"Homeschooling always equals better"

[Jenny in GA]

Several threads today have made me wonder:

 

1) Do you agree with that statement (okay, you can add "almost always" if that helps!)

 

2) Do you think many homeschoolers agree with and promote that statement as being true, and if so, do you think it sometimes cause harm?

 

Please elaborate! :)

[MIch elle]

1. Homeschool does NOT mean better! Vice versa as well!

 

2. I don't know because I don't hang out with any IRL homeschoolers these days.

 

BETTER in what way and for WHOM? It's VERY hard to determine. ;)

[LibraryLover]

Well...I know some awesome schooled kids and families, and I know some messed up hsing families and vice- versa (is that how you write that? See, I don't even know. I shouldn't be allowed to hs! lol)

 

I think it depends on who you are, what is available to you blah blah blah.

 

I know one of my kids is getting an outsourced chemistry lab that no way no how could I give her. I wouldn't even pretend I could do for her what someone else is currently doing. ;) I am a flawed hsing parent, and I don't feel the least bit guitly about it. lol

Edited February 8, 2010 by LibraryLover

[LauraGB]

There are so many factors that would contribute to it going either way. For us, yes, I'm quite confident it does equal better. However, it really depends on the parent doing the teaching and how capable or willing they are to work with each child, and then it depends on the child and how that child learns best, etc.

 

As another poster pointed out, I know some really great homeschool families who are excelling and some where I actually question thier basic ability to parent (in which case, it probably isn't better to be homeschooling, unfortunately).

[Jean in Newcastle]

"Homeschooling always equals better" ____________(what?) You need an object here.

 

academics - of course it's not always better. It depends on the curriculum and the parent-teacher. But low teacher-student ratio, the ability to choose quality curriculum without it going through a school board, and the ability to tailor things to the student can make it better.

 

socialization - not always better if the family is disfunctional and/or is so hands off that they don't model or teach any social skills at all. But the model of adult teaching the kids social skills vs. kids teaching kids social skills can make it better.

 

learning environment - again, if the home is chaotic or disfunctional, then no. But the ability to tailor learning opportunities to the student through hands on learning, field trips and books that ignite one's soul can make it better. On this one, a good school can do the same but having a lower student-teacher ratio makes it a surer thing.

 

I'm sure there are more words I could plug in there but my mind is blank at the moment.

[elegantlion]

Several threads today have made me wonder:

 

1) Do you agree with that statement (okay, you can add "almost always" if that helps!)

 

No, I don't agree with that. Homeschooling is the better choice for OUR family, but I don't think it's always the better choice. I don't think everyone should homeschool.

 

 

2) Do you think many homeschoolers agree with and promote that statement as being true, and if so, do you think it sometimes cause harm?

 

Many homeschoolers? No. I think blanket statements that _______ (insert whatever in life) is better for everyone should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Please elaborate! :)

[LauraGB]

2) Do you think many homeschoolers agree with and promote that statement as being true, and if so, do you think it sometimes cause harm?

 

 

A long time ago, I encouraged one of those questionable families to which I refer in my post above to homeschool before I completely understood their situation. I do think it caused harm. And I feel horrible about it. I refrain from that kind of advice now.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I think it was, maybe still is, promoted as true. I think it's ridiculous. However, part of that comes with age, maturity and cynicism. There was a time I thought it, at least to a large degree. Now I know better. A LOT of homeschooling parents fail to educate, discipline, guide, school, etc. Sad.

[jenL]

For OUR family, yes it is better; however, I can't say that it would be best for every family because there are some families where this lifestyle would definitely not work for a variety of reasons (#1 being willingness).

 

As for knowing homeschoolers who believe it's the best and "only" way. I don't know any IRL; yet, on my local e-loops there are posts where it's very clear that this is how the particular poster believes. I know they are in my area, but I've yet to meet anyone like that.

[Laura Corin]

I don't think home education is necessarily better. We have always looked at each child individually, year by year. We are moving towards bricks and mortar school - we think that that is the best thing for them during this season of their lives.

 

Laura

[Impish]

For us? Yes, absolutely.

For everyone? Absolutely not.

 

If one size fit all, then ps would be completely successful.

[G5052]

I've seen the results of homeschooling at the community college where I teach, and I've taught enough other homeschooled kids at co-ops to know that we aren't universally doing "better" if that means a better education. I would say we're doing at least as well as the public and private schools educationally.

 

Personally though, I know I'm doing better than the local public and private schools because my kids play with neighbor kids and I know a lot of teachers.

[Saille]

There are so many factors that would contribute to it going either way. For us, yes, I'm quite confident it does equal better. However, it really depends on the parent doing the teaching and how capable or willing they are to work with each child, and then it depends on the child and how that child learns best, etc.

 

As another poster pointed out, I know some really great homeschool families who are excelling and some where I actually question thier basic ability to parent (in which case, it probably isn't better to be homeschooling, unfortunately).

 

I'd agree with this statement. I'd also add that, when someone expresses an interest in homeschooling to me, I tend to respond in terms of demystifying it rather than encouraging it for that specific family. I think we can safely advocate for homeschooling as an option that is as viable as public school without saying all families can/should hs. In fact, I think it's important to do that, specifically b/c:

 

1. (as someone said on another thread recently) folks tend to follow the herd and are not always aware of less common choices.

