Unschoolers on Good Morning America!

[Tangerine]

The ONLY good thing about the piece was that the GMA "reporters" admitted their bias. If you're going to talk about unschooling, why not include at least one success case, such as the Colfax family whose children were accepted to Harvard?

 

I don't find stories like that all that helpful either. I realize, for the story's sake, they're going to pick really interesting or unusual families. But I don't think one isolated incredibly successful family is any more helpful than one sword-fighting video-gaming or donut-on-the-stairs-no-teeth-brushing family. Maybe some cross sections? I'd like to see some regular kids who got really interested in a subject, and pursued it to a career.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I watched it and am horrified by it. This is what gives home schoolers a bad reputation as just playing hooky.

I contacted GMA and complained that it was biased and not a true representation of home schoolers. Please some others contact them. The only way for them to really give a true representation is if we complain. I filed it as a complaint. You only get 500 characters though. I worded about 5-6 sentences with my main issues.

http://abcnews.go.com/Site/page?id=3271346&cat=Good%20Morning%20America

 

I really think we need to speak up and question their horrid reporting and biased journalism.

 

 

:cursing:You better believe I just submitted a complaint! They ruffled THIS mama bears feathers :rant:

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Wow. Could we be a little more biased? Could we choose a more extreme example? I particularly liked the mom asking the little child, "Are we going to brush our teeth tonight?" What? That was absolutely painful to watch.

 

 

 

:iagree: :cursing:

[LizzyBee]

I don't find stories like that all that helpful either. I realize, for the story's sake, they're going to pick really interesting or unusual families. But I don't think one isolated incredibly successful family is any more helpful than one sword-fighting video-gaming or donut-on-the-stairs-no-teeth-brushing family. Maybe some cross sections? I'd like to see some regular kids who got really interested in a subject, and pursued it to a career.

 

But it would at least add some balance if they're going to do the story. Finding a couple of families in the middle rather than the extremes would be the best balance, but presenting only one extreme was just irresponsible.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

THIS is going to come back and bite all homeschoolers in the booty. I know some unschoolers who take their type of schooling very seriously. They use unschooling to expose their kids to all sorts of different ideas and things. They have some of the most well spoken, well read kids I have ever met. I am kinda hoping this family was a misportrayed, but I don't know.

 

I saw it. I didn't care for the family. They didn't seem to be getting any education at all. They showed them playing video games and play sword fighting. They looked a little silly. They didn't seem to have a way that they were preparing for life...whether that be college or learning job skills. The parents said the kids had no rules. We're a society that runs on rules. I think children need to be able to live with rules. Not all rules are bad.

 

I saw nothing of value coming from this segment other than people might demand more regulations on homeschoolers. They did state that unschoolers were only a very small part of the homeschooling population.

 

I agree that I would like to see GMA do more segments on other types of homeschoolers.

 

Wow. Could we be a little more biased? Could we choose a more extreme example? I particularly liked the mom asking the little child, "Are we going to brush our teeth tonight?" What? That was absolutely painful to watch.

 

That's not unschooling, that's "un-parenting.":glare:

 

 

 

:iagree: The family was portrayed as complete oafs, and IF that is how they truly are, they can not be considered home schoolers. If that is not truly how how they are, they better be raising a HUGE stink about how that was aired! It seems they may have edited out any learning they may do however. I sure hope that was the case!

 

I am wondering what will happen on the rights of homeschoolers as that war aired. Tougher laws? More testing/reporting/proving what we are doing?

 

And for the record, there are 2 (that I know of) that unschools, but those kids learn SO MUCH! They are ALWAYS on field trips learning about botany, or geology, or all kinds of stuff! Those kids test WELL above (as most homeschoolers do) in any tests given. Our state does not require testing, but alot do (us included) private testing just to have proof incase anything ever happens.

Edited April 19, 2010 by wy_kid_wrangler04

[stripe]

I found it unfortunate that someone made this comment:

 

Personally, I am truly enjoying the comments posted here. I really enjoy the grammar, spelling, and usage errors that the vast majority of home schooling parents are displaying. Way to show us poorly-educated Americans who went through the public education system that your methods are better than our broken system.

 

....unfortunate because it's often the case. Not that this has anything to do with unschooling exactly, but we homeschooling parents can't really assert how fantastically educational everything is when we can't even articulate our own thoughts, or spell them correctly.

[teamturner]

Wow. Could we be a little more biased? Could we choose a more extreme example? I particularly liked the mom asking the little child, "Are we going to brush our teeth tonight?" What? That was absolutely painful to watch.

 

That's what I thought also!! Do the dc get to decide if they want to go to the dentist for a cleaning and check for cavities?? :001_huh:

[teamturner]

I found it unfortunate that someone made this comment:

 

 

 

....unfortunate because it's often the case. Not that this has anything to do with unschooling exactly, but we homeschooling parents can't really assert how fantastically educational everything is when we can't even articulate our own thoughts, or spell them correctly.

 

:iagree: I see this happen all the time when homeschoolers post comments to articles. Proof read, people! Although, it's an unfair judgment since most people that post anything online cannot do it w/o spelling or grammar errors. However, since we are often on the defensive, we need to not give anyone any ammunition to use against us.

[jenL]

I have been thinking about this story most of the day. It was terrible reporting, and I turned the TV off immediately because I was disgusted. It irks me that such a minute section of the homeschooling population is being displayed. Time needs to be taken to show what the MAJORITY of homeschoolers are doing, so that parents who feel exasperated with the schools, etc can see there is a solid, viable alternative for them. I know this is probably an unreasonable thought, but it is a wish nonetheless.

[chiguirre]

I do not unparent, but our family:

- has no family rules, we have family courtesies

- eats what and when we want

- sleeps when we want

- plays video games when we want

- has no restrictions on games played, i.e. I have no problem with rated 'M' games

- have never had regular bath times

- didn't always brush their teeth and they don't have cavities unlike me who was forced to brush my teeth and my mouth is full of cavaties

- have no assigned chores

 

 

That's the way my parents raised me, and, except for no video games, the way we parent our kids. I didn't really think that was radical.

[Red]

Honestly I am not surprised that ABC would choose a family like this. In my opinion it has become very clear to me that they have a strong bias against homeschooling. Supernanny has only shown cases of extreme homeschooling. Wife Swap had cases of extreme unschooling families. This is the only type of homeschooling family I have ever viewed on this station. I think it is sad. Most of the families I know are nothing like the extreme families shown. Most value and have high standards in education. Such a shame the news media doesn't have that standard.

[LibraryLover]

That's the way my parents raised me, and, except for no video games, the way we parent our kids. I didn't really think that was radical.

 

We're similar, and well, we just don't have any behavoir issues with our kids.

