Would you expect a 7th grader to know that Santa isn't real?

[Miss Sherry]

By 7th grade, children should know that there are people in the world who don't believe the same things that they do and to be able to politely receive others' opinions, consider them, and quietly agree or disagree. I think that parents of 7th graders should be able to encourage their children who are confronted with beliefs that contradict the child's beliefs and assist them in handling the receiving and processing of those contradictory opinions and working them (positively or negatively) into their own belief system in a mature and logical way without having to confront every instrument of contradiction personally.

 

I am actually more concerned with the mother's response than I am by the fact that the child chooses to continue to believe in Santa.

:iagree: But I will add that I think for a 12 or 13 year old to still believe in Santa is a bit extreme, although I have seen it happen.

[keptwoman]

I suspect the children either want to keep holding on to that part of their childhood, despite how illogical it may seem, or they are afraid to lose the gifts brought by "Santa".

 

Personally, I never got the point of lying to kids about the existence of these mythological creatures, only to have their belief (and possibly trust) crushed by peers, etc. But, I digress...

I agree that it's likely "belief" rather than BELIEF, for the sake of keeping up the magic. Still, I'd rather my kids believe in that mythological creature than some of the other mythological creatures people seem keen to tell my kids about come Christmas time.

 

 

i still do ~ i remember that awesome excited feeling, laying in bed christmas eve TRYING to fall asleep...counting sheep, singing in my head, trying to create a dream, anything just to GET TO SLEEP so morning would come :laugh:

 

Yeah, I remember laying in bed one night at about 8 years old and being positive I'd heard sleigh bells. So exciting! Miss Sherry, no one is suggesting Christmas can't be wonderful without Santa, but it's wonderfuul with him too!

 

to see those families being called things like "sick", "unhealthy" ,"ignorant" and accused of "manipulating" their kids, or that there is some sort of psychological problem with their kids/kids thinking abilities --- yeah that bothers me. those are pretty strong & hurtful words to use, y'know?

:iagree:

 

Well, I don't think it should come as a surprise to the parents of a seventh grader that Santa be spoken of as a myth by some people.

:iagree:

[Miss Sherry]

That's amazing! I have never heard of a child that age believing in Santa. :001_huh: And to be upset at your dh, even. :lol:

I have heard of a child believing in Santa at that age. But it wasn't because they simply believed it, it was because they had been manipulated and convinced by their relatives to continue to believe it.

 

I think it is unreasonable for parents of 12 or 13 year old's to expect others to "keep" up the belief in Santa when the rest of the kids this age are moving onto analytical thinking and learning.

[Miss Sherry]

:grouphug: I'm sorry you've been set off by the post above.

At the same time, I'm not seeing the personal attack you seem to be responding to. Regardless of how it's worded, it's clear that very few people view a belief in Santa going into the teen years as indicative of healthy critical thinking skills, and I think that's all that was being expressed. Rest assured, none of us is going to come down to your house to tell your kid/s the truth! :D In fact, I don't think anyone here would purposely destroy a belief in Santa, but neither would we expect to have to perpetuate the legend to kids that age. :001_smile:

:iagree: It wasn't a personal attack. She is choosing to see it that way. It's unrealistic to expect other adults to perpetuate the myth of Santa all the way up to 7th grade. The Mom mentioned in the original post was a little off to make an issue out of it, in my opinion.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Miss Sherry

[Laura Corin]

I find this very startling. I can't imagine anyone lasting past age 9, and that is pretty late, IMO.

 

 

Calvin stopped believing at 4. Hobbes still 'believes': I'm pretty sure he knows the truth, but doesn't want to let go of the dream.

 

Laura

[Laurie4b]

Growing up, 2nd grade was the grade that everyone found out in, because once one kid knew, the others did as well.

 

I would expect 7th graders to know about Santa.

 

I would not have guarded my speech in a class in 7th grade, especially when you're talking about the saints.

 

If we plotted the data of the age kids found out about Santa, I would say that a 7th grader would be in the teeny tail of the normal curve.

[Rosie_0801]

I'd think the child and parent were making a fuss for the fun of exercising power. Give them the attention they want and send them away.

 

 

Rosie

[DawnM]

Oh brother! I have no patience for that sort of thing.

[kalphs]

Interesting.

Dh and I told Dd as a 4 yo the real story of St. Nicholas and the legend of Father Christmas.

[Sun]

I think 12 is a bit late in the game to still be believing, deep down, in Santa. I would expect most every child that age to know that Santa was make believe.

 

Calvin stopped believing at 4. Hobbes still 'believes': I'm pretty sure he knows the truth, but doesn't want to let go of the dream.

 

 

:iagree: It seems to me that most kids of that age (and grade 7 is generally kids 12 turning 13, so we're talking almost teens or just-barely teens) who don't know don't necessarily still believe deep down.