 

2. Public schools are sometimes rather overconfident that they ARE the only viable option, and I think an important part of greasing their collective wheels is reminding them that they're not.

[patchfire]

I do not agree with the premise, but I have many times seen that premise or a variation of it promoted. My favorite is that playing "Club Penguin" online for three to four hours daily is better than public school.

 

I do think it can cause harm.

[stripe]

I don't think there are any blanket statements that hold true, but they're bandied around a lot. For example, the idea that private school is always better than public AND homeschool is the same as a high-priced private prep school. The idea that public schools are bastions of multiethnic friendships and great social opportunities (and relatedly, that without public schools, our children will be in an all white bubble -- which of course assumes that everyone is white and all families are of one ethnic background, and no one has friends or neighbors outside the "bubble"). Or that public schools are uniformly dangerous. The idea that public school teachers are (pick one) well prepared OR utterly unqualified. The idea that public schools will destroy the faith/piety of our children. The idea that parents always care about their kids and always do the right thing for them. The assumption that all parents are sufficiently well educated to educate their children (when, in the US, more than 20% of adults are considered "functionally illiterate"). The idea that parental love can heal all problems. And so on.

 

These assumptions impede serious conversation. All families are just not the same. All circumstances are not the same. It would be nice if there was a bit less judgment on all sides.

[Jenny in GA]

As for knowing homeschoolers who believe it's the best and "only" way. I don't know any IRL; yet, on my local e-loops there are posts where it's very clear that this is how the particular poster believes. I know they are in my area, but I've yet to meet anyone like that.

 

I was pressed for time when I jotted down the OP. Let me elaborate a little more:

 

I've noticed that a lot of times when someone says they're concerns if they're doing "enough" with homeschooling, or if their kids would be better off in school, etc, they're often met with, "It's impossible to mess up first grade" or "No, you're the perfect person for the job because God gave you those children," or, "Well hey, don't worry about music, because the music classes in public school are pretty lame anyway."

 

Here's a good example of what I mean: (mentioned about halfway through, if you're in a hurry)

 

http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/2008/03/book-review-lies-homeschooling-moms.html

 

I'm not talking so much about "Everyone should homeschool." Rather, as a way of being encouraging, "Whatever you're doing must be okay, because homeschooling always produces better results than school does, so don't worry about it."

 

And I guess I started wondering: Do people say that too much? And do you know of examples where that was not the case?

 

Not so much "drowned her kids" stories ... but where the kids clearly got a less-than-stellar education, and it probably surprised the family, because they just assumed that since they were homeschooling, they must be getting a "better than" education?

[angela in ohio]

And I guess I started wondering: Do people say that too much? And do you know of examples where that was not the case?

 

Not so much "drowned her kids" stories ... but where the kids clearly got a less-than-stellar education, and it probably surprised the family, because they just assumed that since they were homeschooling, they must be getting a "better than" education?

 

I posted a while back about my experience with this. I know several homeschooling families who have been surprised to have otherwise bright dc behind when they end up putting them in school in the past few years, because they were somewhat relaxed and bought the line that the public schools weren't doing anything. They weren't talking about adjusting to the way ps works; they were telling me that they had no idea how much and how rigorous of work the public schools were doing and now their dc were playing catch up and not succeeding very well at it. They all ended up saying that they would have worked much harder if they had known what the competition was up to. :001_smile: (Not everyone's goal is academic excellence, of course.)

 

We cannot believe that 'anything is better than public school.' It is not an appropriate way to evaluate the way we educate our dc. If you want to be relaxed and acadmics aren't your focus, that's fine, but don't claim it's because you are still doing better than public school.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I was pressed for time when I jotted down the OP. Let me elaborate a little more:

 

I've noticed that a lot of times when someone says they're concerns if they're doing "enough" with homeschooling, or if their kids would be better off in school, etc, they're often met with, "It's impossible to mess up first grade" or "No, you're the perfect person for the job because God gave you those children," or, "Well hey, don't worry about music, because the music classes in public school are pretty lame anyway."

 

Here's a good example of what I mean: (mentioned about halfway through, if you're in a hurry)

 

http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/2008/03/book-review-lies-homeschooling-moms.html

 

I'm not talking so much about "Everyone should homeschool." Rather, as a way of being encouraging, "Whatever you're doing must be okay, because homeschooling always produces better results than school does, so don't worry about it."

 

And I guess I started wondering: Do people say that too much? And do you know of examples where that was not the case?

 

Not so much "drowned her kids" stories ... but where the kids clearly got a less-than-stellar education, and it probably surprised the family, because they just assumed that since they were homeschooling, they must be getting a "better than" education?

 

I think that these responses to people's angst assumes a couple of things. It assumes that the person is (or is going to) be doing their best. I think because of the small teacher-student ratio and the many sources of good curriculum out there that (provided people are using it) there is some lee-way that allows newbies (as we all were once) to get up to speed. Also if you start young, there isn't as much rigor so that in and of itself, allows you time to get up to speed.

 

Again, with the "perfect person for the job" comment, it assumes that you can translate the love you have for the child into actual schoolwork. Parents are natural teachers on many fronts but we all know parents who have neglected to teach their kids basic social skills, manners etc. (I'm talking about cases where it was from parents letting the ball drop on these things, not cases where the parents did their best and due to various special needs etc. the child had trouble learning these things.)

