church they say you can take communion if you're a baptized Christian who acknowledges the real presence of Christ in the elements. So that's the tradition I'm a part of.

 

I have several relatives who feel the way you do about closed communion churches, so I think I understand it, but I have to say that I can see where the closed communion churches are coming from. If they honestly feel they would be doing harm, I can't fault them for refusing to do it. It's a freedom of conscience thing, I guess.

 

I felt a little strongly when changing churches, as the Lutheran's didn't ask, but they didn't make a welcoming statement either. It's funny how I didn't feel super strongly about it until I went to a RC funeral, and was told by the person next to me that I couldn't go up with the others to receive communion. There were several of us that were a bit shocked. I really wanted to be at the altar, on my knees, because of my state of being at this child's funeral. I needed that communion with God, between me and God. I felt like they were saying I wasn't a enough of a Christian to share at their table.

[8circles]

I'm guessing it happened to your child? I wouldn't care for that either, if my children had not already been prepared to receive communion. I do wish the UMC had a class for the children, like what I went through in the Lutheran church... sort of... as in, the class to talk about it at their level but I don't think a formal First Communion is necessary. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, just not necessary.

 

Yup, he was taken by my MIL for his "first communion" because she felt so bad that every time communion was served at our church the children had already been dismissed to children's church.

[QueenCat]

Yup, he was taken by my MIL for his "first communion" because she felt so bad that every time communion was served at our church the children had already been dismissed to children's church.

 

That would upset me too. I do believe in an open table but it should be the parents deciding the first time. That said though, it would be my mil I'd be upset with, not the pastor.

[Parrothead]

Open communion is very important to me. I had no idea how important it was until we switched from an ELCA church to the United Methodist Church. I don't understand people who don't want fellow Christians to share communion with them just because they aren't the same denomination.

I can speak about the Catholic reasoning for this. For a Catholic it isn't simply communion. It is the Eucharist. Catholics believe transubstantiation occurs during the Mass. As such the "hoops" one must jump through to partake of the Holy Eucharist start to make sense after I ask the question, "How do you want to be body, mind and soul when you meet God?"

 

Me personally, as a Catholic who believes that the communion wafer has become the Body and Blood of Jesus, I want to be 1. on my knees before God (I hate that most Catholic churches have gotten rid of the communion rail) 2. pure of mind thinking solely of God and 3. with a clean white soul. Catholics believe that the "hoops," religious education, the Sacrament of Reconciliation and the Sacrament of Marriage, etc, give one a pure soul with which to meet God every day.

 

Hopefully that didn't create confusion for you. The short version is the Catholic church wants everyone to partake of the Eucharist, but she also wants her individual members prepared and ready to receive the most Holy Eucharist.

[Bird Girl]

You may want to read a little C. S. Lewis. Something like Mere Christianity might be helpful to you. Lewis writes quite a bit about how suffering can exist in a universe with a loving God.

[Joanne]

I've learned it is best for my sanity to not seek understanding from traditional Christians.

 

One of the first major forks in the road for me was when I got a beautiful calendar from a major homeschool curriculum company. The calendar featured georgeous geography and international cultures and rich descriptions. And each one implored me to pray that they learn to worship "the one true God". :glare:

 

Today (a few years down a very hard road), I don't resemble what most people would call Christian at all, although I believe in the words of the Apostle's Creed. :)

 

I have more in common, spiritually, with people of non-exclusive faiths. Conservative Christians are not a match; nor is Islam or atheism (which tends to be exclusive-minded, also).

 

I'm glad you have your husband to talk to! Mine was devastated after his Dad's funeral. I told him that if I "go" before him, please, please, please don't allow anyone to make my passing a Jesus thing. He (of Baptist spiritual heritage) thought the services were very light on the Christian thing. I felt like I couldn't breathe.

[8circles]

That would upset me too. I do believe in an open table but it should be the parents deciding the first time. That said though, it would be my mil I'd be upset with, not the pastor.

 

Of course. Although it was the teaching of the pastor/church which taught her that communion wasn't a big deal & could be used as if it were a snack during the service. May not be this way at every UMC but it was at this one.

