When do you report somoeone for child abuse?

[JenC3]

I'm still shaking from this. Tonight during the break between my dd's ballet class I was standing outside one of the 2 bathrooms to fill our water bottle and a mother was inside yelling at her dd with as much venom and vicousness I have ever heard. She ws intermittingly beating the child over a potential F on a homework assignment. It was awful. I can't even describe it. There was no doubt in my mind she was abusing her child. I knocked loudly on the door because I was compelled to try and stop it, but the woman yelled that someone was in there and did not come out. I went back in the waiting area and grabbed my toddler and waited at the door. The woman came out finally with her obviously upset dd and gave me a death look.

 

I went back in the waiting area and another mother I know was also visibly upset. She has been observing this family (there is a brother) for a while and had just overheard the dd tell the brother their mother was choking her in the bathroom. Both children looked scared to death and the mom I know was like me practically in tears. They left the studio and we told the teacher/owner what happened. I wanted her to be aware that the girl would likely be distracted.

 

They came back in 15 minutes later and the girl went into the class. A Father that I know knew what was going on and told me last week she was freaking out outside. These children look broken. This woman is a 5th grade teacher. When do you report someone? All I can think about is that this was a public place so what is going on at home is probably worse:(

 

I'm sick, really sick about it and don't know if I should do anything. It was worse than a Mommie Dearest. I didn't "see" it but what I heard was terrible, I don't think i could have seen it without completely losing it. I was abused so I know that venom, but choking??????

 

Okay during the writing of this post the ballet teacher called me to discuss this since she took the girl aside into the prop room as a helper and she was crying so badly and finally said she had gotten a bad grade in school. The teacher is calling the other 2 parents as well to get all the info together so she may report it. Should I call to make a report tonight?

[EJCMom]

I would. Those poor kids. :grouphug: I think that if I were in this situation I would feel worse about not reporting it than I would about reporting it. KWIM?

[Heather in OK]

Absolutely.

[anneofalamo]

I am not sure of your state's regulations, some states, teachers, doctors, clergy and instructors are required by law to contact Child Protection Services.

If you want to remain anonymous, you can google abuse hotlines for your area and call. You can tell everything first before giving names and the hot line can give better information.

If you are willing (and this is a big step) to be a witness, I would contact the instructor that you are going to call CPS, so that it is done as a team.

 

Frustration in the system is rampant, but there is no help if no report is made....it is a step!

[Dobela]

I would. You can make the report anonymously when you call the hotline numbers. It doesn't matter that the woman is ateacher. She needs to be stopped. If there are several reports then the social workers will be more likely to follow up and they will most likely do it faster than if there is just one report.

[Tree House Academy]

Wow. I just don't know what to say. Being a parent that was wrongly accused of "abuse" when my son came to school with a mark on his neck from falling off a stool (long story on what happened and I won't go into it all, but I surely was not beating him!), I hesitate to accuse anyone of such a thing. However, it sounds like you and other parents were witness to this and could hear and see the after effects of the mother's tirade.

 

Before I reported child abuse, I would make sure this is an ongoing issue and not something out of the ordinary. I think about things like, what if the mom is going through a divorce, she has an elderly parent who just died, or something else that has her completely not thinking right. If that is the case, this may be something that is not normal for her and something that, if someone would just reach out to her, could be stopped.

 

Like I said, this is just a tough call....I am sorry you had to hear that. That poor child - all that over an F on a homework assignment. :( It makes me want to cry!

[JenC3]

I just left a message with the after hours operator. I guess they will call me tomorrow? My husband and mother (she worked in SS) urged me too.

[mcconnellboys]

Are you kidding me? This person is a TEACHER and not only has access to her own two children, but to a classroom of children whom she may also be abusing, mentally, if not physically. Yes, call. Call now.

[Heatherwith4]

Yes, for Pete's sake, call!!! :grouphug:

 

ETA: oops, I see you already called. I'm glad. I hope these poor dc can get some help. :(

Edited September 29, 2010 by heatherwith3
update

[JenC3]

Wow. I just don't know what to say. Being a parent that was wrongly accused of "abuse" when my son came to school with a mark on his neck from falling off a stool (long story on what happened and I won't go into it all, but I surely was not beating him!), I hesitate to accuse anyone of such a thing. However, it sounds like you and other parents were witness to this and could hear and see the after effects of the mother's tirade.