Edited April 19, 2010 by LibraryLover

[woolybear]

Well, I have a lot of thoughts on this, but one thing I was thinking about. I suddenly remembered a few weeks back there was an article in the Associated Press about religion in science curriculums (??OKay, I think that was it. Now I forget.:D) At any rate, in that piece it was suggested that the majority of homeschoolers are hsing for religious reasons.

 

Interesting to think about...actually pretty funny.....so basically we're all religious zealots (the articles perspective, not mine) or we are radical unschoolers......

 

Not me.:)

 

There really should be a more accurate overall portrayal of the range of homeschooling.

 

Woolybear

[Dandelion]

One of the best things I learned from hanging out with unschoolers is that if something made me automatically defensive, it meant I needed to examine it more closely. I don't feel so defensive about choices and beliefs that bring me peace and are beneficial in my life. Learning to say Yes more has been a very enlightening experience.

 

:iagree:

 

I have learned the above (and more) from some of my unschooling friends. They do take a more relaxed approach to life, and that's something that can be very positive. It's unfortunate that the families in the video were portrayed the way they were (I think it's very possible that some things were "lost" in the course of editing that made everything look much more "extreme" - because shock value gets ratings).

[Pamela H in Texas]

Regarding discipline...

 

There is no one on earth who *really* does not discipline at all. Discipline means to teach and to guide. There is NO way that you have young children in your home and do NOT do it in some way or another, well or poorly. If you have spent 5 minutes engaging with a young child, you have done something in the way of teaching.

 

I didn't see anything wrong with the people claiming they had no rules. I don't believe it. I think most people FOCUS so much on "these rules" that by some standards it seems they don't have any, but seriously, EVERYONE has rules with how they are with other people, whether they call them that or not.

 

For example, in our family, we respect our God, each other, ourselves, and property. That really isn't a rule by most people's standards. It most certainly is a standard for living in this house though. And we HAD to discipline to encourage it. We discussed the issue of letting people know if your plans change (having supper with people you're out in the volunteer work, for example) so we don't worry. Again, simple teaching is still discipline though it's obviously not lecturing, yelling, or hitting.

 

But there was a bit more for young children. I have outlined my staying out of the street thing before. We set the boundary, we practiced the boundary, we made it fun. But if you crossed the boundary, you had a stricter boundary. There is NO way that I wouldn't tell a kid to stay out of a road people regularly travel 50mph down and there is NO way I wouldn't make sure they didn't make it there.

 

But I think that starting off strict allowed my kids MORE freedom also. And I think it allowed them to take advantage of "being a kid" as well as following passions and having lives at this point. I feel for people who overly control their 2 yr olds and end up having to do so with their 12yr olds and can't figure out why they still have to do it to their 17yos. But I also feel for the people who have out of control kids because they refused to put in good boundaries and teach their kids along the way so the kids could take over one step at a time at 2, and 5, and 12 and 15.

 

But parenting is pretty individual. And for the vast majority of people, it turns out okay.

 

My concern with the family was that the children really SEEMED to have no direction at all. I'd be sad if the best my kids could come up with in life was video games and watching tv. If that were teh case, I'd be thinking, "maybe I should have shown them how full life could be." That doesn't have to mean forcing it down their throats, just gentle exposure by living life myself and as a family.

[TXMary2]

I saw it. I didn't care for the family. They didn't seem to be getting any education at all. They showed them playing video games and play sword fighting. They looked a little silly. They didn't seem to have a way that they were preparing for life...whether that be college or learning job skills. The parents said the kids had no rules. We're a society that runs on rules. I think children need to be able to live with rules. Not all rules are bad.

 

I saw nothing of value coming from this segment other than people might demand more regulations on homeschoolers. They did state that unschoolers were only a very small part of the homeschooling population.

 

I agree that I would like to see GMA do more segments on other types of homeschoolers.

 

Let's remember this IS the media. Because I distrust the media so much I am taking this story as portrayed with a grain of salt. They probably had other footage, but chose not to use it. I am not an unschooler, nor a really big fan of unschooling, but there was a brief mention of plants they were growing so they must be doing something other than video games and tv. I personally don't want to see ABC do any homeschooling stories because basically I don't expect them to be fair or accurate.

[Aubrey]

I let ds9 watch it w/ me. His face was popping w/ joy by the end: "That looks FUN!"

 

Really? What would you do right *now* if you could make your own choices?

 

"I'd go do the crayon game [Crayon Physics] & make my invention!"

 

So now? He's on the other computer, typing up "A Perfect Day"--everything he would choose from when to get up to what he would eat/do.

 

Oops. Did I accidentally assign extra writing just then? :lol:

[happi duck]

I live in an "easy", no notification state. We are considered a private school and a private school is defined as providing instruction in the same areas as the local public school. So even though no one oversees my choices, I look at what subjects my local school covers and I decide the best way for my kids to cover those same subjects. (4 years of high school English, world history, US History, 3 science, 3 math etc etc.) I might choose texts but I might not. I feel like this is the spirit of our designation as a private school.

 

The only unschooling family I've ever known was not at all like the family on GMA. The parents I know had this fabulous way of tuning into their kids and allowing them freedom while still covering the same variety of subjects you'd expect from a private school.

 

On GMA they said the parents featured were within the law but that seems impossible if even an "easy" state expects all the subjects to be covered.

 

Why did they agree to be on national television?

[Jenny in GA]

I am coming into this late, but having spent several years in the unschool community, yes, that is exactly what the unschoolers who run the unschooling lists and forums and speak at unschooling conferences and write unschooling books are like.

 

Exactly. Verbatim.

 

Jenny

[misidawnrn]

I watched just a snippet of it on Yahoo and the main family with the teenagers was to me appalling! :thumbdown: I am not that familiar with "unschooling" per say but I do think that lessons need to be taught. It basically portrayed those kids as video game/tv junkies that learned how to be Jedi warriors. To think that those kids are our future is scary!

 

They only showed a little bit of the family with the younger kids that go to the farm and the one little girl knows how much money she had with her. I can see that family doing much more "educationally' with their children. Those kids were learning life lessons.

 

I didn't agree with the parents that there wasn't a heirarchy in the family and everyone was equals but that is just me. I will not let my child eat a donut on the stairs but more power to them. My kids will brush their teeth and go to bed when I say because I am the mom and that is that.

 

Like I said...I don't know much about "unschooling" but I would hope that "unschooling" children learn math, how to read, write, while learning about life and what interests them. It isn't for us but that is just us.

