treating fevers.

[emeraldjoy]

I am going to try this on here because I don't have the guts to do so in real life. Please try not to be offended, although I understand that some may be. My heart is to help people and not hurt them and I want to try this discussion on here so I don't hurt people in real life, does that make sense?

I am seeking anecdotal evidence right now.

I am convinced that by treating our (by our I mean we as a society) children with IB profin and Tylenol regularly we are contributing to the demise of their health.

In the world of real life people that I know, the moms who regularly treat their children with fever/pain reducers are the moms with children who are chronically sick with ear infections, sinus infections, bronchitis, etc. Is this a chicken/egg sort of dilemma?

 

I really believe in the power of our immune system and that overall, it knows what to do with illness. I think that when we take the pain or fever away articifically, it confuses our fighter cells into not fighting. This results in even greater sickness that eventually our immune systems can't fight.

What do you think? Any and all thoughts are welcome. I have been thinking about this a lot lately.

thanks,

emerald

edited to add: not that you guys aren't real live people....just not personal acquaintences...I am sure you understand.

Edited March 22, 2010 by emeraldjoy

[Mermaid Mama]

You forgot asthma.

Mom's who used a lot of that stuff have higher rates of asthmatic kids over moms who let their kids run fevers.

 

I love a good fever!!!

I really start to pay attention at 103.

And if it got higher - I would start the cold compresses on the head.

Keep the brain cool and all.

 

But little kids can really run a good high fever without brain damage.

I think 105 is the line you can't cross.

Hmmmmm...off to google that.

We haven't had a big fever in a while and I have forgotten the number.

 

ETA: seems I am right.

Although new research is saying it's not so much the # of the temp but how hydrated your kid is.

So a lower temp in a dehydrated kid could be bad.

Lots of water then!!!!

 

I think 103.8 was the highest temp my daughter ever had.

She had that stuff that ends up giving you a rash around your neck and belly when it starts to go away. The toxins from the bacteria breaking down give you a rash.....and in boys you have to worry about PANDAS. Oh....what is that called?!?!?! STREP! That's it!!! She had strep. We were with friends a bit prior and she actually shared a drink or got sneezed/coughed on or something by the kid who came down with it....so when I called the mom to say my dd was sick - she said, "Oh. I know with what!" And it ran it's course and we were fine. But I do know you have to be really careful with Strep but because dd is a strong kid and never gets sick - and recovered so quickly - we were ok with letting her body do it's thing. The rash was pretty wicked though!!!

Edited March 22, 2010 by Mermaid Mama

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do not give a fever reducer unless the temperature is at least 102. Even then if the person is doing o.k. then I will hold off. I will usually try a tepid bath first before using a fever reducer at that point anyway.

[emeraldjoy]

For those that don't treat at all (unless like 103), what about the health of your children?

Edited March 22, 2010 by emeraldjoy

[Slartibartfast]

I don't give usually motrin or anything unless they are obviously uncomfortable/in pain.

[emeraldjoy]

This is what I am curious about though. A fever is uncomfortable, it just is. It may even be painful. My friends that overmedicate (in my opinion) do it because they don't want their children to be uncomfortable.

I don't give usually motrin or anything unless they are obviously uncomfortable/in pain.

[Pata]

I usually don't give any meds (fever reducer, anti-histamines, nasal decongestants and so on) unless dd is very uncomfortable and can't rest. Fevers and runny noses are our bodies way of getting rid of what causing the sickness to begin with and in my experience giving meds for every little sympton usually leads to an infection that requires antibiotics. My dd does have the occasional fever or head cold (probably 3-4 times a year), but I've only had to give her antiobiotics three times in 7 years.

[Slartibartfast]

This is what I am curious about though. A fever is uncomfortable, it just is. It may even be painful. My friends that overmedicate (in my opinion) do it because they don't want their children to be uncomfortable.

 

 

If my child is hysterical and cannot sleep then they are not going to get rest. I am not going to get rest. No one is going to feel better.

