Homeschool, Unschooling, and Radical Unschooling

[LUV2EDU]

What is the difference between Homeschooling, Unschooling and "Radical" Unschooling? I was watching a youtube video on Dr. Phil regarding homeschooling and Unschooling. This video would make people assume that "radical" unschoolers run wild (No time set for bedtime and no discipline). I want to be objective and not just listen to only one person's definition or point of view.

 

Dr. Phil

 

 

Also, would you consider unschooling. Why or Why not?

Edited July 8, 2009 by LUV2EDU

[Carrie12345]

I'm not going to analyze the details of each philosophy, but I do think our family takes little bits from each type.

 

I could not be a "radical unschooler", and I doubt I could meet most people's definitions of, um... "traditional unschooling" (?). But the idea of child-led learning is still very important to me. I let my kids direct as much of their learning as possible while also requiring them to learn and do certain things.

 

It's a happy medium in our house. :)

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

To your last question: No, I would not consider unschooling. Why? Because I know *my* kids wouldn't learn a blessed thing. I would read all day and they would watch too much tv. They would be better off in public school. I need structure, goals, and some kind of accountability when it comes to making sure my kids are educated according to the standards that I believe they should be.

 

I only know one officially unschooling family and I am not impressed with the quality of the children's education, but I'm sure the mom doesn't care if I am. My 10yo also notices the difference in his friend's learning level, even though I have said nothing to him. I have had to impress on him not to make negative comments about other people's choices.

[TravelingChris]

I don't really know any true unschoolers and I have been homeschooling 15 years all over the place. I knew plenty of people who called themselves unschoolers but weren't what I would call it. That is because what they called unschooling is not using texts and tests. They did use plenty of learning materials even if they were not textbooks. They also did not simply let the kids watch tv or play computer games. I would really called them relzed homeschoolers and their kids were doing fine. I don't know that I would have met any true unschoolers (what is probably referred to as radical unschoolers) since I doubt they would be going to organized activities like homeschool skate or art day.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Unschooling is fine, imo. It is simply trusting in how God created us. Children will learn naturally, through interest, in order to do something else they want to do.

 

Not disciplining is inappropriate, however. If children didn't need guidance, help, etc, they wouldn't be given to parents. It is irresponsible for a parent not to set out boundaries and enforce them. It is dangerous. And when we look at the results of hands of parenting, they are just as bad, sometimes worse, than harsh and abusive parenting. Children NEED discipline. There are aspects of discipline that average parents use that kids do not need (and that aren't really all that beneficial either), but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

 

Anyway, in our experience, schooling choice is on a circular continuum. Unschooling and classical education are pretty darn close to one another. That isn't always the case, I am sure, but it is the case for many unschoolers. The kids learn just as much, just differently and what they learn when is different. Of course, that is true across the education methods.

 

So for those who think, "they'd watch tv all day," could you unschool if unschooling didn't mean neglecting discipline? If your kids didn't have a tv at all or were limited? To be honest? My kids didn't start watching tv and playing video games to any real degree until we started using curriculum more traditionally. I think switching to more schoolish methods opened that door in our case. Before that, they were fine.

[wildflower]

I do not watch Dr Phil. I really do not care for Dr Phil. My Dad (when he was alive) 'watched' him religiously (at the point in his life when he had lost his sight and as a result his independence), I would roll my eyes at every morsel of 'knowledge' that was conveyed to me by way of my Dad from the almighty 'doctor'

With that said- it seems to me there is no grey with that man. If you breast feed for what he considers too long, your a bad mother.

If you co-sleep, you are endangering the life of your child (when the numbers say exactly the opposite).

Now, if you homeschool, your kid must be wild. Has he been to a elementary school yard in the last 40 years- kids fighting, playing games of violence, vulgarities galore?

If we all thought like Dr Phil, should we say 'if your kid goes to public school they will shoot someone'?

Dr Phil, Howard Stern, Rush Limbaugh. They are among many who will say absolutely anything to get their 'numbers up'.

oy.

[Orthodox6]

Unschooling is a sub-type of homeschooling.

 

Unschooling covers a spectrum. At its worst -- (acknowledging that to use the word "worst" displays my opinion) -- extreme unschooling can be (and is) used to reference a child who calls all the shots -- what to learn, how to learn it, whether to learn anything at all in the first place. It is the ultimate in "child-centered" education. Parents who oppose this extreme version of homeschooling often point out that the traditional parent-child relationship is inverted, even destroyed when the child becomes the "tyrant" of his own education (or lack of).

 

Unschooling also can be used to describe when the child desires an education, but the parent has abandoned responsibility, leaving the child(ren) in the lurch to scramble through best as can.

 

I think -- (hope, at least !) -- that most unschoolers fall toward a more moderate end of the unschooling spectrum. An unschooler might use a traditional mathematics textbook, then turn her attention to an amazing self-planned, self-executed complicated project -- say, in random example, hand-carving, tuning, and staining/finishing a beautiful wooden dulcimer. The latter might be considered coursework in art and music.

 

As I don't care for unschooling in general, I don't read much about it, so I don't know the definition of "radical unschooling", and only can guess that it maybe refers to what I have called herein "extreme unschooling."

 

The majority of children are not motivated internally sufficiently to obtain a balanced education. They will study, in varying degrees of depth, what interests them -- for a while. A minority of children are truly self-motivated and self-regulated enough to study something thoroughly. But so rarely could that be said for them obtaining a full k-12 education unaided.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Orthodox6

[Dobela]

I have a friend that unschools and it works very well for her family. All of her children are bright and learn easily. They aren't radical. While I would like to unschool, it just doesn't work for my family. My bright ds has learning disabilities and actually prefers textbooks (He likes seeing the beginning, middle, and end of his efforts in a very visual way). Because of his disabilities, we have had to take a very structured approach to learning.

 

 

ETA: I think that Dr Phil considers homeschooling in general to be radical from allthe comments I have heard and read.

