Social Security benefits question (retirement and beneficiaries questions)

[DawnM]

So, my friend is divorced.   She left him years ago due to his drinking.  Well, the drinking killed him.   

He was 68 and retired and receiving SS benefits.

My friend just found out that she should be entitled to get some of that SS benefit.   She was told to take her marriage and divorce papers to a SS office.

However they told her she needs to get his SS number or it will take a lot longer.   I think she can order it, but it may take a while.   There is no one to ask that she thinks might know it other than a family member who she knows wouldn't give it to her.

So here are my questions:

1. Is there any easier way to get his SS number?

2. Does the surviving family get the full amount or a percentage or what?

 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, DawnM said:

So, my friend is divorced.   She left him years ago due to his drinking.  Well, the drinking killed him.   

He was 68 and retired and receiving SS benefits.

My friend just found out that she should be entitled to get some of that SS benefit.   She was told to take her marriage and divorce papers to a SS office.

However they told her she needs to get his SS number or it will take a lot longer.   I think she can order it, but it may take a while.   There is no one to ask that she thinks might know it other than a family member who she knows wouldn't give it to her.

So here are my questions:

1. Is there any easier way to get his SS number?

2. Does the surviving family get the full amount or a percentage or what?

 

On Ancestry a SS death index often shows the ss number. 

[Hilltopmom]

Old tax records from when they were married?

She doesn’t remember it?

[maize]

Regarding your second question, I think if he has passed away a surviving spouse (even divorced) should be able to claim 100% of his benefit.  She can only claim.the spousal benefit or her own earned benefit,  whichever is higher--not both.

https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-answers/ex-spouse-survivor-benefit.html#:~:text=As with widows and widowers,when he or she died.

 

[maize]

Divorce papers often include SS numbers for both spouses.

[maize]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

On Ancestry a SS death index often shows the ss number. 

It looks like it only goes through 2014.

https://www.ancestry.com/c/family-history-learning-hub/ssdi#:~:text=Ancestry ® has a Social,has over 90 million records.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, maize said:

It looks like it only goes through 2014.

https://www.ancestry.com/c/family-history-learning-hub/ssdi#:~:text=Ancestry ® has a Social,has over 90 million records.

Oh darn 

[BeachGal]

SS has a death master file but you might have to pay for the ss number.
 

Providing she was married to him for at least 10 years, a surviving divorced spouse receives the same SS benefit as a widow.

She would get either her own SS benefit or his widow benefit— not both at the same time. Which benefit would be the optimal choice to take is dependent on her age.

If she’s over age 70, she would choose the higher benefit of the two. If she’s under age 70 then she would want to consider possibly taking the lower benefit initially and then later switching to the higher benefit at either her normal retirement age or age 70.

ETA Early retirement reductions — either hers or his — could affect the amount of the benefit as well. In that case, say if either of them retired early, then the benefit would be adjusted.

Edited January 20 by BeachGal

[Scarlett]

20 minutes ago, DawnM said:

So, my friend is divorced.   She left him years ago due to his drinking.  Well, the drinking killed him.   

He was 68 and retired and receiving SS benefits.

My friend just found out that she should be entitled to get some of that SS benefit.   She was told to take her marriage and divorce papers to a SS office.

However they told her she needs to get his SS number or it will take a lot longer.   I think she can order it, but it may take a while.   There is no one to ask that she thinks might know it other than a family member who she knows wouldn't give it to her.

So here are my questions:

1. Is there any easier way to get his SS number?

2. Does the surviving family get the full amount or a percentage or what?

 

Does she have any old joint tax records? 

[DawnM]

35 minutes ago, maize said:

Divorce papers often include SS numbers for both spouses.

They don't.   She has already looked.

31 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

SS has a death master file but you might have to pay for the ss number.
 

Providing she was married to him for at least 10 years, a surviving divorced spouse receives the same SS benefit as a widow.

She would get either her own SS benefit or his widow benefit— not both at the same time. Which benefit would be the optimal choice to take is dependent on her age.

