Would you have your son finish his Associate's in high school if he had no interest in attending college?

[Sabine]

It's a bit of a mess to explain everything, so bear with me, please.

My husband and I have our kids take the CLEP Tests to meet our state's proof-of-progress requirements. When our oldest son was in ninth grade, we stumbled across the requirements for a General Studies Associate's, and my husband and I decided to incorporate these requirements in our high school plan. Very little changed, but we did add four college courses to our high school plan: SDV 100 College Survival Skill in fall of junior year, Public Speaking in spring of junior year, and an evening/night school biology class (not dual enrollment, but taken at the local high school due to a lack of a "real" satellite campus). Our oldest son graduated with his A.S., and our older daughter is set to do so this spring.

That brings us to our middle child. He is a tenth grader, and he has no intentions of going to college. He's going to be a cowboy, like his uncles. He already does a lot during any break, on the weekends, and after school, so it's not like he doesn't know what he's signing up for. He likes the work. My son would have to be replaced with an entirely different person for any of that to change.

And now my husband and I are left in a pickle. 

We see several benefits of the kids graduating with an A.S. One of which doesn't really apply to this son, but it's guaranteed transfer to any public college in the state and several in-state private colleges. Another, which I personally feel is more important since he doesn't plan to attend college, is that it gives a sort of "backing" to a homeschool diploma. 

On the flip side, it feels disrespectful of my son's wishes. He'll do the coursework without fuss, but will he be resentful of it? I don't want to damage my relationship with my son for a piece of paper he doesn't need to do what he wants. The college will be there if he changes his mind. High schoolers pay full tuition for classes anyway (barring the exceptionally few DE classes offered at the high schools, none of which are helpful to us), so we're not saving money. 

I don't know what to do. What would you do in these circumstances?

[KSera]

Besides the money, what would be the downsides for him? He would graduate at the same time? The fact he has no desire to go to college would make me more likely to have him graduate with an associates rather than less. I would continue to fully support his career plans as they are, but if there’s no real cost to him, I don’t see a downside to keeping more doors open. One never knows what their physical health will be like and it’s always good to have some thing as back up if one’s physical capabilities do not hold up as long as they had hoped.

[Sabine]

16 minutes ago, KSera said:

Besides the money, what would be the downsides for him? He would graduate at the same time? The fact he has no desire to go to college would make me more likely to have him graduate with an associates rather than less. I would continue to fully support his career plans as they are, but if there’s no real cost to him, I don’t see a downside to keeping more doors open. One never knows what their physical health will be like and it’s always good to have some thing as back up if one’s physical capabilities do not hold up as long as they had hoped.

I think he's afraid if he gets the A.S. that he'll be pushed to go further. 

[KSera]

Just now, Sabine said:

I think he's afraid if he gets the A.S. that he'll be pushed to go further. 

I can understand that. Can you just assure him that's not the case? That an A.S. is a fully accepted end point?

[Sabine]

Just now, KSera said:

I can understand that. Can you just assure him that's not the case? That an A.S. is a fully accepted end point?

With me, yes. With my husband, no. 

[Lucy the Valiant]

We'd probably have a conversation with kid (maybe over ice cream), explaining the exact things you typed out here, and ask his mature feedback. You mentioned that he's be willing to do the work but might resent it . . . there's also the possibility that life could take a sharp turn, and he'd actually resent NOT being required to earn the AS. Relationships matter more than academics, but kids can often trust (even reluctantly) that we parents are trying to do the best job we can, and that we're giving them our best wisdom at the time. 

Does your state have minimum requirements? He still has to complete high school in some fashion, of course.

And either way, it's not a forever decision, truthfully; if he doesn't do the classes now, and later changes his mind, he can pay for them himself as an adult and still earn the AS, right? 

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

2 minutes ago, Sabine said:

I think he's afraid if he gets the A.S. that he'll be pushed to go further. 

 

Just now, Sabine said:

With me, yes. With my husband, no. 

