Dissatisfied w/ Neuropsych response

[Wishes]

Crossposting to Learning Challenges Board

In September I posted about my son’s neuropsych report and a few qualms that I had with it. I recently contacted the neuropych in regards to my son’s math skills and the likelihood of dyscalculia. My response is italicized.

I was also hoping to speak to you about his mathematics. As I continue work with him, I am becoming more concerned about math. I know you didn’t find dyscalculia in your testing, but here is what I am seeing. He has trouble determining the difference between 2 and 3 and between 4 and 5 amounts (on an abacus and also in items). He has issues with more and less. When we use a math balance, he would find that 2+2=4 for example. However, if the next one was something like 4+4, he would start with less numbers (4 again or even lower). Subitizing 5 has been challenging. I have been using Right Start A with him which is a strong visual/active learning base, however, I am at the point that I felt like I needed to stop. I am using some materials by a woman in the UK who specializes in dyscalculia, Ronit Bird. We are focusing on using the dot patterns in dominoes and dice and he seems to have a better discernment. So here is my dilemma; I am having a hard time deciding how much is processing and if there is something dyscalculia at work. He learned (through the program) to identify numbers on a two-colored abacus). He has trouble with 2/3 sometimes like I said earlier. If the number is seven, he will sometimes call out 2. I see this as his processing, because he sees the one color and is not processing the other. But other times, there seems to be a real disconnect in his understanding. It confuses me how he has such strong scores in the visual part of the WISC but struggles between 2 and 3 items. I had him work through an online assessment through DynamoMaths, an online program for dyscalculia, and he scored low. Do you have a specific program you used to measure his math or was it a discrepancy between the IQ and academic assessment. Do you have an alternative assessment you use to go further into the dyscalculia?

His response is bolded:

Regarding math, his basic calculations are intact, but the word-based problems are being impacted by his reading scores - we need to keep an eye on this though as he progresses through school as I could be consistent with Dyscalculia at some point. The inconsistency you are seeing might be due to his low automaticity skills (Rapid Naming) which can impact reading fluency, spelling, and math fluency. Regarding math programs, I like the Math-U-See Program and Singapore Math programs.

First of all, I don’t believe my concerns were addressed. In the testing, my son used marks to add up the simple addition problems he completed. I didn’t mention word based problems and that isn’t even something we are working on. I understand automaticity. How does that address his confusion in amounts? What about his seeming confusion about less and more? 
I’m feeling frustrated and a bit concerned. I want to make sure I’m on the right track with my son. I am still working on the medication end to help his focus and short term memory, but I want to address the LDs as well. Am I missing something in the response? 

[Drama Llama]

How old is he?

[almondbutterandjelly]

I'm no expert, but I have a heavily visual dd.  She learned more and less because I had a large number line up on the wall, and "less" meant to the left and "more" meant to the right.  That is literally what clicked for her.  These visual kids can be a puzzle sometimes, but in the very best way!

Also, some stuff literally she had to age into to understand.  Like rounding, I recall.

Oh, also, if this helps, the < looks like "L" for Less.  She also needed that.  The > looked like the bottom part of "G" for Greater.  But she took a lot longer for that part, the symbolism part.

[MEmama]

14 minutes ago, almondbutterandjelly said:

the < looks like "L" for Less

I'm 51 and I still use this trick 😅

(yes, I'm pretty sure I'd be diagnosed with dyscalculia or something similar were I kid today)

[cjzimmer1]

24 minutes ago, almondbutterandjelly said:

 

Oh, also, if this helps, the < looks like "L" for Less.  She also needed that.  The > looked like the bottom part of "G" for Greater.  But she took a lot longer for that part, the symbolism part.

 

7 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I'm 51 and I still use this trick 😅

(yes, I'm pretty sure I'd be diagnosed with dyscalculia or something similar were I kid today)

I have no idea where or when I learned this "trick" but I drew little teeth inside the < and > signs and it was an alligator mouth and since alligators are hungry they aways eat the bigger piece (number) that was how I could remember which sign to use.  I've had to use that with some of my kids who couldn't keep them straight either.  They always laughed at the funny visual but it did work.

[Miss Tick]

1 hour ago, cjzimmer1 said:

I have no idea where or when I learned this "trick" but I drew little teeth inside the < and > signs and it was an alligator mouth and since alligators are hungry they aways eat the bigger piece (number)

In a "no good idea goes unpunished" counterpoint, I was taught that in 3rd grade and it took *years* before I understood that the way that alligator is facing makes a difference in how it is read (greater than vs less than). I'm no math genius, but eventually I realized what I was doing wrong.