 

I worry about music - and art - and drama and all those things that constitute the "liberal arts" so I would disagree with the music class comment. Often the arts is one area where the schools excel - if they are able to get a teacher who actually majored in the arts.

[LynnG in Arizona]

I was pressed for time when I jotted down the OP. Let me elaborate a little more:

 

I've noticed that a lot of times when someone says they're concerns if they're doing "enough" with homeschooling, or if their kids would be better off in school, etc, they're often met with, "It's impossible to mess up first grade" or "No, you're the perfect person for the job because God gave you those children," or, "Well hey, don't worry about music, because the music classes in public school are pretty lame anyway."

 

Here's a good example of what I mean: (mentioned about halfway through, if you're in a hurry)

 

http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/2008/03/book-review-lies-homeschooling-moms.html

 

I'm not talking so much about "Everyone should homeschool." Rather, as a way of being encouraging, "Whatever you're doing must be okay, because homeschooling always produces better results than school does, so don't worry about it."

 

And I guess I started wondering: Do people say that too much? And do you know of examples where that was not the case?

 

Not so much "drowned her kids" stories ... but where the kids clearly got a less-than-stellar education, and it probably surprised the family, because they just assumed that since they were homeschooling, they must be getting a "better than" education?

 

I have heard these type of statements from homeschoolers regularly over the years, and it drives me crazy. I recently posted on another thread about a comment I overheard where a homeschool mom said that she usually gets around to only 1/4th of the math book each year, but that it was ok . . . "because it was still more than the kids would be getting in a public school".

 

HUH? (I'll put in the obligatory caveats: a situation where the kids were older, no learning disabilities, and no extreme family situations such as a chronic illness, family member death, etc.)

 

I know that I actually received a superlative education in a public high school. It wasn't that long ago. ;) My brother is currently a high school teacher who has taught in both public and private school settings, and I know what a great teacher he is and how hard he pushes his kids. Yes, I know not everyone is like that, and I know there are some definite cases where a teacher should not be in the classroom. However, to make a blanket statement that all public schools are worthless or near worthless, and that homeschools are always better, is misguided at best.

 

I have also heard this type of sentiment preached at homeschool conventions, and it just makes me . . . cringe.

[Impish]

The way the question is phrased, to me 'homeschooling' means that there is effort, curricula, the children are being taught. That's what 'homeschooling' means to me. Not laying around, doing nothing, beating the kids, getting drunk, etc.

 

Homeschooling, where the child's education is held paramount, and everything possible is done to ensure the child is well rounded and educated...is that better than public school?

 

To me, the answer is yes. Its a system of checks and balances, but if I *didn't* believe that homeschooling was better than ps, why would I be doing it? If it wasn't what was best for my children, then why the heck would I be working so hard at it, rather than sending them off, and spend my days napping or something? There's pretty much anything else I could do with my days that would be less stressful than home education, worrying about if I've done the right thing, etc.

 

There's no 'always' when it comes to parenting. These kids don't come with instruction manuals, nor guarantees.

 

I've had a friend who was/is a ps teacher tell me that the first few years are more about training the children, not educating them. She teaches anywhere from gr 1-6. I can do better than that.

 

Undoubtedly, there are situations that children, while being at home, are not being 'home educated'. Those cases are why absolutes don't work for any situation where a human being is involved...unless we're talking about gravity :D

[justamouse]

A month ago I would have said no, it's not better, but I just had something happen in my life that proved that false. So, yes, better, all the time no matter what. I understand many don't feel that way, though.

[stripe]

The way the question is phrased, to me 'homeschooling' means that there is effort, curricula, the children are being taught. That's what 'homeschooling' means to me.... Homeschooling, where the child's education is held paramount, and everything possible is done to ensure the child is well rounded and educated...is that better than public school?

But then your definition of homeschooling has success built in! It's like assuming all public school teachers are experts in their fields and fully credentialed -- it's simply not always the case and is neither inherently nor consistently part of the public school experience.

 

I know people who was homeschooled, by a very well-intentioned parent, as a reaction to a bad situation. After a few years, the kids were enrolled in private school because it just wasn't working. Could it have worked? I would imagine yes. But did it? No.

[StephanieZ]

Several threads today have made me wonder:

 

1) Do you agree with that statement (okay, you can add "almost always" if that helps!)

 

2) Do you think many homeschoolers agree with and promote that statement as being true, and if so, do you think it sometimes cause harm?

 

Please elaborate! :)

 

1) No.

 

2) Yes.

[michelle l]

Homeschooling always equals better"

 

Several threads today have made me wonder:

 

1) Do you agree with that statement (okay, you can add "almost always" if that helps!)

 

2) Do you think many homeschoolers agree with and promote that statement as being true, and if so, do you think it sometimes cause harm?

 

 

 

 

We are brand new to hs this year. I spent spring and summer scouring books and the internet for information, and much of what I read agreed with the statement in the OP. Sooooo much of the information was heavily scewed toward hs being the BEST choice. It was also very negative toward ps. This is in fact something I have struggled with -- I often see an attitude toward ps that is downright nasty, and while that is occasionally warrented I do find it quite off-putting.

