Okay, so this just made me very sad.......

[Melinda in VT]

Here's the thing that concerns me. Sin IS sin, period. Why should we tolerate it at all? I don't want my children exposed to ANY of the sins you mentioned. I want my children to hide their faces to all sin. In fact, I shield them as much and for as long as I can. Yet I do teach them to hate the sin but love the sinner, just as Jesus did.

 

The thing that bothers me most about this topic is that in today's world, we are forced to tolerate sin lest we be called "stupid," "mean," or (gasp) "politically incorrect." We are also forced to expose our youngest children to sin because others lack the shame to hide it.

 

Well, what is or isn't a sin is a religious issue. And since we live in a religiously plural society, we're just going to have to learn to live with others behaving in ways that we think are sinful but they don't.

 

I wear pants, drink coffee, wear tank tops, and eat shrimp in public. I lack the shame to hide these sins.;)

[Home'scool]

And, I too, read it as intolerant although much more subtle, i.e this is how they would be raised if I were doing it ("I wanted to pull her aside and say "You are very young, and someday you will get out into the world and meet all sorts of people. Some will be very smart, very creative, and very kind. What will you do when you find out that some of these very people are gay?").

 

They obviously believe differently than you. Being tolerant, you can release them to not believe like you.

 

Well, I guess I AM intolerant then! I hope I always have a low tolerance level for hate.

 

What exactly about my statement do you find fault with? She WAS very young. She WILL meet creative, smart, kind GAY people. And then what? Will she then think they are dumber than monkeys? I do think the mother is doing her child a disservice by teaching her this sentiment. They would be raised better if the mother explained that they might not agree with the lifestyle and to avert their eyes, but that everyone has value. That's not a parenting style, that's human kindness.

 

And her parenting style was manifesting itself in the hateful glares her youngest was giving me, and in the smug comments her oldest was making. She should be very proud:glare:

 

This sentiment about being dumber than an animal is the wrong way to teach a child your viewpoint, don't you agree?

[Garga]

My kids are only 4 and 6 and don't really know much about anything yet.

 

When they're old enough for these tough issues (gay marriage, abortion, etc.), my plan is to teach them that every single person was created by God with a purpose and a destiny and all are precious.

 

Therefore, we should treat each person like the priceless being that they are, even if we totally disagree with their beliefs or actions.

 

I will also teach my children what I believe to be right and wrong according to careful reading of the bible, but will do my best to make sure they don't act cruelly on any beliefs we have. We don't have to embrace everyone else's beliefs/actions, but we do have to treat them with gentle love.

 

Jesus constantly spent time with people who were obviously disobeying God (thieves, prostitutes, etc.) and he always treated them with affection and healed them and ate a lot of dinners with them. :tongue_smilie: I should do no less.

 

The rest is between them and God, and is not really my business.

[Ohdanigirl]

Well I will say it. I would not want to be on that train if I had my children with me. I do not want to have to explain to my young children why two men are (your words) "sitting with arms linked, or interacting in a manner that you could tell they were a couple"

 

 

I have to respect your being the first to admit it....That said i would never do that :D I'm perfect.

 

Seriously though, I would never agree that it is right to teach hate. We all make mistakes though. When I was younger I would have argued that I would never have done what this women did, I accept and know now that things change, and I would do some of it.

 

When living in San Diego I loved taking the kids to Balboa Park on the bus. We would see Gay people holding hands, not a problem. But the first time I was stopped at a light and noticed a gay couple making out at the corner I did try to keep ds distracted....I was not ready for that conversation. A few years later in a similar situation it was not as big a problem, we talked and I felt like he was old enough to hear it. I guess it comes down to when you feel the time has come to have the discussion and in what detail...and recognizing at what age you at no longer be able to sheld them from certain things.

 

Eventually they are going to see things and it would be nice if we as parents have prepared them for it. Also, I would be pretty embarressed if I had not spoken to ds about this, and when he was in this type of situation he yelled out "MOM WHY ARE THOSE MEN KISSING". I guess I just see it as a life lesson and some people handle it better than others.

 

Now I see nothing wrong with covering my son's eyes when two hetero teens are making out at the park....no need to get any ideas in his head.:D Remember, my ds isn't getting married until he is 28 and has a PHD. Don't you admire my grasp on reality?

[specialmama]

[You also don't address all the GAY people who are saved and have a personal relationship with Jesus. I have many gay friends that know Christ but had to stop attending church because of the judgement passed on them by other "Christians". Matthew 7:3-5 says "3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

Are you so snow white that you have the right to call others on what you perceive as sin? What happens if when you get to Heaven you see gay people there. What if you find out that *shock* biologically their brains were a different gender than their body. God knew that, but you being of human mind and spirit could not. How many souls are being lost every day to the harsh judgement and persecution by "Christians"? How exactly do YOU know? Do you abstain from sex for 80 days after the birth of a female daughter? Do you sleep in a different bed than your spouse (or a different house) because you are having your period? Are you perfect by the Bible's standards?

 

I used to be one of those "Christians" who believed that homosexuality was a sin and felt some sort of "call" to get on my high horse and try to change them. Then through prayer I was convicted that I was wrong. My behavior and behavior of the like minded was driving many homosexuals away from the love of Christ. We are supposed to be like him. We are to love and accept people just the way they are. It is God's job to work on them as individuals and change what he prompts them to change. However, even if it is a sin and they weren't born that way, that is between them and God, not for us to convict them of.