[Caraway]

It drives me crazy when someone says they are "unschooling that topic" or "unschooling on Fridays". Unschooling is something done across the board, for everything. To teach some topics and "unschool" others goes against the entire idea of unschooling. Unschooling, as demonstrated and described by the unschooling community, views all topics as equally valid. One cannot teach some subjects and not others because this leads to the belief that some topics are more important. Unschooling is a child centered, relaxed approach to all subjects at all times. If a child seeks out a text book on math and asks for lessons this is fine because it *comes from the child*. The lessons cannot be suggested or mandated from the parents. The closest thing is "strewing" in which parents put interesting materials around the house in the hope that they will spark an interest in their children.

 

Radical unschooling extends the scope to behavior and family life.

 

At its best unschooling is a very powerful idea. In many ways John Holt (and Sandra Dodd) express wonderful ideas about the role of education and what it means to be an educated person.

 

However, even people like Dodd tell stories about how when their child decided to take a college math class they didn't know the symbols used in basic math. I am not an easy going enough person to send my child into a college classroom while I yell "Oh yeah, division can be written with one number over the other!"

 

I attend a large local homeschooling conference that is OVERWHELMING almost all unschoolers. In some ways the unschooling kids are wonderful. The teenagers hug their mothers in the hallways, they open doors and help without being asked, they function well in multi-age settings, they have a wide range of interests.

 

However they also seem to specialize in mohawks and chains, they talk a lot about video games and TV, they hang all over each other all the time. They (and their parents) talk about how they stay up all night playing video games and sleep all day.

 

In the weeks leading up to the conference there are constant reminders that shoes must be worn on the hotel grounds because it is state law. Don't swim in the pond. If you try to fix oatmeal in the hotel coffee maker please clean it up yourself. Last year I saw multiple people peeing in bushes. :001_huh:

 

For years I have attended this conference with my mother who is the Assistant Superintendent (in charge of instruction) in a district with over 18,000 kids. For years I have tried to explain to her that this conference didn't represent what I wanted for my kids. This year I took her to the Midwest homeschooling conference. I am pretty sure I heard an audible sigh of relief. :lol:

 

I would say that in my city 60% of the homeschoolers are unschoolers, many of them very radically. The GMA video was an accurate depiction of those families.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Caraway

[lakotajm]

Media sells to the public, this isn't journalism, it's agreeing with the majority and broadcasting programs that make the majority of the country feel good (or bad depending on what their goals are to sell airtime.)

 

Please don't confuse this stuff with real journalism, folks.

 

Kim

 

I am currently reading Brave New World and (if you're familiar w/it) this is what the mainstream media has become-a somer pill for the masses, to ensure our perpetual happiness and solidarity of mush-brainness. You could try alternatives like NPR (that and The Week magazaine are my only sources for news-I don't do tv), but sometimes their liberal "slip" shows.

 

Recently a "reporter" on NPR essentially portrayed every person who disagrees with the notion of homosexual marriage as knuckle-dragging KuKluxKlan throwbacks, with an air of incredulity as if stunned to know such persons exist and are allowed to breathe.

 

So, grain of salt...soon enough, maybe all the idiots will die from their constant engorgement and stupification. One can only hope.

 

Lakota

[angela in ohio]

Just as you don't turn on the news to see footage of people who didn't crash their vehicles or people who weren't murdered during the night or houses that didn't burn down, you will not turn on the news to see them doing a piece on what the average homeschooler is. The media reports news. I am just as anti-mainstream-media as the next guy, but I can see why they picked this family. They picked this family BECAUSE the stereotypical homeschooler is the spelling-bee-winning, graduating-at-12, articulate child. It's news because this family is different. It is news because it is a growing segment of homeschooling, as families begin to homeschool for many different reasons.

 

We have had this discussion on the board before: if you go on unschooling sites, this is exactly what they advocate, and those who aren't unschooling like this are shouted down. This IS the image of unschooling that the unschooling movement wants portrayed.

 

I don't believe 10-15% of the homeschooling population is purposefully radical unschooling, though I bet if you read some of the radical unschooling websites, they might claim it, which is probably where GMA got the number. Maybe all very relaxed and unschooling homeschoolers added together might be 15%.

[angela in ohio]

It drives me crazy when someone says they are "unschooling that topic" or "unschooling on Fridays". Unschooling is something done across the board, for everything. To teach some topics and "unschool" others goes against the entire idea of unschooling. Unschooling, as demonstrated and described by the unschooling community, views all topics as equally valid. One cannot teach some subjects and not others because this leads to the belief that some topics are more important. Unschooling is a child centered, relaxed approach to all subjects at all times. If a child seeks out a text book on math and asks for lessons this is fine because it *comes from the child*. The lessons cannot be suggested or mandated from the parents. The closest thing is "strewing" in which parents put interesting materials around the house in the hope that they will spark an interest in their children.

 

Radical unschooling extends the scope to behavior and family life.

 

At its best unschooling is a very powerful idea. In many ways John Holt (and Sandra Dodd) express wonderful ideas about the role of education and what it means to be an educated person.

 

However, even people like Dodd tell stories about how when their child decided to take a college math class they didn't know the symbols used in basic math. I am not an easy going enough person to send my child into a college classroom while I yell "Oh yeah, division can be written with one number over the other!"

 

I attend a large local homeschooling conference that is OVERWHELMING almost all unschoolers. In some ways the unschooling kids are wonderful. The teenagers hug their mothers in the hallways, they open doors and help without being asked, they function well in multi-age settings, they have a wide range of interests.

 

However they also seem to specialize in mohawks and chains, they talk a lot about video games and TV, they hang all over each other all the time. They (and their parents) talk about how they stay up all night playing video games and sleep all day.

 

In the weeks leading up to the conference there are constant reminders that shoes must be worn on the hotel grounds because it is state law. Don't swim in the pond. If you try to fix oatmeal in the hotel coffee maker please clean it up yourself. Last year I saw multiple people peeing in bushes. :001_huh:

 

For years I have attended this conference with my mother who is the Assistant Superintendent (in charge of instruction) in a district with over 18,000 kids. For years I have tried to explain to her that this conference didn't represent what I wanted for my kids. This year I took her to the Midwest homeschooling conference. I am pretty sure I heard an audible sigh of relief. :lol:

 

I would say that in my city 60% of the homeschoolers are unschoolers, many of them very radically. The GMA video was an accurate depiction of those families.

 

Excellent post.

[Saille]

What GMA actually said was that 10-15% of homeschoolers are unschoolers. If you looked at the chart, within the 10% segment was a much smaller slice, presumably the percentage of radical unschoolers. However, they never stated a percentage for radical unschoolers, even though the segment was specifically about that population. That's actually the only thing that struck me as openly irresponsible. They allowed the casual watcher to pick up the implication that 10-15% of homeschoolers radically unschool, though GMA clearly understood that this is not the case.

[Merry]

Fridays" would be what? Terms like "exposing the child to the topic" or "strewing interesting topics on Fridays"? What do you think?