[SKL]

7 minutes ago, Miss Tick said:

In a "no good idea goes unpunished" counterpoint, I was taught that in 3rd grade and it took *years* before I understood that the way that alligator is facing makes a difference in how it is read (greater than vs less than). I'm no math genius, but eventually I realized what I was doing wrong.

I didn't have the alligator trick, but I also took forever to get < / > as well as left/right.

The way I explained it to my kids, the smaller side of the angle (the left side of <, right side of >) points to the smaller number.

[KSera]

I thought everyone learned it the alligator way! That always made perfect sense to me, even without the teeth. I don’t think I specifically said alligator with my own kids, just that the “mouth” opens toward the bigger number. 

[Wishes]

He is six and I started kindergarten curriculum with him this summer.

in the matter or more/less, my concern is more like if we are talking about subitizing 5 he might say 4 and 3 make up 5 without recognizing that it’s way off.

He is 2E and has dysgraphia and dyslexia so parsing out what is processing speed and short-term memory issues and what might be LDs is difficult to parse out

[Innisfree]

19 minutes ago, Wishes said:

He is six and I started kindergarten curriculum with him this summer.

in the matter or more/less, my concern is more like if we are talking about subitizing 5 he might say 4 and 3 make up 5 without recognizing that it’s way off

With a six year old, I’d be inclined to use manipulatives consistently, rather than dealing with the numbers as abstract concepts. Sure, some six year olds could manage the abstraction, but I don’t think it’s outside the range of normal to stick with concrete examples for now. Let him put three blocks with four blocks and then count them all together.

We did use Ronit Bird, with good results. Give it plenty of time and practice.

[prairiewindmomma]

A few thoughts:

1. You could both be right. It’s hard to sort out when a kid is 6.

2. Most neuropsychs dont know about or do specific dyscalculia testing. We are about 20 years behind the UK in our understanding of dyscalculia.

3. Singapore math, MUS, and Ronit Bird’s dots material are great programs for young dyscalcics. You want hands on materials to help build number sense. When my dyscalcic kid got stuck on number pairs, we hopped around on different topics for a bit and came back to it. Have you tried using cuisenaire rods, laying out a number based on a rod and then having him build that number using other rod combinations? Have you tried spending time on weight, measures, time, money, or shapes? 
 

Bumping his prefrontal cortex functioning with adhd meds will likely help, but it’s only going to get you part of the way if he’s truly dyscalcic. 
 

I’ll try to dig through my stack of dyscalculia stuff and add to that thread on LC sometime in the next week. I got stalled out for a bit with sick kids followed by a kid surgery yesterday. 

[EKS]

All of what you are describing could be due to dyslexia.  My son (who is now an 27), is 2E with dyslexia and he had major problems with all aspects of the elementary school curriculum.  He presented as being much less intelligent that he actually was until about 5th grade.  I'd meet your son where he is and not worry a whole lot about the specific diagnosis just yet.

[domestic_engineer]

I don’t have advice much advice about the NP. However, I DO have a dyslexic and I did use Rightstart with all my kids. My dyslexic had the exact same things you described. I, too, pulled in Ronit Bird’s materials. And the dots/dominoes worked much better for my student for Subitizing. But what worked the BEST was pulling in the Cuisinaire Rods as our go-to manipulative. I know Dr. Cotter has her reasons for not using the rods, but it worked with my kiddo.  (The website Education Unboxed is a great resource for Cuisinaire Rods.)
 

I do think that the NP’s hypothesis of it all stemming from issues with Rapid Naming has some merit.  My kiddo has issues retrieving words and that slows things down. Another child of mine often misspoke;  they calculated  X in their head but then the word Y comes out of their mouth. Sigh.  Have you tried taking the language aspect out of math?  For example, have the student point to a “word bank” instead of having to come up with the correct word. Or use number stamps to answer questions. If you skip over the objective of being able to subitize, can you still make good progress in math? From personal experience, I’d encourage you to make sure you don’t let language issues keep you from developing their math skills. 

[kbutton]

My mildly dyslexic/dyscalculic kid did very well with cuisinaire rods. We used MUS Primer first and then Miquon. I would stick with Ronit Bird and see what happens.

DS’s RAN/RAS scores were low. 

[Wishes]

On 3/22/2024 at 10:23 AM, prairiewindmomma said:

A few thoughts:

1. You could both be right. It’s hard to sort out when a kid is 6.

2. Most neuropsychs dont know about or do specific dyscalculia testing. We are about 20 years behind the UK in our understanding of dyscalculia.

3. Singapore math, MUS, and Ronit Bird’s dots material are great programs for young dyscalcics. You want hands on materials to help build number sense. When my dyscalcic kid got stuck on number pairs, we hopped around on different topics for a bit and came back to it. Have you tried using cuisenaire rods, laying out a number based on a rod and then having him build that number using other rod combinations? Have you tried spending time on weight, measures, time, money, or shapes? 
 