 

In my experience a lot of kids who tell their parents they believe don't necessarily really believe. Sometimes they just don't want to risk not getting presents or disappointing their parents. My best friend grew up in a family that really pushed Santa (ashes on the hearth, etc. for Christmas morning), and she let her parents think she believed for years after she knew the truth. There was just too much pressure in her family to believe for her to feel comfortable admitting aloud that Santa wasn't real.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I'm sorry you are having a hard time processing someone elses point of view except by using sarcasm. :glare:

 

 

can we quit with the self help book stuff? :w00t:

 

It wasn't a personal attack. She is choosing to see it that way. It's unrealistic to expect other adults to perpetuate the myth of Santa all the way up to 7th grade. The Mom mentioned in the original post was a little off to make an issue out of it, in my opinion.

 

 

did you read my post where i explained that the words you are using can be quite hurtful to other families? you didn't just say that you were surprised by a child believing after a certain age or that you didn't agree with other adults taking part...

 

would YOU like it if someone came along and said that your family's choices in christmas traditions (or WHATEVER] were sick? that you were manipulating your children? that there was some kind of problem with your kids' thinking abilities? you even went "ewwwww" at them - which i'm still trying to figure out. are you implying that they're gross? smelly? stinky? disgusting? what?

[Gwenhwyfar]

:iagree: It seems to me that most kids of that age (and grade 7 is generally kids 12 turning 13

 

i think THIS is also having some effects on how people answer the post... those ages are eighth grade where i'm from, unless a child has been held back. seventh graders are mostly 11 at the beginning of the year.... the difference between 11 and 13 is immense for most kids.

[katemary63]

Any child of normal intelligence in 7th grade (at least 12) that hasn't figured out for himself that Santa Clause isn't real is seriously behing in critical thinking skills. I would absolutely assume it was safe to discuss the legend of Santa Clause with a 7th grader.

 

:iagree: I would add that any parent still fostering the fantasy of Santa for 7th graders is making a mistake. I thought this was a joke at first. There's not way on earth a 7th grader hasn't heard the truth by now. Weird.

[katemary63]

I'm shocked that anyone thinks 7th graders would not know, and I think that at that age the kids are just playing along really well for the parents' sake.

 

The parents probably need to reassess their idea of what it will take to raise mentally/emotionally mature teens. At some point we should be encouraging our children to make mature decisions, and the ability to make mature decisions rests (in large part) upon being able to identify *truth*. Do they not want that for their teens? :confused: There are plenty of other meaningful and memorable traditions (beyond believing the Santa legend) that can be celebrated in a way that will build up maturity rather than tearing it down. :001_smile:

 

Great post. :iagree:

[justamouse]

At my house we ALL believe in Santa, and we'll keep believing as long as we want. Now, I've never asked my 11 yo if he still actually believes or not, and I can pretty much tell by the half smile when we talk about it he doesn't but it's not because we've told him-he's older, he knows. And he better not say a darned WORD about it because I still believe in Santa. :D

 

Cripes, don't people have imaginations anymore? Can we just have some fun, let kids have a bit of magic without stomping our adult reality all over their lives?

 

In my house we believe in gnomes, elves, fae, orcs, the occasional alien, dragons, vampire bunnies, dogs that talk and mice that wear clothes. Santa and the Toothfairy, the Easter bunny, leprechauns, mermaids and unicorns. I have sparkly beads in every window that my 4 yo put there to bring the good fairies into he house. Watching her do that for a day was magic. Then she took a canning magnet, stuck a canning loop on it and danced so they fairies would come play with her. It was delightful to watch. My 11 yo writes wonderful stories that involve mythical beasts and wonderful magic. That is how. Because we believe in Santa.

 

as an aside, and in all honesty, the people who draw children's illustrations, the writers and artists of the Bridge to Terebithia-- I can think of a hundred jobs that draw on a brain full of magic, myths and legends. The people who do those jobs are the ones that never let an adult steal the magic.

Edited November 3, 2010 by justamouse

[Mrs Mungo]

At my house we ALL believe in Santa, and we'll keep believing as long as we want. Now, I've never asked my 11 yo if he still actually believes or not, and I can pretty much tell by the half smile when we talk about it he doesn't but it's not because we've told him-he's older, he knows. And he better not say a darned WORD about it because I still believe in Santa. :D

 

Cripes, don't people have imaginations anymore? Can we just have some fun, let kids have a bit of magic without stomping our adult reality all over their lives?

 

Who is doing the stomping in the case of the OP?

 

If the parent wants to preserve the magic all they have to say is "wow, it's a shame Mr. Smith doesn't believe, he must not get presents!"

 

I would expect a discussion of Catholic saints in a *religious confirmation class* to include discussion of well-known historical figures like Saint Nicholas, Saint Patrick and so forth. I would expect facts and stories to be presented.