If she’s over age 70, she would choose the higher benefit of the two. If she’s under age 70 then she would want to consider possibly taking the lower benefit initially and then later switching to the higher benefit at either her normal retirement age or age 70.

ETA Early retirement reductions — either hers or his — could affect the amount of the benefit as well. In that case, say if either of them retired early, then the benefit would be adjusted.

She doesn't have any SS right now, she is still working.   She is 62.

His amount is much more than she will ever get.  

Can she not get it if she isn't a certain age?

28 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Does she have any old joint tax records? 

No

[Pawz4me]

7 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

Can she not get it if she isn't a certain age?

 

She is eligible to start drawing SS at 62, but her full retirement age is 67. Anything she starts drawing now, either on her own record or on the deceased former spouse's record, will be reduced accordingly. I think at her current age the reduction would be roughly 30 percent. Each month that she waits to draw will increase the amount. If she waits until her full retirement age (67) then she'd be eligible for his full amount. That is assuming he didn't start drawing early, and therefore had a reduced amount himself. I don't know how that would affect things.

SS can get very complicated when there are two records to figure out. In this case it's her own and the deceased former spouse's, but the same is true for every married couple. It's a pretty big strategy thing to figure how how to best go about it.

[DawnM]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

She is eligible to start drawing SS at 62, but her full retirement age is 67. Anything she starts drawing now, either on her own record or on the deceased former spouse's record, will be reduced accordingly. I think at her current age the reduction would be roughly 30 percent. Each month that she waits to draw will increase the amount. If she waits until her full retirement age (67) then she'd be eligible for his full amount. That is assuming he didn't start drawing early, and therefore had a reduced amount himself. I don't know how that would affect things.

SS can get very complicated when there are two records to figure out. In this case it's her own and the deceased former spouse's, but the same is true for every married couple. It's a pretty big strategy thing to figure how how to best go about it.

I see, I guess I thought it depended on the original person who drew it (the EX) and so it wouldn't matter when she started drawing it.   Huh.   Thanks.   

[Pawz4me]

Just now, DawnM said:

I see, I guess I thought it depended on the original person who drew it (the EX) and so it wouldn't matter when she started drawing it.   Huh.   Thanks.   

I'm no expert. I could be wrong. SS is extremely complicated, so outside of a financial planner or other qualified person who truly has expertise in the area I'd be leery of accepting any advice given as gospel. But what I posted above is my best understanding. The best thing for her to do is find his SS number and then set up an appointment to speak with someone at the Social Security Administration.

[Heartstrings]

The SS# is on the death certificate if she can get that.  

[*LC]

This is from social security.gov benefits website.

If your ex-spouse is deceased, you can 
receive benefits
If you’re divorced, you can receive benefits based on your deceased ex-spouse’s work if:

• At age 60, or age 50 if you have a disability, if your marriage lasted at least 10 years, and you aren’t entitled to a higher benefit on your own record

She can call and ask SS if she needs his SS number if she has marriage and divorce records.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

So, my friend is divorced.   She left him years ago due to his drinking.  Well, the drinking killed him.   

He was 68 and retired and receiving SS benefits.

My friend just found out that she should be entitled to get some of that SS benefit.   She was told to take her marriage and divorce papers to a SS office.

However they told her she needs to get his SS number or it will take a lot longer.   I think she can order it, but it may take a while.   There is no one to ask that she thinks might know it other than a family member who she knows wouldn't give it to her.

So here are my questions:

1. Is there any easier way to get his SS number?

2. Does the surviving family get the full amount or a percentage or what?

 

I assume she knows his birthdate and death date and full legal name.

She should be able to go to the SS death index and get the number.
I'm not sure how much the spouse gets, I've heard something about half - but the breadwinning spouse doesn't have to be dead for the wife/exwife to get some.  

Not sure how recent the most recent SSDI information I got was . . but it's free to look.  Not sure how recent the accessible information is.  e.g. The census is 70 years? before it can be released.
Her state may also have a digital archive, and it might be on the death certificate for the state where he died.