[melissel]

I couldn't unschool because I simply don't have the energy to do it properly. For example, my DD has lately been interested in starting some kind of enterprise--at the moment, a lemonade stand. If I were a proper sort of unschooling mother, I'd jump into the deep end of that opportunity to help her, and in the meantime she'd be learning all kinds of things that are practical for real life--business math, customer service, supply and demand, high-traffic locations vs. low-traffic locations, pricing, etc. (But...I'm not.) I think most unschoolers look for opportunities in real life to develop learning, in addition to letting their children choose more traditional ways of learning, like textbooks or curricula. They simply don't say, "OK, it's 10 a.m., time to sit down and do 30 minutes of Saxon math!" And of course, that's an idealization of what "all" unschoolers do--I'm sure some use it as an excuse to let their kids play video games all day. But I think the same could be said for some HSers in all categories.

 

Also, in my experience, many unschoolers don't have the same educational goals that we might. They may not care whether their kids go to college, and believe that should their kids decide they want to go to college, they will take it upon themselves to get the education and fulfill the requirements they need to get there. I remember one person giving an example of their older teen who decided he wanted to go to the local community college, but who was behind in math. When he figured out what the CC's requirements were for math, he asked for help, she helped him find the right resource, he taught himself, took the test, and entered the CC.

 

As for radical unschooling, my impression (and I could very well be wrong) is that radical unschoolers live their whole lives in the same manner. The kids might decide for themselves when bedtime is--they go to bed when they're tired, they go to bed early when they know they have to get up early or they suffer the consequences of being exhausted the next day. The parents might have the ability to say, "Look, it's 9 p.m. and MY day is over. I'm exhausted and I can't do anymore reading or fixing of snacks, and I need quiet here. Stay up until whatever time you want, but you have to do it in your room so that you don't interfere with MY quiet time." My impression is that it's very similar to non-coercive parenting. And yes, others might feel that their kids are running wild, but the radical unschoolers would probably say that they're just honoring their kids needs, and that if there was a negative consequence to whatever they were doing (other kids didn't want to play with them, they wouldn't be invited back to that house, etc.), they they would help their kids understand the consequence, and the kids could decide if they consequence mattered to them enough to alter their behavior.

 

Some aspects of the parenting part appeal to me, but I was just never able to make it work without feeling trampled on. Maybe it would work better if my kids were older? I don't know, but it wasn't for us. As for unschooling, no, I couldn't do it because I couldn't do it properly, and I DO have lofty educational goals for my kids. If we get to college and they decide they don't want to go, that's fine, but I need to know that I did everything I could to ensure the opportunity was there for them. That's my own personal thing, but I could see where many others would have different goals.

 

I hope others will chime in, but these are my impressions. I did most of my early HSing research on a board with a fair percentage of unschoolers, and this is what I've gleaned. I don't think you'll find many, if any, unschoolers or RUers here, but you never know :D If you're very interested, I can link you to the (support only) board where I gained a lot of perspective on this.

 

Oh, and also, just like in classical HSing, you'll find a spectrum of people in the unschooling and RUing categories. For example, some unschoolers might unschool everything but one subject that they're particularly concerned about; some might "strew," or strategically leave books around that they hope their kids will take an interest in. And then there are the unschoolers who would go to the mat arguing that these people should never be allowed to call themselves unschoolers at all, because they don't do it 110%. And so on :D

 

ETA: Doh! There are a lot more responses now than there were when I started typing, so I duplicated some info. Sorry!

Edited July 8, 2009 by melissel
Clarity

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

I guess when I think of unschooling, I think of not schooling. That is not making any concerted efforts to make sure my kids know what they need to know to survive and thrive in the modern world. I do not trust that children will naturally desire to learn that which they need.

 

I associate structured learning with discipline (in the true sense of the word). The books I have read that encourage unschooling talk about a method of parenting that is far more complex and involved than any traditional homeschooling style. Paradoxically, the parents are far more disciplined than I ever am. Perhaps I am just too lazy to unschool, lol.

 

However, the only real life example I have of unschooling is not anything close to what I have read about. My neighbor's son can't understand why my son can't come out and play whenever he wants during school hours, "isn't he homeschooled too?" (Yeah, and my son could read on a 5th grade level at your age, whereas you can't read at all.)

[Ginevra]

What is the difference between Homeschooling, Unschooling and "Radical" Unschooling? I was watching a youtube video on Dr. Phil regarding homeschooling and Unschooling. This video would make people assume that "radical" unschoolers run wild (No time set for bedtime and no discipline). I want to be objective and not just listen to only one person's definition or point of view.

 

Also, would you consider unschooling. Why or Why not?

 

 

Unschooling: Children learn through natural means, not texts or books or a schooling schedule. The parent may have a mental objective on what they will learn, though, and sets up the environment to accomplish it.

 

Radical unschooling: The above, except parent is not supposed to have a mental objective on what they will learn, and when, and how. Also radical unschooling extends to the rest of life. RUers would not expect to have a bedtime, a wake-up time, a meal time or limits on what activities a child is to do.

 

Homeschooling: Everything else. Obviously, there is a continuum of how close or far someone is from a structured school-at-home homeschool.

 

I started out more of the unschooling mindset, but have become more structured each year. For one thing, it is simply easier (to me) to cover all your objectives by way of didactic materials. It is much more parent-intensive to keep coming up with non-didactic ways to incorporate learning about the objectives you hope they will learn.

 

I would never be a radical unschooler, or really even an unschooler at all at this point. IMO some things are simply better learned systematically, little by little, over time. I would not be okay with a child who was rather old not having learned basic math facts or not being able to read (where there was no disability, simply a lack of introduction). I also think there is something to be said for learning the discipline of working at something daily to achieve mastery. Unless one has uncommon giftedness, one doesn't master the piano or the violin, say, just by diddling around on the instrument whenever the mood strikes. One simply cannot master a skill without committed attention on a regular basis.

 

I do know some unschoolers and a radical unschooler or two. I see a lot of evidence to support my claim that mastery of subjects is not well achieved in this way.

[melissel]

I guess when I think of unschooling, I think of not schooling. That is not making any concerted efforts to make sure my kids know what they need to know to survive and thrive in the modern world. I do not trust that children will naturally desire to learn that which they need.

 

I associate structured learning with discipline (in the true sense of the word). The books I have read that encourage unschooling talk about a method of parenting that is far more complex and involved than any traditional homeschooling style. Paradoxically, the parents are far more disciplined than I ever am. Perhaps I am just too lazy to unschool, lol.