 

I am so far from snow white it ain't funny! I don't believe my responses to be high and mighty, so I'll take your response to be in a positive tone. That said, I do know that a Christian can be gay, I know a few, and I do know that there are many faults in the church. I'm not calling others on what I percieve as sin. The bible states it, not me. And as mentioned before, it's also a sin to look at a woman with lust, and to lie and to steal, etc. I absolutely 100% agree with you that we are to love all people, it is totally up to God to work in their lives. As for us not convicting them of it, well, I would have to think of this more. See, I have several gay friends, and when they ask, when the Spirit leads, we talk. There are times when we are called to go to a brother (or sister) to help them on their way, so this is a calling to bring something to their attention, with the underlying understanding of a relationship being in place. It's not standing in the city square shouting "repent!" LOL! Ah, my brain is shutting down, but I trust you understand what I mean by that. There's a difference between loving people and convicting people, I agree with you, that's what started this whole conversation, it was about showing love to everyone.

 

By the way, hopping down the bunny trail of Old Testament rules and regulations, they were there so that we could see how we fail, so that we could see how we need a Saviour. And yes, history is FULL of people who did horrid things in the name of Christ, no argument there. Doesn't mean they were true Christians, and yes, that is a whole other can of worms.

 

As for finding out in Heaven if they are wired differently, well that wouldn't surprise me at all. The people I know who used to be gay still fight with urges and thoughts, it is a daily "giving it over" and a struggle for sure. But they let Him change them and give them strength, He does. It just doesn't mean it's easy or that the thoughts leave every time.

[teamturner]

 

To me that is bigotry at it's finest.

 

Well this is from an older dictionary so it may not be pc enough. The definition of bigot- One obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.

 

Help me out here, but doesn't that make us all bigots when we cling to our own beliefs about ____ and call the other ones intolerant?

 

I don't think the mom on the bus was correct in her behavior but aren't we all allowed to have our own set of beliefs and act accordingly? I think acting lovingly towards each other even when we don't agree could go a long way. I don't want to teach my dc to go around judging people. That's not our job.

[HeatherLynn]

Well this is from an older dictionary so it may not be pc enough. The definition of bigot- One obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.

 

Help me out here, but doesn't that make us all bigots when we cling to our own beliefs about ____ and call the other ones intolerant?

 

I don't think the mom on the bus was correct in her behavior but aren't we all allowed to have our own set of beliefs and act accordingly? I think acting lovingly towards each other even when we don't agree could go a long way. I don't want to teach my dc to go around judging people. That's not our job.

 

No, I do not think this makes us all bigots. Read the part I bolded. THAT is the part that differentiates.

[Home'scool]

My sister-in-law is married to a black man. Because my kids have always grown up with that being the case I knew that they never thought anything of it. They were just doing what kids do -- accepting people based on how those people treat them. So, they grew up loving their Aunt and Uncle, never knowing that some people think they should think differently.

 

I was SO happy when the day came when I felt they were old enough to say to them "You know, some people have a problem with your Aunt and Uncle being married." When they asked why, I explained that some people do not think whites and blacks should be married. That within my lifetime whites and blacks were actually prohibited from being married, and that people killed people over it.

 

They were shocked. Every time I explained something (like separate water fountains) they would just say "but why?" Separate schools, separate seats -- But why??? I thought it drove home the whole lesson of how ridiculous it is to judge people on the color of their skin.

 

And I am so glad that an interracial marriage was just a fact of life for them. Imagine if I shielded them everytime I saw an interracial couple? Imagine if I clenched my jaw and pushed their face down? Try coming back from that approach.

 

Why not let them see life as it is around them, and then explain that different people live different ways? You can explain that you don't agree with it - that it doesn't match up with your religious or political or moral beliefs - but why not let them start seeing it?

 

I can explain to a 5 year old why two men are kissing just as easily as why some person is standing on the street sucking in smelly smoke from a cigarette. They both probably seem ridiculous to a 5 year old.

 

Both choices, though, can be explained as lifestyle choices that perhaps we don't agree with, but that true peace is not a lack of conflict, but the presence of justice. And we do people justice by allowing for different lifestyles because people will never all act, think, live or be alike.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Home'scool

[HappyGrace]

Homosexuality is CLEARLY sin in the Bible, specialmama-you know that. Christians don't "perceive" it as sin, it is absolutely crystal clear in the Bible that it IS sin. It is an abomination to the Lord. If people you know are gay AND Christian, something is wrong there and we can pray for the Spirit to help them. It sounds like they are convicted, and are praying for strength against Satan's temptations. I cannot believe God would make people that way and then call it an abomination.

 

And of course, no one is perfect by the Bible's standards-several verses attest to that-that is one of the reasons why we have the Law-to show that we need Christ. I sin every day of my life, sadly, even as a Christian-I need grace every day.

 

Now BEHAVIOR of Christians toward homosexual people is also a crystal clear issue, but one that is unfortunately often way off kilter-we are to be the love of Christ to them. We are not to judge, just to love, and to preach the Good News. Not ram it down their throats either, preach the truth in love.

Edited May 20, 2009 by HappyGrace

[Night Elf]

Here's the thing that concerns me. Sin IS sin, period. Why should we tolerate it at all? I don't want my children exposed to ANY of the sins you mentioned. I want my children to hide their faces to all sin. In fact, I shield them as much and for as long as I can. Yet I do teach them to hate the sin but love the sinner, just as Jesus did.

 

So since the Bible says that all people are sinners, do you teach your children to hate you and themselves? They are exposed to sin every day according to the Bible. How do you shield a child from themselves? Of course I've seen some people talk about spanking the sin out of the children. So who spanks the sin out of adults?

[Home'scool]

An abomination to the Lord? I hope the Lord finds my efforts to "do unto others as I would have them do unto me" to offset anything I missed that he wanted me to do. How can you follow the golden rule and be an abomination?

 

And something is crystal clear in the Bible? What about "Judging not" and "Turning the other cheek"? I think mortal man "perceives" a lot that he cloaks as absolutes.

[specialmama]

Homosexuality is CLEARLY sin in the Bible, specialmama. Christians don't "perceive" it as sin, it is absolutely crystal clear in the Bible that it IS sin. It is an abomination to the Lord. If people you know are proudly calling themselves gay AND Christian, something is wrong there and we can pray for the Spirit to bring conviction. It sounds like they are convicted, and are praying for strength against Satan's temptations. I cannot believe God would make people that way and then call it an abomination.