 

One can have a fever without being completely miserable. I have two kids and I have always seen a line between "warm but ok," "hot but resting peacefully in my arms" and "hot and hysterical screaming for hours everyone is about to fall over baby cannot rest or nurse or relax"

 

For teething there are tons of things one can do rather than give OTC pain relievers but if my kid has an ear infection and is hysterical then I am going to give them something. Of course that would be AFTER trying a warm cloth, oil in ear and such. I wouldn't just let them suffer if nothing else was working.

 

I would NOT agree with just expecting them to suffer through that. I don't think children should have to be in pain if it is so severe that they cannot rest at all.

 

I am sure your heart is in the right place and all and yeah, too many OTC meds are bad and one should avoid them but you got to find a happy medium.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Sis

[Melissa in Australia]

I have seen children go into convulsions when the fever gets to high. It is not a pretty sight.. In fact you are sure the child is dying.

I have had children with a fever of over 43oC they were hallucinating. it wasn't fun and it was hard to bring the fever down. I personally give my children panadol if they have a fever, and are aching all over, or have a really bad headache. I have no problem with it, and my children are very healthy, with no asthma, etc.

[lmrich]

I will chime in with...know your child. The temperature doesn't matter as much as your child's condition. Please pay attention to your own kid and their behavior associated with the fever.

 

My ds had a fever of 104+ with the swine flu. I gave him meds and fed him ice chips for 2 hours and cooled him off with a washcloth. My dd just had a fever for three days and she refused to take meds her fever got to 102. Her problem was that she wouldn't eat at all for those three days and was then weak and exhausted for three more days. If I had pushed the med, I wonder, would she have felt well enough to eat something and then not have been sick for so long.

 

Overall I agree that our bodies are amazing and can fight on their own. However, when meds are needed I am grateful for them. I firmly beleive that if you overuse, there will be consequences.

[hsmom]

I am a mom who does give the meds. I have had personal experience with ferveral seizures and it is scary and a horrible site to see. High fevers scare me now. Now my youngest gets almost like he hallucinates. Like last night he was sleeping then all of a sudden a wake but not clear he was awake or something and was rambling on about something in front of him that I could not see. He was getting mad at me because I did not know what he was talking about. It really freaked me out.

 

So, I may be of the few, but I do try to keep the fevers down.

[Amy in KS]

I give fever reducers as well. I have two children who have grand mal febrile seizures. They stink! It's more prevalent than you might think. If someone in your family has febrile seizures (I had them as a kid so I probably gave them the genes), I strongly recommend you think twice about not medicating.

 

It isn't the degree that you worry about with febrile seizures, it's how fast it moves (in both directions). A sudden jump from 100 to 102 can trigger a seizure. A downward jump can as well.

Edited March 23, 2010 by amy in ks
confusing

[Perry]

There was a recent study that showed that when kids were given paracetamol (Tylenol) after vaccination, they had less of an immune response. IOW, it interfered with the immune response and they produced fewer antibodies. BBC article

 

I don't generally give it for infectious illnesses unless the kids are really feeling awful. I'm more liberal with it for things like muscle aches and pains.

[k2bdeutmeyer]

I'm another that would rather let the fever do its thing. I don't get nervous until closer to 104 or if said child is acting very sick.

[ChristusG]

I don't medicate unless the fever is reaching near 104. Then I begin to get a bit nervous. Otherwise, I let the fever do it's thing. A few weeks ago DD2 was running a 104 fever for days. I definitely didn't like that and had to give meds more often than I was comfy with. Last night DD5 was running a 101.8 fever and I did not medicate at all.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

I don't give usually motrin or anything unless they are obviously uncomfortable/in pain.

 

Same here. We don't reduce the fever, we just let it to its job, aided by rest and hydration. Now if I had a child suffering seizures, I'd probably treat them differently. Just haven't experienced anything scary like that.

 

To answer the question about the health of my children: I've got a soon to be 12 year old who has been on antibiotics twice in his life (once for strep and once for cat bite) and a 13 1/2 year old who has been on antibiotics once in his life (a slight, painless, ear infection). The antibiotic for everything but the cat bite was plain-ol-vanilla penicillin.

 

Both children suffer seasonal allergies which I treat with Zyrtec.