 

 

It drives me crazy when someone says they are "unschooling that topic" or "unschooling on Fridays". Unschooling is something done across the board, for everything. To teach some topics and "unschool" others goes against the entire idea of unschooling. Unschooling, as demonstrated and described by the unschooling community, views all topics as equally valid. One cannot teach some subjects and not others because this leads to the belief that some topics are more important. Unschooling is a child centered, relaxed approach to all subjects at all times. If a child seeks out a text book on math and asks for lessons this is fine because it *comes from the child*. The lessons cannot be suggested or mandated from the parents. The closest thing is "strewing" in which parents put interesting materials around the house in the hope that they will spark an interest in their children.

 

Radical unschooling extends the scope to behavior and family life.

 

At its best unschooling is a very powerful idea. In many ways John Holt (and Sandra Dodd) express wonderful ideas about the role of education and what it means to be an educated person.

 

However, even people like Dodd tell stories about how when their child decided to take a college math class they didn't know the symbols used in basic math. I am not an easy going enough person to send my child into a college classroom while I yell "Oh yeah, division can be written with one number over the other!"

 

I attend a large local homeschooling conference that is OVERWHELMING almost all unschoolers. In some ways the unschooling kids are wonderful. The teenagers hug their mothers in the hallways, they open doors and help without being asked, they function well in multi-age settings, they have a wide range of interests.

 

However they also seem to specialize in mohawks and chains, they talk a lot about video games and TV, they hang all over each other all the time. They (and their parents) talk about how they stay up all night playing video games and sleep all day.

 

In the weeks leading up to the conference there are constant reminders that shoes must be worn on the hotel grounds because it is state law. Don't swim in the pond. If you try to fix oatmeal in the hotel coffee maker please clean it up yourself. Last year I saw multiple people peeing in bushes. :001_huh:

 

For years I have attended this conference with my mother who is the Assistant Superintendent (in charge of instruction) in a district with over 18,000 kids. For years I have tried to explain to her that this conference didn't represent what I wanted for my kids. This year I took her to the Midwest homeschooling conference. I am pretty sure I heard an audible sigh of relief. :lol:

 

I would say that in my city 60% of the homeschoolers are unschoolers, many of them very radically. The GMA video was an accurate depiction of those families.

[angela in ohio]

Fridays" would be what? Terms like "exposing the child to the topic" or "strewing interesting topics on Fridays"? What do you think?

 

informal study

delight-directed learning

self-motivated study

independent projects

reading alone

relaxed schedule days

independent unit study

hobby

[Hedgehogs4]

Did anyone see this today? What did you think? I was a little ticked at how the media staff portrayed HS. If you saw this is this how unschoolers typically school?

 

i think there was a LOT lost in editing...The one kid was showing the woman a plant project he was working on and they literally cut him off, like "yeah, yeah, so you're growing some plants..." I have a feeling they asked the mom, "do they ever watch tv or play video games? and the mom answered, "they might watch tv or play video games..." / cut video but you didn't hear the rest of her answer. I AM VERY SUSPICIOUS OF THIS REPORT, and the condescending manner in which she said, "I think there are some very well-meaning parents out there..." just ticked me off. you could finish her thought with "...but someone really needs to just go in there and take over for those stupid parents." They did not give an unbiased report AT ALL. it was clearly designed to paint homeschoolers, and specifically unschoolers in the worst possible light. They focused only on the weird things this family does and not at all on things their kids did that could be seen as beneficial...but then again maybe it just wasn't there.

 

This is not to say that I agree with or support that style of homeschooling, but just like i have to support the rights of an atheist to not believe in God to protect my own religious freedom, I would defend an unschooler's right to "educate" and raise their children as they see fit.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Hedgehogs4

[Crystal in VA]

The parents were back on this morning. Here's a link to today's interview.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I am coming into this late, but having spent several years in the unschool community, yes, that is exactly what the unschoolers who run the unschooling lists and forums and speak at unschooling conferences and write unschooling books are like.

 

Exactly. Verbatim.

 

Jenny

 

:iagree: I have heard these very things on an unschooling message boards as well. I believe that the sort of no rules, anything goes talk really does a dis-service to unschoolers IMHO. IMO it is outrageous to let children stay up all night or eat what they want all the time or not brush their teeth. Without a routine of some sort how will kids learn to hold a job? Of course, our bed time here is not carved in stone, but we are all in bed at a reasonable hour and we all get up by a reasonable hour. In regards to food, I know for myself that I am already cursed with obesity and letting kids choose what they want to eat all the time could lead them to obesity as well. In regards to teeth, why risk subjecting your kids to dental caries and the procedures needed to care for them? I think there are already too many young adults who have trouble with responsibility and holding jobs and with a strong work ethic IMHO. How is letting them play all day going to help them?

 

OTOH, I agree with affording some flexibility and choices. I agree with strewing great books and offering great activities. I agree that if a child has a great interest in a subject that I should facilitate this depending upon what it is. OTOH I do not agree with facilitating video games all day as some unschoolers say. I also think that by not doing the basic 3 R's, a child's choices will be severely limited in this life. One can only catch up so much IMO. Some subjects take years to master and starting them at 17 is not going to help IMHO.

 

Overall, I think radical unschoolers can cause kids to be at a severe disadvantage in regards to their choices in life as well as work.

Edited April 20, 2010 by priscilla

[Jenny in GA]

I also think that by not doing the basic 3 R's, a child's choices will be severely limited in this life. One can only catch up so much IMO. Some subjects take years to master and starting them at 17 is not going to help IMHO.

 

 

This is a big thing in the unschooling world -- that they will quickly learn it when they decide they do need it.

 

I remember once expressing a concern about the "no chores" thing. The reply by the list owner (a very well-known unschooler) was, "So what if they turn eighteen and have never mopped a floor or cleaned a toilet? It will take less than fifteen minutes for someone to show them. Done. Over. No big deal."

 

I thought about that for a long time ... I just don't think it works that way. To me, it's more than "Here's how to mop a floor," and then it's taken care or. It's also the habits and principles and discipline involved with regularly doing certain household tasks.

 

A friend of mine who unschools told me about a great math program, and unfortunately I forget the name. But it was a six week course that taught .... mmmm, I think all elementary through middle school math. The idea is that, when you had the interest, six weeks was all it took to learn all math through about pre-algebra. I can't really say whether this is true or untrue since I never tried, but it does seem hard to believe.

 

I'm looking forward to watching the update ...

 

Jenny

http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/

[Rosy]

I agree with that, which is why I could never fully unschool my kids. I suppose I could if they were independently motivated to learn the skill subjects. Desire alone is not enough to educate someone.