 

However, the only real life example I have of unschooling is not anything close to what I have read about. My neighbor's son can't understand why my son can't come out and play whenever he wants during school hours, "isn't he homeschooled too?" (Yeah, and my son could read on a 5th grade level at your age, whereas you can't read at all.)

 

I hear you. I would not be a good unschooling parent AT ALL. When my DD6 comes to me with things I'm not prepared for, I'm always like, "Later! We'll look that up later!" I also think some kids are well suited to unschooling (my DD6, for sure). Many probably are not. But you're right that good unschooling parents are very disciplined. I used to get so depressed when I read what some of those USing parents were doing. One kid expressed an interest in garbage and recycling. Where does it go? What happens to it? They spent weeks delving into it--the science, the technology, etc. The mom arranged for field trips to local recycling plants and ran out to catch the garbage collectors so they could look at the truck. That puts me and my little encyclopedia set to shame :rolleyes: I wish I could be better at that kind of thing.

[stripe]

Human beings tend to do take the easier path, which is not always the better path. I think part of education involves going beyond one's comfort level, to work through hard bits rather than to drop them and move on to something else. I also believe it's important to delve deeply into things that don't initially attract us. The reason for things is not always immediately apparent (especially to the uninformed), nor is benefit always realized in the short term. I also have a notion of what is required to be educated, and it is my responsibility to equip my children with a certain basic level of education in multiple areas, including character traits like perseverance, organization, and strength. So I would not tend towards "unschooling," or leaving all the important decisions to my children. I think people need guidance from those who know more. This is not dominating someone, it is guiding them.

 

Additionally, children [and adults!] should without a doubt have plenty of time to pursue whatever interests them (knights, beaded jewelry, woodworking) as a means of pleasure and personal expression, rather than trying to impose a curriculum on top of those interests, which in my opinion could very well kill the joy found in that pursuit.

[SeekingSimplicity]

To me homeschooling is doing school at home. Personally, I'm not crazy about that idea. But it works for a lot of people.

Radical unschooling, to me, is not doing school at home at all, and letting pretty much have their way all day every day. Not too crazy about that idea either. I don't think it's what John Holt had in mind. I can see it

working with the right set of parents and kids, tho. I need to have more control over the situation than this.

 

Uschooling, to me, is child led learning. I don't think it means the child is in control completely, but that the parents role is to aid the child in educating him/her self. How this is applied can encompass anything from following the child's interest from one day to the next to sitting down doing school everyday if that is what your child wants/needs. I think it's a very broad road.

To me, I think it's really important to follow their interest, to view the whole world and everything in it as educational, to not limit education to something that happenes at a certain time of day during certain months of the year. I love what John Holt said about learning to learn rather than learning to be taught, and love the idea of learning in freedom. BUt there are certain things they have to know in this life, and it's my job to make certain they get that. Their minds do need some discipline, and they do need guidance, and do need to do things they don't want to do.

I have one child who is very self motivated and can teach herself most things, another who needs lots and lots of work on everything with lots of help from mom. I can turn them both loose and see them learns tons of fabulous things all on their own too tho. So for our family I prefer a middle ground, I say that we somewhat unschool. They are free to follow what ever is exciting to them everyday, but I make sure they get all the major subjects in everyday-- they can go about learning them in whatever way works today, whatever is fun and exciting and makes them love learning, just so long as they get everything they need.

[Ellie]

Unschooling is just homeschooling that doesn't look anything like school. It's a term coined by John Holt to describe a lifestyle of learning...not delight-directed learning, as Gregg Harris called it, where the parents give more direction with a goal in mind, but understanding that learning happens all the time, in all situations. It isn't even spending a lot of brain power and energy in figuring out how it works or what to do next or redecorating your house so that there are learning opportunities all over. It's just living life. An unschooler's home isn't going to necessarily look any different from any other home.

 

Unschoolers might use textbooks if what they want to learn can be found there, but they wouldn't feel bound to use them at all once they had learned what they wanted. They are just as likely to go to the library or surf the Internet...not unlike the way we adults find information on things we want to know. They're not going to worry about what "should" be taught at certain "grade levels." They'll participate in 4-H and other community activities and if they think about it at all, they'll "count" them as part of their education.

 

I think that "radical unschooling" must have been invented by folks who haven't read John Holt's books and don't understand the concept of unschooling.

 

IMHO as an unschooler, it is pointless to differentiate between "unschooling" and "radical unschooling." Either you is or you ain't.:)

[Ellie]

Yes, your dc would learn. They just wouldn't learn what you think they should, when you think they should learn it, in the way you think they should learn it. :-)

[LUV2EDU]

Unschooling: Children learn through natural means, not texts or books or a schooling schedule. The parent may have a mental objective on what they will learn, though, and sets up the environment to accomplish it.

 

Radical unschooling: The above, except parent is not supposed to have a mental objective on what they will learn, and when, and how. Also radical unschooling extends to the rest of life. RUers would not expect to have a bedtime, a wake-up time, a meal time or limits on what activities a child is to do.

 

Homeschooling: Everything else. Obviously, there is a continuum of how close or far someone is from a structured school-at-home homeschool.

 

I started out more of the unschooling mindset, but have become more structured each year. For one thing, it is simply easier (to me) to cover all your objectives by way of didactic materials. It is much more parent-intensive to keep coming up with non-didactic ways to incorporate learning about the objectives you hope they will learn.

 

I would never be a radical unschooler, or really even an unschooler at all at this point. IMO some things are simply better learned systematically, little by little, over time. I would not be okay with a child who was rather old not having learned basic math facts or not being able to read (where there was no disability, simply a lack of introduction). I also think there is something to be said for learning the discipline of working at something daily to achieve mastery. Unless one has uncommon giftedness, one doesn't master the piano or the violin, say, just by diddling around on the instrument whenever the mood strikes. One simply cannot master a skill without committed attention on a regular basis.

 

I do know some unschoolers and a radical unschooler or two. I see a lot of evidence to support my claim that mastery of subjects is not well achieved in this way.