 

It is ridiculous, IMO, to *complain* that your child is being given historical information.

[justamouse]

Who is doing the stomping in the case of the OP?

 

If the parent wants to preserve the magic all they have to say is "wow, it's a shame Mr. Smith doesn't believe, he must not get presents!"

 

I would expect a discussion of Catholic saints in a *religious confirmation class* to include discussion of well-known historical figures like Saint Nicholas, Saint Patrick and so forth. I would expect facts and stories to be presented.

 

It is ridiculous, IMO, to *complain* that your child is being given historical information.

 

In the case of the op, in a confirmation class, yeah, I totally get it. My kids can tell what is reality and we're even studying all of that now. And we talk about how myths like that get started.

 

But I only read the first post and the last page where it was inferred that people who believe in Santa lack thinking skills. For the parent to complain to a teacher, not so much, but for other people to roll their eyes and wonder HOW people can perpetuate these horrible myths? :001_huh: Some of us celebrate a rich imagination and use those stories as tools to cultivate it.

 

stomping-you can talk to a lot of children's authors and they will tell you that they write for kids because kids believe. Their suspension of disbelief is much easier to slide into and that way the stories that get told are more fun. They won't question when a fully dressed hippo walks into a room of a story that so far, held only humans. And adults do stomp all over that, the earliest being with Santa.

Edited November 3, 2010 by justamouse

[Laurie4b]

:iagree: It seems to me that most kids of that age (and grade 7 is generally kids 12 turning 13, so we're talking almost teens or just-barely teens) who don't know don't necessarily still believe deep down.

 

In my experience a lot of kids who tell their parents they believe don't necessarily really believe. Sometimes they just don't want to risk not getting presents or disappointing their parents. My best friend grew up in a family that really pushed Santa (ashes on the hearth, etc. for Christmas morning), and she let her parents think she believed for years after she knew the truth. There was just too much pressure in her family to believe for her to feel comfortable admitting aloud that Santa wasn't real.

 

Exactly. I knew that Santa wasn't real about 2nd grade. I had suspected it and a friend "spilled the beans" BUT I was not going to tell my parents I knew. I got the idea I wasn't supposed to know and that by knowing I had kind of done something wrong. After all, my parents were putting effort into convincing me otherwise... so knowing made me feel guilty and then I had to fake not knowing. ugh. Anyhoo, I wouldn't assume that a parent's knowledge of their kid's belief is always 100% accurate.

[Heatherwith4]

My sister is nine years younger than me. I convinced her to let our parents think she still believed in Santa because we got more presents that way. :)

Personally, I think it's odd to still believe in Santa at that age. However, what's truly crazy is the mom calling to complain about the mention of Santa as a legend.

[Miss Sherry]

I'm shocked that anyone thinks 7th graders would not know, and I think that at that age the kids are just playing along really well for the parents' sake.

 

The parents probably need to reassess their idea of what it will take to raise mentally/emotionally mature teens. At some point we should be encouraging our children to make mature decisions, and the ability to make mature decisions rests (in large part) upon being able to identify *truth*. Do they not want that for their teens? :confused: There are plenty of other meaningful and memorable traditions (beyond believing the Santa legend) that can be celebrated in a way that will build up maturity rather than tearing it down. :001_smile:

I would be shocked too to find 12 or 13 year old's still believing ( truly convinced and not pretending ) that Santa is real IF it wasn't for the time I saw a 13 year old boy weeping uncontrollably because he had just found out that Santa wasn't real. It's hard to believe, I know, that there really ARE some kids that OLD who are genuinely still convinced Santa is real. I think there's more to it than simply believing in Santa. I think it's also wanting to believe that everything your parents tell you is true.

 

I was a little shocked when I found out that kid still believed in Santa. We all were, except his parents who had gone to great lengths to keep him in the dark that way. :tongue_smilie:

[Miss Sherry]

At my house we ALL believe in Santa, and we'll keep believing as long as we want. Now, I've never asked my 11 yo if he still actually believes or not, and I can pretty much tell by the half smile when we talk about it he doesn't but it's not because we've told him-he's older, he knows. And he better not say a darned WORD about it because I still believe in Santa. :D

 

Cripes, don't people have imaginations anymore? Can we just have some fun, let kids have a bit of magic without stomping our adult reality all over their lives?

 

In my house we believe in gnomes, elves, fae, orcs, the occasional alien, dragons, vampire bunnies, dogs that talk and mice that wear clothes. Santa and the Toothfairy, the Easter bunny, leprechauns, mermaids and unicorns. I have sparkly beads in every window that my 4 yo put there to bring the good fairies into he house. Watching her do that for a day was magic. Then she took a canning magnet, stuck a canning loop on it and danced so they fairies would come play with her. It was delightful to watch. My 11 yo writes wonderful stories that involve mythical beasts and wonderful magic. That is how. Because we believe in Santa.