 

However, I do think the GMA spots were intellectually dishonest. The 2nd one gave the parents more of an opportunity to explain how their kids were being educated, but I still don't think it took a fair look at what unschooling truly is. Radical unschooling, yes. But now I think a lot of people will hear "unschooling" and think of that family, not the many families who eat organic and don't own tvs and spend many hours every week engaged in thought and study on a variety of topics.

 

This is a big thing in the unschooling world -- that they will quickly learn it when they decide they do need it.

 

I remember once expressing a concern about the "no chores" thing. The reply by the list owner (a very well-known unschooler) was, "So what if they turn eighteen and have never mopped a floor or cleaned a toilet? It will take less than fifteen minutes for someone to show them. Done. Over. No big deal."

 

I thought about that for a long time ... I just don't think it works that way. To me, it's more than "Here's how to mop a floor," and then it's taken care or. It's also the habits and principles and discipline involved with regularly doing certain household tasks.

 

A friend of mine who unschools told me about a great math program, and unfortunately I forget the name. But it was a six week course that taught .... mmmm, I think all elementary through middle school math. The idea is that, when you had the interest, six weeks was all it took to learn all math through about pre-algebra. I can't really say whether this is true or untrue since I never tried, but it does seem hard to believe.

 

I'm looking forward to watching the update ...

 

Jenny

http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/

[LibraryLover]

Intrinsic desire/motivation is why people run marathons, drop from moving airplanes with parachutes. Intrinsic desire is the main human motivator in major accomplishment.

 

There are going to be few people who train for one job as young adults and end up with that very same job at reitrment age, so it seems almost foolish to push a young person in one limtied driection at age 18 (when most go to college). These children have been expoused to a great deal, and while I don't consider myself a radical unschooler in the purest sense, I don't see this family as doing anything wrong, and I see them as doing lots of things right. Their kids have seen more of the world than most hsers have, even if it's not been Rod and Staff or SOTW. I can bet there were some specific things those kids did to prepare for their trips, and I wouldn't be surpirsed to hear that they used some sort of program so they couldn't communicate while they were in Europe. They don't look like "Everyone there speaks English" types to me. Maybe they didn't do a narration of the Tower of London when they were 5, but they might have had a Tower of London interest sparked in them if they saw it. I don't know this family, so I have no idea where in Europe they went, what they saw, or how they prepared, but they look like the kind of family that gets excited about life.

 

It would be ridoculous to look at these children, at 13 and 15, and say they aren't going to be contributing members of society. I meam, one can say it and assume it, and people are, but that would be silly. These 13 and 15 yr olds have already been expoused to more wonderful experiences than most adults.

 

Motivation is what determines whether you do your job well, or do it without care. Intrinsic desire is everything.

 

 

 

I agree with that, which is why I could never fully unschool my kids. I suppose I could if they were independently motivated to learn the skill subjects. Desire alone is not enough to educate someone.

 

However, I do think the GMA spots were intellectually dishonest. The 2nd one gave the parents more of an opportunity to explain how their kids were being educated, but I still don't think it took a fair look at what unschooling truly is. Radical unschooling, yes. But now I think a lot of people will hear "unschooling" and think of that family, not the many families who eat organic and don't own tvs and spend many hours every week engaged in thought and study on a variety of topics.

Edited April 20, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Rosy]

I agree that intrinsic desire is important. I don't agree that it is everything.

 

I had no intrinsic desire as a teen to clean up after myself. Now I do as a mom. You would think I'd just do it. But from the teen years until now I've learned many bad habits that don't get undone overnight. Same thing with eating. I have an intrinsic desire to lose weight. But before I had that desire, I learned a lot of bad habits that are hard to overcome.

 

When my kids develop the intrinstic desire to learn about things, I want them to already have a foundation of skills and character that will enable them to pursue their passion. I feel that I would be doing them a disservice if they have to start from scratch.

 

Sorry everyone for the derail.

 

Intrinsic desire/motivation is why people run marathons, drop from moving airplanes with parachutes. Intrinsic desrie is the main human motivator in major accomplishment.

 

There are going to be few people who train for one job as young adults and end up with that very same job at reitrment age, so it seems almost foolish to be a young person in one driection. These children have been expoused to a huge variety, and while I don't consider myseld a radical unschooler in the purest sense, I don't see this family as doing anything wrong. Their kids have seen more of the world than most hsers.

 

It would be ridoculous to look at these children, at 13 and 15, and say they aren't going to be contributing members of society. I meam, one can say it and assume it, and people are, but that would be silly. These 13 and 15 yr olds have already been expoused to more wonderful experiences than most adults.

 

Motivation is what determines whether you do your job well, or do it without care. Intrinsic desire is everything.

[Allearia]

I agree that intrinsic desire is important. I don't agree that it is everything.

 

I had no intrinsic desire as a teen to clean up after myself. Now I do as a mom. You would think I'd just do it. But from the teen years until now I've learned many bad habits that don't get undone overnight. Same thing with eating. I have an intrinsic desire to lose weight. But before I had that desire, I learned a lot of bad habits that are hard to overcome.

 

When my kids develop the intrinstic desire to learn about things, I want them to already have a foundation of skills and character that will enable them to pursue their passion. I feel that I would be doing them a disservice if they have to start from scratch.

 

Sorry everyone for the derail.

 

This is the exact reason we don't unschool. I have so many things that I feel would be easier if I had been "trained" to do them automatically even when I didn't feel like it. It is such a monumental struggle for me to just clean my house even when I am EXTREMELY motivated. Same with many things. So I don't believe that people can do things just because they decide and want to do them. I think that teaching people to do things even when they don't want to is easier at a young age, then chores, hard work, hard thinking, good eating habits, than if they get to age 18 and suddenly they are supposed to be able to do all these things. I am sure it may work this way for some but with my own life experiences I am not willing to try it with my kids. And if others have different experiences that lead them to believe in unschooling that is great for them, but it won't work for me.

 

p.s. My ds8 saw the segment online this morning when they described the kids just watching TV and playing video games and said "Wow! I want to be unschooled!" Sorry kiddo, not happening :tongue_smilie: And trust me they watch more TV and play more games than they should!

[happyhomemaker25]

This is a big thing in the unschooling world -- that they will quickly learn it when they decide they do need it.

 

I remember once expressing a concern about the "no chores" thing. The reply by the list owner (a very well-known unschooler) was, "So what if they turn eighteen and have never mopped a floor or cleaned a toilet? It will take less than fifteen minutes for someone to show them. Done. Over. No big deal."

 

I thought about that for a long time ... I just don't think it works that way. To me, it's more than "Here's how to mop a floor," and then it's taken care or. It's also the habits and principles and discipline involved with regularly doing certain household tasks.