Bumping his prefrontal cortex functioning with adhd meds will likely help, but it’s only going to get you part of the way if he’s truly dyscalcic. 
 

I’ll try to dig through my stack of dyscalculia stuff and add to that thread on LC sometime in the next week. I got stalled out for a bit with sick kids followed by a kid surgery yesterday. 

Thank you @prairiewindmomma. I am concerned about how few resources there are to diagnose dyscalculia as well as curriculum in the US. Thank you for the resources. I hope that your sick kids and child who had surgery recover quickly and with strength.

On 3/22/2024 at 11:20 AM, EKS said:

All of what you are describing could be due to dyslexia.  My son (who is now an 27), is 2E with dyslexia and he had major problems with all aspects of the elementary school curriculum.  He presented as being much less intelligent that he actually was until about 5th grade.  I'd meet your son where he is and not worry a whole lot about the specific diagnosis just yet.

That is a good point @EKS and something I will do. The concern with the diagnosis is mostly two-fold. I am and have been working with dyslexic children for 20 years. My son is progressing as I would hope in reading. He is not doing the same in math, so I feel a bit like I am letting him down. Secondly, I am a single mom and I do have a fear that if I died and he was put into school, that all of his needs wouldn’t be addressed and his confidence about his intelligence would plummet.

23 hours ago, domestic_engineer said:

I don’t have advice much advice about the NP. However, I DO have a dyslexic and I did use Rightstart with all my kids. My dyslexic had the exact same things you described. I, too, pulled in Ronit Bird’s materials. And the dots/dominoes worked much better for my student for Subitizing. But what worked the BEST was pulling in the Cuisinaire Rods as our go-to manipulative. I know Dr. Cotter has her reasons for not using the rods, but it worked with my kiddo.  (The website Education Unboxed is a great resource for Cuisinaire Rods.)
 

I do think that the NP’s hypothesis of it all stemming from issues with Rapid Naming has some merit.  My kiddo has issues retrieving words and that slows things down. Another child of mine often misspoke;  they calculated  X in their head but then the word Y comes out of their mouth. Sigh.  Have you tried taking the language aspect out of math?  For example, have the student point to a “word bank” instead of having to come up with the correct word. Or use number stamps to answer questions. If you skip over the objective of being able to subitize, can you still make good progress in math? From personal experience, I’d encourage you to make sure you don’t let language issues keep you from developing their math skills. 

Thank you @domestic_engineer. I was curious about the rapid naming element. I will try using stamps and see if there’s a matter of verbal word retrieval. He did receive SLP services until he was 4.

19 hours ago, kbutton said:

My mildly dyslexic/dyscalculic kid did very well with cuisinaire rods. We used MUS Primer first and then Miquon. I would stick with Ronit Bird and see what happens.

DS’s RAN/RAS scores were low. 

Thank you @kbutton. I am seeing a lot of recommendations for Cuisenaire rods. I will have to dig them out of my storage.

Edited March 23 by Wishes
And and about are completely different

[EKS]

3 hours ago, Wishes said:

My son is progressing as I would hope in reading. He is not doing the same in math, so I feel a bit like I am letting him down.

Are your expectations for math perhaps higher than they are for reading given the dyslexia diagnosis?

3 hours ago, Wishes said:

I am a single mom and I do have a fear that if I died and he was put into school, that all of his needs wouldn’t be addressed and his confidence and intelligence would plummet.

Hopefully this won't happen!  But is a likely outcome if he were to suddenly end up in school regardless of his diagnosis status.  Elementary school is difficult for 2E kids with dyslexia, at least a certain sort.  The easy stuff is the hardest it seems.  If you've read The Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides, the chapter on Max describes the sort of child I'm talking about.

[Rosie_0801]

Google 'CSMP Materials.'  My dyscalculic daughter wouldn't have learned maths without it. 

Your questions are more for educational psychologists than neuropsychs.

[Drama Llama]

16 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Google 'CSMP Materials.'  My dyscalculic daughter wouldn't have learned maths without it. 

Your questions are more for educational psychologists than neuropsychs.

Maybe this is a difference between language country to country, because in the US these are exactly the questions a neuropsychologist addresses in a neuropsych evaluation.

I have a lot of thoughts on this, and hope to come back but my first thought is that Kindergarten is very young in terms of neuropsych, and that the picture is going to continue to emerge.

What is your hope as far as how diagnoses will clarify things?  Are you hoping it will access services for him?  Or direct you to instructional materials?