 

Before I reported child abuse, I would make sure this is an ongoing issue and not something out of the ordinary. I think about things like, what if the mom is going through a divorce, she has an elderly parent who just died, or something else that has her completely not thinking right. If that is the case, this may be something that is not normal for her and something that, if someone would just reach out to her, could be stopped.

 

 

Like I said, this is just a tough call....I am sorry you had to hear that. That poor child - all that over an F on a homework assignment. :( It makes me want to cry!

 

 

I know what you are saying and it's a concern of mine, but this was in no way not a just losing control the behavior was of ongoing abuse. I know it with certainty because I experienced it. Another mother has been observing this family so she will have more "background to report and she was the one who heard the dd say to her brother that her mother had been choking her. Really I should have run to get the teacher. I panicked and just started pounding on the door when she just wasn't stopping.

[Tree House Academy]

I know what you are saying and it's a concern of mine, but this was in no way not a just losing control the behavior was of ongoing abuse. I know it with certainty because I experienced it. Another mother has been observing this family so she will have more "background to report and she was the one who heard the dd say to her brother that her mother had been choking her. Really I should have run to get the teacher. I panicked and just started pounding on the door when she just wasn't stopping.

 

 

It sounds like you made the right decision then. :grouphug: to you for having to make such a hard call.

[scrapbabe]

Wow. I just don't know what to say. Being a parent that was wrongly accused of "abuse" when my son came to school with a mark on his neck from falling off a stool (long story on what happened and I won't go into it all, but I surely was not beating him!), I hesitate to accuse anyone of such a thing. However, it sounds like you and other parents were witness to this and could hear and see the after effects of the mother's tirade.

 

Before I reported child abuse, I would make sure this is an ongoing issue and not something out of the ordinary. I think about things like, what if the mom is going through a divorce, she has an elderly parent who just died, or something else that has her completely not thinking right. If that is the case, this may be something that is not normal for her and something that, if someone would just reach out to her, could be stopped.

 

Like I said, this is just a tough call....I am sorry you had to hear that. That poor child - all that over an F on a homework assignment. :( It makes me want to cry!

 

:iagree: I had a similar experience.

[simka2]

Just wanted to say...good job. I have been in this situation before myself, and I am a mandatory reporter. I heard a child being spanked severly thru the walls of an appartment we lived in once. I called and they handled it very well. Sometimes the parents need a very strong wake up call. Even then I wasn't sure it was abuse, but I needed to know I had aired on the side of caution.

[Pamela H in Texas]

If the children aren't really being abused, it isn't going to hurt to have CPS knock on the door. If they are, then the services the family can be offered may turn things around for this family. Of course, there are a number of bad outcomes (kids don't get help they need or CPS using a jackhammer when a screwdriver would have worked); but that isn't our responsibility. At this point, the children (both this sibling group and possibly this woman's classes) have been given a voice by you calling CPS. I hope things work out best for all involved.

[abbeyej]

This wasn't guess-work. If you *witnessed* *abuse*, you should call.

[Daisy]

I would have called. I think you did the right thing.

[Dobela]

I think most, of not all, of us have at one time or another lost our cool and yelled at a child. I know I have anyway. However, if I was yelling at my child in a public place and someone actually knocked on the door I would be mortified! I would be so ashamed and embarassed to think that someone actually heard me lose control. No way would I have continued to yell and behave that way. I would have composed myself and opened the door. I would not continue to yell and tell you to go away.

 

When you say that the woman not only didn't stop when she was in a position to know someone was hearing her (you were actually pounding on a door), but she continued to yell and berate the child - that is abuse. That gives me the impression of entitlement or arrogance. :glare: It is this description of her behavior that makes me believe that this is just not a one time occurance. The reaction of her daughter makes me think it is not a one time occurance.

 

If the child was so upset that her teacher had to pull her aside and talk to her, and she suspects something, she is a mandated reporter. Even if you didn't report it, she is required by law to do so.