[maize]

Yes if she elects to take it now the amount will be permanently reduced; it is dependent on her age not his.

 

[KungFuPanda]

Would her bank have it on record from when they had a joint account?  Could she just make an appointment with the social security administration? She’d just have to prove marriage/divorce. They HAVE the number. 

[Sunshine State Sue]

2 hours ago, maize said:

Regarding your second question, I think if he has passed away a surviving spouse (even divorced) should be able to claim 100% of his benefit.

I helped a friend sign up for SS a year or so ago. She was married for >10yrs but divorced. Her ex-dh died. Her full retirement age was 66yo. She waited until 67.5yo to apply mostly because she dithered about finding marriage/divorce papers. I thought she would get 50% of his SS but she got 100%. We discovered that she could have gotten 100% of his SS starting at 66yo (her full retirement age). She lost a year of SS. They did give her 1/2 year back pay.

[BeachGal]

Because she is working and age 62, if she were to collect his benefits now, first they will apply early retirement reductions, and then possibly work deductions depending upon her earnings.

 

[Laura Corin]

3 hours ago, Sunshine State Sue said:

I helped a friend sign up for SS a year or so ago. She was married for >10yrs but divorced. Her ex-dh died. Her full retirement age was 66yo. She waited until 67.5yo to apply mostly because she dithered about finding marriage/divorce papers. I thought she would get 50% of his SS but she got 100%. We discovered that she could have gotten 100% of his SS starting at 66yo (her full retirement age). She lost a year of SS. They did give her 1/2 year back pay.

This is the same as for current spouses, as I understand it. I only have two years of SS contribution myself.  However,  when I reach retirement age I will get 50 percent based on Husband's contributions.  If he were to die thereafter,  I would get 100 percent. 

[DawnM]

Thank you all.

My husband knew some of it last night when I talked to him and he said much the same as some of you are saying.   It sounds like once she decides to take it, she is locked in to that amount and it can't change.

Although DH said there is something he read where she could take her own SS and then after she reaches whatever age she wants the higher amount, she can switch to his, but he didn't know logistically how that all worked.   He is an accountant, not a financial planner.

The other thing he told me was about MY SS.   I may not get it.   I will be drawing a state pension from CA and he said the law states you can't draw a state pension AND SS, even if you paid into it.   I need to look into it further.

You all are right, SS is complicated!

[Laura Corin]

5 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Thank you all.

My husband knew some of it last night when I talked to him and he said much the same as some of you are saying.   It sounds like once she decides to take it, she is locked in to that amount and it can't change.

Although DH said there is something he read where she could take her own SS and then after she reaches whatever age she wants the higher amount, she can switch to his, but he didn't know logistically how that all worked.   He is an accountant, not a financial planner.

The other thing he told me was about MY SS.   I may not get it.   I will be drawing a state pension from CA and he said the law states you can't draw a state pension AND SS, even if you paid into it.   I need to look into it further.

You all are right, SS is complicated!

Re your - pension.  There's a deduction system if you get other public pensions  - that might be the issue. Husband's US SS will be reduced because he will be receiving some UK state pension. 

[DawnM]

1 minute ago, Laura Corin said:

Re your - pension.  There's a deduction system if you get other public pensions  - that might be the issue. Husband's US SS will be reduced because he will be receiving some UK state pension. 

Something like that.

It just irks me because I PAID into both systems!   I pay about $400/mo right now into SS, so I just don't get that money at all?   ARGH!   Stop taking it out of my paycheck if I don't get it back!   

[DawnM]

Ok, I just read online that if you receive a state pension, it will reduce your amount from SS but not eliminate it.

I put in $1000 as the amount I will get from the state (I don't know the amount I was guessing) and it says that will reduce my amount of SS by half of that, so $500.

https://www.ssa.gov/prepare/government-and-foreign-pensions

Ok, that isn't good, but it is something.

Edited January 20 by DawnM

[Pawz4me]

27 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

Although DH said there is something he read where she could take her own SS and then after she reaches whatever age she wants the higher amount, she can switch to his

I think that's correct. DH and I are exploring that right now, with the help of our financial advisor. It is complicated, and we want to make sure we understand things thoroughly. We don't want to make a mistake either by leaving money on the table or by drawing too early and costing ourselves (or whoever survives the longest, which is overwhelmingly likely to be me) a lot.

Edited January 20 by Pawz4me

[freesia]

16 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Ok, I just read online that if you receive a state pension, it will reduce your amount from SS but not eliminate it.

I put in $1000 as the amount I will get from the state (I don't know the amount I was guessing) and it says that will reduce my amount of SS by half of that, so $500.

https://www.ssa.gov/prepare/government-and-foreign-pensions

Ok, that isn't good, but it is something.

It helps me to think of it not as getting my money back, but as supporting the elderly now. 

[Laura Corin]

35 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Something like that.

It just irks me because I PAID into both systems!   I pay about $400/mo right now into SS, so I just don't get that money at all?   ARGH!   Stop taking it out of my paycheck if I don't get it back!   

Yes. Husband paid into both too. 

[historically accurate]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

Ok, I just read online that if you receive a state pension, it will reduce your amount from SS but not eliminate it.

I put in $1000 as the amount I will get from the state (I don't know the amount I was guessing) and it says that will reduce my amount of SS by half of that, so $500.

https://www.ssa.gov/prepare/government-and-foreign-pensions

Ok, that isn't good, but it is something.

I am due both an Illinois' pension and Social Security. Our Illinois pension actually has a page saying I am due both in their entirety. https://www.imrf.org/en/retirees/retirees-must-know/imrf-and-social-security#:~:text=With the exception of a,full retirement benefits from each. I would definitely talk to your pension provider since the page I linked here says that SS tries to lower the benefits for Illinois pensioners commonly. It really depends on how the pension is set up.

Edited January 20 by historically accurate

[BeachGal]

2 hours ago, DawnM said:

Thank you all.

My husband knew some of it last night when I talked to him and he said much the same as some of you are saying.   It sounds like once she decides to take it, she is locked in to that amount and it can't change.

Although DH said there is something he read where she could take her own SS and then after she reaches whatever age she wants the higher amount, she can switch to his, but he didn't know logistically how that all worked.   He is an accountant, not a financial planner.

The other thing he told me was about MY SS.   I may not get it.   I will be drawing a state pension from CA and he said the law states you can't draw a state pension AND SS, even if you paid into it.   I need to look into it further.

You all are right, SS is complicated!

Not knowing the details of your friend’s situation, I would say that she should first take her own lower SS benefit and then at age 67, switch and take her ex-husband’s higher SS. She could make an appointment with SS before she turns 67 to get a benefit estimate or even go online to fill out forms, etc. 

SS will lay out options to consider but it is the benefaciary who ultimately chooses. Ideally, you’d want to work with someone in the SS office who is very knowledgeable. Keep notes and check their advice.

In your situation, you can draw SS but how much you get depends upon how many years and the amount you have paid into it. Research “Windfall Elimination Provision.”

[Hyacinth]

Related advice from our financial planner people: Whenever dealing with the social security office, use the rule of three. Ask three people there your question and don’t believe the answer unless you get the same answer three times. Sadly, the people answering the phones and dealing with the public aren’t always the best trained or most knowledgeable and the stakes are high. 

[BeachGal]

1 minute ago, Hyacinth said:

Related advice from our financial planner people: Whenever dealing with the social security office, use the rule of three. Ask three people there your question and don’t believe the answer unless you get the same answer three times. Sadly, the people answering the phones and dealing with the public aren’t always the best trained or most knowledgeable and the stakes are high. 

^^ Yep.

[Longtime Lurker]

13 hours ago, DawnM said:

I see, I guess I thought it depended on the original person who drew it (the EX) and so it wouldn't matter when she started drawing it.   Huh.   Thanks.   