Jenny

http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/

 

 

As someone who had never mopped a floor until I got married, this makes me so sad. My kids start learning chores at an early age because I know the devestation I felt at wanting to be a good housekeeper and falling so short from lack of knowledge. Yes I learned eventually (maybe) but it would have been so much easier to learn without a husband, my own house, five kids running around...

[LibraryLover]

You are not alone in thinking that unless something is forced, it won't happen. I know that is not true. Plus, you can't force a child to want anything. You can make him do grammar, and you can make him do Latin. You can't make him remember it past a test, or like it. Sometimes it happens, often it does not. We see that all the time on the boards; parents who are doing all the 'right' things, trying curric after curric, and kids still don't get it, or get it and don't care about it, and avoid it and whine about it.

 

That is a lot of wasted time.

 

You can offer, you can punish, but you can't always make it stick. You can expose a child to history and latin and all the things we think are interesting and wonderful, but you cannot make it their path, you cannot force a click if a child is not developmentall really, or force an interest where there is none.

 

In fact, I've seen many children turned off to history and any number of things classical lovers find important because they were forced into it too early. OTOH, I have seen older childre come to adore 'hard' thngs. I think of a friend who didn't discover Latin until he was around 13, and now he wants it the way some kids want WOW.

 

There is no magic way to raise an excited learner. Hsing parents go from curric to curric thinking there is, but there isn't. Outcome-based parenting or outcome-hsing can often slap us in the face. Some children will turn out exactly as we hoped (Jessie and Susan, fi) and some will not. Some will even resent out best efforts.

 

I agree that intrinsic desire is important. I don't agree that it is everything.

 

I had no intrinsic desire as a teen to clean up after myself. Now I do as a mom. You would think I'd just do it. But from the teen years until now I've learned many bad habits that don't get undone overnight. Same thing with eating. I have an intrinsic desire to lose weight. But before I had that desire, I learned a lot of bad habits that are hard to overcome.

 

When my kids develop the intrinstic desire to learn about things, I want them to already have a foundation of skills and character that will enable them to pursue their passion. I feel that I would be doing them a disservice if they have to start from scratch.

 

Sorry everyone for the derail.

Edited April 20, 2010 by LibraryLover

[6packofun]

I remember once expressing a concern about the "no chores" thing. The reply by the list owner (a very well-known unschooler) was, "So what if they turn eighteen and have never mopped a floor or cleaned a toilet? It will take less than fifteen minutes for someone to show them. Done. Over. No big deal."

 

I thought about that for a long time ... I just don't think it works that way. To me, it's more than "Here's how to mop a floor," and then it's taken care or. It's also the habits and principles and discipline involved with regularly doing certain household tasks.

 

 

 

Well said. My kids only give themselves reasonable, practical limits when given the freedom to make wise or unwise choices on their own because we gave them limits when they were younger and eased off gradually as they became more self-sufficient. Yes, a child may learn to mop or do another responsible adult thing in a quick 5-10 minute lesson at some point. He or she will know HOW, but the greater question is will they CHOOSE to do it throughout the rest of their life? Will they see their responsibility beyond what satsifies or interests them in the moment?

 

I have to say, though, that I think unschooling as an educational choice is totally valid, but the unschooling lifestyle that surrounds it so much of the time is very unattractive at the least and at worst, irrresponsible. And I believe there are unschoolers all along the spectrum, so I don't want to vilify or stereotype (too much, lol).

Edited April 20, 2010 by 6packofun
typo

[laughing lioness]

My kids learn to clean toilets early cause we have 6/7 people living with us and, hello, I'm not the maid! They pitch in with chores cause otherwise we would have stopped at 1-2 kids.

I liked the second segment better. Unschooling is a valid educational pedagogy imho, but not one we choose, for very clear reasons. For instance, the Cofaxes are unique in the unschooling world and a close look at thier method of teaching shows clear standards and expectations, not total "delight directed" as the GMA family is advocating, or indifference, which is more the norm of what I've expereinced. I've read more and studyied more about unschooling than most of the unschoolers I've ever met- whose kids, btw,(the ones I've known) were pretty absorbed in their selves. We also hope to develop intrisic motivation, and we too parent by principal. We have almost no rules in our family but our kids KNOW the principals that we live by.

Like someone else said, we've had lots of flack over the years becasue of stuff like what GMA showed yesterday.

[Allearia]

You are not alone in thinking that unless something is forced, it won't happen. I know that is not true. Plus, you can't force a child to want anything. You can make him do grammar, and you can make him do Latin. You can't make him remember it past a test, or like it. Sometimes it happens, often it does not. We see that all the time on the boards; parents who are doing all the 'right' things, trying curric after curric, and kids still don't get it, or get it and don't care about it, and avoid it and whine about it.

 

That is a lot of wasted time.

 

You can offer, you can punish, but you can't always make it stick. You can expose a child to history and latin and all the things we think are interesting and wonderful, but you cannot make it their path, you cannot force a click if a child is not developmentall really, or force an interest where there is none.

 

I see this as a misconception unschoolers have about non-unschoolers or especially classical homeschoolers. This picture you paint of a child being "forced" to do Latin and grammar and all sorts of horrible subjects just isn't true in our homeschool.

 

My son loves Latin, but doesn't always want to do his Latin homework. I say he has to do it. Is he sitting with tears, hating and resenting every minute? Not at all. He starts and usually enjoys or at least gets through it. If he were crying I would definitely know I was doing something wrong and we might decide he wasn't ready, something is wrong, and we would work together until we could do it and enjoy it. But if I say, ok that's fine just do it when you feel like it, he will not make any progress, and it will cease to be enjoyable all together and will be one more thing we gave up on. This goes double for piano practice.

 

I think that learning that even if you don't feel like doing something once you start it isn't bad is important. Sometimes you even enjoy it -- even cleaning the house.

 

As for retaining the information they are "forced" to learn, they certainly won't learn it if they don't study it. We keep studying math every day so that it gets into long term memory and isn't just forgotten. We get exposure to lots of history, so even if some details are forgotten some impression remains when we go higher. We usually love everything we are doing, and if we don't love some things we just get them done and move on to things we do love like history and science. Even grammar is an interesting fun puzzle when you get enough knowledge to be curious about it, but how is that going to happen if you just leave grammar books lying around waiting for the child to decide to study it?

 

I don't think we are talking about opposites here - drudgery in classical education versus delight of unschooling. We have a lot of delight in our classical education and if we didn't we might keep looking, but most of our days are happy, productive, with my son wanting to learn more.

 

Not sure if that all made sense but my son just finished his piano practice, off to get out the math book and copy the worksheet!

[LibraryLover]

I agree, Jenny. It's best not to vilfiy anyone who is parenting with care, or in a way that doesn't make sense to us. It just looks like so much sour grapes, and is not helpful to the discussion of the reality: which is that there are many paths to discovery and leanring.