 

And of course, no one is perfect by the Bible's standards-several verses attest to that-that is one of the reasons why we have the Law-to show that we need Christ. I sin every day of my life, sadly, even as a Christian-I need grace every day.

 

Now BEHAVIOR of Christians toward homosexual people is also a crystal clear issue, but one that is unfortunately often way off kilter-we are to be the love of Christ to them. We are not to judge, just to love, and to preach the Good News. Not ram it down their throats either, preach the truth in love.

 

I never said it wasn't a sin. Read back. I used the word percieve because another poster said I perceived it as a sin, which is not what I said. Wow, this can get twisted fast! It is possible for a gay person to be a Christian, just like an adultress can be Christian. I never said "proudly", did I? They have accepted His gift of forgiveness and they are on a walk to becoming more and more like Him. Do they remain in their sin? Well, if so, then they need to grow in their faith! We all do, we are all a work in progress!

 

Who can be God's counsellor? He allows things (handicaps, etc.) to happen to people to cause them to grow and glorify Him. Who knows if they're wired differently? We may not know until we get there. The bible is silent on this topic (of wiring) so nobody knows for sure.

[HappyGrace]

H'scool-pride is also an abomination to the Lord-also sin, one I do a LOT. He didn't "wire" us that way though-it is the fall that brought all sin. And we are not to judge-I never judged in what I said-I simply quoted how GOD looks at it. In fact, I said the opposite-that we're to treat them with love because we've been forgiven our horrendous sins.

 

s'mama-I went back and edited the proudly part quickly after I read your initial post again and I also added the last part about them being convicted and trying to turn from it-in fact, we were probably cross-posting! Anyway, handicaps are not called an abomination to the Lord-I believe He does allow handicaps for the reasons you said.

 

(Totally not a personal attack on you, btw. I didn't even read the whole thread, so I probably shouldn't have posted-sorry for any misunderstanding!!! Bowing out now-that'll teach me to read the whole thread next time! And anyway, I do NOT agree in any way with what the woman on the bus did-she is clearly teaching hate and fear.)

Edited May 20, 2009 by HappyGrace

[Mrs Mungo]

Well, what is or isn't a sin is a religious issue. And since we live in a religiously plural society, we're just going to have to learn to live with others behaving in ways that we think are sinful but they don't.

 

I wear pants, drink coffee, wear tank tops, and eat shrimp in public. I lack the shame to hide these sins.;)

 

:iagree:

[Night Elf]

It is an abomination to the Lord. If people you know are gay AND Christian, something is wrong there and we can pray for the Spirit to help them. It sounds like they are convicted, and are praying for strength against Satan's temptations. I cannot believe God would make people that way and then call it an abomination.

 

So, if people you know are liars AND Christian, something is wrong there and we can pray...

 

So, if people you know are adulterers AND Christian, something is wrong there and we can pray...

 

If you ask me, no one should be allowed to be a Christian because by their own definition they are sinners and are an abomination to God. This is one of the things I'm trying to talk to a Christian counselor about. I just can't get past all hatred and mudraking in the name of God. It just blows my mind. I just keep thinking that if God truly wants his followers to believe this stuff, then I really have no desire to follow him. If he were a man, people would label him crazy. I honestly don't think most Christians would follow Jesus if he were to come back today. They wouldn't believe it was really him unless they saw a miracle performed and then have it proved that nothing slight of hand was done. I really can make no sense of it all!

[HappyGrace]

Night Elf-totally right-liars and Christians, etc.-we all need to pray for each other, that the Spirit would help us not to stumble. I need prayer-we all do! I NEVER SAID hate them or judge them!!! I AM "them"! I'm a liar, I'm an adultress when I look at a hot guy with lust, etc.! I need prayer! I need grace! I am a horrible SINNER and that's what makes me rely on Christ completely. I am as bad or worse than any person whose sin is homosexuality-my sins just have different names-I'm lost in my sin but for Christ. We ALL are-that's the whole point of Christianity and why we are so amazed and awed by what Christ did for us "while we were yet sinners."

Edited May 20, 2009 by HappyGrace

[Mrs Mungo]

So, if people you know are liars AND Christian, something is wrong there and we can pray...

 

So, if people you know are adulterers AND Christian, something is wrong there and we can pray...

 

If you ask me, no one should be allowed to be a Christian because by their own definition they are sinners and are an abomination to God. This is one of the things I'm trying to talk to a Christian counselor about. I just can't get past all hatred and mudraking in the name of God.

 

I think this is where non-Christians and Christians come to an impasse. Christians believe *everyone* is a sinner. There has only been *one* perfect person. He gave His life so that we could be free of the consequences of sin by just believing in Him. So, calling someone a sinner isn't necessarily muckraking. It's just a fact. I'm a sinner, my pastor is a sinner, we are all sinners and we all struggle with that. Christianity doesn't expect you to be perfect, it expects you to be imperfect.

[Night Elf]

I am as bad or worse than any person whose sin is homosexuality-my sins just have different names-I'm lost in my sin but for Christ. We ALL are-that's the whole point of Christianity and why we are so amazed and awed by what Christ did for us "while we were yet sinners."

 

And if I could find a church with people who think like you, I'd join in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I don't see that attitude in the Christians I meet.

[specialmama]

s'mama-I went back and edited the proudly part quickly after I read your initial post again and I also added the last part about them being convicted and trying to turn from it-in fact, we were probably cross-posting! Anyway, handicaps are not called an abomination to the Lord-I believe He does allow handicaps for the reasons you said.

 

(Totally not a personal attack on you, btw. I didn't even read the whole thread, so I probably shouldn't have posted-sorry for any misunderstanding!!! Bowing out now-that'll teach me to read the whole thread next time! And anyway, I do NOT agree in any way with what the woman on the bus did-she is clearly teaching hate and fear.)