[emeraldjoy]

Thanks for all your responses.

I have never had a child with feveral seizures and that is a whole other set of circumstances that I don't know much about. I am not sure what I would do in that case....I have heard about them but never experienced them.

 

My third however, gets HORRIBLE fevers when he contracts a sickness. He survived bacterial meningitis as an infant and I think somehow this altered his thermometer. It is scary. Sometimes if he is so sick and can't sleep, I feel that sleep is more important than letting him fever so I give him Motrin. This is rare though. I can't help but feel that his body is battling in such a way on purpose and that I should let it do what it needs as long as he not miserable. If I can keep him comfortable without medicine, I will....

 

The issue of discomfort is a grey area though. What constitutes too uncomfortable? HOw much is too much.......those that resonded, are we talking about a few times a year....weekly? Monthly?

 

I am fascinated with this topic because of what I see happen time and time again in real life in the people that I know personally. I do understand that it may be anecdotal....but it appears that there may be some evidence (immunization studies)...thanks for that link by the way!

 

I am realizing that this is a sort of a hot issue. Just by talking about what we do, people (not necessarily on here) seem to get offended if they do diifferent.

 

As some of you may know, I am sort of a conspiracy person. I think it would be fascinating to study the origins of common fever reducers and who was in a postion to profit from the sales. I am almost certain that someone made a whole pile of money.....! I have heard talk about the craziness of Tylenol being over the counter because it is so harmful to our livers.......huge rates of od's etc.

Also, another thing that I ponder is when a few years back all of the suddent this literature came out against cough medicines and such and how harmful they are for kids. Before, people just nonchalantly medicated their children with harmful things that they thought were okay because they were over the counter????? just pondering.

e

[emeraldjoy]

My oldest who is 11 has been on antibiotics a handful of times in her life and this was all when she was smaller and I didn't know any different. I gave her too much tylenol and such...I know I did, I just thought I was suppose. Also, the antibiotics were over perscribed and I was young and didn't know any better. My 9 year old is almost the same story, I just started getting wiser and trusting my self more. He had maybe 2-3 doses of antibiotics in his life. One for a spider bite that got out of control.

 

My 4 1/2 year old had MAJOR anitbiotics when he contracted bacterial meningitis and upon returning from an overseas trip one dose of ammoxilian for something he couldn't quite shake from Asia.

 

My 1 1/2 year old has not had anything at all.

 

We have never had an ear infection that I know of ever. Really, aside from the first few years of my olders kids' lives we have not had anything. Now....I never go in and get them labeled as anything either.

 

e

[Jean in Newcastle]

Emerald,

 

We take vitamin C, D, and A to try and boost our immune systems. When my kids get sick, we increase the vitamin C. We also take homeopathic medicines. I do believe in letting a fever do it's job. But I am aware that sometimes a fever can hurt you - esp. your brain if it gets too high.

 

When I was around 7 years old I got a very severe water borne illness that killed some children in my Japanese neighborhood. My fever got up to 107 and my mother thought that I had brain damage because I was delirious and could only wave my hands about. This was a long time ago and the Dr. came rushing to the house to give me shots of some kind to try and reduce the fever. It really is only a miracle that I wasn't one of the fatalities and that I am coherent today. I had to go on antibiotics. I am aware of how antibiotics have helped reduce the instances of death from illness so much from times past.

 

But I do think you have a point that fever reducers can be used too soon and too often, robbing our body of the benefits of fighting off infection/illness on its own, thus producing antibodies. And we all now know that too much antibiotic use can make germs resistant to the antibiotics putting us in greater danger from "super germs".

 

I can tell with my children when the usual discomfort of illness gets too much. Often they will cry or will become unresponsive. My son once started to rock back and forth. We've never had actual febrile seizures. It is judgment call thing.

[kewb]

The only time I give Tylenol or Mortrin is if my kids are truly uncomfortable/in pain and unable to sleep at night. Fever is one of things the bodies immune system does to fight off the disease. I also judge the need for medication on their behavior not their fever.