[Rosie_0801]

5 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

Maybe this is a difference between language country to country, because in the US these are exactly the questions a neuropsychologist addresses in a neuropsych evaluation.

Probably.

Here a neuropsychologist diagnoses, but isn't trained in what to do about any of it, not in practical terms like "use these programs, try these ways of explaining."

[Terabith]

28 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Probably.

Here a neuropsychologist diagnoses, but isn't trained in what to do about any of it, not in practical terms like "use these programs, try these ways of explaining."

The neuropsych we saw here wasn't either, although he thought he was, but he really didn't know much about curricula when I talked to him.  Which is fair, his gig is testing, not keeping up with homeschool curriculum.  We found that while there's a lot of research about best practices for dyslexia, there wasn't nearly the same research for dyscalculia.  We've just been muddling through.  

[Ausmumof3]

At six, that probably wouldn’t be a definite indicator but it could be if he was a couple of years older and similar issues being observed?

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Probably.

Here a neuropsychologist diagnoses, but isn't trained in what to do about any of it, not in practical terms like "use these programs, try these ways of explaining."

In the US an educational psychologist doesn't usually deal with individual students, although there are exceptions.  They are more of a research psychologist, looking at questions such as whether there's an evidence base for curricula.  Neuropsychologists and school psychologist are the two professions that are more likely to see individual students, and do diagnostic work.  Of the two neuropsychologists are more highly educated, but school psychologists, because they work in the school system, may have more knowledge of the curricular choices that are available in that school system.  Neither profession, in the US, usually makes curricular recommendations.  They'll talk in general about the kinds of things a child needs in a curriculum, but taking that information and deciding what resources to use is up to the parent or professional.  

But that's an aside.  What I really wanted to say is that educational diagnoses for kids in September of Kindergarten isn't going to be very precise for a variety of reasons.  One is that kids that age, even typically developing ones, often struggle with attention, impulse control, and self-regulation all of which can make the test results unreliable.  Another is that kids at that point often have enormous differences in early experiences.  So, for example, a lot of what you describe is relatively normal for kids who come to kindergarten without an enriched background, but it might raise red flags for a kid coming from your particular household who has had more academic experiences.  So, saying, this pattern of strength and weaknesses can often lead to dyscalculia, but it's just too early to make that diagnosis, seems like a pretty valid response.

What led you to do get the neuropsych?  

[PeterPan]

On 3/22/2024 at 11:20 AM, Wishes said:

He is 2E and has dysgraphia and dyslexia

Fwiw, the (remove profanity) neuropsych that eval'ed my ds at that same age, newly 6, did the same (remove profanity) thing saying his TEST SCORES WERE SO HIGH THAT IT COULDN'T BE AN SLD. So he diagnosed the dyslexia and dysgraphia, called him gifted/2E, and then for bonus said I was incompetent to teach him.

So there IS NO test for dyscalculia. There's a university in the UK that had some pilot tool they were working on and Ronit Bird posted about it ages ago. Doesn't matter because your ds clearly has the issue and the IQ would allow him to mask. Eventually it will become painfully, astonishingly apparent. It's why my ds can in the same year be doing math MANY grades apart, because he's just all over the place. Also his explanation of the word problems issue is probably incorrect. I know zero about you, but your post is screaming autism. Again, (remove profanity) $$$$$$$ well regarded, author of the tools your neuropsych probably used (yes I get really upset about this almost 10 years later) was SO WRONG about my kid. He didn't listen and he didn't know how to slow down and see what was in front of him.

My ds, within a few years, was given an ASD2 label plus all the SLDs plus of course the gifted IQ, and that all together finally got us enough picture to make sense. I don't know your kid, but you are definitely correct that you're seeing things and definitely correct that $$$$$ can be incomplete at this stage. Unless it was a Hoagie's Gifted psych or someone who sees a lot of super complex kids, assume there's more. Work with what you're seeing, not what the paper says, and be very gentle.

[PeterPan]

59 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

isn't going to be very precise

1) no tests for number sense, only the actual math skills which the gifted IQ + Ronit Bird will fake out for a while yet

2) neuropsychs don't have money back guarantees or any consequence when they're wrong

3) they don't really listen

On 3/23/2024 at 11:50 AM, Wishes said:

He is not doing the same in math,

I can give you the advice I was given: teach him like he's math gifted with a math disability. Computation and mathematical thinking are NOT one in the same and they are NOT even in the same parts of the brain. Get Sousa's book on How the Brain Learns Math and read it and believe it. Teach the child you see. I try to have in a given math session something that speaks to a math weakness, something that speaks to a math strength, and something that is hands on or applied.