 

Hey, no probs. :001_smile:

[Night Elf]

I think this is where non-Christians and Christians come to an impasse. Christians believe *everyone* is a sinner. There has only been *one* perfect person. He gave His life so that we could be free of the consequences of sin by just believing in Him. So, calling someone a sinner isn't necessarily muckraking. It's just a fact. I'm a sinner, my pastor is a sinner, we are all sinners and we all struggle with that. Christianity doesn't expect you to be perfect, it expects you to be imperfect.

 

But not all Christians believe that, or else their actions would match their words. I see some Christians call others sinners and shun them which I see as coming across as holier than thou. The woman on the bus in the OP, for example, obviously has a hatred for gay people. Does she equally hate sinners with other labels, thinking of the 10 commandments here.

 

I don't mind if a Christian calls me a sinner. But I do find it horrible that they think less of me because I'm a sinner. Why should I be cast so low in their hearts and minds when they are sinning as well? And when I call them on it, as I really have, I get the whole speech about how God washed away their sins. They really make it sound like once they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they never sin again. It just boggles my mind! I've accepted Jesus into my heart. I've been baptized. So in their eyes, I should be sin-free, yet they call me a sinner and shun me. It's hard to want to remain in a group of people who are so ignorant or skewed in their thinking.

 

Obviously not all Christians think that way or feel that way. But when those types of Christians are trying to witness to others, they aren't going to be successful and the people being witnessed to will walk away knowing little of the Truth. Don't you think?

[Mrs Mungo]

But not all Christians believe that, or else their actions would match their words. I see some Christians call others sinners and shun them which I see as coming across as holier than thou. The woman on the bus in the OP, for example, obviously has a hatred for gay people. Does she equally hate sinners with other labels, thinking of the 10 commandments here.

 

Oh, I *completely* agree with you. I think there are a lot of *people* (not just Christians) who look down upon people whose beliefs differ from their own. I try really, really, really, really hard not to do that. I try to accept people where they are and love them for their strengths and the great things about them because almost everyone is great in some way. But I'm human and I fail as often as anyone else does at anything they struggle in.

[Marylou]

Easy Christianity

 

http://www.vor.org/truth/sew/easychr/easych11.html

[HeatherLynn]

 

Who can be God's counsellor? He allows things (handicaps, etc.) to happen to people to cause them to grow and glorify Him. Who knows if they're wired differently? We may not know until we get there. The bible is silent on this topic (of wiring) so nobody knows for sure.

 

Exactly. What about those born with ambiguous genitalia? What does the Bible say about their sexuality? It is a sexual organ deformity. People are born with different wiring in their brains every day. They may look "normal" but not be. So, while a person may look female, their brain very well could be male. So might their soul. I cannot see either of those things so it is not my place to pass judgement on them.

 

So, if people you know are liars AND Christian, something is wrong there and we can pray...

 

So, if people you know are adulterers AND Christian, something is wrong there and we can pray...

 

If you ask me, no one should be allowed to be a Christian because by their own definition they are sinners and are an abomination to God. This is one of the things I'm trying to talk to a Christian counselor about. I just can't get past all hatred and mudraking in the name of God. It just blows my mind. I just keep thinking that if God truly wants his followers to believe this stuff, then I really have no desire to follow him. If he were a man, people would label him crazy. I honestly don't think most Christians would follow Jesus if he were to come back today. They wouldn't believe it was really him unless they saw a miracle performed and then have it proved that nothing slight of hand was done. I really can make no sense of it all!

 

I would follow him. I am a dirty dirty person and he loves me just the way I am. I work everyday to be better at being his disciple and following him. As I said, I used to be one of *these* others trying to label other's sin. My walk with God has strengthened into a convection to see more through his eyes. Whether they be homosexual, heterosexual, Muslim, schizophrenic, suicidal, Jew, Christian, Buddhist, etc, he still loves them all the same. He has not commanded me to show them the error of their ways, he has commanded me to love my neighbor as myself, and that is what I do. So yes, I would be so happy to follow him.

[Marylou]

So since the Bible says that all people are sinners, do you teach your children to hate you and themselves? They are exposed to sin every day according to the Bible. How do you shield a child from themselves? Of course I've seen some people talk about spanking the sin out of the children. So who spanks the sin out of adults?

 

These are excellent questions!

 

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. From Romans 7

 

(emphasis added)

[teamturner]

I think the difference comes down to tolerance. I feel like many do not tolerate my beliefs which are of a more Bible belieiving nature...well at least different Bible interpretations than yours. I don't think that lady on the train showed tolerance, however.

[theresatwist]

I haven't posted before. I'm trying to give myself a classical education and so I sometimes read these forums. That said, this is an issue equally close to my heart.

 

I have a sibling whom I love very much and who is gay. He is a wonderful, loving, and contributing member of society. No human being is perfect. But he is no less worthy of being loved and respected than any other human being. His sexuality does not make him in any way a less worthy human being. I'm not being "politically correct." We're not talking about political correctness. We're talking about beautiful human beings who deserve to be treated with respect.

[Mrs Mungo]

I haven't posted before. I'm trying to give myself a classical education and so I sometimes read these forums. That said, this is an issue equally close to my heart.

 

I have a sibling whom I love very much and who is gay. He is a wonderful, loving, and contributing member of society. No human being is perfect. But he is no less worthy of being loved and respected than any other human being. His sexuality does not make him in any way a less worthy human being. I'm not being "politically correct." We're not talking about political correctness. We're talking about beautiful human beings who deserve to be treated with respect.

 

Agreed. :) :grouphug:

[runninmommy]

Oh, I *completely* agree with you. I think there are a lot of *people* (not just Christians) who look down upon people whose beliefs differ from their own. I try really, really, really, really hard not to do that. I try to accept people where they are and love them for their strengths and the great things about them because almost everyone is great in some way. But I'm human and I fail as often as anyone else does at anything they struggle in.