Ah, that's a bit of a game changer. Does dad not want him to become a cowboy?

[Sabine]

Just now, Lucy the Valiant said:

We'd probably have a conversation with kid (maybe over ice cream), explaining the exact things you typed out here, and ask his mature feedback. You mentioned that he's be willing to do the work but might resent it . . . there's also the possibility that life could take a sharp turn, and he'd actually resent NOT being required to earn the AS. Relationships matter more than academics, but kids can often trust (even reluctantly) that we parents are trying to do the best job we can, and that we're giving them our best wisdom at the time. 

Does your state have minimum requirements? He still has to complete high school in some fashion, of course.

And either way, it's not a forever decision, truthfully; if he doesn't do the classes now, and later changes his mind, he can pay for them himself as an adult and still earn the AS, right? 

 

No, the state doesn't have any requirements for high school graduation. It's all on the family to decide. 

Yes, finishing college later is an option. 

[Sabine]

1 minute ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

 

Ah, that's a bit of a game changer. Does dad not want him to become a cowboy?

It's not really being a cowboy that's the problem. My husband is just the sort who thinks everyone needs a Bachelor's degree. He's having a similar fight with our older daughter; she's set to start a vet tech program next fall. He's not happy that she's not going for a full veterinary degree. 

[ScoutTN]

One seriously debilitating injury and he’s no longer a cowboy. The A.S. would be good to have, but if it causes big relational strain, after you’ve had a thorough and unpressured conversation about it, I’d let it go. More school is almost always an option for later; it’s not going away.

Edited January 28 by ScoutTN

[ScoutTN]

Sounds like you and your Dh need to come to a unified position before making requirements for your teen/young adult kids.

[Sabine]

14 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Sounds like you and your Dh need to come to a unified position before making requirements for your teen/young adult kids.

I think we both thought we had reached an agreement. And it worked for our oldest two kids. Our oldest son is finishing his business degree, and he's looking at applying to law school. Our older daughter was fine because the A.S. meets all the prereqs for the vet tech program. It wasn't until recently with our middle son that anything was thrown into question with regards to our high school requirements. 

[ByGrace3]

I think an A.S. is a good goal, but I wouldn't sacrifice the relationship for it. If you can get him onboard great. If you can't, can you compromise? Have him take the equivalent of a high school load in DE classes -- he graduates with a lot of college credits though short of an A.S. degree -- but he is a step ahead should he decide to go back at some point?

[Lori D.]

19 hours ago, Sabine said:

...What would you do in these circumstances?

Just to make sure I had gathered as much info as possible for decision-making, I would look at what other options might be available through dual enrollment at the community college. Are there AAS degrees available at the community college?

An AS is the "degree to transfer" Associate's (to then go to a university and finish with a Bachelor's degree), while the AAS is the "degree to work" Associate's that has a lot of the direct hands-on ed/training towards a Vo-Tech career job.

Since this DS has a clear career goal that, at this time, does not involve transferring to a university to complete a Bachelor's degree, an AS degree is possibly not as helpful to him as as an AAS degree might be.

What possible AAS degrees offered at your community college might potentially be useful from time to time in cowboying, or other work related to cowboying? Animal husbandry? Welding? Construction? EMT? Or even something like accounting or bookkeeping? Those could also all work well as a "fall-back" job later on if the cowboy gig doesn't work out.

Or, are there other AAS programs that might be a possible fit for DS as a completely different kind of "fall-back" job, even if totally unrelated to cowboying? HVAC? Or intro training in plumbing or electrician or auto mechanic? He sounds like a hands-on / outdoors kind of guy, which is why I suggest some of these.

Also, I'd be researching university costs and discussing with both DH and with EACH child. What's the plan for paying for the 2+ years at a university to complete a Bachelor's degree?  

How likely are scholarships -- on average 1/2 tuition scholarship is common, but that may lead all of the room & board cost for each year if going to a state university out of town. And what is the plan for paying if the scholarship is not renewed?