You will not go wrong using your common sense. You may cause him to HATE math if you do not. To me, computation is largely negotiable but word problems are not. So we have done Ronit Bird methodology but then handed him any tool he wants for computation (phone, calculator, multiplication machine, abacus, multiplication tables, etc.). Lots of word problem workbooks. Evan Moor has terrific ones, enough to keep you busy infinitely. I find the Lakeshore Learning kits incredibly useful. I like the supplemental books from Didax and find if you punch them up 3-4 grade levels you can find something that speaks to his gifted sign. Do not assume your dc's math skills are homogenous. I also got a series that I'm not sure you can get now that was sort of back to basics for things like MEASURING. A whole workbook on measuring. Measuring rooms and feet and desks and just lots of reality, kwim? And there are other cool resources (GEMS units, etc.). Have you done pattern tiles? We did a book on symmetry that was so fun. 

Teach him like he's math gifted with a math disability.

[PeterPan]

Btw, it's really easy to equate your dc's progress with the quality of your work. If you are DILIGENT and using sensitive, gentle, consistent methodology, I would absolve yourself of questions of whether you're doing enough. Your child's progress does NOT DEFINE you or your worth or how good a job you're doing. 

Your child is going to progress relative to themselves. Give them the grace to do that and yourself the grace to know that if you've been consistent (within the context of their developmental and behavioral readiness) you've done enough.

[EKS]

9 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

Maybe this is a difference between language country to country, because in the US these are exactly the questions a neuropsychologist addresses in a neuropsych evaluation.

 

Really?  I'd be stunned if a neuropsych knew anything at all about the details of teaching elementary math.

[Drama Llama]

4 minutes ago, EKS said:

Really?  I'd be stunned if a neuropsych knew anything at all about the details of teaching elementary math.

Sorry, I didn't mean that actual curriculum recommendations would come from a neuropsychologist, but a neuropsychologist comes up with recommendations for a specific child.  An educational psychologist generally doesn't.  So, figuring out how a kid learns, and making suggestions that can guide a parent or educator in choosing a curriculum, would be more of a question for a neuropsychologist than an educational psychologist. 

[Wishes]

Thank you for all the replies. Sorry I’m slow in responding.

On 3/23/2024 at 2:42 PM, Rosie_0801 said:

Google 'CSMP Materials.'  My dyscalculic daughter wouldn't have learned maths without it. 

Your questions are more for educational psychologists than neuropsychs.

Thank you @Rosie_0801 I did see that you recommended them in several Dyscalculia threads. I am going through it.

16 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

Maybe this is a difference between language country to country, because in the US these are exactly the questions a neuropsychologist addresses in a neuropsych evaluation.

I have a lot of thoughts on this, and hope to come back but my first thought is that Kindergarten is very young in terms of neuropsych, and that the picture is going to continue to emerge.

What is your hope as far as how diagnoses will clarify things?  Are you hoping it will access services for him?  Or direct you to instructional materials?

 Thanks @Drama Llama. My hope for a diagnosis is two-fold. One, I was hoping for more understanding about how my son could score so high (by far one of his highest scores) in the visual puzzles subtest and not be able to recognize the difference between two and three consistently. I mean, he recognizes two, but he will often name three as two or four. Even when I try to get him to stop, breathe, and not go with his impulse answer. Patterning has been difficult for him too. I do feel like if it were processing speed/working memory, I would stick with RS and just move more slowly. Practice until he has a better grasp. If it’s dyscalculia, go with Ronit Bird. Secondly, as I mentioned upthread, I’m a single mom and if something happens to me, I want to make sure he has access to services, the right services. Like you, I taught in a self- contained EBD classroom. While I think I did the best I could with all my students, it is not a place he would thrive. Our district doesn’t have a gifted program; they have a “highly capable “ program which caters to non-LD children working two grades ahead. I am a planner, by nature. I want to provide as much information as possible for my kids and family if they’d have to navigate supports from the school system.

8 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

In the US an educational psychologist doesn't usually deal with individual students, although there are exceptions.  They are more of a research psychologist, looking at questions such as whether there's an evidence base for curricula.  Neuropsychologists and school psychologist are the two professions that are more likely to see individual students, and do diagnostic work.  Of the two neuropsychologists are more highly educated, but school psychologists, because they work in the school system, may have more knowledge of the curricular choices that are available in that school system.  Neither profession, in the US, usually makes curricular recommendations.  They'll talk in general about the kinds of things a child needs in a curriculum, but taking that information and deciding what resources to use is up to the parent or professional.  