[myfunnybunch]

We don't treat fevers with meds unless the child is too uncomfortable to sleep. Otherwise, we let the fever do its job.

 

My children are healthy. They rarely get secondary infections (ear, bronchitis, etc.).

 

The same holds true for my sister's children.

 

We keep fever reducers on hand and use them sparingly. I do believe they have their place. But I also believe that our culture has become reliant on medicine as a first resort rather than trusting our bodies to fight off infection and illness and using meds as the next step.

 

Cat

[Only me]

I also think it depends on the kids. All three of mine are different. My middle daughter gets a fever pretty quickly so I tend to hold off on giving her meds unless it goes over 102 or she is very uncomfortable but I have to watch her carefully. If it is time for bed and she is over 101 I will also give meds since she has a history of spiking very quickly and had had at least 3 times in her life where fever went up to 105.

 

My other two never seem to get fevers. My oldest dd is pretty miserable if she has anything over 100 so I tend to give her meds sooner.

 

I tend to be very careful, especially lately since I almost lost my cousin 6 months ago due to overuse of Tylenol. She didn't overdose but had been using it long term. She had to have a liver transplant and almost lost her kidneys. She is still having complications and has been back into the hospital several times. The doctors there said it more common then people think and that you shouldn't stay on a regular dose of Tylenol for more than a few days (taking it every 4 hours for instance but for several days).

[razorbackmama]

This is what I am curious about though. A fever is uncomfortable, it just is. It may even be painful. My friends that overmedicate (in my opinion) do it because they don't want their children to be uncomfortable.

 

I have one who, when he was younger, would be absolutely MISERABLE with a 99 temperature. Due to his personality, we ALL were miserable.:lol: He would get a pain reliever.;) However, he does much better now and doesn't drive us all nuts with that sort of temperature.

 

I do not treat a fever until it reaches 102, especially if it is during the daytime. If it's close and at night I'll give them a pain reliever to help them sleep. A LOT just depends on how they are doing.

 

One of my sons can spike a 103-104 fever and barely bat an eye.

 

Overall my kids are healthy. Ear infections are rare (and, come to mention it, Mr. "99 degrees and I'm going to DIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" is the one who has had the most, but even those are few and far between). We do not have asthma. No allergies. None of mine have ever had any sort of lung infection. Only a couple of stomach viruses ever.

 

In a similar vein, I don't dispense cold meds unless they are absolutely miserable or it's at night.

 

Probably the ONLY exception to my typical "rule" is headaches - I'm all about Tylenol for headaches LOL.

[fairfarmhand]

4 kids here with sparing use of pain relievers. Yet one of my children almost ALWAYS comes down with secondary infections after colds/viruses etc. Don't know what it is about him but bronchitis and ear infections are pretty common with him. DD #3 went through a period of an ear infection every 8 weeks, then right as we were about to do tubes, no more infections. My point is, each child is different. Some are susceptible to different things. I give my kids meds when they cannot rest. Also with my youngest two when their fever is high, they don't want to drink anything. So that is scary.

[Ravin]

I don't treat my DD for fever unless it's a high fever (above 103), she also has pain (aches, headache), and she's readily willing to take the medication. The same is true for decongestants, cough medicine, and antihistamines. If DD would rather experience the symptoms than take the medicine, I'm NOT going to force palliatives down her throat. ABX for something that warrants it (strep, ear infection that can't be treated with drops, or that ear infection/conjunctivitis combo DD had once) are another matter. ABX for something that doesn't warrant it are also something else--I've been known to give dr's a piece of my mind and advise them to brush up on evolutionary medicine.

[Jen in PA]

I treat by symptoms, not temperature. I have given ibuprofen for earache pain (but not antibiotics) and after DS had dental work. DD had a cold last year that didn't produce a fever, but did leave her with a headache, and I think I gave her something for that. Neither one has had a fever over 104, which is my line for letting things go before I would try meds.

[MaMa2005]

DS has been home from China for 2 years and 7 months. We just experienced him being SICK for the first time. He got strep in his sinuses, nostrils, and ears. I used Motrin/Tylenol twice for the high fever (above 104). This is his first time on antibiotics and he really needed them as the strep had opened a small place on his nostril and was invading the skin.