 

Sounds more like "unparenting" to me. If children are allowed to pick and choose what time they will go to bed, parents would never get any rest. "Good Grief Charlie Brown!":001_huh:

Edited July 8, 2009 by LUV2EDU

[melissel]

Sounds more like "unparenting" to me. If children are allowed to pick and choose what time they will go to bed, parents would never get any rest. Good Grief Charlie Brown!:001_huh:

 

And yet, it works for many of the people who do it.

[LUV2EDU]

And yet, it works for many of the people who do it.

 

I take my hat off to them. My 3 year old would destroy the house if I were to let him have full "reign".:willy_nilly::smash:

[melissel]

I take my hat off to them. My 3 year old would destroy the house if I were to let him have full "reign".:willy_nilly::smash:

 

:lol: Yeah, that's why I said maybe it would work better if my kids were older! Frankly, the whole thing would work great if I only had my DD6. She's that kind of kid. But my own 3-year-old...just no.

[Night Elf]

Unschooling is a turn against from what we've come to know today as traditional schooling. It's an encouragement to keep children learning on a natural basis as opposed to having to sit at a table and do forced learning. It's a child-led lifestyle but does not include no discipline or no education. You have to be an unschooler to really know how wonderful it is. Of course, when people from traditional schooling backgrounds who are traditionally schooling their children learn about unschooling they are generally horrified. Ironically, all the reasons that people list for not being able to unschool have also been heard about not being to homeschool.

 

My family's lifestyle is radical unschooling. Unfortunately the kids' educations is not. My DH is not comfortable with unschooling as tests, grades, and diplomas mean so much to him. But I don't give on the other points. My kids have no bedtimes, just as my DH and I don't. We eat what and when we want to eat and my children eat a lot of healthy items. We don't have punishments such as spankings, loss of privilges, or grounding because frankly we have never needed such correction. We've raised our children in a partner style atmosphere.

 

We've looked at bad behavior as needing understanding and redirection, not as a mark against the child him/herself. We've never needed chore lists because the kids just do stuff around the house just like we adults do. I firmly believe it's because I didn't force them that they have learned to appreciate helping. My oldest daughter's stepmom has been so upset with me because she thinks I'm doing something magical to get my kids to do stuff around the house. This same child, my daughter, absolutely hates having to do chores at her stepmom's house. The atmosphere is strict, kids have no voice and must do what they are told when they are told, and parents are the supreme ruler of all they see. If anyone here gets offended that I'm dissing that parenting style, well I guess I am. I've seen first hand how the same child does in both situations and she withers at that house and blossoms at mine.

 

I really dislike seeing unschooling discussed on this board. Too many people are quick to jump on it as a horrible idea or something that is so absolutely special that only certain families can do it. The thing to know however, is that unschoolers don't look at long term goals but live in the here and now with their children. They celebrate everything whether it's seeing the awed look on a child's face when watching a beautiful butterfly, or discovering that letters and numbers can be manipulated to have all kinds of meanings. Editing to add: unschoolers just don't find an importance on prepping a child all during their childhood to become adults. It's seen as an act of robbing the children of some of their best living and loving years of their entire lives. Lots of unschoolers have ended up in the same places as traditional homeschoolers. They attend college and/or they get jobs. The difference is that they haven't lost passion about life. (Yes, I know that's a generalization which I'm sure many here will be quick to pick up on.) My dd17 has been traditionally educated all her life. Her ideas about learning are completely different from her siblings who were raised most of their lives in an unschooling environment. Even now with curriculum, I have to work hard at finding a balance that satisifies my DH's educational expectations and my desire to not crush my kids' personalities and spirits.

 

And Dr. Phil is an idiot. I loved his show until the homeschooling episode that I believe was discussed on this board. We learned that he stacked the audience with people against homeschooling and had only a few homeschoolers dispersed throughout the crowd. He manipulated the show to show his own views. Hey, it's his show. But I no longer watch because I cannot trust him to be presenting all the facts fairly. He's no better than Jerry Springer IMHO.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Night Elf

[Snickerdoodle]

The unschoolers I know tend to have a very "cult of unschooling" attitude. It's really a turn off.

 

There I said it.

[Night Elf]

...since I doubt they would be going to organized activities like homeschool skate or art day.

 

Not true. Unschoolers actually have much more time to devote to fun activities like this. They even join homeschool classes as long as there is no forced expectations.

 

When I was unschooling my kids at younger ages, we were always disappointed that we couldn't find anyone that wanted to do cool trips like the zoo, museum, art, and lego robotics. Traditional schoolers are so intent on following their schedule and the idea of taking a day off to do something frivolous seemed negligent to them. Unless I'm the only one in the world to encounter so many traditional homeschoolers who felt that way. I guess I have formed my opinion of traditional homeschoolers based on a few families like many here have based their opinions on the few unschooling families they know.

[Wyndie]

Unschooling: Children learn through natural means, not texts or books or a schooling schedule. The parent may have a mental objective on what they will learn, though, and sets up the environment to accomplish it.

 

 

 

I do traditional homeschooling with texts and curriculum; however I did use the above approach for my middle child this year with reading. We tossed the curriculum, got a chalkboard she could hold and let her go at it making rhymes and spelling whatever words she would ask for. This helped her learn to read (in quick order I might add!) but we continue to do traditional homeschool in every other subject. So I guess we're a blend of home and un...

 

My good friend down the road unschools by the above definition but she spends 2 hours a night after the kids go to bed planning their environment for the next day. She spends more time unschooling than I do regular schooling and her children are amazing. They are bright, intelligent children. I couldn't do that much planning but it works for her. They are not radical, but they do unschool in the John Holt fashion

[PinkInTheBlue]

I'm not saying unschooling doesn't work. I've seen one family make it work in a great way. They learned a lot and did a great job. However, in my family, it wouldn't work. One son would skateboard, skate and play a bit of video games all day. The other son would play video games, draw and watch tv all day. They've never leaned toward the things that offer those type of learning opportunities.

[stripe]

To me homeschooling is doing school at home.

 

Unschooling is just homeschooling that doesn't look anything like school.

 

Aha. This is insightful to clarify the vocabulary. I tend to use the word "homeschooling" as a generic for education based out of the home, rather than at school, since that is the term that has been accepted as the general term by most people.