 

as an aside, and in all honesty, the people who draw children's illustrations, the writers and artists of the Bridge to Terebithia-- I can think of a hundred jobs that draw on a brain full of magic, myths and legends. The people who do those jobs are the ones that never let an adult steal the magic.

Actually, your are talking about imagination and pretend. That's one thing. Actual "BELIEF" at the age of 12 or 13 which goes beyond pretend is something else.

The 13 year old boy I mentioned was not just PRETENDING in his imagination about a creative story. It went beyond that to him thinking it was real and true that Santa was real. I have a hard time calling that normal thinking for a 12 or 13 year old. It was so much a part of his thinking that he was very traumatized and grieving when he found out Santa wasn't real.It was not FUN seeing how traumatized he was. I think that it is s.t.r.a.n.g.e for a parent to go to such extreme lengths to hold onto that kind of thinking for so l.o.n.g. That's a rare instance, I think anyway, but it does happen.

[justamouse]

Actually, your are talking about imagination and pretend. That's one thing. Actual "BELIEF" at the age of 12 or 13 which goes beyond pretend is something else.

The 13 year old boy I mentioned was not just PRETENDING in his imagination about a creative story. It went beyond that to him thinking it was real and true that Santa was real. I have a hard time calling that normal thinking for a 12 or 13 year old. It was so much a part of his thinking that he was very traumatized and grieving when he found out Santa wasn't real.It was not FUN seeing how traumatized he was. I think that it is s.t.r.a.n.g.e for a parent to go to such extreme lengths to hold onto that kind of thinking for so l.o.n.g. That's a rare instance, I think anyway, but it does happen.

 

Some kids are immature and there's not much you can do about it.

[Miss Sherry]

can we quit with the self help book stuff?

 

 

 

 

did you read my post where i explained that the words you are using can be quite hurtful to other families? you didn't just say that you were surprised by a child believing after a certain age or that you didn't agree with other adults taking part...

 

would YOU like it if someone came along and said that your family's choices in christmas traditions (or WHATEVER] were sick? that you were manipulating your children? that there was some kind of problem with your kids' thinking abilities? you even went "ewwwww" at them - which i'm still trying to figure out. are you implying that they're gross? smelly? stinky? disgusting? what?

:chillpill::chillpill: I think it is STRANGE for a 12 or 13 year old to not be able to tell the difference between pretend and fantasy. That should be a basic thinking skill by that age. Don't you think ? Of course there are exceptions when we are talking about developmental differences. RIGHT?

:chillpill::chillpill: It's not mean to have a different view than you. But you ARE being mean in your harsh statement. Back off and :chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:

I am allowed to think differently than you, whether you like it or not, regardless of how MEAN you are trying to make it sound.

 

This is NOT about you, although apparently you think this whole thread is about you. Try to get over yourself.

The words gross, smelly, stinky, disgusting are all YOUR words, which are all RUDE. Like I've already said you simply need to :chillpill:

Having seen first hand how parents can and DO sometimes hurt kids as old as 12 or 13 by manipulating them to think Santa is real and not just pretend has caused me to think that this type of behavior by parents of kids that old, is quite frankly, a very bad idea. They should be helping kids that age LEARN to THINK critically - not manipulate them into NOT thinking critically. Come ON. That's REALLY just COMMON SENSE. Think about it. There are very FEW kids by the age of 12 or 13 who still believe Santa is anything more than pretend. For GOOD reason. Also, some who claim to still believe by that age will tell you when they are older that they didn't "really believe" but were just saying they did to go along with their parents who were pushing it.

You are going to tell me that I'm calling people gross? smelly? stinky? disgusting? and you don't think that YOU are being mean. It sounds to me that your post to me is ALL about being mean.

I'm not changing my views. I still think it's odd to not do better by a 12 or 13 year old in expecting them to have more mature critical thinking skills. Let's be REAL here.

How can you possibly expect MOST adults to agree that a 12 or 13 year old is not going to usually be smarter and more advanced in critical thinking than to still think Santa is real and not fantasy. I think it's more than a little ridiculous to think otherwise.

It's almost hard to believe it would even be questioned.

I'm so sorry this is such a difficult and emotional issue for you. But as an adult surely you must understand that on a board of thousands of people others ARE going to have different views than you and each other and it is NOT a personal attack on you regardless of how you try to twist it and spin it and make it look like an attack.

If you think everyone who thinks 12 or 13 is too old to really believe in Santa is against you I feel sorry for you because that includes the majority of people. And guess what. They aren't against you. It's just a different opinion. Good grief.