[Trish]

Hmm, it's hard enough avoiding difficult topics with human beings, much less picking fights with book titles. That's just looking for trouble, IMO. But, I feel for your position vis a vis your friends. But, maybe we don't need to agree to be friends? If people knew some of the things I really thought about the future, they'd probably run screaming away...

 

:lol:

[AuntieM]

Sahamama - what a fantastic post! Thank you for sharing from your very soul.

 

OP, if I could recommend one book to you, it would be AW Tozer's Knowledge of the Holy. I believe God is much bigger, and communicates with us much more creatively, than many mainline denominations seem to give Him credit for. I pray you will feel His very touch and direction in your changing, growing relationship with Him.

[Wheres Toto]

I'm guessing it happened to your child? I wouldn't care for that either, if my children had not already been prepared to receive communion. I do wish the UMC had a class for the children, like what I went through in the Lutheran church... sort of... as in, the class to talk about it at their level but I don't think a formal First Communion is necessary. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, just not necessary.

 

I grew up United Methodist (still am I guess although I haven't attended in about 3 years). We attended 3 different churches during my childhood/teen years. At all of them, children did not receive communion until after they were Confirmed at 12/13 years old after attending Confirmation Classes for about 3 months. Children usually attended the church service for the first part, then left prior to the sermon to attend Sunday School classes. Communion was the first Sunday of the month and was done after the children left.

 

ETA: For adults, any Christian was welcome to partake.

Edited December 20, 2010 by dottieanna29

[Once Again]

If you are looking to read about the early church, I recommend "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up" by David Bercot.

[LBC]

Jennifer B, :grouphug:

 

I agree with Simka, and I'm so glad she posted her thoughts -- that reading the Bible or studying a devotional guide is not what makes me a growing Christian. It has taken me a long time to come to terms with this.

 

For what it's worth, years ago I went to (and finished) seminary. I worked hard, I studied, I lived alone... I had a dark night of the soul... I had a terrible thyroid condition... and yes, I grew spiritually. But when that season of life was done, I had to learn to walk down another path, one that was not in any way connected to my earlier expectations for "service" or "ministry" or "missions." There was a time of learning to not regret my obedience to Christ. We often think that we would regret disobedience to Him... but what happens when we obey Him, follow where we believe He has led us, do all that we know to do, and then the path seems to end in a jumbled, dead-end tangle of weeds? It was still His leading.

 

It turned out to be okay with me that my expectations came to nothing. It turned out to be okay that to others I looked like an idiot. In that quiet change of pace and circumstance, God asked me what I wanted from Him -- not the other way around. It surprised me, really, after all those years of hearing the rhetoric, "Do _____ for the Lord! Be a brave soldier for Jesus!" It had not occurred to me, until the doors wouldn't open, that Jesus never actually originated this particular strain of bleed-out-your-last-drop, militant troop-mustering.

 

How surprising, to think that He knew me....

 

I'm still amazed that God knew where I was, that He knew deeper inside of me than I knew myself, that He pinned me down in my heart of hearts, to bring me to the place where I acknowledged that what I really wanted was to be married, to have a family... and that was so hard to even say, because that was something I could not "make happen."

 

I was so ready to go to Unga-Bunga and be crucified for Him. Yet here I am. I am still ready. I would still go, I would still pay any price to live or die for Jesus. In truth, I am waiting for Jesus to come. He is not waiting for me to "go." I live in the hard, hostile, rocky, barren land of New Jersey. Can you imagine how I cry out for Jesus to come here? To dwell here? To reveal Himself here? I am convinced there is not a place on Earth that is more desperate (in despair, hopeless) than New Jersey. Will anyone intercede for New Jersey?

 

One day, the thought came to me, "If I was separated from my Bible, my books, and other believers, what would remain in me? What relationship do I have with Jesus on my own, apart from the printed pages?"

 

I'm not dismissing the need to read, meditate, and (at times) study. I was simply wondering to myself if Jesus Himself is dependent on those books to relate to me, to connect with me, to (all the time) speak to me.