 

Mrs. Mungo,

 

You speak the words from my heart.

 

I am so glad your back.

[OnTheBrink]

Well, I usually DO glare at politicians, LOL. I also think that in many cases they ARE outsmarted by monkeys, fish, and yes, even birds. Does that make me horrible?:D

 

Here's the thing that concerns me. Sin IS sin, period. Why should we tolerate it at all? I don't want my children exposed to ANY of the sins you mentioned. I want my children to hide their faces to all sin. In fact, I shield them as much and for as long as I can. Yet I do teach them to hate the sin but love the sinner, just as Jesus did.

 

The thing that bothers me most about this topic is that in today's world, we are forced to tolerate sin lest we be called "stupid," "mean," or (gasp) "politically incorrect." We are also forced to expose our youngest children to sin because others lack the shame to hide it.

 

:iagree:

 

To be honest, I'd have been uncomfortable on that train, too. Even though my EX is gay, he has never displayed affection to his boyfriend in front of me or dd. I'd prefer not to see homosexual displays of affection. I also don't want to see heterosexual displays of affection and I don't allow my daughter to see them, if I can help it. Yes, I do shelter her. She's a child; it's my job to shelter her at this stage of her life. At the same time, it's just flat out wrong to be unkind or rude to someone because they're gay. Sin doesn't justify sin.

 

Had I been on that train with my dd, I'd have just gotten off at the next stop and caught a different train. One shouldn't be forced to view what they find offensive, nor should one be ridiculed for adhering to their belief system.

 

And, I love Simon Cowell! :D

[Peek a Boo]

I think this is where non-Christians and Christians come to an impasse. Christians believe *everyone* is a sinner. There has only been *one* perfect person. He gave His life so that we could be free of the consequences of sin by just believing in Him. So, calling someone a sinner isn't necessarily muckraking. It's just a fact. I'm a sinner, my pastor is a sinner, we are all sinners and we all struggle with that. Christianity doesn't expect you to be perfect, it expects you to be imperfect.

 

:iagree:

 

And if I could find a church with people who think like you, I'd join in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I don't see that attitude in the Christians I meet.

 

I agree that it is very difficult to find ANY group that has people w/ non-idiotic attitudes that think like [you/I/we/they] do. there's a lot of give and take in a relationship/community, and manymany people tend to cling to one verse over another:

 

Christ said turn the other cheek, but He also said to repent.

OT verses vs life under the New Covenant: Romans 1 is pretty darn clear about *defining* homosexuality and other immoral sex acts, but scripture is clear everywhere else on how to interact w/ love, and that sometimes Godly love mandates a physical boundary from other people.

There's two sides to that coin: calling out blatant, unrepentant sin and establishing boundaries yet still loving each other as a Child of God.

 

part of the issue w/ the homosexuality/Christianity/culture issue is that many people refuse to acknowledge the one area where scripture IS clear [esp under the new covenant in Christ]. It becomes a bigger battle than it really needs to be. few people say that lying is ok, stealing is ok, or murder is ok, yet are quick to point to those sins too......but there have been some good posts explaining what scripture says and what Christianity entails already, so i'll try to keep this short.

 

If he were a man, people would label him crazy. I honestly don't think most Christians would follow Jesus if he were to come back today. They wouldn't believe it was really him unless they saw a miracle performed and then have it proved that nothing slight of hand was done. I really can make no sense of it all!

 

um, that's exactly what happened the first time around.... :)

[Ibbygirl]

I haven't posted before. I'm trying to give myself a classical education and so I sometimes read these forums. That said, this is an issue equally close to my heart.

 

I have a sibling whom I love very much and who is gay. He is a wonderful, loving, and contributing member of society. No human being is perfect. But he is no less worthy of being loved and respected than any other human being. His sexuality does not make him in any way a less worthy human being. I'm not being "politically correct." We're not talking about political correctness. We're talking about beautiful human beings who deserve to be treated with respect.

:iagree::iagree: My cousin is such a wonderful person. I love him so much. For me, he is who he is. He's not my gay cousin, he's just my cousin whom I love very much. The fact that he is gay doesn't make me see him any different light. I love him no matter what. I pray for him because I know he is not born again. I pray for a lot of other family members to know Christ also who don't yet know Him. It's not a matter of gay or straight, tolerant or intolerant. I love my cousin, my cousin doesn't know the Lord and is stuck in sin, I pray for his salvation because I want to spend eternity with him.

 

btw, welcome to the boards. :)

[Ibbygirl]

And if I could find a church with people who think like you, I'd join in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I don't see that attitude in the Christians I meet.

 

 

I am sorry that you have had such bad experience with Christians. We are sinners saved by grace and nothing more. Jesus went to the cross for us while we were still trapped in our sin because He had GREAT mercy and compassion on us. A lot of us, myself included, were SERIOUSLY road worn by the time we came to Christ. I was born again in 1989 and I myself experienced great judgement from others in my church because I was still struggling with my sin.

 

Sometimes when people come to Christ they are completely delivered at the point of salvation and I think that is wonderful, but for a lot of us, myself included, we are born again, but we have to work through our issues through the process of sanctification. It is a lifelong process. I am not the same that I was back in 1989. Every year I am better than the year before and I hope to be more and more like Christ as I continue on this journey.

 

One thing I find tremendous comfort in is that Jesus never told us to follow His followers, He said, "Follow Me". Christians are not perfect just because they are Christians, we are sinners saved by an amazing grace. That is all.