 

My children do not have assigned chorse except for their cats, which is a system they deal with on their own. They decided because that because they want the cats and I didn't want 3 cats. Now, if the children are away, or sick etc, I will of course help.

 

So you would think thay they wouldn't help maintain our home-- there is no chart, no force, so why would they care if mom and dad did everything? Right? Not so. They are respected, in turn they respect our work. My kids are not toddlers; they are 21, 17, 16, 10. They help because this is what a family does. They always have to the degree they were capable.

 

I can say "We need to get some stuff organized here" or what not. i can ask my kids to dust, and they will. They already do their own laundry the 10 yr old, although I mostly still do here. Not because I forced them, but because that's a lof of laundry for one person. At some point, I showed them how to do it. I admit my sons do far less laundry than their teen sisters. TYhe old socks scent in their rooms give that away. I know my dds would never take a shirt from the dirty clothes basket and put it on, but I know the boys have. ;) We have always talked about being a family and helping each other. We never expected a 3 year old to be able to put 100 wooden blocks back on the shelves alone, even though they took them out by themselves. I think they understand people often need an assist. I can say "Groceries are in the car. I need some help unloading", and so they help me unload. I bring in the first bag and start putting away, and they get the rest. I might say 'That bag is for the basement in the freezer", and someone does that.

 

I also don't have TV limits, and it's vacation week for my schooler. Do you know what the 16 yr old is doing, and has been doing for an hour? Playing the piano. He could be on the other computer, he could be playing Guitar Hero, but he is not. The TV has not been turned on. I also would not care if they watch TV or play guitar hero. Maybe that's the secret, not caring? :) Is that the same as letting go?

 

I know this sounds obnoxious, but my 19 year old is listening and practicing French pronunciation and vocabulary because she is taking ballet lessons and is fasinated by the language.

 

Of course, as I re-read this, my 3 children (oldest is at college) are now discussing French pronunciation together.

 

I never asked her to get French books and tapes, I never forced piano. I never punished a child for not doing his laundry (I have commented on the stench of dirty socks in abasket permeating the house), or unloading the car of groceries.

 

There are many ways to be a loving and 'productive' family. What looks 'No Rules' isn't anarchy, or that children are not learning or eager about aquiring new knoweldge, or won't go out into the world and do work that matters.

Edited April 20, 2010 by LibraryLover
it was a mess and the server kept going down during editing.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I see this as a misconception unschoolers have about non-unschoolers or especially classical homeschoolers. This picture you paint of a child being "forced" to do Latin and grammar and all sorts of horrible subjects just isn't true in our homeschool.

 

 

I don't think we are talking about opposites here - drudgery in classical education versus delight of unschooling. We have a lot of delight in our classical education and if we didn't we might keep looking, but most of our days are happy, productive, with my son wanting to learn more.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

Sometimes there is drudgery in the beginning stages of certain subjects. My ds did not like grammar, Latin, and even math at first. Now he loves Latin and math. He doesn't love grammar but he does a wonderful job at it and told me that he was glad that I made him stick to it because he knows it helps him. He didn't have the maturity when he was younger to see the end result of learning these things. Could he have picked them up at some time? Sure. But it isn't always easy to pick things up when you are older. And you don't always have the time to devote to these things when you are older. We have the time now.

 

Having said all that, I do ask for my dc's input into method and even curricula so that I get a match that is right for them. And I do let them fly when they have the intrinsic motivation to go on ahead or to go off on a rabbit trail for a bit. And in our house, that actually happens quite a bit.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Silly "board is busy" signal. . . .

Edited April 20, 2010 by Jean in Newcastle

[LibraryLover]

I don't think drudgery for an older child or adult is the same as 'drudgery' for a younger child. You can sometimes get there from drudgery and sometimes you miss the train. A great deal more than age comes into play when learning.

 

I disgree with the notion that learning something at 4 or 5 is easier than learning something at 12 or 13. I also think some children enjoy hard things at a yojnger ages than others. You could try to teach a 2 yr old to tie her shoes and drive yourself crazy. If you wait until they have the fine motor skills, it will be taught and learning quickly. If a 22 year old gets a fire about History or Latin in under grad or grad school, one would be hard pressed to put that fire out, even if the person had had limited exposure as a child.

 

Given how many people change careers several times throughout their lives, I obviously disagree with the notion that unless something is learned in childhood it cannot be learned, or is too difficult to learn. Desire is a great power. If people don't do things because it's 'too hard' that's their own issue. They can't look back and blame parents for not fighting with them to learn piano. There comes a point where one must take learning intp their own hands. Some people can do this, and many can't-- even people who were pushed hard in childhood. If some adults think they can only do something difficult if someone is cracking the whip...well, to me that seems that they had their spark extinqished early on, and most of those folks weren't unschooled. lol

 

Languages is an area people often beleive should be taught very young so that the speaker will not have an 'accent'. It's true older children or adults might not learn to speak a language as perfectly as a native. However, this is merely a cultural constriant, and doesn't impact total understanding of a language. It's a personal bias.

 

Fi, some French natives do not easily accept English speakers speaking French with 'an accent' but Americans find Native French speakers using a French accent when they speak English charming. Most of us accept accented English, even people we trust our lives, without issue. One of my surgeons is from India and speaks accented English, and another is is from China, and also speaks accented English. So what?

 

If you have a child who enjoys whatever they enjoy, however they go there, that is wonderful. I don't have any concerns about your child. I also do not havbe any concerns about the child who came to Latin or algebra for the first time at 13.

 

It just doesn't matter when a joy takes hold. 3 or 30, go at it. :D

 

:iagree:

 

Sometimes there is drudgery in the beginning stages of certain subjects. My ds did not like grammar, Latin, and even math at first. Now he loves Latin and math. He doesn't love grammar but he does a wonderful job at it and told me that he was glad that I made him stick to it because he knows it helps him. He didn't have the maturity when he was younger to see the end result of learning these things. Could he have picked them up at some time? Sure. But it isn't always easy to pick things up when you are older. And you don't always have the time to devote to these things when you are older. We have the time now.

 

Having said all that, I do ask for my dc's input into method and even curricula so that I get a match that is right for them. And I do let them fly when they have the intrinsic motivation to go on ahead or to go off on a rabbit trail for a bit. And in our house, that actually happens quite a bit.

Edited April 20, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

So you would think thay they wouldn't help maintain our home-- there is no chart, no force, so why would they care if mom and dad did everything? Right? Not so. They are respected, in turn they respect our work. My kids are not toddlers; they are 21, 17, 16, 10. They help because this is what a family does. They always have to the degree they were capable.