 

Yes, and no. His Word is His Word, I know. He Himself is also the Word, and so He is more than the printed words to me. Does that make sense? So much of the Bible can be written on our hearts... and by His Spirit He speaks to our spirits. Nothing contrary to the written Word, but somehow "up off the pages."

 

May I suggest to you a season of reading something other than books? :001_smile: "Read" human history. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you the thread of salvation in it. "Read" creation, read nature, hear how the heavens declare His glory. "Read" the Book of the Human Heart, its brokenness, its need of Jesus, its resilience, its eternity. "Read" the Book of Love -- how misunderstood it is! "Read" music. The Saint Matthew Passion (J. S. Bach) is a great place to start. "Read" your marriage. "Read" your children.

 

Then lie down and sleep. And dream. God is Spirit. He "moves my furniture" when I dream. Praying for you...

 

Great post! I haven't posted in a long time, but I had to comment on this post. My journey has been very similar.

 

Lori

[G5052]

I'm an avid reader of the Bible, but frankly I can't stand "modern" Christian books, music, Christian radio, most popular speakers, or ladies' Bible studies. There really isn't anyone popular in evangelical circles that I truly like as a writer, speaker, or performer.

 

I guess that I'm an anti-modern Christian, if that gives you another term to think about!

[8circles]

May I suggest to you a season of reading something other than books? :001_smile: "Read" human history. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you the thread of salvation in it. "Read" creation, read nature, hear how the heavens declare His glory. "Read" the Book of the Human Heart, its brokenness, its need of Jesus, its resilience, its eternity. "Read" the Book of Love -- how misunderstood it is! "Read" music. The Saint Matthew Passion (J. S. Bach) is a great place to start. "Read" your marriage. "Read" your children.

 

Then lie down and sleep. And dream. God is Spirit. He "moves my furniture" when I dream. Praying for you...

 

Sahamamama - I've read & re-read your post several times. It's a new concept for me although many things rang true. If that makes sense. Thank you.

[justamouse]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Posting and running but I'll be back

 

look up PAGAN CHRISTIANITY by Frank Viola, and JESUS MANIFESTO by the same author.

 

I also got a lot out of SO YOU DON'T WANT TO GO TO CHURCH ANYMORE.

 

BTDT:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Open communion is very important to me. I had no idea how important it was until we switched from an ELCA church to the United Methodist Church. I don't understand people who don't want fellow Christians to share communion with them just because they aren't the same denomination.

 

 

:iagree::iagree:

[JVA]

I consider myself to be an evangelical Christian ..... I believe the same as you, as do all the people in my church who I've discussed it with. I have not found the same exaggerations or judgement that you have within evangelical circles.

 

I'm sorry you aren't finding more like-minds near you. I hope you find a good outlet for your thoughts.

 

 

:iagree: It seems that perhaps some of the trouble is associated with a denominational identity. I've never run into what you're describing and we've been in 'evangelical' churches for more than 30 years. Even though we're in a denominational church, the association is LOOSE and the focus is on JESUS, first. If someone told me that we should/should-not do something because it 'fit' a denominational mold, I'd dismiss it immediately because we don't consider ourselves 'said denomination member' but Christians.

[MamaSheep]

I've been wanting to share this with someone for a while, but the only one I can share this with is my husband, because all my friends are evangelicals. The few times I have tried to talk to my friends about my thoughts, it ends in unsatisfying disagreement. For example, last Thursday I went to my friend's house for tea. She had a book laying on her counter. The title of the book bothered me, so I decided to share my thoughts. We went back and forth for a while, and the conversation ended in a disagreement in semantics. We ended the conversation peacefully, but I was left with an unsatisfying feeling, like I don't have anyone to converse with, but my husband, who is like-minded. I told my husband about the book title conversation that night, and he suggested that I should just "be happy" for my friends who are reading Christian books and going to Ladies Bible studies, even when I disagree with the content of the study. I thought he was right, and I should be happy for them, which I am. So, I have resolved to be happy for my friends and their Bible studies, and to not express my disagreements when they come up, because it does no good for them or for our relationship. Now I'm feeling like I'm alone in the wilderness of the ex-evangelical with no company, and I don't know where to go from here.