But that's an aside.  What I really wanted to say is that educational diagnoses for kids in September of Kindergarten isn't going to be very precise for a variety of reasons.  One is that kids that age, even typically developing ones, often struggle with attention, impulse control, and self-regulation all of which can make the test results unreliable.  Another is that kids at that point often have enormous differences in early experiences.  So, for example, a lot of what you describe is relatively normal for kids who come to kindergarten without an enriched background, but it might raise red flags for a kid coming from your particular household who has had more academic experiences.  So, saying, this pattern of strength and weaknesses can often lead to dyscalculia, but it's just too early to make that diagnosis, seems like a pretty valid response.

What led you to do get the neuropsych?  

That is true. I went to the neuropych because I suspected ADHD. I also wanted to see how significant his processing speed and working memory were being impacted.

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Fwiw, the (remove profanity) neuropsych that eval'ed my ds at that same age, newly 6, did the same (remove profanity) thing saying his TEST SCORES WERE SO HIGH THAT IT COULDN'T BE AN SLD. So he diagnosed the dyslexia and dysgraphia, called him gifted/2E, and then for bonus said I was incompetent to teach him.

So there IS NO test for dyscalculia. There's a university in the UK that had some pilot tool they were working on and Ronit Bird posted about it ages ago. Doesn't matter because your ds clearly has the issue and the IQ would allow him to mask. Eventually it will become painfully, astonishingly apparent. It's why my ds can in the same year be doing math MANY grades apart, because he's just all over the place. Also his explanation of the word problems issue is probably incorrect. I know zero about you, but your post is screaming autism. Again, (remove profanity) $$$$$$$ well regarded, author of the tools your neuropsych probably used (yes I get really upset about this almost 10 years later) was SO WRONG about my kid. He didn't listen and he didn't know how to slow down and see what was in front of him.

My ds, within a few years, was given an ASD2 label plus all the SLDs plus of course the gifted IQ, and that all together finally got us enough picture to make sense. I don't know your kid, but you are definitely correct that you're seeing things and definitely correct that $$$$$ can be incomplete at this stage. Unless it was a Hoagie's Gifted psych or someone who sees a lot of super complex kids, assume there's more. Work with what you're seeing, not what the paper says, and be very gentle.

Thank you @PeterPan. I’m sorry that your neuropsych experience was so frustrating. I am trying to diss out the different influences. I’m sure as the years go on there will be different paths. He was exposed to substances in utero in addition to LDs/Speech issues being in his FOO.

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

1) no tests for number sense, only the actual math skills which the gifted IQ + Ronit Bird will fake out for a while yet

2) neuropsychs don't have money back guarantees or any consequence when they're wrong

3) they don't really listen

I can give you the advice I was given: teach him like he's math gifted with a math disability. Computation and mathematical thinking are NOT one in the same and they are NOT even in the same parts of the brain. Get Sousa's book on How the Brain Learns Math and read it and believe it. Teach the child you see. I try to have in a given math session something that speaks to a math weakness, something that speaks to a math strength, and something that is hands on or applied.

You will not go wrong using your common sense. You may cause him to HATE math if you do not. To me, computation is largely negotiable but word problems are not. So we have done Ronit Bird methodology but then handed him any tool he wants for computation (phone, calculator, multiplication machine, abacus, multiplication tables, etc.). Lots of word problem workbooks. Evan Moor has terrific ones, enough to keep you busy infinitely. I find the Lakeshore Learning kits incredibly useful. I like the supplemental books from Didax and find if you punch them up 3-4 grade levels you can find something that speaks to his gifted sign. Do not assume your dc's math skills are homogenous. I also got a series that I'm not sure you can get now that was sort of back to basics for things like MEASURING. A whole workbook on measuring. Measuring rooms and feet and desks and just lots of reality, kwim? And there are other cool resources (GEMS units, etc.). Have you done pattern tiles? We did a book on symmetry that was so fun. 

Teach him like he's math gifted with a math disability.

I will pick up Sousa’s book, thanks for the recommendation. Will look at the resources mentioned. Patterning was hard for him too.

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Btw, it's really easy to equate your dc's progress with the quality of your work. If you are DILIGENT and using sensitive, gentle, consistent methodology, I would absolve yourself of questions of whether you're doing enough. Your child's progress does NOT DEFINE you or your worth or how good a job you're doing. 

Your child is going to progress relative to themselves. Give them the grace to do that and yourself the grace to know that if you've been consistent (within the context of their developmental and behavioral readiness) you've done enough.

Thank you. I appreciate that. I will take these words to heart.

Edited March 25 by Wishes

[prairiewindmomma]

Do you think the gap is in symbolic thinking? What happens if you go very concrete? If you put two cookies on one plate and three on another plate, can he tell you which has more cookies? 
 