 

By the way - some things are a little odd and not healthy no matter how you spin it.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Miss Sherry

[fairytalemama]

I know that might make me seem a little dense, but I had a "supernatural" tooth fairy experience. I was on a mission to catch the tooth fairy, who I assumed was my mother. I was gripping the tooth in my hand under my pillow, pretending to be asleep while my parents were still awake. Next thing I know I have a quarter in my hand and my tooth is gone. My parents are still awake because the lights were on in the living room. At that moment, I was firmly convinced the tooth fairy was real.

 

My mom finally burst my bubble one day when we were riding in the car and she asked me to help her sneak my little sister some money for her tooth that night. Apparently, there was a short period of time that fateful night when I was asleep and she managed to get the tooth out of my hand and the money in. We had a good laugh about it.

 

I too would have assumed that a 7th grader would have a clue about Santa's existence, but the tooth fairy on the other hand... :tongue_smilie:

[Jennifer3141]

I have a difficult time believing that in this day and age, the child in question didn't already know.

 

This sounds more to me like parents who are a tad out of touch with their kid, kind of in the same way that I've heard some parents claim their pregnant teen has never even thought of sex. :confused:

 

I read the title at first to be 7 YEARS old and felt like hiding the screen from my 6 year old. But 7th GRADE? Really?

 

I still look for fairies on certain walks. I like believing Santa is a spirit and that any one of us can become him when the time is right.

 

But hopefully a 13 year old has grasped that the sleigh going around the world in a night is pretty astounding. And how would a 13 year old not understand poverty and Santa? There are a whole lot of kids all over the world who are oging to wake up December 25 and get nothing. This child never noticed that???

 

I cannot imagne calling a teacher over this. :tongue_smilie:

[Jennifer3141]

 

I too would have assumed that a 7th grader would have a clue about Santa's existence, but the tooth fairy on the other hand... :tongue_smilie:

 

Wait. The Tooth Fairy isn't real??

 

That was a super cute story! :grouphug:

[keptwoman]

:chillpill::chillpill: I think it is STRANGE for a 12 or 13 year old to not be able to tell the difference between pretend and fantasy. That should be a basic thinking skill by that age. Don't you think ? Of course there are exceptions when we are talking about developmental differences. RIGHT?

:chillpill::chillpill: It's not mean to have a different view than you. But you ARE being mean in your harsh statement. Back off and :chillpill::chillpill:

I am allowed to think differently than you, whether you like it or not, regardless of how MEAN you are trying to make it sound.

Holy smokes :confused: I'm thinking you need a :chillpill:

[Peela]

Sounds like the OP's Dh was just doing his job. I tihnk it si perfectly appropriate for a 7th grader to be taught the historical aspect of the story. The parent is a bit out of touch, which is fine, but reality caught up with them.

[dcjlkplus3]

By 7th grade I knew, but would never have said anything since I was the oldest and didn't want to spoil the fun for any of the youngers (including a 1yo brother).

Maybe the mom just didn't know that she knew, KWIM?

[Sophia]

Why would a parent NOT want their 12 or 13 year old to be developing ADULT level critical thinking skills at that point rather than perpetuating a silly fantasy ? :tongue_smilie:

 

 

:iagree:

Seventh grade is the logic stage, after all. The teacher was making connections for a classroom of children who should be ready to think through this information.

If a parent doesn't want connections made for her child, then she should keep her home.

~And I'm not trying to be snide.

I know I don't want specific things taught to my dc, which is why I homeschool.

But when I outsource classes~I let the teachers do their job.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Sophia

[Jen in PA]

When I was in elementary school (in the 80s) the 4th - 6th graders answered the letters to Santa written by the 1st - 3rd graders. By fourth grade we certainly did things in our Girl Scout troop that involved knowing the truth. I think the mom who called to complain was extremely unrealistic!

[Audrey]

I don't think any age is ever "safe" to assume whether or not someone still believes in any myths and legends. What is real to one may be fluff and nonsense to another, but that does not lessen the reality to the one who truly believes. It is rather cruel to crush what someone holds dear, no matter how silly you might think they are for believing in it. I think it might behoove adults to remember that more often. After all, there are plenty of people who may think that their "adult" beliefs in deities are just as fanciful and immature as a child's belief in Santa. I'm sure it would hurt just as much as this child may have been hurt.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Audrey

[Perry]

Holy smokes :confused: I'm thinking you need a :chillpill:

:iagree:

Sheesh.

[Ester Maria]

Well, when I went to school, most of children had come to the first grade having figured it out already; if there were odd few who hadn't, they certainly got their bubble burst in the first grade - after all, it was also a school content ("the legends of...", "the national customes of...", etc.), plus they certainly talked to their peers about presents, Christmas and all.

I never believed in the first place, because Santa is obviously an antisemite :tongue_smilie:, so the sole fact that the Jewish children's houses were "skipped" might have also burst somebody's bubble.