 

And frankly, I find the term "unschooling" to be about as inspiring as the terms "nonfiction" or a "flourless chocolate cake" -- saying what something is makes it have more of an identity, I think, other than focusing on what it's not. I'd rather eat a "molten truffle" than a "flourless chocolate cake," for example. The term "radical" is rather emotionally loaded, so the desire to embrace a term like "radical unschooling" does suggest something about what sort of lifestyle one is leading.

 

I personally reject the idea that "freedom" is best obtained by a complete elimination of rules and structure. When it comes to food, for example, I know someone (who lives alone) who advocates people eating whenever they want. The trouble with that, as far as I am concerned -- keeping in mind that I am the primary cook and a member of a household with multiple people, is that I don't want to be responsible for meeting someone's food needs on an ongoing, neverending basis throughout the day; I do have other responsibilities to attend to. I also feel that when one selects tiny snacks, they tend to be either high-fat/sugar/salt items (donut, potato chips) or bits and pieces of fruits and vegetables, rather than a coherant meal. I am not a food dictator, but I feel that nibbling and chewing all day long on snacks does have repercussions to one's health (including dental), and I frankly do enjoy sitting down with others for a meal. I think structure does have its benefits, in both physical and intellectual development.

[Karen sn]

I was an unschooler for a while. My dd played all day long in a friend's backyard while I worked a part time job. Dd was 5 and could have been kindergarten but I wanted to wait a year - she needed it! We did science every day because we discussed bugs and frogs and researched every question she had regarding the animal kingdom. We also did math because it is a real life activity.

 

We moved that year and she ended up in a school based on Summerhill (A.S. Neil) - the kids play and only take classes they want to take. She did yoga, cooking, and played A TON of card games (math). When teachers or other parents taught about bugs or anything in nature, she was right there learning. She learned so much here - both academically and emotionally. They did a lot of self governing and we both actively participated in that process.

 

When she was 6yo (Kindergaten for us) we continued at that school and we also did stuff at home - Right Start Math and science. And of course we love books and the library. I taught her about money and she collected and sorted and counted all the time. We went to museums and state parks that offer tons of education on the world around us.

 

When she was 7 I went back to school and she went to a Montessori.

She actually learned more at the other school.

 

Then for 4th grade we got back into homeschool.

And although we could still unschool much of our science and math, we did start to do formal grammar and local history. I needed some routine and she finally picked up on reading (outgrew slight dyslexic issues). I also started doing money math with her every day (she learned how to count back change).

 

Unschooling is a lot more work for me than what we do now.

Although we still unschool in a lot of ways - we also do kitchen table schooling with Growing With Grammar, Sequential Spelling, Michele's Math, and Story of the World. Our science is whatever we want to learn more about (this week we are back to flowering trees and we checked out some books and videos related to that).

 

I consider picking blueberries and hiking "science" because we discuss it and learn so much out there on our little mountain. (We even have bear scat discussions and I move it around a little with a stick so we can see what the bears are eating). We know to make noise while we are there so we don't surprise any bears with our presence and we know not to run away but to huddle together making loud noises, waving our arms, and appearing larger than we are should we happen upon one. Real life skills is what I am all about.

 

Unschooling has been done by serious parents with fantastic results.

Some kids went to Harvard....their parents are famous in the unschool world.

But they did more than I ever could. THese psople were organized.

I think I have taken the easy way out because we school with a bit of both.

I allow my dd to explore what she truly desires and therefore she retains what she is learning. But I also require her to practice beautiful cursive and sit at the kitchen table for a few hours every week while we go through our 4 subjects: math, history, english, and science.

 

Right now we have company and a friend her age. We are doing Words on the Vine (intro to Latin and Greek roots). Her friend has been sitting in on this and history as well. Yesterday this friend asked if we could do more Latin and when we colored a map of India - she wanted one as well.

 

I like short and simple lessons and we make it interesting. We have fun learning. And sometimes not fun. But we do it well and she retains the info. We are ecclectic and I LOVE homeschooling this way - no pressure!

Edited July 8, 2009 by Karen sn

[emmsmama]

Unschooling to me means following the child's interests and providing a rich learning environment for them. I think a lot of ecclectic homeschoolers fall somewhat into this area. However, to me unschooling parents still expect that their child will be learning a good portion of the day, whether that is through digging in the dirt in the backyard and playing with the bugs they find or doing pages in an Explode the Code book.

 

Radical unschooling to me means letting the child read all day if they want to or play video games all day if they want to. For some kids I think it would work well to radically unschool, others not so much. If my son knew he could play video games all day and do nothing else, he would. Dd would probably do okay with radical unschooling, but even with her I'd have concerns about how it would go.

 

As far as Dr. Phil goes, even before the hs'ing episode he did I couldn't stand the guy. I think it was the episode where there was the mom who circ'd her son and regretted it and his advice was to just get over it because basically her son isn't going to care that made me realize what a fraud he was. Even before that I didn't like him and thought he was waaay over-rated though. Then again, I think Oprah is over-rated too and a lot of people have practically immortalized her. Given, she does a lot more good than Dr. Phil does, but I don't take everything she says as truth or greatness like some people do.

[Wildiris]

What is the difference between Homeschooling, Unschooling and "Radical" Unschooling? I was watching a youtube video on Dr. Phil regarding homeschooling and Unschooling. This video would make people assume that "radical" unschoolers run wild (No time set for bedtime and no discipline). I want to be objective and not just listen to only one person's definition or point of view.

 

 

Also, would you consider unschooling. Why or Why not?

 

 

I've never watch Dr. Phil before seeing this youtube clip, and I think his remarks are valid. The "Radical Unschoolers" have some very young children and because they are young, radical unschooling could be an OK option, but what happens when these children get older? It seems that this is more of a parenting issue and not really an issue of homeschooling, or perhaps homeschooling choices become an extension of a parenting lifestyle.

 

Perhaps I am misguided, but I was under the impression that the reason we have juvenile delinquency is because young people do not have enough structure in their lives and without structure they embark on deviant behavior.

