pqr Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Yes, it did. That's my point. It took a change to the definition of marriage in the CA state constitution to prevent gay marriage. We would view this differently. I would argue that it took a Constitutional change to preserve the definition of marriage from those who would twist it and change it into something that it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Home'scool Posted May 22, 2009 Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 Since this post has expanded beyond my original story I'll throw out this question: I keep asking my husband this(he is against gay marriage so it makes for some very interesting conversations): Since marriage licenses are issued by the government, name me one other "right" that I have as a citizen that another American citizen does not have? We should all either be able to get marriage licenses, or all have civil unions. I mean, enough of this "seperate but equal" stuff. It didn't work before. This should not be a religious issue. The government gives out the marriage licenses. All those proclaiming beliefs laid out in the bible should not be able to hold back people who do not believe in the bible and are trying to gain something as a U.S. citizen. Those two things do not go together. As long as I am of the correct age (ex. driviers license, buying alcohol, voting) and don't have a criminal background (ex. gun ownership) I can partake in all the things the government offers. So, as Americans (not Christians -- I am not talking about forcing churches to allow gays to marry - if you want to get married in a church then you should abide by their rules) why is this the only right afforded by the government that we are withholding from a minority of people? Neither myself nor my husband, much to his chagrin, can come up with a right that is denied to some but not others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 If there is a group out there whose self-declared set of beliefs include teaching children to hate and I have stepped on their toes' date=' then I apologize.:001_huh: I don't mean to oppress!!! What? This thread is going downhill faster every minute! To address the "educate or instill values .... contrary to the parents" -- my point of pulling the child aside to ask her the question was a rhetorical one. I really really truly don't get how people who believe that gays are dumber than animals (and seriously, what percentage of the population do you think believes this?) Maybe you were hoping you would find some on this forum? I haven't read each post, but so far I haven't found anyone agreeing with that lady align this belief when they meet smart, creative or kind gays? I was putting the point out there as a "so here's the part I don't get ..." And if I had the opportunity of speaking with the mother, I would have asked her this question. Because I just.don't.get.it. Right. It just struck me, when I hear her young daughter speak, that I really was curious as to how they keep this opinion when there are a lot of very intelligent gay people out there. . Intellligent and wise are not synonyms :001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Since I am the OP I should probably address this point as it keeps coming up. To address the "re-educate ..... self-declared set of beliefs". Again' date=' I will state [b']I was NOT addressing her beliefs per se, but more[/b] HOW her beliefs were being translated to her children. My beliefs about gay marriage was not part of the scenario on the subway. It was beliefs about children being taught to hate. If there is a group out there whose self-declared set of beliefs include teaching children to hate and I have stepped on their toes, then I apologize.:001_huh: I don't mean to oppress!!! To address the "educate or instill values .... contrary to the parents" -- my point of pulling the child aside to ask her the question was a rhetorical one. I really really truly don't get how people who believe that gays are dumber than animals align this belief when they meet smart, creative or kind gays? I was putting the point out there as a "so here's the part I don't get ..." And if I had the opportunity of speaking with the mother, I would have asked her this question. Because I just.don't.get.it. When did questioning someones opinion turn into wanting to step in and dictate how she raised her children? I mean, I wouldn't trust this woman raising fleas, but I get that she has her opinion. It just struck me, when I hear her young daughter speak, that I really was curious as to how they keep this opinion when there are a lot of very intelligent gay people out there. (note: emphasis above is mine) I think you've answered your own question--You say you are not questioning her opinions or beliefs but rather how and why she is "translating them to her children." You go on to say you wouldn't trust her to "raise fleas" and are appalled by the degree of "hate" you perceived but that it is ok for the mother to have her own opinion. This is my point exactly-you express your displeasure in what she is raising her children to believe, to the point you are willing to intervene by confronting her were you to have the opportunity. Your issue isn't that the mother believes these thing but that she is raising her children with her values. I merely stated that the problem here that irritates me isn't about people's opinions of homosexuals but rather people's willingness to impose a set of beliefs (on any issue) on my children and believe that those opinions are of course the correct ones for my children to learn regardless of what I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Home'scool Posted May 22, 2009 Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 To address the "educate or instill values .... contrary to the parents" -- my point of pulling the child aside to ask her the question was a rhetorical one. I really really truly don't get how people who believe that gays are dumber than animals (and seriously, what percentage of the population do you think believes this?) Maybe you were hoping you would find some on this forum? I haven't read each post, but so far I haven't found anyone agreeing with that lady align this belief when they meet smart, creative or kind gays? Actually, I have heard this sentiment many times before. In the past and recently. That is how I knew what she was referring to when she said "monkeys and fish are smarter." It's actually an opinon that has been around in a long time. And if I had the opportunity of speaking with the mother, I would have asked her this question. Because I just.don't.get.it. Right. What are you questioning here? That I wouldn't ask her the question (which I would?) or that I just don't get it? Because I really don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanamom Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 We would view this differently. I would argue that it took a Constitutional change to preserve the definition of marriage from those who would twist it and change it into something that it is not. Ok- I can agree that we view this differently. You are saying that the change to the CA Constitution was necessary to preserve the *intent* of the definition of marriage in CA? To clarify that "one man, one woman" was intended when the definition was established? That sounds very much like what the CA judges said (a while back) in interpreting the private school laws in CA... that those laws were never intended to cover homeschoolers and that therefore, "independent