 

Over the summer I attended a Q&A session by a the local HS group. One couple in particular had an extremely superior attitude. It left such a bad taste in my mouth that I nearly didn't try homeschooling.

[Georgiana Daniels]

No, it is not always the best choice, even for well-intentioned parents. When my oldest was about to enter 9th grade I had a decision to make: keep her at home, trying to learn while her little sisters lobbed blocks at her during Algebra, or send her back to ps.

 

Admittedly, the high school kids in ps sometimes act like my kidlets at home, providing the same amount of distraction (if not more), but overall I know my oldest is getting a better education at ps than I could provide at home, given the circumstances. When my kidlets get to be that age, it's anyone's guess what will happen.

[Haiku]

 

1) Do you agree with that statement (okay, you can add "almost always" if that helps!)

 

I think homeschooling is usually better. Not only is an individualized education likely to be better, but I believe that the social environment of the vast, vast majority of schools is destructive. I think that homeschooling is a lifestyle and not just a way of becoming educated (so is public or private schooling), and I think that the overall homeschooling lifestyle is likely to be more positive than the schooling lifestyle. I have a child in school, so I know something of which I speak.

 

2) Do you think many homeschoolers agree with and promote that statement as being true, and if so, do you think it sometimes cause harm?

 

Many? Yes. All? No. Some of my closest friends homeschool ONLY because they don't like the public schools where they live and would put their kids in school if there were a good school.

 

Do I think this statement causes harm? No. Why should encouraging someone to take responsibility for their child's education and strengthen the family unit cause harm? What kind of harm do you mean?

 

Tara

[TravelingChris]

Is is always the best choice= clearly not. There are parents who aren't homeschooling at all but doing some evil things (not talking about unschoolers, talking about criminals). THere are people who are homeschooling and it would be better for them to send their children to school (better for the children or the parents or both and I don't mean in the same way as it is better to order chicken or fish). However, with well meaning parents who are reasonably educated and want what's best for their children, yes, I do think homeschooling is better. It would be better for almost all children to have one on one or one on five teaching 24/7. Okay, you need to sleep and shower, but you know what I mean. I use all kinds of things as teaching moments that I wouldn't probably have if I only taught in a school. I think I would have considered home time to be mom and wife time. Now more of my time at home is teacher time with relatively less mom and wife time (a lot less wife time since dh is gone for long stretches of time). Does that mean we learn the same things at school or homeschool? We don't learn the same things from school to school. As to music and art, I think we personally do more than school. My kids have all taken music lessons, been in choir for many years, taken art lessons, and we go to concerts, art museums, theatrical productions, etc. more than most kids get to go with their schools.

[Jenny in GA]

 

Do I think this statement causes harm? No. Why should encouraging someone to take responsibility for their child's education and strengthen the family unit cause harm? What kind of harm do you mean?

 

Tara

 

A myopic awareness that could cause problems.

 

People encouraging other homeschoolers that "no matter what you do, it's better than school, do don't worry about it."

 

Homeschoolers assuming that homeschooling is superior, so they miss a lot of areas and don't delve as deeply and rigorously into areas as they should. Then one day they (or their kids!) are stunned to realize they have a sixteen or eighteen or twenty year old that is really lacking academically.

 

(I don't mean parents who are lazy or drunk, but simply parents who are simply in a sort of "homeschooling bubble," and don't worry too much if they're "keeping up" or if their kid doesn't learn to read til he's 8 or 9.)

 

Then there's the "harm" that simply comes from pride -- probably not conscious, but just the idea that school always means low standards and rude kids, and homeschooling ... well, is almost always superior to that.

 

Here's a good way to put it -- a false sense of security.

 

OP

[Haiku]

Homeschoolers assuming that homeschooling is superior, so they miss a lot of areas and don't delve as deeply and rigorously into areas as they should. Then one day they (or their kids!) are stunned to realize they have a sixteen or eighteen or twenty year old that is really lacking academically.

 

 

I think this gets into the idea that what the pubic schools are doing is really what education is all about, so if we aren't keeping up with them, we are failing our children. I don't believe that. Public schools are one type and method of education, and public schools have defined a certain body of knowledge as what an educated person should possess.

 

I don't think they are succeeding that well, I think they go about it the wrong way, and I don't think that what they have defined as education is necessarily what education is. So, I am one of those people who doesn't particularly care what the public school is teaching and I don't try to keep up or replicate what they are doing.

 

We follow TWTM pretty closely, but I also believe that my real goal is to teach my kids how to educate themselves. If I graduate kids who can find a topic or problem to wrestle with, learn about, and master, I don't care whether they learned what public schools teach and I don't care whether the have the "breadth and depth" (and I use that phrase tongue in cheek) that a public school would provide. My experience in ps, and what I am seeing with my schooled child's education, is that schools provide a shallow and scattershot approach to learning and that they certainly don't "delve deeply and rigorously" into things.

 

This is not to say that I think homeschooling works in every instance. I am in a situation where it is simply impossible for me to homeschool my oldest, regardless of my desire to do so. I had to send her to school. But I don't think she is getting any sort of superior education and, were circumstances different, I think I could impart a deeper and broader body of knowledge to her, in less time and with less frustration, than what she is getting at school. I see school as what she does because I can't homeschool her, not just an alternative to homeschooling.