 

My heart goes out to you Night Elf because I can hear your struggle in your words. You seem like a person who is genuinely seeking to know the truth and to find understanding. I pray that God will reveal Himself to you and that you will truly know Him and His love. I pray that other people's behavior would not be a deterrant to your seeking the Lord. We are all sinners saved by grace. If we were able to be righteous of our own accord we wouldn't have needed a Savior in the first place. The fact that we do need a Savior is proof that we are all in the same boat. All of us are drowning in sin, all of us need salvation, all of us would be lost without the love and great mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ. :grouphug: I pray that God would open the gates of heaven and shower down His love and blessings upon you. God bless you.:grouphug:

[Mama Bear]

<<"I will also say that this must have seen the most benign homosexual parade since Sam met Adam. Walking past one in DC and watching the odd one on the news it seems that the signs and behavior are generally more extreme than what you saw. But then again, as I said, maybe you came across the most benign one in recent history.">>

 

Or perhaps, since the majority of your exposure seems to have come from news footage, what you're seeing is the visual hyperbole which one usually finds shown in regards to these hot-button issues.

 

While excessive PDA in any form, with any sexual orientation makes me twitch, gay friends of mine have always made extra efforts to err on the side of discretion, often leading those in their company to be uncomfortable because the elephant in the room couldn't then be more obvious. But these friends are quite sensitive to others' sensibilities and generally go out of their way to not offend.

 

As to bawdy parades, I'm reminded of the recent and very heterosexual footage of St. Patrick's Day parades. While those parades were certainly not celebrating a saint ;) , there would have been nothing wrong, IMO, with folks gathering to be silly and holler and dance in the streets, whatever the excuse. But, as with anything, throw in a little (or a lot of) alcohol, the impression that you're amongst like-minded (risque) friends, and suddenly, otherwise firmly intact inhibitions have gone AWOL. (Spring break in Cancun comes to mind.)

 

The various gay folks I've known over the years sure as shootin' wouldn't be caught dead behaving like those very straight street revelers did. But then perhaps I was also just happening across visual hyperbole as delivered by the news stations.

 

An aside (not related to pqr), when these kinds of discussion break out, I often go running for one of the logic texts I have sitting on the shelf, astounded at how easily good sense and common courtesy flee. While I realize that this medium allows for plenty of misunderstanding, surely all us smart and competent people can discuss calmly? Sans Ad Hominem attacks, etc.? :D

 

Just one more thing. Hopefully not inflammatory. When I hear people responding to others in disgust or fear, it makes my heart hurt. When a child comments on how animals would be smarter than those people, the first thing that springs to mind is Jesus command to love one another. Love is dang hard to explain to a child (sometimes impossible to explain even to ourselves), but when they see it modeled -- or something else in it's stead -- they get it. They absorb it through their pores and then excrete it in their dealings with their own children and the whole rest of the planet. I certainly agree that each of us is entitled to our own opinion and wouldn't dream of trying to convince anyone here to abandon their belief system, whatever it is. I don't think it's appropriate to try and talk parents out of their deeply held beliefs. But. It still makes me flinch to see a very young person so entrenched in something that marginalizes God's own children, however "imperfect" they may be (depending, of course, on what you believe).

 

YMMV, yadda-yadda...

Edited May 21, 2009 by Mama Bear

[PineFarmMom]

I wrote something else, but never mind. I think the gammot has been covered here. I hope anyone who doesn't know Christ will see from some posts that He is full of mercy and waiting to be a friend to anyone struggling with any sin. He certainly helps me with mine on a daily basis.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Texas T

[theresatwist]

I just want to share this. My brother, Evan, was not treated respectfully by many of his classmates in middle school and high school because he is gay. When he complained to my parents they told him they thought he should be doing some volunteer work. He began volunteering at a shelter for women who have been physically abused by their husbands. He started the work because my parents wanted him to become involved in the community. He has since graduated from college. He is now the second highest ranking person at the shelter. He's been doing this work at the same shelter for nearly fifteen years! These women don't know if he's gay or straight. That is completely irrelevant to them, as it should be. They just know that he has a kind and pure heart. I'm sure that God is proud of the work he does. The world would be a far crueler place without people like him.

[Mommy22alyns]

As to bawdy parades, I'm reminded of the recent and very heterosexual footage of St. Patrick's Day parades. While those parades were certainly not celebrating a saint ;) , there would have been nothing wrong, IMO, with folks gathering to be silly and holler and dance in the streets, whatever the excuse. But, as with anything, throw in a little (or a lot of) alcohol, the impression that you're amongst like-minded (risque) friends, and suddenly, otherwise firmly intact inhibitions have gone AWOL. (Spring break in Cancun comes to mind.)

 

 

 

 

Mardi Gras comes to mind as well... :001_huh:

[HeatherLynn]

I just want to share this. My brother, Evan, was not treated respectfully by many of his classmates in middle school and high school because he is gay. When he complained to my parents they told him they thought he should be doing some volunteer work. He began volunteering at a shelter for women who have been physically abused by their husbands. He started the work because my parents wanted him to become involved in the community. He has since graduated from college. He is now the second highest ranking person at the shelter. He's been doing this work at the same shelter for nearly fifteen years! These women don't know if he's gay or straight. That is completely irrelevant to them, as it should be. They just know that he has a kind and pure heart. I'm sure that God is proud of the work he does. The world would be a far crueler place without people like him.

 

What a better place this world is with him. Shame on the people who would look at him and see him just as a sexuality and not as the human he is. Why do people think shunning one based on their sexuality is any different than shunning one for their skin color?

[Jackie in AR]

All she was doing was teaching hate and intolerance. And with ridiculous arguments.

 

So why is it OK for you to be *intolerant* of this mom's behavior and opinion? I'm truly not trying to be snarky; I really don't understand this.

 

The mom in question doesn't agree with the homosexual lifestyle, and shares her beliefs with her children. And then you accuse her of being intolerant. Aren't *you* being intolerant by not allowing her to form her own opinions and share them in any way she sees fit with her own children?

 

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with her behavior. I'm just trying to logically understand where you're coming from.