 

My person opinion is that children should be given a degree of freedom, yet understand that thier choices or lack of choice brings consiquences both good and bad. I do not think children should be given the same freedom as adults. To grant children equal freedom and equal consiquence would be a great disservice and infact be disrespectful of a child. Helping a child tackle self-discipline and to reap its rewards would be of better service.

[stripe]

I suspect it also takes an incredibly well-educated parent to provide intelligent commentary and guidance about whatever one may encounter in the world, to make all these sorts of connections. If you are not a walking encyclopedia, it may be easy to, for example, miss a passing reference to Greek mythology or a minor character in Shakespeare or a short-lived economic theory, and thereby miss the opportunity to connect that.

[Ellie]

I've never watch Dr. Phil before seeing this youtube clip, and I think his remarks are valid. The "Radical Unschoolers" have some very young children and because they are young, radical unschooling could be an OK option, but what happens when these children get older? It seems that this is more of a parenting issue and not really an issue of homeschooling, or perhaps homeschooling choices become an extension of a parenting lifestyle.

Dr. Phil has zero credibility with me; nevertheless, there is either unschooling or there is not. It doesn't need to be quantified, e.g., "radical."

 

John Holt's newsletter, Growing Without Schooling, was full of examples of children of all ages learning all sorts of wonderful things, and not because their parents dedicated their lives to answering the dc's every question or catering to their every whim.

 

David and Micki Colfax brought up 4 sons on a goat ranch. They taught the boys to read and math to algebra; after that, they were on their own when they were not working the ranch. Last I heard, three of the four had all graduated from Harvard (one doctor, two attorneys, I believe). Yes, unschooling "works" for learners of all ages, regardless of the parents' education.

 

Perhaps I am misguided, but I was under the impression that the reason we have juvenile delinquency is because young people do not have enough structure in their lives and without structure they embark on deviant behavior.

 

My person opinion is that children should be given a degree of freedom, yet understand that thier choices or lack of choice brings consiquences both good and bad. I do not think children should be given the same freedom as adults. To grant children equal freedom and equal consiquence would be a great disservice and infact be disrespectful of a child. Helping a child tackle self-discipline and to reap its rewards would be of better service.

 

Unschooling doesn't necessarily mean unstructure or undiscipline, although that may be the situation sometimes. It is possible to unschool while still helping children "tackle self-discipline." Unschooling only means that the children are learning in ways that don't look anything like school, especially not today's schools.

[swellmomma]

I have known many unschoolers as that is a very popular method in my city. Some have been amazing and I truely wish I could have been educated in the way they do with their kids. The kids were very self motivated, the mother was always strewing, she was always ready to turn everything around them into a learning experience. Others I have known were calling themselves unschoolers, and some radical unschoolers, but it was more like wanting a label to excuse laziness on the parent's part. THe children had no rules or boundries, were expected to teach themselves everything and tend to all their own needs from a very young age (one boy I knew from the age of 6 was expected to do all the housework and cook him own meals).

 

For me I wish I could unschool like the one family I mentioned, child led but with guidance, strewing etc. However, given my own need for structure(or my laziness kicks in), and my kids need for that as well(adhd and unschooling do not mix imo), means that following a more rigid schedule is important. As well even without a tv and limited videogames my kids would not actively chose to learn something. They do read books as if the library was going out of business and they must read all the books before time runs out. But that is about it. They do explore things if I have introduced the topic to them, but then that is not really child led. As well I know what goals I have in mind for their educations and their futures and do not feel that unschooling will help them reach those goals suitably.

 

So long answer short, no I could not unschool.

[WishboneDawn]

We were radical unschoolers until my daughter was eight. We then ventured into curriculum and now we're probably unschoolers or very relaxed homeschoolers - I'm not sure which.

 

I called myself a radical unschooler because we had no curriculum, no lessons, nothing schooly at all. I wouldn't call myself one now because my daughter has math and a couple of other subject we handle through curriculum. Yes, she's had a say in all the curriculum but I don't give her a say in whether she can opt out of certain subjects completely. My son has some reading and math to do that he has no choice in as well. Sure, it's only some Progressive Phonics and Miquon but he doesn't get to choose not to do it.

[astrid]

Um, wow. No dicipline? Eat as much as they want? Watch as much TV as they want?

 

Hope things work out that way for them as adults.

 

astrid

[melissel]

Um, wow. No dicipline? Eat as much as they want? Watch as much TV as they want?

 

Hope things work out that way for them as adults.

 

astrid

 

I think the idea is not that the parent walks away and throws her hands up. Most of the unschoolers I know of don't have TVs and don't really buy junk food. They strive to provide a healthy and well rounded lifestyle, so the kids' options are not just A) sit around and watch TV or B) crack open a textbook. They go on trips, they go to the park, they take classes and plan events. The parents are present, providing guidance and watching for opportunities to facilitate learning.

[Cheryl in NM]

What is the difference between Homeschooling, Unschooling and "Radical" Unschooling? I was watching a youtube video on Dr. Phil regarding homeschooling and Unschooling. This video would make people assume that "radical" unschoolers run wild (No time set for bedtime and no discipline). I want to be objective and not just listen to only one person's definition or point of view.

 

Dr. Phil

 

 

Also, would you consider unschooling. Why or Why not?

 

There are quite a few radical unschoolers where I live. Most of them are nice, but they provide very little boundaries for their kids and their kids run the show. One, in particular, the leader of the group, nationally recognized, does absolutely nothing with her kids. Well, they are all grown now, but they ran wild. Went were they wanted, did what they wanted, ate what they wanted and when, wore what they wanted, stayed up all night and slept all hours of the day. Her daughter, at 12, begged another mom to teach her to read because HER mother didn't have time. None of these kids have gone to college, but they all hold jobs and are not horrible people. Still, based on that one example, I would not consider radical unschooling for our family.

 

We have had periods of time where we unschooled. This is usually when one of us has been sick or ds has an extended period of being unable to foucs and retain his schoolwork. During those times I require basic math skils to be practiced in any way he choses, reading and educational tv. We go to the library to get books and videos on the things he interested in learning. He has learned a lot during these times, but the basics have slipped. His math and grammar became stagnant. Although, after these periods he was ready to learn again.