 

I can say "We need to get some stuff organized here" or what not. i can ask my kids to dust, and they will. They already do their own laundry, even, the 10 yr old. Not because I forced them, but because that's a lof of laundry for one person. They know this because we have talked about it, and always helped each other. We never expected a 3 year old to be able to put 100 wooden blocks back on the shelves by themselve, even though they tool them out by themselves. They know people often need an assit. I can say "Groceries are in the car. I need some help unbloading", and so they help me unload. I bring in the first bag and start putting away, and they get the rest. I might say 'That bag is for the basement in the freezer, and someone does that.

 

 

 

But LL, that is what much of our "forced" chores look like. I will say "this needs to be done" (including myself as one who needs to be doing it) and it is done. Occasionally I will specifically ask one child to do something but that is because are taller, or stronger or somehow better suited for that job.

 

For that matter, that is much of what our "forced" schoolwork looks like. We have a schedule (decided by me) that lets us know how we can get through a certain amount of schoolwork by the end of the year. Every morning I say"let's see what is on our schedule" not so that I can then force them to do it, but so that I can give assistance if needed and arrange my schedule accordingly.

 

My kids do have "extras" that they do entirely on their own. Ds is teaching himself to play the guitar. He is on a program of reading the classics that he and our reference librarian put together all on his own. Dd is teaching herself to sew.

 

But there were times esp. when my kids were young when they made bad choices that were harmful to them. Those were the times when I stepped in with "Mommy says you must". And they did even though they dragged their heels doing it. And over time, they've learned that Mommy does have their best interest at heart and can be trusted to only say that about the more important things.

[s0nicfreak]

Without a routine of some sort how will kids learn to hold a job?

Perhaps they will choose a job where they can set their own hours?

I never had a set routine... I did have chores, but as long as I got them done, when I did them didn't matter. I stayed up as late as I wanted... if I stayed up too late and was tired the next day or overslept, it didn't hurt anyone, just annoyed me, and I quickly learned that.

I never had a problem holding a "real" job, and now at my job as a homeschooling mom, I set the hours.

[Rosy]

I disagree with your paradigm. I don't think it's EITHER unschooling/child-led OR forced by parents. In my family we each do our part. I don't have specific expectations of how much my kids will learn, just that they will work at each subject that I've given them to work on. I don't feel like my time is being wasted--my kids are making progress in each subject area, and it isn't painful for them. I don't push them when they're not ready.

 

Like you said, there is no magic way to raise an excited learner--including unschooling. My kids don't hate school, of course they'd rather take a day off than sit down with their books...but when they're in middle school or high school what their driving passion is, we'll be ready. I don't think you can say that kids will learn whatever they want when they have an intrinsic desire. I've seen too many occasions where it hasn't happened that way.

 

However, it sounds like your way of doing things is working for your family, and that's great!

 

You are not alone in thinking that unless something is forced, it won't happen. I know that is not true. Plus, you can't force a child to want anything. You can make him do grammar, and you can make him do Latin. You can't make him remember it past a test, or like it. Sometimes it happens, often it does not. We see that all the time on the boards; parents who are doing all the 'right' things, trying curric after curric, and kids still don't get it, or get it and don't care about it, and avoid it and whine about it.

 

That is a lot of wasted time.

 

You can offer, you can punish, but you can't always make it stick. You can expose a child to history and latin and all the things we think are interesting and wonderful, but you cannot make it their path, you cannot force a click if a child is not developmentall really, or force an interest where there is none.

 

In fact, I've seen many children turned off to history and any number of things classical lovers find important because they were forced into it too early. OTOH, I have seen older childre come to adore 'hard' thngs. I think of a friend who didn't discover Latin until he was around 13, and now he wants it the way some kids want WOW.

 

There is no magic way to raise an excited learner. Hsing parents go from curric to curric thinking there is, but there isn't. Outcome-based parenting or outcome-hsing can often slap us in the face. Some children will turn out exactly as we hoped (Jessie and Susan, fi) and some will not. Some will even resent out best efforts.

[LibraryLover]

I don't say they 'need' to be done. I have never punished a child for saying no, or not doing their lauindry. It's not forced. At least not by me. That they do with without issue is because they have seen over the years that we help each other in our family. It's what we do. I have never had a chore chart, have never taken any negative action for a child who didn't pick up a towel or clean his room.

 

But LL, that is what much of our "forced" chores look like. I will say "this needs to be done" (including myself as one who needs to be doing it) and it is done. Occasionally I will specifically ask one child to do something but that is because are taller, or stronger or somehow better suited for that job.

 

For that matter, that is much of what our "forced" schoolwork looks like. We have a schedule (decided by me) that lets us know how we can get through a certain amount of schoolwork by the end of the year. Every morning I say"let's see what is on our schedule" not so that I can then force them to do it, but so that I can give assistance if needed and arrange my schedule accordingly.

 

My kids do have "extras" that they do entirely on their own. Ds is teaching himself to play the guitar. He is on a program of reading the classics that he and our reference librarian put together all on his own. Dd is teaching herself to sew.

 

But there were times esp. when my kids were young when they made bad choices that were harmful to them. Those were the times when I stepped in with "Mommy says you must". And they did even though they dragged their heels doing it. And over time, they've learned that Mommy does have their best interest at heart and can be trusted to only say that about the more important things.

[Tangerine]

I don't say they 'need' to be done. I have never punished a child for saying no, or not doing their lauindry. It's not forced. At least not by me. That they do with without issue is because they have seen over the years that we help each other in our family. It's what we do. I have never had a chore chart, have never taken any negative action for a child who didn't pick up a towel or clean his room.

 

We haven't punished. But I have a question for you. When they were little, were you concerned about the formation of their character while you were not forcing/coercing? Did you always trust they would grow up to share in responsibilities around the house, or were you worried they would kick back and eat bonbons while you vacuumed under their feet? I guess...did you always trust yourself and your methods?

[TravelingChris]

My youngest came in when the GMA was on this computer and said that it was stupid and she doesn't want to do that. SHe is my most whiny kid and yet she thinks that doing no schoolwork is a way to become a loser.

 

That said, I was in a homeschooling group that had a lot of unschoolers before. We had educational fieldtrips and group classes. The kids were doing all sorts of things that showed learning- winning contests, state fairs, getting published in the paper, etc. I didn't see the kids as any less educated than my more formally educated. I don't think that they were really hardcore unschoolers though since I know the parents used many of the same books I did. I don't think any of them just never thought the kids math. But I think the main thing was that many kids do want to learn. Not all of them, like my whiny thirteen year old who complains a lot, but many of them. I was concerned about my education in public schools as a kid and I started collecting old textbooks and reading them so I would get more educated. No one told me to do this but I got the idea my education wasn't that good by reading older novels and decided I needed to learn some grammar and some other things.