homeschoolers" (families who have established very small private schools in their homes) were in violation of the law. For a while there, it seemed that my right to homeschool was in danger. (At the time, I was homeschooling independently, and not through a public charter school.) I don't like seeing rights taken away from people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie in OR Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 I wouldn't trust this woman raising fleas' date=' [/quote'] Is that because she wouldn't do it like you?:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theresatwist Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Yes, exactly. I couldn't agree more. Also, why should we let families alone to raise their kids as they see fit (which I support), but condemn homosexuals for living how they see fit? All this condemnation of the "homosexual lifestyle" seems like you're stepping on to their turf. quote=Home'scool;966832]Since this post has expanded beyond my original story I'll throw out this question: I keep asking my husband this(he is against gay marriage so it makes for some very interesting conversations): Since marriage licenses are issued by the government, name me one other "right" that I have as a citizen that another American citizen does not have? We should all either be able to get marriage licenses, or all have civil unions. I mean, enough of this "seperate but equal" stuff. It didn't work before. This should not be a religious issue. The government gives out the marriage licenses. All those proclaiming beliefs laid out in the bible should not be able to hold back people who do not believe in the bible and are trying to gain something as a U.S. citizen. Those two things do not go together. As long as I am of the correct age (ex. driviers license, buying alcohol, voting) and don't have a criminal background (ex. gun ownership) I can partake in all the things the government offers. So, as Americans (not Christians -- I am not talking about forcing churches to allow gays to marry - if you want to get married in a church then you should abide by their rules) why is this the only right afforded by the government that we are withholding from a minority of people? Neither myself nor my husband, much to his chagrin, can come up with a right that is denied to some but not others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) What are you questioning here? That I wouldn't ask her the question (which I would?) or that I just don't get it? Because I really don't. No' date=' I am not questioning you, just agreeing--that's why I wrote "Right"![/color'] There are parents all over the world who teach their children to do naughty, wrong, sinful, disrespectful, ugly things. I don't see why you are so surprised to meet one on the subway! Maybe your OP should have been written like this. . . "Are there any of you out there whose parents taught them that homosexuals are (insert whatever word you want here) and now you believe the complete opposite or something very different? I think you would have gotten more of what you're looking for. Maybe not :001_smile: I guess I do have a question for you . . . would you have been as bothered by the lady and her child if the only thing the mom did was shield her child's eyes? No faces, no words, just shielding without making a scene about it? I don't know about you, but I do A LOT of shielding as a mom (and I'm not talking about homosexuality here). There's profanity, immodesty [i heard from this forum American Idol does this], vulgarity, Victoria Secret mega-posters at the mall, a day at the beach of all things, second-hand smoke, just to name a few. I'm glad you started this thread. With God's help I treat others with respect at all times, not because they believe exactly like I do, or because they treat me well first, but because they are human beings, males and females made in the image of God. Edited May 22, 2009 by dmmosher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 (note: emphasis above is mine) I think you've answered your own question--You say you are not questioning her opinions or beliefs but rather how and why she is "translating them to her children." You go on to say you wouldn't trust her to "raise fleas" and are appalled by the degree of "hate" you perceived but that it is ok for the mother to have her own opinion. This is my point exactly-you express your displeasure in what she is raising her children to believe, to the point you are willing to intervene by confronting her were you to have the opportunity. Your issue isn't that the mother believes these thing but that she is raising her children with her values. I merely stated that the problem here that irritates me isn't about people's opinions of homosexuals but rather people's willingness to impose a set of beliefs (on any issue) on my children and believe that those opinions are of course the correct ones for my children to learn regardless of what I believe. A child stating that 'monkeys and fish were smarter', to me, speaks of hatred. Sorry, but that's just not a comparison that a child comes up with out of the air, that's something that's been taught. I don't think that's a 'perceived' issue at all. To hear a child mouth such a thing...yeah, that would have had me rocked back on my heels. To teach a child to hate their fellow man, to discriminate and look down upon another person...Sorry, its just plain wrong to me. I don't honestly care what rationale/excuse/whatever it may be dressed up in or hid behind. It has nothing to do with religion in my view. Hate is hate. And not something a child should be learning from a parent...heaven knows there's too much out in the world as it is, to be learning to spread more of it. The Bible tells us to 'love thy neighbour' and 'hate the sin, love the sinner'. I don't know of anywhere that it instructs hating someone because of their sin, or teaching a child to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 A child stating that 'monkeys and fish were smarter', to me, speaks of hatred. Sorry, but that's just not a comparison that a child comes up with out of the air, that's something that's been taught. I don't think that's a 'perceived' issue at all. To hear a child mouth such a thing...yeah, that would have had me rocked back on my heels. To teach a child to hate their fellow man, to discriminate and look down upon another person...Sorry, its just plain wrong to me. I don't honestly care what rationale/excuse/whatever it may be dressed up in or hid behind. It has nothing to do with religion in my view. Hate is hate. And not something a child should be learning from a parent...heaven knows there's too much out in the world as it is, to be learning to spread more of it. The Bible tells us to 'love thy neighbour' and 'hate the sin, love the sinner'. I don't know of anywhere that it instructs hating someone because of their sin, or teaching a child to do so. Stop shouting at me please (turn off the bold button)...I've never said that I condone or approve of how this woman is handling this issue. As a matter of fact I said earlier that I think that she is lacking in the manners education department. I may or may not agree with what she is teaching her children but that is irrelevant to my point. My point is about parental rights. Whether or not I like what she is teaching is my problem. She still has the right to raise her children with a set of values she deems fit just as much as I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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