[NanceXToo]

How awful!! I definitely think you did the right thing by calling!! And if you don't hear back by the end of the week, I'd call again DURING office hours!

[Harriet Vane]

 

Before I reported child abuse, I would make sure this is an ongoing issue and not something out of the ordinary. I think about things like, what if the mom is going through a divorce, she has an elderly parent who just died, or something else that has her completely not thinking right. If that is the case, this may be something that is not normal for her and something that, if someone would just reach out to her, could be stopped.

 

 

 

I have to say that many, many people think they can investigate a situation a little on their own, or get to know the suspected abuser, or in some way finesse the situation along. This is unwise. Most people cannot investigate effectively through being friendly with someone, and will draw the whole thing out faaaar too long agonizing over whether or not they have proof enough to make that call.

 

In this case, I would call. No question about it.

 

I would also KEEP CALLING until I spoke with a live person rather than waiting days for a call back. The system is not efficient--you need to be persistent.

[Laurie4b]

If the children aren't really being abused, it isn't going to hurt to have CPS knock on the door. If they are, then the services the family can be offered may turn things around for this family. Of course, there are a number of bad outcomes (kids don't get help they need or CPS using a jackhammer when a screwdriver would have worked); but that isn't our responsibility. At this point, the children (both this sibling group and possibly this woman's classes) have been given a voice by you calling CPS. I hope things work out best for all involved.

 

While in this case, there is enough evidence to call, it is just not true that if the children aren't being abused, it isn't going to hurt to have CPS come to the door. Sometimes CPS workers are very reasonable and it would be fine. Too much of the time, there is a period of sheer terror where a worker holds the threat of taking the children out of the home over the head of a parent because of the worker's own issues. Sometimes, a child is even ripped from a home where no abuse occurred. Did you know that kids are more likely to be abused in foster care then in they were in their bio homes? (I was a foster parent, so absolutely no insult to the dedicated foster parents on this board; however, not all foster parents are created alike.) Calling CPS is not a benign intervention: however much it should be, in many areas, it is not. In many locations, it's a matter of figuring out the worse of two evils. And yes, I think that is as much the responsibility of the reporter as it is of the system. The CPS/foster care system is in desperate need of reform. It *is* our responsibility to advocate for reform in the system, not to report and then shrug at any ill consequences that come to a child through a broken system we invited into their lives.

[TechWife]

Before I reported child abuse, I would make sure this is an ongoing issue and not something out of the ordinary. I think about things like, what if the mom is going through a divorce, she has an elderly parent who just died, or something else that has her completely not thinking right. If that is the case, this may be something that is not normal for her and something that, if someone would just reach out to her, could be stopped.

 

I think that this is the role of the authorities, not the OP. It could be dangerous for the OP and the kids for her to try to figure this out.

[simka2]

I think that this is the role of the authorities, not the OP. It could be dangerous for the OP and the kids for her to try to figure this out.

 

 

I agree. I have been on both ends of this...and it is really worth getting the professionals involved. It is horrible no matter what.

[Mejane]

Choking one's child is not a normal reaction to life stressors. Most people who are momentarily out of control will snap to when someone intervenes. The fact that she didn't quit when you pounded on the door shows that she has lost control. It's not overly dramatic to say you may have saved a child's life by calling. I'd follow up to make sure some action is taken.

[JenC3]

The teacher is calling in the morning to give the pertinent info on the family. I hope the other mom calls in to add to the report. They will call me if it becomes a case. I keep going over it to make sure I'm not overreacting and there just no way to explain her behavior. the teacher is glad I called as well.

 

I'm just praying for them.

[jujsky]

At this point, I would let the teacher handle it. She heard your version of events and she talked to the girl. In most places teachers are required by law to report suspected abuse. By talking to all the parents who witnessed it, she is probably getting all of her ducks in a row before she reports it herself. You could also outright ask the teacher if she intends to report it.

[JenC3]

The teacher actually wanted me to report it since I witnessed the actual abuse. She is calling to give over info on the mother, name, etc. She is corroborating the emotional state of the child though.

 

I need a glass of wine. It's been quite an evening:(

[Denisemomof4]

that is SO disturbing. Just READING it upset my stomach.