 

I was in either high school or college when I first heard of homeschooling. I decided immediately that I would homeschool my kids because I was so disappointed with my education. And I went to one of the best districts in the state.

 

But then again, as I said in my previous post, I don't see homeschooling as strictly an academic venture.

 

Tara

[Erica in PA]

Several threads today have made me wonder:

 

1) Do you agree with that statement (okay, you can add "almost always" if that helps!)

 

2) Do you think many homeschoolers agree with and promote that statement as being true, and if so, do you think it sometimes cause harm?

 

Please elaborate! :)

 

Yes, I will say that I think that homeschooling is almost always better than public schools, under certain conditions: 1. The family is a healthy, stable, loving family. 2. Parents have the ability, flexibility in their schedule, and commitment to be able to effectively teach their children. Since these two conditions are not always reality, public schools may well be the better choice for children in those situations-- however, I don't think this means that public school is as strong or effective a choice as homeschooling.

 

And for #2, I think many homeschoolers agree with that statement. I think the only way that it could cause harm is if it gives the false assurance that homeschooling is best no matter what you do, no matter what kind of family dynamics, and no matter how little time or effort a parent devotes to it.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Erica in PA

[Jenny in GA]

I think this gets into the idea that what the pubic schools are doing is really what education is all about, so if we aren't keeping up with them, we are failing our children.

 

Tara

 

Mmmm ... maybe.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of being able to "compete" or "keep up."

 

For example, a homeschool kid (or anybody) who thinks they're doing just fine, and then are stunned to realize that they have to take several remedial courses in college -- and that even those are a struggle for him/her.

 

Or something even more basic -- say, someone always using a calculator, one day it dawns on them that other people they knew are able to add things in their head.

 

Or they think they write fine because they can jot down a sentence here and there, but it never occurred to them that other people their age were regularly writing five paragraph essays, and/or research papers.

 

I'm not saying any of that has ever happened to homeschooled kids. I'm just trying to give more details of the kinds of things I mean.

 

I know what it feels like to think you're doing well and working hard, and then be stunned when you walk into a situation and are way behind everybody else. It's not fun, and it's not pretty.

 

OP

[lisabees]

I think homeschooling is usually better. Not only is an individualized education likely to be better, but I believe that the social environment of the vast, vast majority of schools is destructive. I think that homeschooling is a lifestyle and not just a way of becoming educated (so is public or private schooling), and I think that the overall homeschooling lifestyle is likely to be more positive than the schooling lifestyle. I have a child in school, so I know something of which I speak.

 

 

You mention something, Tara, that I have heard a lot on these boards. That the social environment of public schools is destructive. Sure, I realize that can be true. Sure, there are kids who would be emotionally safer and more confident if they homeschooled. But most of the kids I know, including my three, LOVE the social environment of the public school. It's what keeps them going each day. Now, there are some kids, usually because there are issues, who are beaten down every day and their parents worry. This is a case where I would hs. But, many kids I know love, if not thrive, being around other kids, playing in the orchestra, hanging out with friends in between classes, attending the football games, and just being part of a living community. There is a lot of energy in a public school that is engaging.

 

Maybe I haven't found public schools to be socially destructive because I live in middle class suburbia. Maybe it's because I haven't personally experienced it myself. I don't miss the high school years. I went through a terrible time with my family and got bad grades, but didn't find ps to be socially destructive.

 

I just wonder what makes homeschoolers think so?

[Haiku]

But most of the kids I know, including my three, LOVE the social environment of the public school. It's what keeps them going each day.

 

Well, sure. Most kids love candy and junk food, too, but a steady diet of it is not good for them.

 

My dd is in 9th grade. She loves the social environment of school. I see its negative impacts on her in ways she doesn't. She also loves to eat a carb-heavy, empty-calorie diet. I see its negative effects on her in ways that she doesn't.

 

Tara

[Impish]

I think homeschooling is usually better. Not only is an individualized education likely to be better, but I believe that the social environment of the vast, vast majority of schools is destructive. I think that homeschooling is a lifestyle and not just a way of becoming educated (so is public or private schooling), and I think that the overall homeschooling lifestyle is likely to be more positive than the schooling lifestyle. I have a child in school, so I know something of which I speak.

 

 

 

Many? Yes. All? No. Some of my closest friends homeschool ONLY because they don't like the public schools where they live and would put their kids in school if there were a good school.

 

Do I think this statement causes harm? No. Why should encouraging someone to take responsibility for their child's education and strengthen the family unit cause harm? What kind of harm do you mean?

 

Tara

:iagree:

But then your definition of homeschooling has success built in! It's like assuming all public school teachers are experts in their fields and fully credentialed -- it's simply not always the case and is neither inherently nor consistently part of the public school experience.

 

I know people who was homeschooled, by a very well-intentioned parent, as a reaction to a bad situation. After a few years, the kids were enrolled in private school because it just wasn't working. Could it have worked? I would imagine yes. But did it? No.

But its *my* definition, lol! Homeschooling is not 'hey, lets yank the kid out so I don't have to wake up early to get him on the bus, he can watch cartoons all day', etc. We all agree that's not homeschooling its being irresponsible, and not one of us would tell a parent like that to keep on, its superior to public education! Indeed, I think that if any of us were confronted with a case that was clearly, without a doubt, educational neglect, we would do something about it.