 

We don't use medication and DS is one of the healthiest kids I know. Even his pediatrician has said so.

 

ETA: In his orphanage, he was not given medication for anything. So perhaps no medication does lead to a healthier child.:confused:

[DianeW88]

I am a mom who does give the meds. I have had personal experience with ferveral seizures and it is scary and a horrible site to see. High fevers scare me now. Now my youngest gets almost like he hallucinates. Like last night he was sleeping then all of a sudden a wake but not clear he was awake or something and was rambling on about something in front of him that I could not see. He was getting mad at me because I did not know what he was talking about. It really freaked me out.

 

So, I may be of the few, but I do try to keep the fevers down.

 

Former ped nurse, here. What you are describing sounds like a "night terror". Very, very common in young children and not at all related to any previous febrile convulsions. They tend to happen within a few hours after your child has gone to bed. They are not awake and they may in fact tell you they are seeing things (my youngest used to see bugs crawling on the walls) and appear to look right through you. Simply reassure your child that everything is fine and gently try to get them to lay down and go back to sleep. They will eventually (within 5-30 minutes)fall into a deep sleep and should be fine for the rest of the night. Kids will outgrow this by adolescence...usually much sooner.

 

Diane

[catalinakel]

For those that don't treat at all (unless like 103), what about the health of your children?

 

My children are extremely healthy, and I have rarely given them fever reducing medicine. They are 11 and 12. I have used tepid baths, cool compresses and fresh air to bring down fevers.

 

I believe that any medicine is toxic, and that, yes, our bodies can process it, but each time it does, use energy that is needed for maintaining health. In doing so, we compromise our health. I believe in our immune system's ability to maintain our health.

[JenneinCA]

I have two kids(ds5 and dd11) who have sensory issues and won't take medicine without a fight and one (ds9) who will take it just fine.

 

If either of ds5 or dd11 is feeling sick enough that they are willing to take a fever reducer medicine I will treat the fever regardless of what the thermometer says. That said, they got fever reducers with the flu we had in October. They were totally zonked by the flu. Not even able to watch tv, achy, tired and very out of it. Dd11 had a temp about 102 and ds5 at 103.5. But they haven't had anything else for may years. Neither of these kids are sick very often. Each has had one ear infection ever and neither has had antibiotics since they were under a year old, to treat that one ear infection.

 

Ds9 doesn't get sick either. He got the flu when the rest of us did and was the only one who didn't take any fever reducers. His temperature got to about 101 and stayed there. He felt icky and just wanted to watch tv all day, but was NOT zonked and was still able to talk and drink. I would treat him based on how he was acting. He had tons of ear infections between the ages of 1 and 3 but hasn't had any since. He hasn't had antibiotics since the last of those ear infections many years ago.

 

So that is one set of data points, healthy kids, no medicine. Hooray!

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I'm posting without reading the other responses because I don't want to sound swayed by them at all.

 

I believe your hypothesis is false, based on my experience with my own three children. After initially allowing a fever to set in, I do treat it with Tylenol and Motrin (alternating every 3 hours). I do agree that the fever causes the immune system to kick in, but I don't agree that additional fever provides enough (if any) additional benefit to force my children (or my dh or myself) to suffer. I believe that the best antidote for illness is rest. Lots of rest. If my children are lying there, tossing and turning, aching and moaning, crying in the pain of their sore throats, they are not resting.

 

Treating the fever allows them to sleep comfortably. It makes them more willing to drink the fluids they need. It makes them more able to swallow the food that they need. If they're sleeping soundly, then I can sleep more soundly, allowing me to be much more caring and sympathetic of their needs. I do a better job of nursing them if I get my rest. I need them to sleep.

 

To answer your question, No, my kids aren't always sick. My kids are hardly ever sick. When they do catch something, they get over it quickly. My little girl used to get croup when she was a baby, but she hasn't had anything more than a slight cold in over two years. The older kids have never even been to our doctor for illness since we moved here five years ago. I honestly don't remember the last time I took any of my kids to the doctor for illness (except for the croup).