My kid at 5-6 really needed hands on concrete things. The number symbol representation thing was shaky….but he could consistently do math with chocolate chips, lego toys, or other things he cared about and touched with his hands. Balance scales and abacuses were a stretch for him for a while. 
 

 

 

[Wishes]

He would recognize two versus three cookies, yes. Good point. He has funny gaps. We were doing a RS halving lesson. I piled 30 tiles and he separated them into 15 each w/o counting. And, he didn’t have the same pattern for each of us. But he did it. It makes me think the 3/4 thing is just processing speed, except it happens often.

Edited March 25 by Wishes

[prairiewindmomma]

Imo, I would assume that part of what you are seeing is some 2E jaggedness. Weird gaps kind of define 2E. 
 

It seems like part of your anxiety is around what happens if you exit the picture of his life. With regards to what educational notes to leave friends/family, I would just say “areas of concern in math—keep an eye on a possible dyscalculia diagnosis”. And then I’d let that particular concern go. My health has been tenuous for about a decade now, so please believe me that I very much understand the worry and the understanding that you are very uniquely qualified to help your kid in a way that most people cant…..but I will also share that I put my dyscalcic kid in school in 2018 precisely because my health was tenuous and wanted to do the transition then, just in case, and my kid has been surprisingly ok. He graduates this year. 
 

As to how to move forward in educating the kid in front of you, assume dyscalculia at this point. Keep things very concrete right now and as that becomes stronger, then work on building symbolic notation.  The strength of singapore math compared to most US curricula is that it is very good at spending longer in concrete and building up to symbolic. Whether or not you use that program, I would be pulling out ten frame work, and I would be planning on using bar charts and all of those wonderful teaching constructs from the program in the future. 

Cuisenaire work is also fantastic. The Miquon workbooks are inexpensive. Look at the sample pages for more ideas on things you can do with rods.
 

CSMP is another fantastic suggestion. (We used it as a supplement around other stuff.) 
 

My 2E kids were bored by MUS in early elementary, and MUS does not do enough with measures, money, or time. 

I found it helpful to do 3 short bursts of math (20 min) through the homeschool day with young kids. Two of those would be very hands on/active work. We swatted answers on index cards with a fly swatter, hopped on taped answers on the floor to skip count, built and measured all kinds of things, lugged around all kinds of quantities of things, snapped together linking cubes, and did a lot of chocolate chip math. I did a lot of practical world problems that needed solving that took concepts from the book and then became dinner (6 baby carrots per person x 6 people). The more that I could build connections for my dyscalcic kid, the better. I am fairly convinced he only eventually understood coins because he was highly motivated to buy treats from my homemade store. 
 

If patterns are currently hard, start with colors or shapes and then move to numbers. You may see a weird gap there. 

[SFisher]

On 3/22/2024 at 11:20 AM, Wishes said:

He is 2E

What are his strength areas? Generally you can use strengths to support weaknesses. It’s possible that he’s already doing this -compensating.

[kbutton]

Just making sure—did you rule out developmental vision issues? I would assume those would suppress the block stuff on the WISC, but 2e is so all over the map that you can’t be sure sometimes! Convergence issues can really mess stuff up.

Does it matter if he’s handling the objects or if you are? One of my kids had retained reflexes, which made his head and his hands stay “tied” together, so if he moved his head, his hands would move and vice versa, and that meant if his hands were supposed to be one place while his head moved up and down or side to side, he lost his place. In his case, it would show up in copywork—he could copy only small portions into an immediately adjacent space, and anything more spread out was a hot mess. This can affect stuff like pointing also.

Also, if the issue is consistently with just certain numbers, could this be dyslexic word finding vs. dyscalculia? Could he have gotten the words filed in a shaky spot rather than being shaky on the concept?

Just some thoughts because brains are weird!

[Wishes]

20 hours ago, SFisher said:

What are his strength areas? Generally you can use strengths to support weaknesses. It’s possible that he’s already doing this -compensating.

Academically his strength is his long term memory. In a general sense: he has a great sense of humor, he is cheerful, an extrovert (kids at his outdoor school love him), kind, curious about everything, physically adroit, loves nature, and loves taking things apart. 
 

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Just making sure—did you rule out developmental vision issues? I would assume those would suppress the block stuff on the WISC, but 2e is so all over the map that you can’t be sure sometimes! Convergence issues can really mess stuff up.

Does it matter if he’s handling the objects or if you are? One of my kids had retained reflexes, which made his head and his hands stay “tied” together, so if he moved his head, his hands would move and vice versa, and that meant if his hands were supposed to be one place while his head moved up and down or side to side, he lost his place. In his case, it would show up in copywork—he could copy only small portions into an immediately adjacent space, and anything more spread out was a hot mess. This can affect stuff like pointing also.