Are federal student loans on or off the table for your family? If willing for your students to take on debt, do your students fully understand how that will impact their future?

(For example, in 2022, the average amount of debt students came out of college with was $10,000; paying $300/month means that will take 10 years to pay off. That may lock a student into a job until they pay it off, meaning they are unable to move or take a risk on a different job because they must pay that debt off every.single.month. Also, if the student has college debt and marries someone with college debt, they are each mutually responsible for one another's debt -- and that could impact ability to afford buying a house, where they can afford to live, or even whether or not they can afford to start a family if they wanted to.)

And what if the student ends up needed more than 2 years after transfer from community college to complete the Bachelor (for example, shifts degree program, or just can't handle the workload for graduating in just 2 years). Or what if the student ends up dropping out of college and not completing the degree first. If there is debt that must be paid, but now there is no degree to open doors to a potentially higher-paying job).

And even if finances are not an issue and a student does get the AS and then a Bachelor's degree... depending on what the Bachelor's degree is for, there are a LOT of people out there with a Bachelor's who are working entry-level jobs because that's all that's available.

Just a few things to throw in the mix as you all discuss and decide. Wishing you all the BEST! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited January 29 by Lori D.

[EKS]

5 hours ago, Sabine said:

With me, yes. With my husband, no. 

Why would a high school diploma by itself be acceptable to your husband as an endpoint but not the associate's?

[Rosie_0801]

How old would he be when he finished the associates? 

[Sabine]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Why would a high school diploma by itself be acceptable to your husband as an endpoint but not the associate's?

A high school diploma isn't a satisfactory endpoint for my husband. But once the kids are grown and graduated, there's not a lot he can do, especially if they move out and are working. 

[Sabine]

47 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

How old would he be when he finished the associates? 

He'll be seventeen, a little over a month shy of eighteen. He's my July baby. 

[Rosie_0801]

If he were mine, I'd reckon he ought to do his associates then go stay with his uncles for a month or so.

[EKS]

11 hours ago, Sabine said:

A high school diploma isn't a satisfactory endpoint for my husband. But once the kids are grown and graduated, there's not a lot he can do, especially if they move out and are working. 

I would have him do the associate's.  It gives him more options and it likely won't be any more work.

[sweet2ndchance]

The great thing about homeschooling is that you can cater to each child as an individual. No cookie cutter education necessary. Each child can have a personalized end goal that takes into account their interests.

I would have this child complete an A.A.S. as their end goal for high school. If your local community college has some sort of AG program A.A.S., that would be ideal. Otherwise, welding, book keeping, plumbing, electrician or auto/diesel mechanic are all skills that a cowboy could use that most schools have an A.A.S. for and offer fallback protection for your son if for any reason cowboying doesn't work out. An A.A.S. can still transfer to a 4 year school if and when that is ever needed. I have an A.A.S. that I transferred to a 4 year school. Not everything directly transferred but it did cover my first two years at the 4 year school and then some.

[Sabine]

17 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

If he were mine, I'd reckon he ought to do his associates then go stay with his uncles for a month or so.

He has stayed with one of them all summer for the past three years. He loves it. 

[shawthorne44]

Mainly because it is a physical job, I'd insist on the AS that you were thinking of.  At some point in the future if he was physically incapable of being a cowboy he'd be much closer to a more specific degree.   
Also, imagine at some point in the future he can't be a cowboy anymore, and all he has is a mommy high school degree?   He'd be in a much worse place.  

Your DH needs to deal with the idea that this son won't get a college degree.   That isn't in the cards.  

[ktgrok]

What if he gets injured and can't be a cowboy anymore? Having an AS opens up a lot more doors than a highschool diploma. And if he were injured or something happened and he couldn't or didn't want to continue in being a cowboy, and did want to go back to school, he'd have a lot less to do. 

[BusyMom5]

On 1/28/2024 at 9:48 PM, Sabine said:

He'll be seventeen, a little over a month shy of eighteen. He's my July baby. 