 

I think where I want to go next is to study the ancient Christian church. However, I don't really know where to start, and I don't want it to lead to changing churches or converting to another religion. I'm very happy with my church, and I love my friends dearly. I just need something to study that presses me closer to God, and I can't find it in the usual evangelical circles.

 

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are looking for. It sounds as if what you want is to keep all the good that you have found in your current faith tradition and community, but to be able to let go of those things that don't seem right to you, and to find new good things from other traditions that will help to fill in gaps and bring you closer to God. Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

I agree that C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity is one good place to start. Good stuff in there!

 

Since you want to learn more about the early Christian church but without being nudged into another church or religion, maybe a good place to start would be to go through the New Testament--just on your own, not using a published Bible Study--and study verses you find that relate to the early church. Pray as you go, write down references, look up words in the dictionary, and in a Greek lexicon. Use a concordance to find verses on similar topics. That sort of thing. And write down notes about what you learn in a study journal. I bet if you asked here a lot of people would be willing to share verses they felt were relevant. I know I would love to have that sort of chat here. Anyway, maybe you need to just study it out on your own without an author or teacher telling you what to think about it.

Edited December 20, 2010 by MamaSheep

[wormbuy]

I don't have time to read all the replies, but Community Bible Study is studying Acts right now, which would be the ancient Christian Church, yes? I don't know if all CBS's are doing this, but check for one in your area and see if they are studying it.....it may be what you are looking for. (just do a websearch for Community Bible Study) Just in case you are not familiar with CBS, it is truly a community study....just the bible, welcomes all faiths, denominations are not discussed....they have women only classes, mixed classes, some with a kids program....great stuff

[JenniferB]

I'm an avid reader of the Bible, but frankly I can't stand "modern" Christian books, music, Christian radio, most popular speakers, or ladies' Bible studies. There really isn't anyone popular in evangelical circles that I truly like as a writer, speaker, or performer.

 

I guess that I'm an anti-modern Christian, if that gives you another term to think about!

 

Yes, I can relate to you. Modern Christian books, music, speakers, and ladies' Bible studies: I cannot take them anymore. I have gone on a 3 year hiatus from ladies' Bible studies, Christian books and speakers, excluding my pastor. I only listen to Christian radio when my children request it, because I don't want to squelch their desire to sing songs to God. The more I stay away from those things the more they seem so odd when I hear quotes, book titles, video recordings, and testimonies. I still want to press closer to God though, just not through those means which I was used to using before.

 

Also, on another note, when I read the Bible, it's through the filter/glasses of the evangelical, or shall I name it modern mind? It's hard to read the Bible with fresh eyes and a fresh mind, when I don't really have a clear perspective yet. I need to get on a new mind before I can read the Bible, or do any Bible studies.

[Sparkle]

 

I think where I want to go next is to study the ancient Christian church. However, I don't really know where to start, and I don't want it to lead to changing churches or converting to another religion. I'm very happy with my church, and I love my friends dearly. I just need something to study that presses me closer to God, and I can't find it in the usual evangelical circles.

 

I'm all for studying about the ancient Christian church. Are you really prepared for that though? What will you do if you feel led to change churches or convert? It's just that I know a lot of people (including me) who were led to converting after studying ancient Christian teachings. I wish you well on your journey.

[JenniferB]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are looking for.

 

I love my church, my Christian friends, and my pastor's teaching style and content, so, I'm not looking to get converted to another religion, I just want to get to know God more, while avoiding all the evangelical mumbo-jumbo out there. I hope that makes sense.

 

I have 7 Internet Explorer tabs open now with book recommendations from this thread, and there seems like some good possibilities. I can't wait to "Look Inside" each one. :001_smile:

[JenniferB]

I'm all for studying about the ancient Christian church. Are you really prepared for that though? What will you do if you feel led to change churches or convert? It's just that I know a lot of people (including me) who were led to converting after studying ancient Christian teachings. I wish you well on your journey.

 

My knees are figuratively knocking in fear of this. I am compelled though. I must do what I am compelled to do, right?