[Home'scool]

The mom in question doesn't agree with the homosexual lifestyle, and shares her beliefs with her children. And then you accuse her of being intolerant. Aren't *you* being intolerant by not allowing her to form her own opinions and share them in any way she sees fit with her own children?

 

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with her behavior. I'm just trying to logically understand where you're coming from.

 

As I have said before in a post,

They would be raised better if the mother explained that they might not agree with the lifestyle and to avert their eyes, but that everyone has value. That's not a parenting style, that's human kindness.

 

And her parenting style was manifesting itself in the hateful glares her youngest was giving me, and in the smug comments her oldest was making. She should be very proud

 

This sentiment about being dumber than an animal is the wrong way to teach a child your viewpoint, don't you agree?

 

The offense was not so much with her negative opinion about gays (although I do think she is wrong, I do not believe everyone has to think like me.) It was the obviously wrong way she was translating that opinion to her children. You can disagree with someone without promoting hate. My intolerance in this case comes not from her opinons, but in the hate that is then expressed by her children.

 

Call me crazy, but that just seems wrong.

[HeatherLynn]

So why is it OK for you to be *intolerant* of this mom's behavior and opinion? I'm truly not trying to be snarky; I really don't understand this.

 

The mom in question doesn't agree with the homosexual lifestyle, and shares her beliefs with her children. And then you accuse her of being intolerant. Aren't *you* being intolerant by not allowing her to form her own opinions and share them in any way she sees fit with her own children?

 

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with her behavior. I'm just trying to logically understand where you're coming from.

 

I say that there should NEVER be tolerance of hate. Who in their right mind thinks that we should tolerate hate? Tolerance of one's beliefs is one thing. Outright hatred is another.

 

Think of it this way. The train is loaded with black people, and the Mom and the little girl are making racial slurs and clearly expressing their hatred of the other race. IS that somehow worse? NO! They are both equally as sickening and gut wrenching. No excuse at all for hatred.

[StaceyinLA]

that though the girl being rude was unacceptable, I have no problem with a person who doesn't want their children exposed to that lifestyle. This is not like racism. A person being a different race is a lot different from a person with a chosen, immoral lifestyle. And though I try to be accepting and kind to all people, and am NOT homophobic, I would certainly not be pleased to be thrown into the middle of something I wasn't comfortable with. I certainly would not have liked my kids exposed to it at certain ages either.

 

I think the "in your face" thing with homosexuality is absolutely ridiculous. It is in every sitcom, every movie & every magazine. (And yes, I do avoid most of these things because I, personally, don't agree with it) I think tolerance is overrated. People should not HAVE to tolerate something they aren't comfortable with. Goodness, how many people out there tolerate Christianity being pushed upon them? Would the media have witnessing in every movie, sitcom or magazine? No, because it would OFFEND people. Well, being surrounded by homosexuals offends people to, and I just think we also have to accept that as a fact.

 

ETA that I DO have issues with the hatred shown. I am a very compassionate person and I am not judgmental (you would know it by my kids' friends, many of whom people would judge on appearance without batting an eye). I just think there is a side to this that we have to look at and realize that people have a right to be uncomfortable with it.

Edited May 21, 2009 by StaceyinLA

[Melinda in VT]

Goodness, how many people out there tolerate Christianity being pushed upon them? Would the media have witnessing in every movie, sitcom or magazine? No, because it would OFFEND people. Well, being surrounded by homosexuals offends people to, and I just think we also have to accept that as a fact.

 

There is a big difference with being offended by someone trying to convince you of something and being offended by someone simply existing. The parallel here isn't "Christianity being pushed upon them," it is "being surrounded by Christians."

 

I understand that many people think homosexuality is a choice, so let's compare it to another choice--bi-racial marriage.

 

There are people who are offended by bi-racial marriage. Bi-racial marriage is a choice. Should people in a bi-racial hetero relationship not act married in public because it might offend people?

[Mrs Mungo]

The mom in question doesn't agree with the homosexual lifestyle, and shares her beliefs with her children. And then you accuse her of being intolerant. Aren't *you* being intolerant by not allowing her to form her own opinions and share them in any way she sees fit with her own children?

 

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with her behavior. I'm just trying to logically understand where you're coming from.

 

It's the *behavior* of the mom and kids that is in question in this case, not the mom's beliefs.

 

When I was a teenager I got into an argument with my Sunday School teachers because the lesson one day was on inter-racial dating and how wrong it is. In retrospect, I bet they didn't plan ahead and didn't see it coming but the fact remains that it was using The Bible to excuse bigotry and even a dash of prejudice. It happens all the time. What is or is not a sin *in no way* can excuse treating anyone badly because we *all* fall short.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Mrs Mungo
typo

[StaceyinLA]

and that something is that homosexuality is normal and we should all accept it as normal, that homosexuals should be allowed to marry, that what they are doing isn't at all wrong. That is why it is in our faces all the time - it's to get us to the point of agreeing that it is perfectly okay, to not see it as an objectionable lifestyle.

 

And let me just say, there are MANY people who would be disgusted sitting on a bus with a bunch of Christians. Let's not pretend there isn't intolerance and hatred for Christians all around the globe.

Edited May 21, 2009 by StaceyinLA

[Mrs Mungo]

and that something is that homosexuality is normal and we should all accept it as normal, that homosexuals should be allowed to marry, that what they are doing isn't at all wrong. That is why it is in our faces all the time - it's to get us to the point of agreeing that it is perfectly okay.

 

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, imo, and I refuse to address it here.

 

And let me just say, there are MANY people who would be disgusted sitting on a bus with a bunch of Christians. Let's not pretend there isn't intolerance and hatred for Christians all around the globe.

 

Around the globe? Certainly. In the US? Not so much. I think you would be extremely shocked if you and your kids prayed over your meal and then were treated with disgust by people in the restaurant.