 

In my view, I always considered the initial grades of school - sort of K-2 period - the time one quits "buying" Santa, Befana, Tooth Fairy, you name it. It's a mix of peer influence, the beginning of formal education and a normal cognitive development of the child. Mind you, even 3rd-4th grade is a "late discovery" in my mind; I'd consider a child an especially immature one (from the point of view of cognitive and intellectual maturity) if they were to find out in that period, though it's perfectly fine that they may still fancy Santa and pretend they believe and all. It's not a fine line, but about 10 or so is a pretty late discovery in my eyes (and experience).

 

But 5th?! 6th?! 7th?!?!

Let me put it bluntly: I'd worry. I'd worry something, somewhere, went wrong in my child's education and intellectual development. Seventh graders are BIG children - emphasis on big, not on children. Seventh graders know WAY too much about customs, legends, national and religious heritage, art, not to mention science, to be "buying" Santa. Last year, I was laughing over this article with my then-11 and then-12 year old daughters, and even then they knew enough science to follow it. At 13, if a child cannot reason approximately in this fashion, it's not cute, people, it's developmentally inappropriate. Not to even mention that, even if a child doesn't reason so clearly and in precise terms, the sole idea that a double-digit aged child doesn't put such an implausible idea to question... Just sounds wrong to me. Such a child, at 13 years old, must be dangerously sheltered, to the point of a complete lack of touch with many things, not just one particular piece of information.

 

So yes, if I were to hold a class to a bunch of 13 y.o.s, I would certainly assume it was safe to talk about Santa as a legend. The mother's reaction in this case is tragicomic.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Ester Maria

[Deeke]

"the teen years" - that's very different to me than kids of 10, 11, even turning 12...which is what you most often see in the seventh grade.

 

i was 11 - in grade seven - when i found out. my dd13 was 11.5 when she came and asked for the truth, as she was suspicious. my ds12 still believes, although this is, as i said before, a special needs situation...he will believe for years if we continue to play - and we likely will, as he's brand new to the 'magic'. :D

 

there were other posters who mentioned that their kids were of similar ages - and i've known many others with kids around 11 who still believed...relatives, friends' kids, etc. 11 seems to be a common year for it to get "figured out", in my experience.

 

to see those families being called things like "sick", "unhealthy" ,"ignorant" and accused of "manipulating" their kids, or that there is some sort of psychological problem with their kids/kids thinking abilities --- yeah that bothers me. those are pretty strong & hurtful words to use, y'know?

 

the whole "should the teacher have said anything" - if i was a teacher...well, i think i'd err on the side of caution with the seventh graders because i've known a fair few who still believed at 11goingon12....but that's just how i would handle it.

 

(..and as it happens, i don't agree with the parent calling the school and throwing a fit. ;) )

 

All I can say is WOW! My daughter was 11 starting grade 7 last year, sure she may have "known" Santa was not real, but she still believed I am sure. What is the big deal, should we be worried she will grow up with an assortment of problems as a result....ugh NO! My 10, almost 11 year old boy in grade 6 also still believes and again...so what?? I guess we can compare it to adults still believing in a god in 2010 and manipulating their children into believing also? Some would, take out Santa, insert god or whatever imaginary person/creature and hmmm....can't have that now can we?

[Gwenhwyfar]

can we quit with the self help book stuff?

did you read my post where i explained that the words you are using can be quite hurtful to other families? you didn't just say that you were surprised by a child believing after a certain age or that you didn't agree with other adults taking part...

 

would YOU like it if someone came along and said that your family's choices in christmas traditions (or WHATEVER] were sick? that you were manipulating your children? that there was some kind of problem with your kids' thinking abilities? you even went "ewwwww" at them - which i'm still trying to figure out. are you implying that they're gross? smelly? stinky? disgusting? what?

 

 

:chillpill: I think it is STRANGE for a 12 or 13 year old to not be able to tell the difference between pretend and fantasy. That should be a basic thinking skill by that age. Don't you think ? Of course there are exceptions when we are talking about developmental differences. RIGHT?

:chillpill::chillpill: It's not mean to have a different view than you. But you ARE being mean in your harsh statement. Back off and :chillpill::chillpill:

I am allowed to think differently than you, whether you like it or not, regardless of how MEAN you are trying to make it sound.

 

This is NOT about you, although apparently you think this whole thread is about you. Try to get over yourself.

The words gross, smelly, stinky, disgusting are all YOUR words, which are all RUDE. Like I've already said you simply need to :chillpill:

Having seen first hand how parents can and DO sometimes hurt kids as old as 12 or 13 by manipulating them to think Santa is real and not just pretend has caused me to think that this type of behavior by parents of kids that old, is quite frankly, a very bad idea. They should be helping kids that age LEARN to THINK critically - not manipulate them into NOT thinking critically. Come ON. That's REALLY just COMMON SENSE. Think about it. There are very FEW kids by the age of 12 or 13 who still believe Santa is anything more than pretend. For GOOD reason. Also, some who claim to still believe by that age will tell you when they are older that they didn't "really believe" but were just saying they did to go along with their parents who were pushing it.