 

I"m so glad the teacher is acting on this. One of you need to make sure someone is called.

 

I'm terrified for those children. What do you think happened when they got home? I shudder to think of it.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I just want it known that I was responding to the information in the OP and that I do not advocate calling CPS willy nillly. I had CPS called on me when my dd was 13mo, have been a preschool teacher with a CPS involved situation, and have fostered. I generally have a great deal of respect for CPS in the capacities I've been involved with them. However, I have seen first hand situations where they've left children in bad situations and when they've over-reacted (more of the former than the latter). My opinion in this thread was related to this situation where the abuse was heard and the child mentioned the abuse. In this situation, I hope nothing bad happens (no response or over-reaction), but that the family gets appropriate services for their needs and the children's voices are heard.

 

Anyway, just wanted to clarify. I *have* called CPS, but I would never advocate calling for any reason not legally considered significant abuse/neglect or "just to be on the safe side."

[cjbeach]

Choking one's child is not a normal reaction to life stressors. Most people who are momentarily out of control will snap to when someone intervenes. The fact that she didn't quit when you pounded on the door shows that she has lost control. It's not overly dramatic to say you may have saved a child's life by calling. I'd follow up to make sure some action is taken.

:iagree:

People have been on both sides of the fence here. I just wouldn't want to make a mistake either way but since it had gone this far in a studio... what must it be like at home for these children? I'd have to make the call. And hopefully others do as well.

[Mosaicmind]

I WAS that child in the bathroom and no one did a **** thing about it. You are right to call and I would say that since you were the one to witness it you need to be the one to report it. Don't just assume the teacher will do an adequate job on your behalf. If someone had just called once for me, I may not have created other personalities to take the abuse for me. Think of the hurt and pain that you could be stopping for these kids by calling.

 

I have also been wrongly accused by CPS of abusing my kids so I know what that's like also. It wasn't handled perfectly but we were completely found innocent of anything and apologized to by CPS.

 

I would never hesitate to report and I have had to report several people.

[GWOB]

As a victim of physical abuse, please follow through on this. Everyone in my family knew what was happening to me. No one helped me. Please help these kids.

[MyBlueLobsters]

As a victim of physical abuse, please follow through on this. Everyone in my family knew what was happening to me. No one helped me. Please help these kids.

 

:crying: :grouphug:

[MyBlueLobsters]

I WAS that child in the bathroom and no one did a **** thing about it. You are right to call and I would say that since you were the one to witness it you need to be the one to report it. Don't just assume the teacher will do an adequate job on your behalf. If someone had just called once for me, I may not have created other personalities to take the abuse for me. Think of the hurt and pain that you could be stopping for these kids by calling.

 

I have also been wrongly accused by CPS of abusing my kids so I know what that's like also. It wasn't handled perfectly but we were completely found innocent of anything and apologized to by CPS.

 

I would never hesitate to report and I have had to report several people.

 

:grouphug::grouphug: :sad:

[RanchGirl]

I'm glad you called, I think you did the right thing. And as previous posters have mentioned, I don't take calling CPS lightly or advocate it "just in case" -- or when someone doesn't like someone's educational methods. CPS can do more damage than good a lot of the time. But when you witness physical abuse, you must call. I hope that CPS is able to help those children.

 

I am wondering, did you consider calling the police at the time? Would you have if it went on longer? I am not sure what I would do in that situation but it seems like if you are seeing someone assault another person and you can't stop it yourself, maybe the police should be called?

[Pamela H in Texas]

it seems like if you are seeing someone assault another person and you can't stop it yourself, maybe the police should be called?

 

This is ideal. The people involved would all be in the same place, many people could be interviewed, evidence is more likely immediately, etc. I'm not sure why we are so hesitant to do it. But we, as a country, seem to be so.

Edited September 29, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[mom2denj]

YES! I think you did the right thing! The more reports they get, the quicker they will look into the family. That poor baby girl! It must have been so hard for the teacher to let her leave with the mom. :sad:

[mom2denj]

:iagree:

This is ideal. The people involved would all be in the same place, many people could be interviewed, evidence is more likely immediately, etc. I'm not sure why we are so hesitant to do it. But we, as a country, seem to be so.