 

Its like...you're not a mechanic just because you happen to have a socket set. Or parenting is an action, its effort, its more than the act of giving birth. Does that make sense?

[LibraryLover]

Well, sure. Most kids love candy and junk food, too, but a steady diet of it is not good for them.

 

My dd is in 9th grade. She loves the social environment of school. I see its negative impacts on her in ways she doesn't. She also loves to eat a carb-heavy, empty-calorie diet. I see its negative effects on her in ways that she doesn't.

 

Tara

 

This is a personality thing, ime. My schooler is a cook, eats mostly vegetarian. He packs his own lunch daily (sometimes I do) and he does not eat junk. He won't even eat McDonald's. So, some kids are good at knowing what their bodies need and some kids aren't. I don't see it as a school issue, really. I mean, it can be, since schools don't always have great food available, but a lot of kids are very health conscious. PETA is something that interests some kids here. (Very liberal area of MA). He attends a UU summer camp where they have a lot of vegetarians and a vegan food plan. He's on the omni plan, but loves the veggie food. I made pasta with tempeh the other day and he said, 'I love that stuff. Is it the spicy one?" Which I think is sort of funny coming out of a 16 yr old omni boy.

 

One of my hsers has low blood sugar and she knows she needs to graze and stay in protein. My youngest, who has never been to school, is a bit more drawn to sugar. Not in excess, but she is always wondering what she can bake. :)

Edited February 9, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Tea Time]

Mmmm ... maybe.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of being able to "compete" or "keep up."

There is more to life than competition. The biggest rewards to homeschool, IMO, are about the relationship bonds within the family. Everyone is struggling to compete or keep up in the modern world, but very few have enough presence of mind of even question what, exactly, we are keeping up with.

 

For example, a homeschool kid (or anybody) who thinks they're doing just fine, and then are stunned to realize that they have to take several remedial courses in college -- and that even those are a struggle for him/her.

Remedial college courses have sprung up in legion. Why is that? Are they there to counter the explosive failure of homeschooling? No. They are there to counter the explosive failure of public schooling. If your homeschool child ended up in remedial classes that might be disappointing or frustrating, but you should realize that if you had left it to the "professionals" they may well have ended up a drop out. Academic failure is common in public education.

 

Or something even more basic -- say, someone always using a calculator, one day it dawns on them that other people they knew are able to add things in their head.

Does a public education guarantee all skills will be equally learned by everyone? Are there no children in public schools who fail to learn basic math? I see them all the time.

 

Or they think they write fine because they can jot down a sentence here and there, but it never occurred to them that other people their age were regularly writing five paragraph essays, and/or research papers.

Most homeschoolers feel like they are failing to teach writing. It is a complex skill. I certainly worried about it. But I worried about it just as much for the brief time my child was in public school. Again, public education takes our taxpayer money and guarantees nothing in return. If your child has problems, you are pretty likely to get the message that it is your fault somehow and that the school is "not responsible" anyway. We hope for good outcomes, some receive, but nothing is certain.

 

I'm not saying any of that has ever happened to homeschooled kids. I'm just trying to give more details of the kinds of things I mean.

 

I know what it feels like to think you're doing well and working hard, and then be stunned when you walk into a situation and are way behind everybody else. It's not fun, and it's not pretty.

 

OP

It is not fun or pretty if it happens to a public schooled child either. In fact, if it does happen to a child in public school, then they are far more likely to be mocked, shunned, and bullied. Talk about insult to injury.

 

But the parental guilt for academic failure? Well, I think caring parents will blame themselves no matter what they are doing. And there are some people who will never accept the blame no matter what they are doing.

[angela in ohio]

But its *my* definition, lol! Homeschooling is not 'hey, lets yank the kid out so I don't have to wake up early to get him on the bus, he can watch cartoons all day', etc. We all agree that's not homeschooling its being irresponsible, and not one of us would tell a parent like that to keep on, its superior to public education! Indeed, I think that if any of us were confronted with a case that was clearly, without a doubt, educational neglect, we would do something about it.

 

 

Not all agree that that is not homeschooling. In fact, many homeschoolers would say that you are just being elitist and hyper-focused on academics if you said that. They would also say that this child would still do better than a public school child. I spent a few years in just such a homeschool group (yeah, they LOVED me! :glare:)

[Impish]

Not all agree that that is not homeschooling. In fact, many homeschoolers would say that you are just being elitist and hyper-focused on academics if you said that. They would also say that this child would still do better than a public school child. I spent a few years in just such a homeschool group (yeah, they LOVED me! :glare:)

:svengo:Ensuring the child was learning is being elitist? Oh wow...I've never been called that before.

 

I'm an elitist pig!! *struts proudly* w00t!!

 

Oh and for whoever made the comment about calculators...they are demanded in ps here, starting in 4th grade. Diva is doing Saxon 6/7, and has yet to be allowed to use one. I find that to be true with the homeschooling parents I personally know...not a calculator to be found.

 

Except for the Moms checking the work

[prairie rose]

I was thinking more along the lines of being able to "compete" or "keep up."

 

Not everyone finds the public schools to be something worthy of keeping up with. Yes, some homeschoolers would probably get more of an education in ps but there are also many who far exceed what the schools teach and could run circles around their ps peers.

 

For example, a homeschool kid (or anybody) who thinks they're doing just fine, and then are stunned to realize that they have to take several remedial courses in college -- and that even those are a struggle for him/her.

 

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses no matter how they are schooled. Lots of people need to brush up on or polish their basic skills before starting college level work. It has nothing to do with intelligence or what they were or were not taught in high school. We are learning all our lives, not just up to the age of 18 or 24 or whatever arbitrary age you graduate from school. I don't see remedial courses as a bad thing. Not everyone is ready to learn the same skills at the same age. If they were, a) the ps "one-size-fits-all" apporach would work for everyone and b) there would be no need for a-level classes, honors, AP and other such leveling systems of the same subject matter in high school.

 

 

I know what it feels like to think you're doing well and working hard, and then be stunned when you walk into a situation and are way behind everybody else. It's not fun, and it's not pretty.

 

In this situation, I think I would have to step back and figure out why I was so stunned to find this out. Even though I don't try to compete with the ps, I do know what they are up to for the most part regarding the grades I'm currently teaching. I know if we are behind or ahead or just on a completely different track. If we are behind, I know why we are behind. Some areas are just weak spots that they would be preforming poorly no matter what schooling situation we are in. Some areas we are behind because I don't think we need 13 years of relearning the same thing and I'm waiting a little while to just teach it all in one shot using the power of one-on-one instruction. Some things we are proactively working on because we let that area slide while we worked on another skill so now we are trying to bring that area that we let slide up to par. Have you taken a hard look at why you were so stunned and done something about it? That would be my suggested first step. ;)

 

 

Well, sure. Most kids love candy and junk food, too, but a steady diet of it is not good for them.

 

My dd is in 9th grade. She loves the social environment of school. I see its negative impacts on her in ways she doesn't. She also loves to eat a carb-heavy, empty-calorie diet. I see its negative effects on her in ways that she doesn't.

 

Tara

 

Oh my goodness, thank you so much Tara, I now have my standard answer for the socialization questions about my very social dd. You have put into words what I have been trying to say about my little social butterfly for years. She would love the social atmosphere of ps school....too the point of her missing the whole point of school...the academics! By homeschooling, I'm able to separate the academics and the socialization so they both get the attention they need. ;)

[Jenny in GA]

 

Remedial college courses have sprung up in legion. Why is that? Are they there to counter the explosive failure of homeschooling? No. They are there to counter the explosive failure of public schooling. If your homeschool child ended up in remedial classes that might be disappointing or frustrating, but you should realize that if you had left it to the "professionals" they may well have ended up a drop out. Academic failure is common in public education.

 

 

Does a public education guarantee all skills will be equally learned by everyone? Are there no children in public schools who fail to learn basic math? I see them all the time.

 

 

It is not fun or pretty if it happens to a public schooled child either. In fact, if it does happen to a child in public school, then they are far more likely to be mocked, shunned, and bullied. Talk about insult to injury.

 

 

I just wanted to clarify something; maybe I am not making myself clear.

 

I am not saying that calculators, remedial classes, etc, are the result of homeschooling, or more likely to happen to homeschooled kids.

 

I was trying to give some examples of what "behind" or "not keeping up" might look like -- to anybody, and why that might be an upsetting, disappointing, or surprising thing.

 

And my point was that if one had the idea that "anything was better than public school," something like that could be a disappointing result.

 

When I said that I had experience with being way behind, and how it was not fun or pretty ... well, that was an experience that had nothing to do with homeschooling.

[Jenny in GA]

Not everyone finds the public schools to be something worthy of keeping up with.

 

I'm not talking about keeping up with public schools; I'm talking about "keeping up" as a young adult, in college, in a job (part or full-time), in life in general.

[Rosy]

1) Do you agree with that statement (okay, you can add "almost always" if that helps!)

 

Almost always? Yes, at least in the K-8 grades. Only because I think that *in general* a parent who is invested in her child's education will have a decent ps experience but probably a good homeschool experience. A parent who isn't invested won't be able to give her kids a good education, regardless of the venue. But I think it's rare that a parent who truly cares about her kids' education and has the resources to work with them at home won't do a better job than the public schools. One on one attention from a caring, attentive parent will always be better with young kids than the classroom model.

 

I can't say with high school, since I'm not there yet, but again I think that a parent who is committed to her child's education will move mountains to make sure he/she has the best possible resources available to him/her.

 

2) Do you think many homeschoolers agree with and promote that statement as being true, and if so, do you think it sometimes cause harm?

 

I don't think it's this mindset in and of itself that causes harm, I think it's the people who don't respond to others with an attitude of humility or who take a lazy approach to "education" because "hey, they're doing better than they would in school". Also, I think the antagonism between the different venues is unhealthy...but I think that goes both ways.

[prairie rose]

I'm not talking about keeping up with public schools; I'm talking about "keeping up" as a young adult, in college, in a job (part or full-time), in life in general.

 

Keeping up with whom or what? In college and young adulthood, everyone is going in different directions, their own direction. What is your basis for comparison? Success is measured differently by different people. I'm surely not trying to keep up with anyone and I feel I'm doing just fine in life. I don't compare myself to anyone or anything because it's a flawed comparison, no one else has my circumstances or my strengths and weaknesses. I just assumed you were talking about public school because the quote referenced in the post I was replying to pertained to ps and the subject of the thread was "Is homeschool always better" and again since ps school is usually the other option I assumed you meant ps. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning and to answer your original question, no, homeschool is not inherently better just as ps is not inherently bad. There are horror stories and success stories on both sides of the fence. They are simply different ways of achieving the same end and the responsibility lies in the teacher and students to make the best of either situation. ;)

[Haiku]

I think that for the majority of kids, homeschooling is better than what they'd get in the public schools. For a minority of kids, school is better than what they'd get from homeschooling.

 

Tara

[Jenny in GA]

Keeping up with whom or what?

 

Keeping up with whatever it is that you're wanting to do.

 

If going to college is important to you, it would be hard to keep up if you never learned how to write a coherent paragraph.

 

It would possibly be hard to keep up in a lot of things, if you struggled with counting change and other basic math skills.

 

It would be hard to keep up with becoming a wife and mother if you never learned how to laundry, cook, or mop a floor.

[Jenny in GA]

 

In this situation, I think I would have to step back and figure out why I was so stunned to find this out.

 

 

Have you taken a hard look at why you were so stunned and done something about it? That would be my suggested first step. ;)

 

 

The reason I was stunned (I am not talking about a homeschooling situation) is simple: I was getting good grades, graduated at the top of my class, and was considered a top student by others. I strove to do well and thought I was.

 

When I left that environment, I was stunned, embarrassed beyond belief, and felt like my dreams were shattered when I found out that I was way behind the norm.

 

I was flat-out told by faculty that I was "behind." I was accepted, but placed on probation. I had to take a remedial class in every area. One of the remedial classes was so hard for me that I couldn't even keep up with it. I remember sitting there with a blank paper, and/or stammering when the teacher asked what I put ... because I had put nothing.

 

As far as "doing something about it" ... well, by then it was too late. I couldn't accomplish, in a week or a month, what everyone else there had been working at for years. I couldn't ask the faculty to give me private tutoring or slow the class down to teach me what I should have known, but didn't.

 

 

Let me clarify again, because my mind and/or this thread it taking all kinds of twists and turns, and I may well be confusing people.

 

This example above has nothing to do with homeschooling, and I'm not saying that homeschooled kids are more likely to need remedial classes.

 

I guess my original point was to wonder if some homeschoolers think they're kids are doing really well ... but, like similar to my non-homeschooled experience, they don't know what the expectations "out there" are. And then maybe they will have a rude awakening similar to the one I had.

 

I'm also curious if anyone experienced exactly that, or knows a homeschooler who did ... and if so, what exactly was the lacking area, and why do you think it got missed? How could that have been avoided?

 

OP

[prairie rose]

Keeping up with whatever it is that you're wanting to do.

 

If going to college is important to you, it would be hard to keep up if you never learned how to write a coherent paragraph.

 

But just because you never learned doesn't mean you can't learn now. There are lots of college kids who can't write a coherent paragraph. That's why there are remedial classes and tutoring. If going to college was important to you and you couldn't write a paragraph then I would think it would be also important to you to learn these skills. I guess I'm not seeing how this would keep you from doing what you want to do. It's a hurdle for sure but nothing that can't be overcome. I've worked with many college kids in this exact situation. Those who wanted to succeed did succeed.

 

It would possibly be hard to keep up in a lot of things, if you struggled with counting change and other basic math skills.

 

Yes it is but people do it. Probably more than you realize. Many people, if they just cannot grasp basic math because of LD or other things come up with other ways of compensating.

 

It would be hard to keep up with becoming a wife and mother if you never learned how to laundry, cook, or mop a floor.

 

I was never taught how to do any of these things as a child. They were all done for me. I struggled tremendously as a new wife and mom. But I found friends willing to teach me, learned by trial and error, I still struggle sometimes, I may never be a perfect wife hence the reason I don't compare myself to people who do these things with ease. What would be the point? They don't have my circumstances and I don't have theirs. I'm doing the best I can and learning all the time but I don't feel as though I "can't keep up". Who am I suppose to be keeping up with anyways?

[Jenny in GA]

[quote=prairie rose;1485261

 

 

 

I was never taught how to do any of these things as a child. They were all done for me. I struggled tremendously as a new wife and mom.

 

Yes. That's exactly my point.

[Tidbits of Learning]

A long time ago, I encouraged one of those questionable families to which I refer in my post above to homeschool before I completely understood their situation. I do think it caused harm. And I feel horrible about it. I refrain from that kind of advice now.

 

I am in this situation now and feel terrible that I encouraged someone to homeschool that is a fly by the seat of your pants, gung-ho about one thing this minute and something else the next person. So for her homeschooling was a gung-ho all into thing for only about 3 months before she moved on to her next gung-ho thing.

I feel horribly guilty.

[prairie rose]

Yes. That's exactly my point.

 

I think I'm still struggling to understand your point. Yes, I struggled with domestic things, it was an obstacle to overcome but I did learn how to do these things, not as a child but as an adult but I still learned them. I can do them now as well as anyone else. I do struggle with falling into old habits sometimes but who doesn't? I guess what I'm asking is, what exactly is the point that I illustrated with my example?