 

If they get sick, I usually let them keep their low fever through the day, and will treat it at bedtime so they'll be able to sleep. If the fever goes over 102, I treat it with Tylenol first (because it works faster), then (3 hours later) with Motrin (because it lasts longer). I alternate them every three hours (allowing 6 hours between repeating either), through the day, ending with Motrin at night. Usually, sometime on the second day they will break out in a sweat. Then, I know the fever has broken, and I stop medicating. They're usually feeling fine by this time, but I'll make them stay quiet until the third day, when they're generally running around with only a residual hack.

 

Even with the flu, which three of us got this year (for the first time in at least 8 years), our recovery was less than half the time generally expected. We each were basically down for three days. I contribute much of our speedy recovery to a wonderful naturopathic remedy called Fection. We start taking it at the first hint of any virus. Our colds last 1 1/2 days, and the flu lasted 3 1/2 days. Wonderful stuff!

 

Anyway, I hope this was helpful, even though I wasn't able to support your idea. I'm off to read the other responses.

[emeraldjoy]

Thanks again to all who took the time to respond. I wish I had time to reply to each one personally.

 

Catalinakel....you almost perfectly summed up my position and experience on the issue.

 

One thing that I think about often is our experience with my third contracting bacterial meningitis when he was an infant. He would be dead without antibiotics and the morphine and tylenol provided him some much needed comfort during the worst days. I am so very thankful for what medicine has to offer, my son's life!!. If I had been stubborn in my anti-med ways, which I have been known to do, he would be dead. I do believe there is a time and place for medicine. Somehow though, I believe we have made a mistake by treaing medicine and medical professionals as part of a normal experience. I mean, we just regularly, normally go to the professionals and seek out medicine and advice about day to day stuff that we should be using our own common sense about. We should save the medical part of our culture for what it is intended for...emergent and serious situations. These should be few and far bewteen,not commonplace. Does that make sense?

 

A great example of this is having babies. Having a baby is the most natural thing that a woman can experience. It is beautiful and healthy or it should be. Doctors should be available when things are not normal and when they can use their training as surgeons, etc.... but I don't believe is should be a common thing to go to a "doctor" for having a baby and all that entails. Other countries have far lower rates of prenatal deaths and use midwives at far greater numbers......

 

okay, I went off here a bit too much.

 

I really do appreciate all the feedback.

Thanks so much,

emerald

 

Suzanne, thanks for your story. It definitely provides good food for thought on my hypothesis.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

 

Suzanne, thanks for your story. It definitely provides good food for thought on my hypothesis.

 

It's kind of funny. I started out saying I medicate "as soon as the fever reaches 102, so that my child can rest". Many others started out saying they don't medicate, "unless it reaches 102, because they want their child to rest."

 

We're doing the same thing, we're just looking at it differently! This could be a whole other study! :lol:

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I have seen children go into convulsions when the fever gets to high. It is not a pretty sight.. In fact you are sure the child is dying.

I have had children with a fever of over 43oC they were hallucinating. it wasn't fun and it was hard to bring the fever down. I personally give my children panadol if they have a fever, and are aching all over, or have a really bad headache. I have no problem with it, and my children are very healthy, with no asthma, etc.

 

 

I also have a son who went into a really bad siezure. He was sick, and we didnt give him anything so his body could fight off whatever it was causing it. Well, his eyes rolled back into his head, he was completely non responsive, and I think for a time he even stopped breathing until I started shaking him as I attempted to speak to the 911 operator. He was just 22 months old.

 

We let fevers do their job, to a point. After that we really learned our lesson. My son went from feverish (100.7 to 105.3 literally within 10 minutes. We were told by the paramedics that had he been given tylenol we never would have had to go through that. I will tell you from a mother, that is NO WAY you EVER want to see your baby. I thought he was dying in my arms.

 

My kids are rarely sick, we dont go straight to meds for comfort, they do not get ear infections, they do not have asthma. They are very healthy kids. We do use meds when needed. My son has walking pneumonia we found out today. Maybe had I given him cold meds sooner this wouldnt have happened. I dont know.