I would have him get the AS.  He's still really young and this is just replacing the high school classes he would need anyway.  We are a farm family and I see physics, biology, and chemistry in caring for our livestock!  Physics- farm equipment repairs.  Biology- vaccines, birthing and genetics, sickness, nutrition and supplements. Chemistry- fertilizing, nutrition, all the farm chemicals!  

 

[Lawyer&Mom]

I would insist on an AS as the compromise for not going to college.  But the compromise goes both ways.  No pressure for a full undergrad degree. 

[cintinative]

I'm really late responding and don't have real advice, but wanted to share about a situation I am aware of.  My cousin's daughter likes to barrel race, and she ended up getting a vet tech certification and a pharmacy tech certification.  She works part time at both. The main reason she has the vet tech certification is that she gets discounted vet care for her horses, plus she can do some care herself because of the training.  It sounds like vet tech is a 2 year degree?    

[Clemsondana]

I would encourage him to get the AS or do something that would earn a certificate so that he has a backup plan in case of injury.  But, I wouldn't push a 4-year degree on a student at the end of that.  I told both of my kids that I want them to have a plan for how to earn a living, but they don't need a 4-year degree unless the degree is required for the plan.  If their choice had a risk of injury, I'd encourage a certificate in a related field.  The learning would be useful for what they want to do, and the certificate would be a back-up plan.  

[Innisfree]

Another one coming late to this thread… one question I have is how old his uncles are. Has ds had a chance to see the effects of aging and accumulated accidents on how his uncles function? Have they got plans for shifting their work if they need to? Ds might be more open to discussing backup plans with them than with his father, under the circumstances. If they don’t have backup plans, that would be a serious concern for me.

I think the AAS degree sounds like a good compromise, but the AS would be fine too. Pushing for a full BS after that sounds unwise, both for relationship purposes and for the practical considerations @Lori D. mentioned.

[Farrar]

Also late to the thread, but I'm not in favor of high schoolers getting associates degrees for the most part. But I would absolutely for this kid for the reason that everyone is saying. This is a job that's totally contingent on not getting injured. And it's one that's hard on the body. He'll be glad he has it one day, even if that's twenty years from now. It will give him a huge leg up if he decides to get a full BA/BS one day. Or if he decides to get a more practical associate's. It's also not that different from normal high school graduation requirements. Do it.

[Sabine]

On 2/9/2024 at 9:22 AM, cintinative said:

I'm really late responding and don't have real advice, but wanted to share about a situation I am aware of.  My cousin's daughter likes to barrel race, and she ended up getting a vet tech certification and a pharmacy tech certification.  She works part time at both. The main reason she has the vet tech certification is that she gets discounted vet care for her horses, plus she can do some care herself because of the training.  It sounds like vet tech is a 2 year degree?    

Yes, vet tech is a two-year degree. My daughter thought it was a much better timeframe than going to vet school.

[Sabine]

On 2/10/2024 at 9:24 AM, Innisfree said:

Another one coming late to this thread… one question I have is how old his uncles are. Has ds had a chance to see the effects of aging and accumulated accidents on how his uncles function? Have they got plans for shifting their work if they need to? Ds might be more open to discussing backup plans with them than with his father, under the circumstances. If they don’t have backup plans, that would be a serious concern for me.

I think the AAS degree sounds like a good compromise, but the AS would be fine too. Pushing for a full BS after that sounds unwise, both for relationship purposes and for the practical considerations @Lori D. mentioned.

His oldest uncle is 58, and his youngest is 35. There are a handful in-between them. His (pseudo) grandpa is 74, and he still works as a cowboy. He doesn't do quite as much and spends a lot of time training new ones, but he still works.

Their backup plans are to adapt what they do. Requiring an "out" is insulting. They see it like this: if your kid wanted to go to med school, would you make her get a teaching license in biology first, just in case she wasn't smart enough to get in or make it through med school? If not, then what's the difference? Either way, if the cowboy or the wannabe doctor can't do it, they have to go back to school. 