Also, if the issue is consistently with just certain numbers, could this be dyslexic word finding vs. dyscalculia? Could he have gotten the words filed in a shaky spot rather than being shaky on the concept?

Just some thoughts because brains are weird!

We had an OT assessment (which confirmed the dysgraphia) and he recommended a vision assessment. I have it scheduled. He also noticed a couple of things with primitive reflexes. I will admit that I don’t know enough about either of these areas to be highly enthusiastic. I would imagine there would be some improvement, but to what degree especially as to the cost.

as to your last point, I don’t think so.

[kirstenhill]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Also, if the issue is consistently with just certain numbers, could this be dyslexic word finding vs. dyscalculia? Could he have gotten the words filed in a shaky spot rather than being shaky on the concept?

Just some thoughts because brains are weird!

OP, I know you said you don't think this is the case, but I just wanted to chime in that what kbutton is saying was exactly the problem with RS math with my dyslexic DS - there is such a big emphasis in right start in being able to say the names of the numbers out loud (looking at the beads on the abacus or pattern of sticks, saying the number names).  It was so frustrating to him.  When I stopped requiring this, it turned out he knew which number (symbol) matched which numerical concept, and could do 4 digit addition and subtraction well before he could consistently say all number names out loud when looking at the corresponding symbols.  I think the idea of kids being able to say number names is so ingrained in most math curricula that the idea that a kid could possibly conceptually understand math without being able to do this is very out of the box to most people.

[SFisher]

3 hours ago, Wishes said:

Academically his strength is his long term memory. In a general sense: he has a great sense of humor, he is cheerful, an extrovert (kids at his outdoor school love him), kind, curious about everything, physically adroit, loves nature, and loves taking things apart. 

I don’t know enough about long term memory to know how you could use this… but I do know there is a lot of research on different types on memory. Particularly knowing how people capture and store things into their long term memory could be beneficial to you and your kid.

physically adroit & taking things apart makes me think he could enter math from more of a visual spatial point of view. Think about how you can make math more 3 dimensional and physical. Magnatiles, math manipulatives, unit blocks, fort building kits, number lines. Some people are just wired to think about the world visually/spatially first, and language second. Some books that would be helpful are the dyslexic advantage and upside down brilliance.

nature interests and social skills are certainly valuable… keep doing those and you may find out how they can connect back. Just doing things that make a kid feel good about themselves is reason enough to do it. 

[Terabith]

I loved Right Start math, but it was absolutely terrible for my 2e kid with dyslexia and dyscalculia. She did really well with the cuisenaire rods and Miquon, and well with CLE math.  

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I loved Right Start math, but it was absolutely terrible for my 2e kid with dyslexia and dyscalculia. She did really well with the cuisenaire rods and Miquon, and well with CLE math.  

It always struck me as requiring a lot of dexterity too (for geometry concepts, IIRC). That is one reason I didn’t use it. 

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, kbutton said:

It always struck me as requiring a lot of dexterity too (for geometry concepts, IIRC). That is one reason I didn’t use it. 

Yeah, we didn't get that far with my 2e kid.  My oldest LOVED B and we got through part of C, but I didn't love how they taught subtraction with regrouping or multiplication, so we transitioned to Singapore at that point for oldest.  (And I think D was the highest of the arithmetic that was out at that point, though G was out.) My 2e kid did A and part of B, but the mental math just was completely impossible for her.  

[PeterPan]

Fetal exposures are a separate thing to research.

You can thinking about *generalization* or whether the skill/concept is present in one setting and not the next.

[TravelingChris]

On 3/22/2024 at 8:42 AM, cjzimmer1 said:

 

I have no idea where or when I learned this "trick" but I drew little teeth inside the < and > signs and it was an alligator mouth and since alligators are hungry they aways eat the bigger piece (number) that was how I could remember which sign to use.  I've had to use that with some of my kids who couldn't keep them straight either.  They always laughed at the funny visual but it did work.

I do not have discalculia and am better at doing calculations in my head if I am not foggy than my dh, who is a PhD in physics,  However, all my life, I have had problems w lett and right and also lesser and greater.  I had zero problems understanding the concept of lesser and greater but I have an extremely low memory for directionality of random stuff,  I also have difficulty w sewing patterns and blueprints but what is weird is that I have a superior sense of how to get places and I remember the way from childhood places on.  I also don't have any problems reading maps.

One of my dd"s, who is dyslexic, did have much bigger problems w/ innate learning how to drive to places at first. With age, she has improved a lot. But her husband, doesn’t remember anything about which direction to turn from our neighborhood for what and he has been here lots of times in the last five years or so,  She has a computer science major but found that her great skill in the field is being a tester, not a programmer.