You are going to tell me that I'm calling people gross? smelly? stinky? disgusting? and you don't think that YOU are being mean. It sounds to me that your post to me is ALL about being mean.

I'm not changing my views. I still think it's odd to not do better by a 12 or 13 year old in expecting them to have more mature critical thinking skills. Let's be REAL here.

How can you possibly expect MOST adults to agree that a 12 or 13 year old is not going to usually be smarter and more advanced in critical thinking than to still think Santa is real and not fantasy. I think it's more than a little ridiculous to think otherwise.

It's almost hard to believe it would even be questioned.

I'm so sorry this is such a difficult and emotional issue for you. But as an adult surely you must understand that on a board of thousands of people others ARE going to have different views than you and each other and it is NOT a personal attack on you regardless of how you try to twist it and spin it and make it look like an attack.

If you think everyone who thinks 12 or 13 is too old to really believe in Santa is against you I feel sorry for you because that includes the majority of people. And guess what. They aren't against you. It's just a different opinion. Good grief.

 

By the way - some things are a little odd and not healthy no matter how you spin it.

 

that is such a PRETTY little icon! such a LOVELY blend of BLUE and PINK! :chillpill:

 

i don't know what wound you up so much ~ i barely spoke about my own kids in this thread, aside from mentioning their ages...i haven't freaked out and gone all OMGPERSONALATTACK anywhere.

 

i asked if you could recognize that the words you used could be hurtful to people who choose to continue their family christmas traditions longer than others - it's possible to have a different opinion without resorting to that kind of thing.

 

anyway, i'm done with all this...i've got some gummi bears and a very hot vampire with a soul calling my name. :D

[vettechmomof2]

My 11 year old daughter still believes and we all enjoy that.

No one gives her or us a hard time about it and we still read myths/legends and have no issues there.

She has NO developmental disorders, is very active with many different hobbies, 4-H, very emotional mature for her age and ability to reason but we enjoy sharing the "magic" of Santa.

I would not have been upset though if someone mentioned to her the legend of Santa. We would have just discussed it as a different view point.

[Ester Maria]

I guess we can compare it to adults still believing in a god in 2010 and manipulating their children into believing also? Some would, take out Santa, insert god or whatever imaginary person/creature and hmmm....can't have that now can we?

Actually - we can't.

 

God is, philosophically, a LOT more complex issue than Santa (and I'm saying this as an atheist). For Santa, just go to the link in my previous post - all of the knowledges contained in that article are within reach and experience even of a child younger than 12-13 old, and even a younger child should be able to reason that way (perhaps not so clearly or so precisely, but their reasoning should go along those lines, given all they know about the world, science and cultures of the world).

 

But God, God is a tough cookie. Invisible, in fact, not even corporeal (a mind that's not generated by a body! - it takes a HIGH level of sophistication of thought to understand the concept in the first place, and perhaps not every 7th grader is ready for that yet); not a subject to human laws, in fact, all human laws are derived from his arbitrary decisions; all of our moral and aesthetical perceptions are shaped by his nature (what we perceive as good, etc.), and so forth. God is a lot tougher to philosophically disprove than Santa, if we're not talking about "popular religion" (an old guy with a beard in the sky). I wouldn't expect that level of sophistication of an average 7th grader yet.

And while you can even claim Santa a miralce - a temporary suspension of physical laws which occurs once yearly - it's still totally unsupported by any religious text that I know of :tongue_smilie:, which is why a whole lot of religious people don't "do" Santa the way to trick the kids into thinking Santa actually exists.

 

It's not comparable. God, outside of the meaning of the word in "popular religon", is a completely different concept, on a completely different sophisication level, than Santa is.

[justamouse]

I don't think any age is ever "safe" to assume whether or not someone still believes in any myths and legends. What is real to one may be fluff and nonsense to another, but that does not lessen the reality to the one who truly believes. It is rather cruel to crush what someone holds dear, no matter how silly you might think they are for believing in it. I think it might behoove adults to remember that more often. After all, there are plenty of people who may think that their "adult" beliefs in deities are just as fanciful and immature as a child's belief in Santa. I'm sure it would hurt just as much as this child may have been hurt.

 

:iagree:

My 11 year old daughter still believes and we all enjoy that.

No one gives her or us a hard time about it and we still read myths/legends and have no issues there.

She has NO developmental disorders, is very active with many different hobbies, 4-H, very emotional mature for her age and ability to reason but we enjoy sharing the "magic" of Santa.

I would not have been upset though if someone mentioned to her the legend of Santa. We would have just discussed it as a different view point.

 

You know, I'm the one that said maybe they were immature, and I was saying it because I was trying to placate a very upset poster who will not be named. ;) I meant no insult, I'm sorry. I actually think that is fantastic and wish more kids did believe.