[JenniferB]

I just watched all 5 of the episodes on You Tube. That was a very interesting show to me. I started out with more of an unschooling approach, Montessori, child-led, but I have gone way to the other end. I direct my children in every way, because I have come to realize that they cannot direct themselves yet. They make poor choices when given so much freedom. They do better when I give them tasks, assignments, chores, and even direct their friendships to some extent in guiding them away from negative influences, and toward positive influences. That's where I'm at right now anyway. I'm guessing that as my children get into middle school & high school they will gain more freedom as I see that they are able to make good choices.

[astrid]

I know several unschoolers. I agree with you. In my personal opinion, I just don't think that the real world works that way, and I wonder (I don't know, that's why I say "I wonder..." how difficult it becomes for radically unschooled kids to adjust when they are suddenly faced with making a living, for instance.

 

Another think I'd worry about if I were a radical unschooler is what would happen to my kid if something should happen and I were faced with no option but going to work full-time to support the family. How would a radically unschooled kid adjust to school, whatever that form may take? (public, private, someone else's homeschool, etc.)

 

Just rambling thoughts.

 

astrid

[Tree House Academy]

To me, unschooling is more child led learning. It is definitely not scripted or scheduled like a typical homeschool. I have friends who are unschoolers and they tend to spend a lot of time at the library, do lots of unit studies, etc.

 

When I think of "radical unschooling," I think more of those who decided to teach their kids to "learn through life." There is typically no set learning time and they may not even sit down and do any kind of "school." For instance, they are taught math by cooking (measurements, adding, subtracting, etc), paying for items at the store, etc.

 

My "definitions" are not out of any book...it is just what I think of when I hear these terms.

 

I don't see unschooling or radical unschooling as "bad" at all. I think that a parent who is devoted to whichever method they choose for their kids will succeed at teaching that way. :)

 

That said, I am a scheduling, by the book, to the letter homeschooler. LOL

[sagira]

No set bedtime here (somewhere between 10PM-12AM, when ds is tired), but definitely discipline and little screen time, but as far as school, we do structured activities first, then free late afternoons. Unschoolers are not the only ones who can enjoy the freedom to go to bed when you're tired. I've been to institutional school all my life, but unbeknownst to my parents, I always went to bed when I was tired. I would sit and read for hours. Still not a morning person. I believe in going to bed when you're tired and eating when you're hungry. As far as reading and math are concerned, these need to be taught in a structured way (for me at least).

 

I don't want to unschool because I need some structure. Also, a friend of mine radically unschools and she tells me her kids watch too much TV and play too many video and computer games. Um, no. I'm afraid that would happen here too if we let everything go. Ds thrives on the bit of structure, and I guess as a result of the little to no screen time, he's an avid reader and enjoys learning new things. He plays a lot with his sister too.

 

I'm assuming you can radically unschool and still send your kids to bed at a set time. Who knows? So many family variations.

[melissel]

I know several unschoolers. I agree with you. In my personal opinion, I just don't think that the real world works that way, and I wonder (I don't know, that's why I say "I wonder..." how difficult it becomes for radically unschooled kids to adjust when they are suddenly faced with making a living, for instance.

 

Another think I'd worry about if I were a radical unschooler is what would happen to my kid if something should happen and I were faced with no option but going to work full-time to support the family. How would a radically unschooled kid adjust to school, whatever that form may take? (public, private, someone else's homeschool, etc.)

 

Just rambling thoughts.

 

astrid

 

Gotcha. I spent a lot of time on a board where there was a ton of bickering and back and forth about this (to the point where the unschoolers asked for, and got, their own subforum), and I think the argument would probably be that unschoolers don't envision their free-spirited kids buckling down to do your typical jobs unless they desire to, in which case, they'll make the changes they need to make to make it work. These kids might be the ones starting their own companies and setting their own hours, or they might be surfers who work part-time jobs on the side as needed, or they might be video game designers or artists, working all night and sleeping all day because that's what suits them, etc. I think they just worry about that stuff less--for better or for worse, who knows?

 

Your second point is totally valid, but then again, I worry about that stuff too. I have a feeling I'll never be able to quit my job, and I won't be able to keep up this pace, and DD6 will end up in school, and she'll be miserable. But I keep on keeping on anyway.

 

And for full disclosure, I'm not an unschooler in any way, shape, or form, but I will say that I've spent the better part of the last two years too overwhelmed to do much formal teaching. I have been absolutely blown away at what DD6 has just picked up over the past two years. The same kid who was struggling with basic addition a few months ago is learning multiplication as she goes about her everyday life. So I don't know...I don't think it's totally bunk. I just think it's a mindset.

[Tree House Academy]

And then I watched the video.....

 

OMG! Ummm...your 5 year old still drinks from a bottle. Wow. No punishment, no rules, no education. Eep.

[KrissiK]

I think unschooling may be a good theory, and I'm sure a lot of people do a great job, I just don't know any of them. Most of the people I know don't do math because their kids hate math. I also think it depends on the kids. I personally, would have been a great kid to unschool. I learned to read on my own at age 4. I did research papers on my own, after school. When I had free time in class, I wrote stories, researched things, did a lot of extra work. Even now, I love to learn. I read biographies. I did an extensive study on Medieval British history - mainly the Plantagenet Dynasty. I don't vacation, I take field trips. If I don't visit at least one museum or take a nature hike, the trip is a waste. Ok, that's me. My kids - I don't think so. They are not adverse to learning, but I have to introduce it and direct it. Otherwise they'd just fight and play all day long. We go on hikes and all they do is complain. Even if we've only been walking on flat ground for 10 minutes. Unschooling, as I understand it, even Charlotte Mason (and I admit I don't understand much, but from what I've picked up) would not be a good fit for our family.

[KingM]

This might work for some kids, but it would never work for mine. They need discipline and direction and maybe I'm stifling their free spirits by imposing order, but I think they'll find that serves them better in life.

 

For better or worse, we live in a society where hard work, discipline, and order are rewarded. Those who don't learn these lessons often struggle.

[melissel]

And then I watched the video.....

 

OMG! Ummm...your 5 year old still drinks from a bottle. Wow. No punishment, no rules, no education. Eep.