[Nestof3]

Sometimes the parents need a very strong wake up call.

 

:iagree: I think these things can indeed be a good wakeup call for the parents to seek help. I don't think most parents want to be like this when they are, and I do believe there is help out there. The mother needs to see a physician to rule out depression (it is real and medicine can really help) and a psychologist to help with other issues.

[lionfamily1999]

I WAS that child in the bathroom and no one did a **** thing about it. You are right to call and I would say that since you were the one to witness it you need to be the one to report it. Don't just assume the teacher will do an adequate job on your behalf. If someone had just called once for me, I may not have created other personalities to take the abuse for me. Think of the hurt and pain that you could be stopping for these kids by calling.

 

I have also been wrongly accused by CPS of abusing my kids so I know what that's like also. It wasn't handled perfectly but we were completely found innocent of anything and apologized to by CPS.

 

I would never hesitate to report and I have had to report several people.

:grouphug:

One thing. I've been working my butt off to get a girl removed from a terrible situation for almost two years now. Two years of reporting what all the mandatory reporters in her life don't seem to notice (I'm thinking they're all deaf/blind/mutes at the school she attends). I haven't told her, God knows if she let slip...... I don't even want to think about the possible repercussions.

 

It's very possible that people called, just not the "right" people.

 

:grouphug:

[Pamela H in Texas]

I've been working my butt off to get a girl removed from a terrible situation for almost two years now.

 

It could be that you're not the only one. I told my story of guilt in a recent thread. Anyway, I had talked to the sister of the woman involved. She and other family members had talked to CPS multiple times. I called and spoke to the worker myself to no avail. The woman told me that every time CPS came, the house and kids were clean, the refrigerator stocked, etc. There was nothing they could do. It was terribly upsetting. Just because the fridge is stocked doesn't mean those kids are getting any! CPS was involved from the time the oldest was an infant. They FINALLY took custody of the kids the night I allowed the mother to take the kids home and the aunt witnessed severe abuse (baby thrown against wall, toddler locked in closet, etc). Thankfully, we got two of the three kids back (a family member took the baby but didn't want the two other kids who were both under 2.5 years old <sigh>).

 

Sometimes it takes SO much to take children that need to be removed and not enough to take children who shouldn't be removed. It's really a failed system. But it's what kids have as a voice for now....

[Dobela]

 

I am wondering, did you consider calling the police at the time? Would you have if it went on longer? I am not sure what I would do in that situation but it seems like if you are seeing someone assault another person and you can't stop it yourself, maybe the police should be called?

Unfortunately in our area the police will just tell you to call CPS. I don't know what other areas are like.

 

 

I know many people don't like CPS. As a foster parent I really understand why. As somsone who had false allegations filed against her, I understand why. I have seen some situations that should have never happened and some social workers with awful agendas. But I have also seen many children whose lives were made better, some whose lives were changed and saved. Yes, there are some questionable foster parents out there but here are also many good, loving homes and foster families waiting to help children heal.

[abbeyej]

Choking one's child is not a normal reaction to life stressors.

 

I agree completely. And at the point that someone is choking a child in a public place, it doesn't even matter what the stressors are or how difficult the adult's life is. It might be a heartbreaking situation, but the parent is obviously unable to cope with those stressors and the child needs to be protected.

 

I, too, would be extremely hesitant to call CPS under other, more ambiguous circumstances. But in this case?!? Not at all.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I agree completely. And at the point that someone is choking a child in a public place, it doesn't even matter what the stressors are or how difficult the adult's life is.

 

Be careful, though, the choking is hearsay. No one saw it. Someone heard the girl mention it to the brother. The girl didn't tell anyone in charge. It's pure hearsay from a legal point of view.

 

The only things that were witnessed were the yelling, and the state of the girl afterwards. CPS cannot use the choking as legal evidence. It's pretty thin.

 

That said, I'm all for calling it in. It's up to CPS to choose to act, and how to act. If the choking did indeed happen, something has to be done (and I wouldn't be surprised that it did happen). I support the OP in calling CPS, but don't hold much hope.