That said, because I had both of my older two kids earn their General Studies Associates, his uncles aren't against it. 

[Sabine]

12 hours ago, Farrar said:

Also late to the thread, but I'm not in favor of high schoolers getting associates degrees for the most part. But I would absolutely for this kid for the reason that everyone is saying. This is a job that's totally contingent on not getting injured. And it's one that's hard on the body. He'll be glad he has it one day, even if that's twenty years from now. It will give him a huge leg up if he decides to get a full BA/BS one day. Or if he decides to get a more practical associate's. It's also not that different from normal high school graduation requirements. Do it.

May I ask why you normally aren't in favor of high schoolers earning associates degrees? Is it related to costs and scholarships? I know many scholarships are only available to freshmen.  

[Miss Tick]

1 hour ago, Sabine said:

if your kid wanted to go to med school, would you make her get a teaching license in biology first, just in case she wasn't smart enough to get in or make it through med school? If not, then what's the difference? Either way, if the cowboy or the wannabe doctor can't do it, they have to go back to school. 

This confuses me because if my kid can get into med school, but subsequently fails out or drops out due to anxiety or whatever, couldn't they then use the credits that they did earn to work toward another degree or a certification program or a teaching license? But if my child is in a physically demanding job like a cowboy, dancer, professional sport, or many trade jobs, and they get injured and can no longer work in that field what do they do? Dancers and sport players can perhaps coach or teach that sport, a trade job person might be able to switch to focus on business ownership matters, perhaps, but I don't know what the cowboy equivalent is. Would it be ranch management of some kind? This is what we are talking about. When I had a cold considering professional dance I advised that they consider a fall-back career in case of injury (or lack of success, although that possibility was unsaid). So if their fall back was going to be running a studio, they should consider putting business classes in their educational plan.

Edited February 11 by Miss Tick

[Sabine]

25 minutes ago, Miss Tick said:

This confuses me because if my kid can get into med school, but subsequently fails out or drops out due to anxiety or whatever, couldn't they then use the credits that they did earn to work toward another degree or a certification program or a teaching license? But if my child is in a physically demanding job like a cowboy, dancer, professional sport, or many trade jobs, and they get injured and can no longer work in that field what do they do? Dancers and sport players can perhaps coach or teach that sport, a trade job person might be able to switch to focus on business ownership matters, perhaps, but I don't know what the cowboy equivalent is. Would it be ranch management of some kind? This is what we are talking about. When I had a cold considering professional dance I advised that they consider a fall-back career in case of injury (or lack of success, although that possibility was unsaid). So if their fall back was going to be running a studio, they should consider putting business classes in their educational plan.

I think part of the point is that the amount of time needed for a "working" associates is the same as to earn a teaching licensure if you already have a Bachelors. It's about two years either way.

The other point is the lack of faith. Professional athletes and dancers are different to cowboys with regards to the amount of open spots. Teams and theatres/companies only have a limited number of positions to fill. It may not be a lack of skill but a lack of need that prevents a dancer or athlete from working. However, cowboying is a bit like nursing - there's always an opening somewhere. 

I see another difference in that I believe most professional leagues require at least two years at the college level, yes? In that case, I certainly wouldn't want to have my son finish his associates in high school to preserve his freshman status. However, planning would be more difficult because it seems many athletes who go pro don't finish their degrees. 

[Innisfree]

One of my kids isn’t heading to college, either, directly or perhaps ever. We’re trying to navigate the best path for an individual who doesn’t want more academics. So I’m not unsympathetic to the need to respect who a kid is, or their interests and goals. I certainly don’t intend any disrespect towards @Sabine’s ds or his uncles or grandfather. 

My experience with physical trades is that they can have an expiration date. Maybe they won’t! That’s great, if it works out. I agree that the world of professional dance or sports is smaller than the world of nursing, and since I know nothing about being a cowboy, I’m happy to defer to you on that. But I do know plumbers who have a harder time climbing around under houses as they get older, and some need to change jobs. As long as there’s time and money available, sure, they can retrain, though that takes a different degree of motivation and flexibility at 45 or 55 than it does at 20. Family obligations can add complications, but maybe you’re dealing with a family structure that can help with supporting kids or older parents while retraining.

If my kid wanted to be a plumber, I would encourage them, but also emphasize business classes or something else to have in their back pocket, already finished and ready to wave around, if they needed it. That’s why I agreed from the start that an AAS or AS degree would be wise. I don’t see the equivalence between undertaking medical school, with a finished BS which would provide entry level employment opportunities, on the one hand, with undertaking a physical trade without anything beyond a high school diploma. The first has immediate, built-in employability; the second requires retraining. Some kind of associates degree or certificate program is better than no sort of degree and starting from scratch. I’m agreeing with your ideas, not disagreeing.

None of that is intended to be disrespectful to plumbers or cowboys or anyone. To my mind, it’s just careful, robust planning that acknowledges all the possibilities.

[Farrar]

4 hours ago, Sabine said:

May I ask why you normally aren't in favor of high schoolers earning associates degrees? Is it related to costs and scholarships? I know many scholarships are only available to freshmen.  

So... I see homeschoolers hyperfocusing on this lately and while it can be good, I think a lot of people decide on it by making a lot of assumptions instead of thinking about their specific situation.

* People think it will be a huge boon in college admissions... but with so many students doing this now, it's not that much anymore
* People think it will end up saving them money... and sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn't, but you can't assume - you have to know where your kid is heading
* People think it will be at this really high level... but the requirements for the associates aren't for the most part - they force students to do these very basic classes that could be richer at home if you weren't in such a hurry
* People think it will get their kid out of general education courses... but again, this depends on where the student is heading
* People assume that it will give their kids this big leg up by transferring and finishing early... but graduating college by age 19 or 20 is so young and a lot of young people don't really have a sense of what they want to do, and they skipped some of the stuff like internships and research opportunities in order to speedrun their education that might have helped them get into the working world (and actually launch).

There are plenty of situations where it does make sense. I'm a fan of using dual enrollment, but doing it more strategically and focusing less on earning an associates by the end of high school. I think it helps more in admissions for four year colleges to use it strategically and that for students who aren't going to four year colleges right away, they shouldn't rush. Use it to try things out and get a head start on an associates or even try out trades pathways at the CC. Again, there are exceptions. 

 

[Miguelsmom]

You and your husband have to be on the same page whether requiring an associates or a bachelor's degree. I fully believe every highschool student should be trained in a career. Be it tech school or associates by the time they finish highschool. So if it were my son they'd be picking a trade and doing basic general classes as DE or a full associates degree. If you're paying for it fully he should get a business degree whether that's associates or bachelor's it's up to your family. If he has to take out loans respect his wishes not to go on. At that point you're costing him money for something he doesn't want. Also 15 is pretty young to have your whole career goals planned. Not saying it doesn't happen but look into other interests too. 

[City Mouse]

Have you or your DS looked into degrees related to ranch work. I live in the southwest around lots of big ranches, and there are college programs for ranch management, animal science, environmental science, even blacksmithing and gun smithing, and probably stuff I don’t know about. 

While I think “forcing” a young adult to go to college is a waste of time, money, and stress, There may be programs outside of your local area that are more meaningful for him. 

[City Mouse]

Not really related to the original question, but I say this opportunity today and thought of this thread. @Sabine https://nmyrm.nmsu.edu/?fbclid=IwAR3RiR5nQ6ygPwAtIxujbA3fxZDKgJM19SshAFEsglq1FJNDi0VcnZW8oZg_aem_AXoNWVup50CNt79wbH8Pk48aXZ69wYTtT0wnO1mjXHEo4k3MrdJkk2hB8NKB21xUD38 

It is a summer Youth Ranch Management camp.