[theresatwist]

It's hard for me to argue with you because I believe there are an increasingly large number of studies strongly suggesting that homosexuality is not a choice-- that people are simply born that way. Frankly, given how hard it can be to be homosexual in our society--and we seem to agree that homophobia does exist--I don't know why anyone would choose to be homosexual any more than one would choose to be a leper. Given my strong conviction that homosexuality is innate, I don't think discrimination based on someone's sexual orientation is any different from discrimination based on someone's race or religious beliefs. Obviously, we're probably not going to reach agreement here. I'm just stating how I see it. Whether the particular woman is question was acting in a discriminatory manner or not is an argument I think I don't want to get into.

 

 

that though the girl being rude was unacceptable, I have no problem with a person who doesn't want their children exposed to that lifestyle. This is not like racism. A person being a different race is a lot different from a person with a chosen, immoral lifestyle. And though I try to be accepting and kind to all people, and am NOT homophobic, I would certainly not be pleased to be thrown into the middle of something I wasn't comfortable with. I certainly would not have liked my kids exposed to it at certain ages either.

 

I think the "in your face" thing with homosexuality is absolutely ridiculous. It is in every sitcom, every movie & every magazine. (And yes, I do avoid most of these things because I, personally, don't agree with it) I think tolerance is overrated. People should not HAVE to tolerate something they aren't comfortable with. Goodness, how many people out there tolerate Christianity being pushed upon them? Would the media have witnessing in every movie, sitcom or magazine? No, because it would OFFEND people. Well, being surrounded by homosexuals offends people to, and I just think we also have to accept that as a fact.

 

ETA that I DO have issues with the hatred shown. I am a very compassionate person and I am not judgmental (you would know it by my kids' friends, many of whom people would judge on appearance without batting an eye). I just think there is a side to this that we have to look at and realize that people have a right to be uncomfortable with it.

[PineFarmMom]

and that something is that homosexuality is normal and we should all accept it as normal, that homosexuals should be allowed to marry, that what they are doing isn't at all wrong. That is why it is in our faces all the time - it's to get us to the point of agreeing that it is perfectly okay, to not see it as an objectionable lifestyle.

 

.

 

:iagree:I specifically remember being in college and reading information about the plan for the next 15-20 years of slowly forcing it on us. At the time I thought, "No way!" I now believe it was an accurate portrayal of what was coming.

 

I'm very weary of the comparison of homosexuality with interracial/bi-racial/anything racial. They don't have a thing to do with each other. It's an illogical comparison. If I were of a different race, a race that was continuously oppressed or treated as less-than, I would be offended at the comparison. A lifestyle choice is hardly something to compare with a race that someone is born into.

[Impish]

There is a big difference with being offended by someone trying to convince you of something and being offended by someone simply existing. The parallel here isn't "Christianity being pushed upon them," it is "being surrounded by Christians."

 

I understand that many people think homosexuality is a choice, so let's compare it to another choice--bi-racial marriage.

 

There are people who are offended by bi-racial marriage. Bi-racial marriage is a choice. Should people in a bi-racial hetero relationship not act married in public because it might offend people?

:iagree:

I didn't realize that my marriage was biracial until a coworker asked if that's why my parents weren't attending my wedding, because my groom-to-be wasn't 'white'. I honestly hadn't thought anything about it, he was just himself, not a skin tone.

 

That being said, I've had issues both from his birth family for being white, because some of them wanted him to marry another First Nations woman, and been verbally accosted by First Nations women when out with my dh. Heck, I was even accused by one of having an affair when Tazzie was a baby, because he was 'too white' :001_huh:

 

What astounded me most is dh's grandfather, who is 103 now showed absolutely NO hesitation in his welcoming me and accepting and loving me as a granddaughter. When we brought our son up to see him, he told my dh to take good care of me, and thanked me for such a beautiful great grandson...and then when we went up again when Tazzie was about a year and a half and I was visibly pregnant with Princess, he was delighted and told dh that he better treasure me...and give me a break from having babies for a while :D

 

And honestly, I get kind of tired of the, "Well, people don't tolerate US!" argument that tends to evolve in these threads. It doesn't excuse teaching and acting in hatred.

 

Like Night Elf, I've had the experiences of being shunned because I was a 'sinner' by 'good Christian people' when I was a single parent. It kept me away from pursuing my faith for many, many years, because I didn't want to be seen in the same light as the ppl I'd dealt with. I didn't want to have ppl recoil and be afraid of what hateful judgement I might spew at them.

 

Thankfully, I've been lucky enough to meet ppl that aren't that way...unfortunately, the mom on the bus obviously wouldn't fit in the latter category.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm very weary of the comparison of homosexuality with interracial/bi-racial/anything racial. They don't have a thing to do with each other. It's an illogical comparison. If I were of a different race, a race that was continuously oppressed or treated as less-than, I would be offended at the comparison. A lifestyle choice is hardly something to compare with a race that someone is born into.

 

Marrying someone outside your race is a choice and one that I was told in the church was wrong from a Biblical standpoint. Many people *are* still offended by bi-racial couples. Therefore, I find the comparison accurate.

 

I'm also Native American and Irish, it was yeeeeeeears before my grandmother would tell my mom and I her mother's name because her mother was Sioux and had name that wasn't a typical white name. My other grandmother sued the government on behalf of Native Americans and won. Just so you understand I know about minorities and oppression.

[Peek a Boo]

What is or is not a sin *in no way* can excuse treating anyone badly because we *all* fall short.

 

another ITA :)

 

there is a difference between treating someone BADLY and deciding to not invest in a relationship w/ someone.

Just because someone doesn't want to hang with us doesn't make the other person bad or acting badly. ;)

Frankly, given how hard it can be to be homosexual in our society--and we seem to agree that homophobia does exist--

 

I will agree that homophobia does exist, but I wouldn't be too quick to translate an intense dislike for a particular sin as a phobia across the board --there is a difference. I hear a lot of people call Christians who speak out against the homosexual lifestyle "homophobic" --that's a gross misunderstanding of the issue.