 

Heh! Well, therein lies the part I can't do. My hair stood on end when the five-year-old shrieked at her about the bottle. I won't be a servant in my own house, but I'd love to relax a little more than I am now!

[Tree House Academy]

Then I watched Part 2 with the teacher talking about how WONDERFUl pubic school is. GAG. I honestly agree MUCH more with the radical unschooler parents (minus the 5 year old with the bottle and the "eat what you want" thing) than I do Dr. Phil or the ps teacher lady.

 

The word of the day folks "socialization." Repeat after me.... "Kids in public school are SOCIALIZED." Homeschoolers obviously lock their kids in the house and make them eat junk and watch TV all day. Good grief! I can't watch any more of the videos. I'd like to slap way too many people.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[Kathy in MD]

What is the difference between Homeschooling, Unschooling and "Radical" Unschooling? I was watching a youtube video on Dr. Phil regarding homeschooling and Unschooling. This video would make people assume that "radical" unschoolers run wild (No time set for bedtime and no discipline). I want to be objective and not just listen to only one person's definition or point of view.

 

Dr. Phil

 

 

Also, would you consider unschooling. Why or Why not?

 

I couldn't be a decent unschooler because *I* am not organized enough to ensure that my ds learned what he needed to. A good unschooler has to work much harder than I do, be far more creative, able to leap onto unexpected situations, set up the house and environment to learn and have a secret, underlying organization. A good unschooler would need a system similar to a Montessori classroom, but maybe a bit more subtle.

 

Also it helps if your child likes to learn and learns easily. Unfortuately mine had too many LD's early in life that killed all attempts to work and learn.

[Ginevra]

One thing I've noticed when a parent has a rather extreme belief in "respecting the child's own desires and needs", is that the parent's (or other people's) needs are often trumped by the child not having to comply to others' schedules, plans, ideals, etc. For example, because the child claims to not be tired and wants to stay up until 1:00am, the mother cannot go to bed. (I witnessed this with a family member who believed this way.) In the same scenario, the child is then not prepared to go do XYZ that mother intended the next day, because they are still asleep at 11:30am. Or, as someone else mentioned, with the eating all day long; I don't want to be in an endless cycle of making various foods for various hungry people throughout the day, and then cleaning up from making it. If it is something that requires no preparation, the chances are good that it is not part of a wholesome meal. So, in order to allow my child to express this "right to eat as hunger dictates", I have to subjugate my own wish not to be messing around in the kitchen for hours and hours. So, my own rights are being trumped by the child.

 

Similarly, what happens when Child A has goals that oppose the Child B? Child B would be happy to go to the museum, but Child A refuses to go? Does Child B have to miss out on their learning opprotunity because the parents can't require it of Child A? I say this because this is a scenario I also witnessed in a RU family.

 

In the idea that such children will grow up to be entreprenuers, I am very doubtful. Entreprenuers need even more self-discipline than the average company drone. My husband and all his brothers are business owners and they grew up with more structure and discipline than the average family. He lived on a farm and was required to go milk the cow at 5:00am, getting slapped in the face with a manure-soaked tail. :D This was not a task he enjoyed and would not have pursued it on his own, but I believe his mother is right when she tersely explains, "It built character." They harvested hay (have you ever done it? It's a horrid task!), they planted and weeded and watered. None of these activities would have been chosen on their own, but I am very thankful they were required to do them.

[melissel]

One thing I've noticed when a parent has a rather extreme belief in "respecting the child's own desires and needs", is that the parent's (or other people's) needs are often trumped by the child not having to comply to others' schedules, plans, ideals, etc. For example, because the child claims to not be tired and wants to stay up until 1:00am, the mother cannot go to bed. (I witnessed this with a family member who believed this way.) In the same scenario, the child is then not prepared to go do XYZ that mother intended the next day, because they are still asleep at 11:30am. Or, as someone else mentioned, with the eating all day long; I don't want to be in an endless cycle of making various foods for various hungry people throughout the day, and then cleaning up from making it. If it is something that requires no preparation, the chances are good that it is not part of a wholesome meal. So, in order to allow my child to express this "right to eat as hunger dictates", I have to subjugate my own wish not to be messing around in the kitchen for hours and hours. So, my own rights are being trumped by the child.

 

Similarly, what happens when Child A has goals that oppose the Child B? Child B would be happy to go to the museum, but Child A refuses to go? Does Child B have to miss out on their learning opprotunity because the parents can't require it of Child A? I say this because this is a scenario I also witnessed in a RU family.

 

In the idea that such children will grow up to be entreprenuers, I am very doubtful. Entreprenuers need even more self-discipline than the average company drone. My husband and all his brothers are business owners and they grew up with more structure and discipline than the average family. He lived on a farm and was required to go milk the cow at 5:00am, getting slapped in the face with a manure-soaked tail. :D This was not a task he enjoyed and would not have pursued it on his own, but I believe his mother is right when she tersely explains, "It built character." They harvested hay (have you ever done it? It's a horrid task!), they planted and weeded and watered. None of these activities would have been chosen on their own, but I am very thankful they were required to do them.

 

Your post might not be directed at me, but my response is: I Hear you. And I generally agree with you, which is why my attempt at LESS coercive parenting went quickly by the wayside, and why I said I felt trampled. I was just trying to explain the thought process. I knew I could never be an unschooler but I researched gentle discipline and noncoercive parenting (which goes hand in hand with RUing) extensively because I love the ideal of it. Not so in love with the reality, unfortunately! But I was trying to lay out some of the reasoning based on discussions I've participated in in the past. Again, right or wrong, they have to do what works for their family. And since their family's demands don't impinge on me, who am I to say their kids will be screwed up? I'm sure most people think that about HSed kids in general. "What will happen to them when they get into the REAL world?" So I say, eh, take what you like, leave what you don't.

 

ETA: And Dr. Phil is an idiot no matter what!

Edited July 8, 2009 by melissel
To cast aspersions on Dr. Phil

[Ginevra]

Your post might not be directed at me, but my response is: I Hear you. And I generally agree with you, which is why my attempt at LESS coercive parenting went quickly by the wayside, and why I said I felt trampled.

 

That's right - not directed at you. Just a musing on the subject in what I've witnessed. :001_smile: