Please tell me I can do this!!!!! my 8.5 yr old dd has been...

[hmschoolmom22]

backtalking and acting up for far too long....and yesterday, I decided ENOUGH!! it's now or never...this can not go on any longer...she can be the funniest, sweetest child and yet, she totally does not get that she is 8 yrs old and that she is a child, not an adult. She can not stand to be told no!! she will argue something to death!! I'm hoping like crazy that her persistance will one day benefit her but for now, it's no longer tolerated!

 

She just got out of a 15 minute time out - for backtalking - it started out as 8 minutes but she wouldn't let it lie...just kept telling me, "I am NOT going to time out, you can't make me" and "I will only have time out in MY room, NOT on the stairs"....so every time she said something, I added another minute until she got up to 15 mins!

 

Now, she just poked her head in here and informed that she is not talking to me anymore today because I am a very mean mommy and that I have upset her feelings and that she has done nothing wrong.

 

It kills me! I honestly believe that she truly doesn't see what she's doing is disrespectful...she always asks why she's in trouble, what did she do wrong? and when I tell her(you sassed me, you were rude, you would not follow direction, you weren't listening, etc..)she says "BUT I AM LISTENING!!" or "I WAS NOT BEING RUDE!!!!"

 

Please, tell me that just a few days of me putting the hammer down will help this situation, it's only been a day and a half and I'm exhausted! and gosh knows, my poor 12 yr old...she keeps plugging her ears and going outside due to younger dd screaming her head off while in time out! I mean blood curdling(sp)screaming at the top of her lungs for over 7 minutes - I know her throat has got to be killing her!

 

thanks for listening!:bigear:

[Melinda]

I know my kids are younger, but 1-2-3, Magic sounds like it would work in your house.

[NorthwestMom]

You can do it! Don't let her dominate you on this. It will be easier to get it over with now, not when she is older. I think requiring her to be respectful will help her in all her social interactions.

[laurad1125]

:grouphug:

 

All I can say is that we struggled with similar issues with ds10 and he's really good about that stuff now. I don't know whether what we did helped or not. he may have just grown out of it?? :confused:

 

We at the same point with ds6 and are doing the toughness thing for him too. I'm still not convinced it will work but we have to try something, :banghead: KWIM?

 

Along with toughness though, we make sure our kids feel connected to us as well. We are extra loving at times when they aren't misbehaving. Otherwise I fear they will perceive the toughness as parental dislike/rejection.

 

One thing that does help me is to remember that it's not my job to get my kids to like me. it's my job to raise them and teach them what they need to be healthy, functional adults. I hope and pray that the will like me along the way, but it's not a requirement.

 

Hang in there!

[hmschoolmom22]

I agree about the fact that I need to get a hold of this now!! I can NOT imagine her as a teenager!!!!!:willy_nilly:

[gevs4him]

This is probably what some mothers do not wish to hear, so please don't take offence. But, I would put a little drop of liquid soap in her mouth. If she wishes to talk unkind to you and then scream because you correct she needs a little more than a time out ( of, course you could always join your other daughter outside and have a good time with her to avoid listening to the screams). I know this is an old fashioned discipline, but hey it usually does work. ( I did have to use this method with our daughter only twice) And remember it took her sometime to get disrespectful and it will take sometime to overcome it. Now our son taking away his favorite things(desert, t.v., wii,and computer time, swimming) puts him back in line. Praying for your strength. I know it is quite difficult, but you will thank yourself in the end.

Lisa

wife to one awesome man for 23 years

mother to dd 18 and ds 6

[*********]

Um, wow.

 

That sounds exhausting. :grouphug:

 

My boys are 3 and 6, so what do I know. :001_smile: But, here's my two cents anyway...

 

The blood curdling screaming for 7 minutes straight would not be allowed in our house. In fact, there is a 'no screaming in the house' rule here. If what you are doing is causing you to scream (say, for example, ds6 is tickling ds3 and ds3 is screaming) you must stop when mommy says stop. Now, in a perfect world, they wouldn't scream inside at all, except for, you know, an emergency or something. But they do scream. And when they do, if they don't stop after the first warning, they are redirected to another activity that stops the screaming.

 

But, that's not what's going on with you. What you have is 8 year old daughter who's screaming in defiance. Right? She's screaming as loud as she can because she's in time out? Ugh. I have never had that happen. But, it seems to me like she just flat out does not respect your authority. I mean, if my ds6 screamed for any length of time because I put him in time out, there would be more severe consequences. In our house, that may include a longer time out, losing a priveledge, or even a spank. (I understand not everyone spanks, so maybe it's something else in your house.) Either way, ds6 knows better than to even try it. 'Cause it's just never been allowed. It's just not even on his radar. I dunno; maybe my boys are easy? I do know that I feel I spend a LOT of time training them; talking, explaining, role-playing. And not when they're 'in trouble', either. Other times, when things are good, and calm. We talk about behaviour, expctations, consequences. All from the framework of our core Christian beliefs. For us, everything comes down to 'what does the Lord what us to do/be/act like/say, etc.'

 

I suspect you're right, and that it will get easier as you stay consistent. I know when there's an area of one of my boy's behavior that I've let go to far, it takes a few days of consistent discipline to turn things around. And, those few days can be really, really hard.

 

Of course, as I suspect we all know, it's easier not to let them get out of hand in the first place. Not trying to add insult/guilt/whatever to your already hard situation. Just a friendly reminder to all of us, myself included, that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

:grouphug: to you, you'll make it through. And your dd will be better for it.

[Guest lahmeh]

Oh you're scaring me! My daughter is almost 8. We have the opposite problem here sometimes. When my dd gets mad she gets really whiny and cries until she coughs and almost throws up. Yesterday her brother was being mean to her (at lease she thought so) so she packed her suitcase and headed for the door to go live with another family that didn't have a mean brother! :crying: Thank goodness she knows better than to open the door and head out! I feel for you and really hope things get better soon! :grouphug:

[gr8tcook]

have you tried reading "you can't make me" by cynthia Tobias? it might help. also is this all the time or worse sometimes? she may actually be hormonal (I know Yikes) which is no excuse but you can help her navigate that.

[Dirtroad]

It is tough when you don't have something stern to follow up with. Hopefully you can get some great advice here.

 

A friend of mine uses ivory soap for potty mouth & very disrespectful talk. It is gross but does NO harm. She said be sure it is Wet, on the tongue and leave a little in the molars to remind them for a bit.

[Dirtroad]

You can also sit and hold her, but that is controversial to many who do not believe in physical restraint. Just let her go until she is exhausted.

 

Spanking is used by some.

 

Another idea, is agree to her going to HER room... but empty it! Leave the bed frame mattress with sheet & blanket (nothing cute). Remove all entertainment (even picture & cutsie stuff).... remove clothing if needed (just leave 2-3 day supply in ONE drawer in the floor).

 

She earns back her stuff with her mouth and attitute improvements.

[Aubrey]

I have found that sometimes my 8yo is disrespectful because he doesn't know the social cues that people follow. Iow, he hears things in conversations, & he repeats them at inappropriate times. He teases when he should be serious, or he is serious when everyone else is joking.

 

It's easy to get mad w/out remembering that some of these things haven't been taught. When I do remember, I teach them firmly, through gritted teeth, but it's a little different (I think) from outright defiance. It sounds like you might be dealing w/ a combination, so hopefully this helps.

[Adrianne]

Good for you Lisa for dealing with this. :grouphug: to you. Disciplining your child is very hard. Keep it up! It may take a while but it will work and she will be better for it.

 

Here we do time outs sometimes but for willful disobedience we spank. For screaming like that - I would spank her and put her in her room. Give her a hug, tell her you love her and want whats best for her but she cannot act this way. Don't spank when your angry, it must be controlled discipline.

[Joanne]

Lisa,

 

Are you "just venting" or did you want advice?

[Carrie12345]

I know my kids are younger, but 1-2-3, Magic sounds like it would work in your house.

 

:iagree: 1-2-3 Magic is (imo) excellent for shutting down the back-talk. I have 3 of those kids and, while we're still in the 1-2-3 honeymoon stage, things are very peaceful right now!

[Garga]

Lisa,

 

Are you "just venting"; or did you want advice?

 

Right. I was wondering that, too. Because changing this behavior in your daughter will take a bit of work. And time-outs are probably one of the last things I'd do. I'd use other methods first before punishment methods.

 

Oh, I might as well say what's on the top of my head for now:

 

First: spend lots and lots of time together hugging her and being sweet with her.

 

Second: tell her when you both are calm and happy that you need to teach her some new things: new ways of being polite, etc, now that she's older.

 

Third: as soon as she does/says something you don't want her to say/do, point it out calmly that these are one of those times you talked about.

 

Fourth: re-do whatever the incorrect behavior was, the correct way. For example if she said, "Yeah, whatever," tell her that now she needs to say, "Ok, mom." And then have her say "Ok, mom" in a nice tone of voice.

 

Fifth: Usually if my kids are really acting out, I try to keep them near me until they calm down. I find that time-outs just gives them more time to vilify me and stew in their anger. But if I have them be right next to me in whatever I'm doing, then they start to calm down faster.

 

If spending gobs and gobs of time together, if preparing her for your new standards, if pointing out when she's missing the standard, and if re-doing the behavior don't work...THEN you might get into the punishments. Again, time-out probably won't work. But taking away a privilege might.

 

Throughout all this it will all fall apart if you don't stay completely calm.

 

Oh, another thing about the arguing. Tell her to do something. Once you're sure she heard it and starts arguing, don't say another word defending your point (or your instruction, etc). She's been told what to do. You don't need to explain beyond that. Move to step three above if she starts to argue. Oh, that is long and rambling and I hope I made sense and there is a nugget in there to help.

[Danestress]

What I always said to me mini-lawyer was something like this:

 

Okay, I hear that you don't think that was rude. I think you are having some trouble understanding what sounds rude to most other people, and more importantly, what sounds rude to ME. See, what you think is rude may be different from what I think is rude, but my name is on the mortgage, so I win that particular battle.

 

We need to do some training so that you can more perfectly understand what my preferences are for tone of voice and language. So for a few weeks, I am going to be very very picky about how you speak to me. I am going to expect absolutely lovely behavior from you, and if I don't get it, you are going to have a time out every single time. Within a few weeks, I promise, you will have a clearer understanding of what I expect and what I think is rude.

 

............

 

But here's the deal. You have to be *perfect* yourself in how you speak to your spouse and kids. If you are going to be demanding of her, you just also model it for her. I'm not saying you don't, but I just came back from a public setting in which a mother (who I know well and like and think is a very good and loving Mom) was speaking in such an aggressive way to her son, and all I could think was that her daughter was standing there listening and learning how women should sound. Ugh.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I have seen 1-2-3 magic work because the kiddo knows not to get to 3. And it so allows mom not to be emotional. But honestly, except with easy kids, you still get the first two times of acting up. I REALLY can't stand that myself. Also, they "get away with it" in a way because it came out and they got to choose punishment.

 

BUT, that may be a good start in a case where an 8yo carries on to the point of adding 7 extra minutes! And it's good for the mom who wants to give a warning (I'm NOT a warning type mom).

 

But a 2nd step may be to have her say it appropriately. Now, I did give my kids a "take two," which basically meant, "you have 2 seconds to restate yourself or to decide to take some time for yourself until you CAN restate yourself" (now you know why we said "take two" or held up 2 fingers...cuz the other way is too wordy).

 

Anyway, I would stop an attitude or backtalk in the first word or two. They are NOT going to get out the whole statement. It is perfectly okay to have certain thoughts or feelings, but it is NOT okay to be disrespectful.

 

Another thing I would do with a child who is in the bad habit of backtalking is to tell them what the new acceptable answer to me is and they are to use ONLY that until after compliance each time until that habit is broken. Then we'll work our way back up to them being able to distinguish appropriately when to just comply or when it's okay to ask for clarification, consideration, etc.

 

But I'm a tough mom. I NEVER choose punishment instead of something being done right. But I also started when my kids were REALLY young. Sometimes, when people start later, they need a "time out step" inbetween just to get from out of control to controlled to strong discipline.

 

JMO of course, and YMMV :D

 

ETA: I would not use physical punishment, especially with a child of 8 or older, because I would NOT want to teach her to submit to such things. I think its is very problematic to teach kids, maybe esp girls, to submit to someone putting something in their mouths, touch them in ANY way where a bathing suit would cover, etc. I also don't want to teach my kids that it is okay for some people to disrespect the bodies of other people and the wishes of the people whose body it is. I REALLY have an issue with that.

 

I really think it is best to teach kids to do it right and then to insist they practice the skill you taught them. Punishing usually is used when parents don't teach effectively or instill that a child must follow through on what they were taught. If you teach and follow through, punishment, especially to the point of being disrespectful, won't be compelling for you to use.

Edited July 9, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[katilac]

Sorry, but I'm sure it's going to take more than a few days! Hang tough, though, you'll get there.

 

I gotta say, an 8-yr-old who screamed in time-out would definitely get a further consequence in my house, such as losing screen time or snack.

 

What I would consider for a very argumentive child, who sounds like she knows EXACTLY how to wind you up, is a non-verbal method of handing out consequences. A long time ago, someone on here posted a picture of a 'ladder' of privileges; they drew it on a whiteboard, and each 'step' was a privilege such as screen time, dessert, riding their bike, playdates, and so forth. When the child misbehaved, a step of the ladder would be erased.

 

I think this might work very well with your daughter. Explain ahead of time what behaviors get a warning, and what behaviors mean immediate loss of privilege (I'd put screaming at the top of that list, lol). Focus on just one or two behaviors at a time - - my first ones would be telling a parent no (such as when she said she wasn't going in time out) and screaming.

 

When she defies you or dh, just walk over to the board and erase a privilege. No discussion. At this point, don't waste time worrying if she understands or agrees with you, or if she's sulking and pouting. As long as she obeys and isn't screaming or actively rude, I would ignore stomping of feet and muttering under her breath. (For now, not forever.)

 

Your main job in this is to be consistent, and to refuse to engage in discussions or drama. I would have the discussion ONE TIME about how it's up to the parent to decide if a child is listening, obeying or being disrespectul. Talk about it when you explain the system of behavior and consequences, but do NOT talk about it in the midst of her disagreeing with you.

 

With this child, I would focus more on losing priviliges that are important to her, rather than using time-out. A 15-minute time-out is nothing, imo, to an 8-yr-old. It has no substantial effect on her day, and it's so short that I'm sure all she does is fume and remain self-righteous for a quarter of an hour, then she just goes her merry little way. If you want to use some type of grounding/time-out procedure, you need to be looking at an hour of time minimum - - she has to have enough time to get bored and wish she weren't grounded, kwim? But I'd go with losing priviliges.

[EarleneW]

I hear you. Another book recommendation is "Have a New Kid by Friday". Great book!

[Karen sn]

"Just keep disciplining, just keep disciplining, just keep...."

(Said to the tune of Dori in Finding Nemo "just keep swimming...").

[gingersmom]

Your problem is not going to be solved by one time out. When things calm down I would sit her down and tell her what the house rules are. And when she acts disrespectful, etc. that first A is going to be taken away, then B, then C.

Consistency on your part is the key.

 

My children know if I say you are losing television/computer for the next day, or two days I mean it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

If I take your OP at face value then you've been letting this go for 8 and a half years. It may take many months of reinforcing the correct behavior for it to "stick" - and even then she will probably test you from time to time to see if you really mean it this time. That's ok - others of us have had to do this kind of thing too. But you have to decide - do you really mean to stick to it? And if you fail (as many of us have done too) are you willing to get back on your horse and keep reinforcing the rules again?

[RegularMom]

Yes, I agree. With 1-2-3 Magic, the time out clock doesn't even begin ticking until the child is quiet in the timeout. That would help nip the screaming in the bud.

 

My older dd went through a screaming/sobbing phase in her timeouts. We told her that she'd have to stay in the timeout until she was quiet for 5 minutes. There were only a few timeouts that took longer than her required time. Now (at 8.5) she just goes to her timeout for 8 minutes. And it's a rare day when she actually ends up in a timeout anymore.

[Mrs Mungo]

Your problem is not going to be solved by one time out. When things calm down I would sit her down and tell her what the house rules are.

 

I agree with this.

 

I will also say that sometimes out of control behavior for my kids is sometimes linked to what they have eaten and how much exercise they've had. You *cannot* feed my middle daughter carbs for breakfast or she acts just like this. Her brain ticks too fast or something and she cannot separate her feelings from what she needs to do. Making sure she gets protein for breakfast and some outside exercise every day both help a great deal.

 

I would also have a practice session with her explaining what answers *are* acceptable. You may also teach her an acceptable, respectful way to disagree or request that you change your mind. Role playing can really help. Do it with you playing the the mom and again with her playing the mom. Model the difference between respectful and disrespectful.

 

Unacceptable argument/whining/etc:

Mom: "I need to you to make your bed and tidy your floor, please."

Child: "BUT MOOOOOOOOM, I'm playing a game!!! I'll do it later!"

 

Acceptable:

Child: "I'm at a spot in my game where I cannot save, can I please have 5 minutes to finish this part up?"

 

However, you should only have to do this once.

 

I don't think time-outs work that well with kids of this age. I make mine do push-ups and/or run laps around the park in front of our house.

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

Um, wow.

 

That sounds exhausting.

 

My boys are 3 and 6, so what do I know.

 

The blood curdling screaming for 7 minutes straight would not be allowed in our house. In fact, there is a 'no screaming in the house' rule here.

 

I'm sorry but I am just :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:!

 

If I only had my two boys, I might be shocked by 7 straight minutes of blood-curdling screaming also. But I have a 4 year old, very dramatic daughter. The only way to enforce a no screaming rule here would be duct tape and I'm pretty sure that would be considered abusive. :tongue_smilie:

 

Obviously, there are exceptions to the rule but girls are just so very different. I actually have a friend who used to call me when dd4 was a toddler in hopes of hearing her having a screaming tantrum in the background because she was almost convinced that her daughter of the same age might be autistic because she screamed so much. Girls. Man, oh man. I'm worried about the teen years too...all that drama. Even ds3 gives dd4 odd looks when she has a screaming fit. I'm working on it...hard, but it's definitely different. Definitely.

 

To the OP, I think the best advice here has been to talk in advance about acceptable reactions. You might even give her some line-by-line examples of how what she says sounds rude because she's not hearing herself the same way you are. At the same time this high-discipline, weed-out-this-behavior period is going on, I would be giving extra hugs and cuddles along with extra opportunities for her to behave nicely by asking things that are easy for her. Lavishly praise and hug (but don't be cheesy or condescending--she's old enough to see right through that!) for things done well or words calmly stated and be firm but calm when carrying through with a punishment for overreactions or rudeness. You can do this! Good for you for trying to eradicate the behavior now. As I seem to say almost daily now, "This was NOT in the brochure!" :D

[Starr]

I always love it when they say they didn't know they were being rude or whatever. I finally say you will begin to know after you sit on the stairs a few more times. :lol: This is hard work. Don't give up and it will get better. If they know you are serious now it's much easier as they get older. Ask me how I know? :tongue_smilie:

[lighthouseacademy]

I have NEVER EVER allowed the backtalk... and yet it continues... so I am not sure that a few days will do it. However, I have been using a bit of love and logic and not getting into it. The back talk has gotten MUCH better... although my son did call me a "devil" today because I told him if he cleaned the room by shoving everything in the closet I would put it back on the floor to be cleaned again. "Devil" seems to be his version of "meanest mommy in the world" most days.

[KrissiK]

In one of our foster care continuing ed. classes the instructor told us to never engage our children in an argument. Another thing she told us is in a confrontation to use the one or more of the following phrases:

 

"I understand...."

"Nevertheless..."

"I'm sorry...."

"It might be so...."

 

there was another one, I can't remember it. We've been trying to remember to do that with our kids, even though they're pretty young. Keeps us from getting down in the dirt with them. My oldest is one who will argue a point to death, pass blame, play the victim, try to get off on a technicality and then, when all else fails and he's headed toward time out - play the "this is soooooo unfair" card.

[lighthouseacademy]

In one of our foster care continuing ed. classes the instructor told us to never engage our children in an argument. Another thing she told us is in a confrontation to use the one or more of the following phrases:

 

"I understand...."

"Nevertheless..."

"I'm sorry...."

"It might be so...."

 

there was another one, I can't remember it. We've been trying to remember to do that with our kids, even though they're pretty young. Keeps us from getting down in the dirt with them. My oldest is one who will argue a point to death, pass blame, play the victim, try to get off on a technicality and then, when all else fails and he's headed toward time out - play the "this is soooooo unfair" card.

 

AMEN! That comes from Love and Logic... Another phrase is, "Nice try..." and another is "That is so sad.." (these are said with empathy not sarcastically)

Love and Logic says, Never argue with a child who is drunk on power... Thus the don't engage or argue.

 

 

When I posted before, my son had just called me devil because I told him that he needed to clean the room properly instead of shoving the junk. He began to argue and I just calmly restated the requirement, told him I wouldn't be spoken to that way and closed the door. I DID NOT engage (something I used to do). He went and finished cleaning properly. There are other times when I calmly tell him, "When you can speak to me in an appropriate manner, I will listen." or "You may leave the room until you can talk to me appropriately. I will not listen to this kind of talk." Again- don't engage. My son had become rather verbally abusive. "Devil," for me, is a HUGE step towards more respect. I know he is angry and doesn't have the maturity to express it appropriately- hence the explicative (we don't swear in our house), but those outbursts are getting better.

[hmschoolmom22]

thank you everyone!!! your words of wisdom and encouragement have been taken to heart and I did read every reply.

 

My dd ended up going to her room(her choice)after lunch and asked to be left alone...needless to say, she fell asleep(she NEVER naps!)and slept for almost 2 hours! she woke up, apologized to me and we hugged for a long time...

 

I plan on sticking to my new program and not letting "little things" slip, I know it will take time and lots of patience on my part.

 

Thanks for being here, this board is a life saver!

[gardening momma]

Another idea, is agree to her going to HER room... but empty it! Leave the bed frame mattress with sheet & blanket (nothing cute). Remove all entertainment (even picture & cutsie stuff).... remove clothing if needed (just leave 2-3 day supply in ONE drawer in the floor).

We just did this with dd5. I was reading Raising Godly Tomatoes www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com and was trying to follow the method of having her stand with her nose at the wall. That was exausting, as she refused, and according to the book I was supposed to outlast her, but it was tiring! I needed a break so we pretty much emptied her room. She was left with her bed, sheets, dresser (I considered taking that out too, concerned she'd throw her clothes out of the drawers), empty bookcase, and the easy chair we already had in there. I took out all toys, books, even shoes from the shoe holder in her closet. She didn't get her blankets and pillow back until bedtime. Now we've decided that she needs quiet time everyday when dd3 has her nap. It was a fight for a few days, but it's much better now. And if she misbehaves, it's easier to take more stuff out of her room, since there's not a whole lot left. Her room is so much cleaner now! It's nice!

Edited July 10, 2009 by gardening momma

[gardening momma]

Here's a question for any/all of you...what do you do when your child is hitting or kicking you while you're trying to correct them? (besides fending them off--a 5.5 yr old's hits/kicks really hurt!)

[Pamela H in Texas]

Gardening Momma.....

 

You don't allow it to actually happen as extinction happens when they can't make contact. You teach them how to express themselves appropriately so they don't have to turn to such behavior.

 

But you may also consider if you're provoking the child to wrath rather than disciplining (guiding/teaching) appropriately. It is a common problem. Generally, parents escalate things to degrees they can't control. This is more common with tougher kiddos. Mom starts with a swat on the hand or a 2 minute time out and keeps escalating the situation (holding them in time out, taking everything from their room, hitting them with objects, yelling, lecturing, etc). The BEST thing to do would be to step back, especially if you're finding yourself punishing a couple times per month or more. If you will focus on DISCIPLINING (teaching/guiding), you'll not keep escalating to unweildly proportions and won't feel compelled to punish so much.

 

Now, I'm saying all this because of these last two posts. First, you asked and second, you have already escalated things SO much and your oldest is FIVE. What punishments will you possibly add when she's 6? 10? 15?

 

I think there are some GREAT things on the Godly Tomatoes website, btw. I agree with a lot of the things she talks about like connection and supervising and staying on top of things and being consistent. Unfortunately, with her (and the Pearls, for example), the GOOD discipline gets overshadowed by the other stuff. It happens to the parents (what else can I do to this child when I'm already punishing so much?) and it happens to the kid (she focuses on the punishment rather than learning from the good strong teaching).

 

BTW, I did similarly for a short time. On a message board, someone suggested that I could keep the good stuff and drop the punishment and get further. That someone was very wise. She gave me a few scriptures to consider as well as a website or two (one was the gentle christian website). I dropped the punishment and beefed up the discipline (I had an extremely challenging child) and things started going the right direction. No longer was discipline being overshadowed by punishment for either my children or me. I got better and better at disciplining and they learned more from the discipline because they weren't focused on the issues of punishment.

 

I hope this helps a little. I honestly want to encourage you to take all the positive discipline ideas you can get (from wherever). You don't have to decide to quit punishing. You naturally will punish less if you learn to discipline well.

[gardening momma]

So what would I do if I tell her to do something and she flat out says "NO"? The Godly Tomatoes site would say to have her stand at the wall, which she refuses. It recommends against time outs. It gives careful advice for those who spank, so it's not done in anger.

[Mommyof4ks]

thank you everyone!!! your words of wisdom and encouragement have been taken to heart and I did read every reply.

 

My dd ended up going to her room(her choice)after lunch and asked to be left alone...needless to say, she fell asleep(she NEVER naps!)and slept for almost 2 hours! she woke up, apologized to me and we hugged for a long time...

 

I plan on sticking to my new program and not letting "little things" slip, I know it will take time and lots of patience on my part.

 

Thanks for being here, this board is a life saver!

 

Good to hear that your new plan seems to be working. My dd is 9, and she had that same thing going on last year. The good news she calmed down and is back to my happy little girl again. She is starting to get hormonal though *sigh*.

[Lovedtodeath]

Gardening Momma.....

 

You don't allow it to actually happen as extinction happens when they can't make contact. You teach them how to express themselves appropriately so they don't have to turn to such behavior.

 

But you may also consider if you're provoking the child to wrath rather than disciplining (guiding/teaching) appropriately. It is a common problem. Generally, parents escalate things to degrees they can't control. This is more common with tougher kiddos. Mom starts with a swat on the hand or a 2 minute time out and keeps escalating the situation (holding them in time out, taking everything from their room, hitting them with objects, yelling, lecturing, etc). The BEST thing to do would be to step back, especially if you're finding yourself punishing a couple times per month or more. If you will focus on DISCIPLINING (teaching/guiding), you'll not keep escalating to unweildly proportions and won't feel compelled to punish so much.

 

Now, I'm saying all this because of these last two posts. First, you asked and second, you have already escalated things SO much and your oldest is FIVE. What punishments will you possibly add when she's 6? 10? 15?

 

I think there are some GREAT things on the Godly Tomatoes website, btw. I agree with a lot of the things she talks about like connection and supervising and staying on top of things and being consistent. Unfortunately, with her (and the Pearls, for example), the GOOD discipline gets overshadowed by the other stuff. It happens to the parents (what else can I do to this child when I'm already punishing so much?) and it happens to the kid (she focuses on the punishment rather than learning from the good strong teaching).

 

BTW, I did similarly for a short time. On a message board, someone suggested that I could keep the good stuff and drop the punishment and get further. That someone was very wise. She gave me a few scriptures to consider as well as a website or two (one was the gentle christian website). I dropped the punishment and beefed up the discipline (I had an extremely challenging child) and things started going the right direction. No longer was discipline being overshadowed by punishment for either my children or me. I got better and better at disciplining and they learned more from the discipline because they weren't focused on the issues of punishment.

 

I hope this helps a little. I honestly want to encourage you to take all the positive discipline ideas you can get (from wherever). You don't have to decide to quit punishing. You naturally will punish less if you learn to discipline well.

This sounds great, but I have absolutely no idea what you are telling gardening momma to do. Only what not to do. Which definitely doesn't work!

[Lovedtodeath]

I agree with this.

 

I will also say that sometimes out of control behavior for my kids is sometimes linked to what they have eaten and how much exercise they've had. You *cannot* feed my middle daughter carbs for breakfast or she acts just like this. Her brain ticks too fast or something and she cannot separate her feelings from what she needs to do. Making sure she gets protein for breakfast and some outside exercise every day both help a great deal.

 

I would also have a practice session with her explaining what answers *are* acceptable. You may also teach her an acceptable, respectful way to disagree or request that you change your mind. Role playing can really help. Do it with you playing the the mom and again with her playing the mom. Model the difference between respectful and disrespectful.

 

Unacceptable argument/whining/etc:

Mom: "I need to you to make your bed and tidy your floor, please."

Child: "BUT MOOOOOOOOM, I'm playing a game!!! I'll do it later!"

 

Acceptable:

Child: "I'm at a spot in my game where I cannot save, can I please have 5 minutes to finish this part up?"

 

However, you should only have to do this once.

 

I don't think time-outs work that well with kids of this age. I make mine do push-ups and/or run laps around the park in front of our house.

 

AMEN! That comes from Love and Logic... Another phrase is, "Nice try..." and another is "That is so sad.." (these are said with empathy not sarcastically)

Love and Logic says, Never argue with a child who is drunk on power... Thus the don't engage or argue.

 

 

When I posted before, my son had just called me devil because I told him that he needed to clean the room properly instead of shoving the junk. He began to argue and I just calmly restated the requirement, told him I wouldn't be spoken to that way and closed the door. I DID NOT engage (something I used to do). He went and finished cleaning properly. There are other times when I calmly tell him, "When you can speak to me in an appropriate manner, I will listen." or "You may leave the room until you can talk to me appropriately. I will not listen to this kind of talk." Again- don't engage. My son had become rather verbally abusive. "Devil," for me, is a HUGE step towards more respect. I know he is angry and doesn't have the maturity to express it appropriately- hence the explicative (we don't swear in our house), but those outbursts are getting better.

 

Just bumping these up as reminders. I have been trying GOYB parenting (and housecleaning) for only a week now. :tongue_smilie:For a long while, I was so exhausted by DD that I just stayed out of her way as much as possible.:blushing:

[katemary63]

Good for you Lisa for dealing with this. :grouphug: to you. Disciplining your child is very hard. Keep it up! It may take a while but it will work and she will be better for it.

 

Here we do time outs sometimes but for willful disobedience we spank. For screaming like that - I would spank her and put her in her room. Give her a hug, tell her you love her and want whats best for her but she cannot act this way. Don't spank when your angry, it must be controlled discipline.

 

:iagree:There's no way in h#ll I'd allow 30 seconds of screaming in defiance let alone 7 minutes. It. just. would. not. happen. I don't care what you do, but stop it and stop it quick. She has a major disrespect issue and it is very good that your are recognizing it and wanting to deal with it, but letting her scream like that - that's not dealing with it in our house. I have 4 children and not one of them would have dared scream like that. And one of them was the strong willed child from h#ll. But when he was told to sit in time out, he sat in time out. period. You have to cultivate the attitude in her that what mom says, goes, no if's, and's or but's. You must EXPECT obedience and deal with it when you don't get it - every single time. It seems like it is a shock to her that you are making her obey. That has got to change. An expectation of obedience needs to be the norm. Good luck!

[Reya]

Oh you're scaring me! My daughter is almost 8. We have the opposite problem here sometimes. When my dd gets mad she gets really whiny and cries until she coughs and almost throws up. Yesterday her brother was being mean to her (at lease she thought so) so she packed her suitcase and headed for the door to go live with another family that didn't have a mean brother! :crying: Thank goodness she knows better than to open the door and head out! I feel for you and really hope things get better soon! :grouphug:

 

I watched a kid once who could throw up on command and did when you told him to do something he didn't want to.

 

I made him clean it up the first time he forced himself to barf.

 

Never did it again.

[HSMom2One]

I loved Dirtroad's post:

 

Another idea, is agree to her going to HER room... but empty it! Leave the bed frame mattress with sheet & blanket (nothing cute). Remove all entertainment (even picture & cutsie stuff).... remove clothing if needed (just leave 2-3 day supply in ONE drawer in the floor).

 

She earns back her stuff with her mouth and attitude improvements.

 

I remember taking away all of my oldest son's belongings - stripping his room of all things considered to be a "privilege" and also taking him to the barber where his beautiful long hair was cut and buzzed. He lost all privileges for a time, but it was well worth it.

 

This son is now grown and a father of his own children, and he lived through it. In fact, he sat on the end of my bed one night when he was about to leave for the military and thanked me for what I had done when he was younger. Yes, he THANKED ME for taking away his privileges and being strict with him. During those years I was a single mother, doing my best with my three young sons, so those words meant the world to me. I'm hoping that the day will come when my youngest child, now 10, tells me thank you for being a strict parent.

 

We must stand up and take charge while they are young. I seem to remember a book by Dr. Dobson called Parenting Isn't for Cowards - or something like it. These young years are so critical for our children and we just can't afford to weanie out on them!

 

You did well, Lisa! Keep it up and you will not - WILL NOT - regret it!

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[buddhabelly]

I liked the book "Backtalk: 4 Steps to Ending Rude Behavior" http://www.amazon.com/Backtalk-Steps-Ending-Rude-Behavior/dp/068484124X/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top/175-7410060-3660907

 

It is a very simple method (and basically similar to the methods posted here). Step #4 is essential: disengage from struggle with the backtalker.

 

Good luck!

 

Julie

[Pamela H in Texas]

So what would I do if I tell her to do something and she flat out says "NO"?

 

Ignore what she SAYS. Just make it happen. "help" her comply (which works really well the earlier you do it. It does get MUCH harder as they get older, bigger, stronger). The other option is that the world stops until she complies.

 

But a lot of times you can frame things so that she just gets out of the bad habit. Like my other post, you can have her have a set phrase she says for a time. You can require compliance but then you're willing to talk about it. But even how you say it can incite compliance. There was a short time I basically gave my son 15 minutes in order to comply (unless we indicated that this was a DO IT NOW situation). Obviously you wouldn't give 15 minutes for a 3yo, but...But some kids need time to wrap their heads around many situations. Making things a game works for some people (I'm really not a fun mom though). Those sorts of things. The idea is not to tiptoe around the request or order, but instead just to meet your kiddo where she is and to encourage her first response not to be "no." Once you break the bad habit of "no," it will be easier to get through other levels of learning obedience (do it now, discuss appropriately when you have a concern/complaint, etc).

 

One consideration is to change your thinking. If discipline is about the RIGHT NOW, then you're very likely to be punitive, but have to do it for YEARS. If you can stop thinking about RIGHT NOW, you'll set the kid up to do better FOR LIFE, but the REALLY good part is that though it may be more challenging THIS SECOND, you'll also get results sooner also. How can I explain? You're punishing for obedience at 5 (and I assume at least the past 3 years also). Look on this board at people STILL punishing their 10 yr olds, having backtalking 13yr olds, etc (btw, and I'm talking on an ongoing basis--no child is perfect so there will be a glitch here and there with a kid just like we adults have). If your only goal is THIS situation, they don't get past that or they decide the consequences are worth it. But what if you had to do a little more hands on parenting, spend an extra 15 minutes getting kid into shower, whatever for the next 3,12, 24 months but after that you simply had a glitch where you corrected the child with, "I know I heard 'OKAY MOM'" or "Excuse me?"

 

The reason I'm saying all this is because the GOOD strong discipline (teaching/guidance/supervision/consistency/relationship building/ etc) that you're reading from Godly Tomatoes, The Pearls, Dobson, or whatever will work without doing their next steps. And often their next steps (the "I'm gonna make this miserable for you so you'll choose differently" or "I'll show you whose boss") actually takes away from all their good strong discipline....and for a DIFFICULT child, a TRULY challenging child, that is more so. It's like you're taking 1-2 steps back for every step forward you take with these kids because now they are focused on what you did to them, how they are angry, how unfair life is, etc.

 

What *I* did, as mentioned above, was to decide to ride it out for a little while. Just the good discipline I already learned andused, no punishment. I expected CHAOS. But it didn't happen. Things were NO worse and QUICKLY got better. So to answer Carmen's concern, all *I* did was take out the punishment but keep doing everything else "they" said. Later, I beefed up good discipline after a Bible study, reading books like Raising a Thinking Child and Kids are Worth It and Positive Discipline, etc.

 

Now, when I talk to parents (and IRL it is MUCH different because I have the parent and child there, I know them, etc. I can see the exact situations much more clearly in order to help the parent more easily. Also, I just am not a writer so helping online is not something I'm very good at unlike the lady that helped me), I NEVER tell someone to do it my way. Most people just won't. I was desperate when I did it. I had a very challenging kid, knew I was disciplining well, and was willing to try ANYTHING. But most people aren't that desperate, even when they've been to a shrink and come to me formally. Instead, we just work on beefing up that good discipline and in time, the punishment falls by the wayside.

 

So the good discipline in this case is to change the gut reaction by stating yourself in a more palatable way as much as reasonable (and it usually IS reasonable), encouraging acknowledgment from the child ("okay mommy"), and then to make compliance happen (stopping the world til there is compliance, "helping" child comply, etc). Raising a Thinking Child is good here also because it's "can we go to the park AND sit her waiting for you to get your shoes on?" It's one of the very first lessons in the book. If kiddo learns you WILL follow through, they won't push as hard. THe first several times may take some patience though. But again, a few real standoffs, a few more months of consistency, and you've set the stage for the rest of their lives rather than spending the next several years trying to figure out how much more punishment you can dole out when you've taken every item they own, are doing 15minute time outs, and the next step of spanking would be abuse.

 

Okay, I have to go. I understand people will disagree. I'm fine with that. If you can use the above, please do. It probably will need to be tweaked as No two families, children or parents are exactly the same. But there are LOTS of discipline skills and tools. You find the combination that works for your family.

[Carrie12345]

So what would I do if I tell her to do something and she flat out says "NO"? The Godly Tomatoes site would say to have her stand at the wall, which she refuses. It recommends against time outs. It gives careful advice for those who spank, so it's not done in anger.

 

For me, it would depend on the thing she's saying no to.

Does she get an allowance? If she doesn't feed the dog or clear the table or take the trash out, do it yourself and charge her for it.

If she's refusing to do something like brush her teeth... well, I've got nothing for that one!

 

The main problem with compliance in our house is my timing. I do have a habit of thinking of something and then expecting it to be taken care of right that minute. I don't believe it's fair to expect a child to change gears at the drop of a hat. It's one thing to say "Brush your teeth after you clear the breakfast dishes" and another to ask "Did you brush your teeth?" during a favorite tv show or in the middle of a drawing and expecting them to hop to it. That's a nasty habit I'm trying to break.

[Tree House Academy]

backtalking and acting up for far too long....and yesterday, I decided ENOUGH!! it's now or never...this can not go on any longer...she can be the funniest, sweetest child and yet, she totally does not get that she is 8 yrs old and that she is a child, not an adult. She can not stand to be told no!! she will argue something to death!! I'm hoping like crazy that her persistance will one day benefit her but for now, it's no longer tolerated!

 

She just got out of a 15 minute time out - for backtalking - it started out as 8 minutes but she wouldn't let it lie...just kept telling me, "I am NOT going to time out, you can't make me" and "I will only have time out in MY room, NOT on the stairs"....so every time she said something, I added another minute until she got up to 15 mins!

 

Now, she just poked her head in here and informed that she is not talking to me anymore today because I am a very mean mommy and that I have upset her feelings and that she has done nothing wrong.

 

It kills me! I honestly believe that she truly doesn't see what she's doing is disrespectful...she always asks why she's in trouble, what did she do wrong? and when I tell her(you sassed me, you were rude, you would not follow direction, you weren't listening, etc..)she says "BUT I AM LISTENING!!" or "I WAS NOT BEING RUDE!!!!"

 

Please, tell me that just a few days of me putting the hammer down will help this situation, it's only been a day and a half and I'm exhausted! and gosh knows, my poor 12 yr old...she keeps plugging her ears and going outside due to younger dd screaming her head off while in time out! I mean blood curdling(sp)screaming at the top of her lungs for over 7 minutes - I know her throat has got to be killing her!

 

thanks for listening!:bigear:

 

 

Welcome to parenting the pre...pre-teen. That is what I call it. My almost 10 year old has a mouth that gets him in so much trouble, it isn't even funny. I have often thought he is the type that would argue with Jesus Christ during the second coming if the mood struck him. :( Punishment has not been working well for us, and I have started to realize that the child actually doesn't see what he does as WRONG. We have recently changed our approach in light of this and are now trying to stop him after each infraction in this particular area and explain to him why it was wrong and what the consequences will be from here on out for said action. It is working a bit better thus far. I really think he "didn't get it" which totally makes me shake my head, but oh well.

 

Oh...tell your dd you are NICE. I have been know to add time in 10 minute intervals. The longest time he spent on his bed one day was 30 minutes. He doesn't care though...he goes to sleep. :glare: That is when you KNOW discipline is NOT working...

[freerange]

But here's the deal. You have to be *perfect* yourself in how you speak to your spouse and kids. If you are going to be demanding of her, you just also model it for her.

 

Whilst obviously I'd aspire to perfection, I'm not. I think its just as important, if not even more so, to model how to behave when you've behaved or are behaving inappropriately. Occasionally I've caught myself in that moment of being snappy with someone, and I'll take a breath, calm myself & then apologise & try again the way it should be done. My children have learnt a lot from having seen me heading down a wrong path and stopping & correcting myself.

 

Edited to add: I think its important that if I screw up in front of the kids, I apologise in front of them too. So if I don't realise at the time & need to do so later, I'll either get them back together, or tell them later that I made an error & have apologised.

 

I'm going to go back to reading the rest of the thread now.

Edited July 10, 2009 by freerange

[hmschoolmom22]

we had a great day today - she was very polite, kind and respectful, what a difference a day can make!!

 

thank you everyone, I will refer back to this thread more often than you'll ever know! your advice is wonderful!!!

 

here's to hoping and praying that tomorrow will be another wonderful day- I'm taking it one day at a time!

[gardening momma]

Thank you, Pamela, and everyone else. :)