[justamouse]

 

 

And while you can even claim Santa a miracle - a temporary suspension of physical laws which occurs once yearly - it's still totally unsupported by any religious text that I know of :tongue_smilie:, .

 

see, now that was the avenue I was going to argue from. shoot, you took away all my fun :D

[mom2denj]

Well, I don't think it should come as a surprise to the parents of a seventh grader that Santa be spoken of as a myth by some people.

 

:iagree:Well said! By 7th grade they have got to be in a bubble if they TRULY still believe (unless they have special needs). By 7th grade they need to know the truth.

Edited November 4, 2010 by mom2denj

[Laurie4b]

I don't think any age is ever "safe" to assume whether or not someone still believes in any myths and legends. What is real to one may be fluff and nonsense to another, but that does not lessen the reality to the one who truly believes. It is rather cruel to crush what someone holds dear, no matter how silly you might think they are for believing in it. I think it might behoove adults to remember that more often. After all, there are plenty of people who may think that their "adult" beliefs in deities are just as fanciful and immature as a child's belief in Santa. I'm sure it would hurt just as much as this child may have been hurt.

 

:001_rolleyes: patronizing

Edited November 4, 2010 by Laurie4b

[Sophia]

I guess we can compare it to adults still believing in a god in 2010 and manipulating their children into believing also? Some would, take out Santa, insert god or whatever imaginary person/creature and hmmm....can't have that now can we?

 

Christians are actually taught that the world will hate them for choosing to follow Jesus. The Christian children I know are also taught that their beliefs will be questioned and ridiculed.

So it's not really comparable to a child whose parents don't want their child's belief questioned or challenged.

 

I don't know about the other gods.

[clarkacademy]

I would think it would depend on the family mostly. Yes I would expect them to know but then again... Who am I to say what is or is not normal. I think in a way once children learn Santa, The Easter Bunny etc. is not real childhood loses some magic and maybe these parents wanted to keep that as long as they could. They are only children so long and sadly every day they grow a bit more. Due to media, peers and environmental factors they grow way tooo fast so in all reality what would be the harm? My son is 9 and every year he will ask is Santa real? I just tell him he is as real as you need him to be.

[justamouse]

OK, I'm breaking out the Sambuca, who's with me? Baily's? It's got a little holiday flavor to it, this is a Santa thread.... (I leave the Patron for the tough threads, like the evolution).

[Lawana]

OK, I'm breaking out the Sambuca, who's with me? Baily's? It's got a little holiday flavor to it, this is a Santa thread.... (I leave the Patron for the tough threads, like the evolution).

:cheers2: Do you think this will be the latest shoesnoshoes/crockpot/shoppingcart thread?

[Deeke]

Christians are actually taught that the world will hate them for choosing to follow Jesus. The Christian children I know are also taught that their beliefs will be questioned and ridiculed.

So it's not really comparable to a child whose parents don't want their child's belief questioned or challenged.

 

I don't know about the other gods.

 

The point is WHO CARES, who or what does it hurt for these kids to still believe a little later than some? Implying that they must have something wrong with them, or be sheltered, have mental issues...what is that about? Seriously, what is the harm? Show me some stats that these kids will be permanently scarred for life lol because they believed a little longer than some.

[vettechmomof2]

:iagree:

 

 

You know, I'm the one that said maybe they were immature, and I was saying it because I was trying to placate a very upset poster who will not be named. ;) I meant no insult, I'm sorry. I actually think that is fantastic and wish more kids did believe.

 

Oh, I did not take any of the postings personally. I was only posting how my daughter still enjoys the thought of Santa and is a mature girl who is very intelligent in reasoning and logic. :)

It also helps that she is the oldest I guess but we all enjoy the thought of Santa together.

[myfunnybunch]

I still don't think the real issue here is whether or not the child believes in Santa, or even whether the parents are right or wrong to allow or encourage him believe.

 

To me the issue is that the expectation that a pastor teaching a confirmation class not make a connection between a historical religious figure and the legend that grew up around him is an unreasonable expectation. His intention wasn't to crush belief in Santa or to reveal the "truth."

 

A simple, "Many people don't believe Santa is real. What do you think, dear child?" from the parents to the child would have gone a lot further to lessen the blow than an indignant phone call to the pastor.

 

Cat

[justamouse]

:cheers2: Do you think this will be the latest shoesnoshoes/crockpot/shoppingcart thread?

 

It's almost Friday, I'll say yes. *g*

 

Oh, I did not take any of the postings personally. I was only posting how my daughter still enjoys the thought of Santa and is a mature girl who is very intelligent in reasoning and logic. :)

It also helps that she is the oldest I guess but we all enjoy the thought of Santa together.

 

that is wonderful and I'm so glad you posted about your daughter.