[lionfamily1999]

It could be that you're not the only one. I told my story of guilt in a recent thread. Anyway, I had talked to the sister of the woman involved. She and other family members had talked to CPS multiple times. I called and spoke to the worker myself to no avail. The woman told me that every time CPS came, the house and kids were clean, the refrigerator stocked, etc. There was nothing they could do. It was terribly upsetting. Just because the fridge is stocked doesn't mean those kids are getting any! CPS was involved from the time the oldest was an infant. They FINALLY took custody of the kids the night I allowed the mother to take the kids home and the aunt witnessed severe abuse (baby thrown against wall, toddler locked in closet, etc). Thankfully, we got two of the three kids back (a family member took the baby but didn't want the two other kids who were both under 2.5 years old <sigh>).

 

Sometimes it takes SO much to take children that need to be removed and not enough to take children who shouldn't be removed. It's really a failed system. But it's what kids have as a voice for now....

:iagree:

[DawnM]

Well, I am a teacher and counselor who is just currently not working, but I am still a mandated state reporter. I would report it immediately! And if the ballet teacher calls AND you call and if any of the others call, it will be taken more seriously! Think about it though....the ballet teacher is getting 3rd hand information that she is reporting. SHe probably won't sound nearly as upset as you will when calling. The more reporting the better and she could be in danger of losing her teaching credential, which might be a VERY good thing at this point.

 

Dawn

[DawnM]

As for the police, if you call and say, "someone is being CHOKED" they will respond, even if it is eventually turned over to CPS.

 

I called once when I was in Seattle. There was a construction site and one of the workers was choking the other. I called and the police came immediately. The guy actually could have died. He ended up in the hospital for quite a while and his lawyer called me for a statement and to tell me that the guy was very thankful I stepped in.

 

Dawn

[Pink Fairy]

Just curious, but is a ballet teacher a mandated reporter in the same way that a school teacher or doctor is? I think it's good that you called, and I hope the other mom calls as well. Like others have said, it's harder to dismiss it as one mom's word against another if there are several witnesses.

[Miss Sherry]

One of the things that really bothers me about this type of situation(not the choking, but children in need in general) is that, unless this is an ongoing issue, and not something out of the ordinary for this family, is that if this child or children did happen to get removed from this family due to being reported - which could happen whether it is justified or not - is that they could end up in an even worse situation than they are already in. I do not believe that Children Services is some kind of panacea of wonderful help for children in need. Children are abused in some of the homes they are placed in by Children Services. It can be horrific to be in that system. That system is not all about doing what's best for the children. I really think Children Services is only appropriate in very dire circumstances -for example, the childrens lives are known to be in danger, sexual abuse is involved, etc. because if that is not the case where they are at it very well will be for some of the children put in their care.

All I will say is my Mom worked for Children Services for many years.

 

As has already been pointed out, sometimes Children Services does not do enough, and children suffer, and sometimes they put their nose in where it doesn't belong and wreak all kinds of havoc for families.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Miss Sherry

[Miss Sherry]

If I were in a situation and thought a child was being choked I wouldn't be thinking about calling CPS, I would call the police to come and find out what is really going on. You really don't know, it sounds like, if the child was being choked or not. Someone should have called the police to come and investigate immediately.

[Harriet Vane]

One of the things that really bothers me about this type of situation(not the choking, but children in need in general) is that, unless this is an ongoing issue, and not something out of the ordinary for this family, is that if this child or children did happen to get removed from this family due to being reported - which could happen whether it is justified or not - is that they could end up in an even worse situation than they are already in. I do not believe that Children Services is some kind of panacea of wonderful help for children in need. Children are abused in some of the homes they are placed in by Children Services. It can be horrific to be in that system. That system is not all about doing what's best for the children. I really think Children Services is only appropriate in very dire circumstances -for example, the childrens lives are known to be in danger, sexual abuse is involved, etc. because if that is not the case where they are at it very well will be for some of the children put in their care.

All I will say is my Mom worked for Children Services for many years.

 

As has already been pointed out, sometimes Children Services does not do enough, and children suffer, and sometimes they put their nose in where it doesn't belong and wreak all kinds of havoc for families.

 

I would say that being beaten and choked publicly indicates a dire circumstance.