It depends on both.

12 hours ago, maize said:

Yes if she elects to take it now the amount will be permanently reduced; it is dependent on her age not his.

 

It depends on both. Of course, the age he started drawing SS is a done deal. If she wants to max her survivor benefit, she should wait until her full retirement age.

13 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

Not knowing the details of your friend’s situation, I would say that she should first take her own lower SS benefit and then at age 67, switch and take her ex-husband’s higher SS. She could make an appointment with SS before she turns 67 to get a benefit estimate or even go online to fill out forms, etc. 

If she is still working, her own benefit could be reduced enough to make it not worth it, but this is something to look into. 

[Lady Florida.]

3 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

The other thing he told me was about MY SS.   I may not get it.   I will be drawing a state pension from CA and he said the law states you can't draw a state pension AND SS, even if you paid into it.   I need to look into it further.

 

Is this a state by state thing? I'm drawing my state teacher's retirement pension as well as social security.

[Lady Florida.]

My SS is not reduced and here's why:

https://www.ssa.gov/prepare/government-and-foreign-pensions

your Social Security benefit might be reduced if you get a pension from an employer who wasn’t required to withhold Social Security taxes. This reduction is called the “Windfall Elimination Provision” (WEP). It most commonly affects government work or work in other countries.

You won't have this reduction if you paid Social Security taxes for 30 years on enough work outside your pension-earning job(s).

Edited January 20 by Lady Florida.

[KatieJ]

I haven’t read all the replies.

yes she sound be entitled to his SS, even back when he was alive. As soon he filed she could have been getting half if his. 
however if she has remarried ever since the divorce , she will be denied.

[*LC]

If she married or marries after age 60, she will/would be eligible for ex-husbands social security benefits.

Edited January 20 by *LC

[DawnM]

12 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

My SS is not reduced and here's why:

https://www.ssa.gov/prepare/government-and-foreign-pensions

your Social Security benefit might be reduced if you get a pension from an employer who wasn’t required to withhold Social Security taxes. This reduction is called the “Windfall Elimination Provision” (WEP). It most commonly affects government work or work in other countries.

You won't have this reduction if you paid Social Security taxes for 30 years on enough work outside your pension-earning job(s).

 I worked for 17 years in CA where I did not pay into SS.

I don't know how long I will work in NC.  I am on year 8.   If I make it to 20, I get full health benefits in retirement.   Not sure I can last that long, but I may try.   I am in my mid-50s and really don't want to work until almost 70, but I may try for the health benefits.

But it won't be 30 years.

[DawnM]

9 minutes ago, KatieJ said:

I haven’t read all the replies.

yes she sound be entitled to his SS, even back when he was alive. As soon he filed she could have been getting half if his. 
however if she has remarried ever since the divorce , she will be denied.

Interesting.   She has not remarried.   

Just now, *LC said:

If she married or married after age 60, she will/would be eligible for ex-husbands social security benefits.

No, she was about 40 when she married him.   

[DawnM]

18 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

Is this a state by state thing? I'm drawing my state teacher's retirement pension as well as social security.

There is something where some states have both and it is legit.   NC does that.   CA does not.   So if I am drawing NC and CA, it will affect my earnings apparently.   grrr

[*LC]

This is the SS website with the details. https://www.ssa.gov/benefits/survivors/survivorchartred.html

However, even it says: "If a person receives widow's or widower's benefits, and will qualify for a retirement benefit that's more than their survivors benefit, they can switch to their own retirement benefit as early as age 62 or as late as age 70. The rules are complicated and vary depending on the situation. Talk to a Social Security representative about the options available."

 

 

[DawnM]

2 hours ago, historically accurate said:

I am due both an Illinois' pension and Social Security. Our Illinois pension actually has a page saying I am due both in their entirety. https://www.imrf.org/en/retirees/retirees-must-know/imrf-and-social-security#:~:text=With the exception of a,full retirement benefits from each. I would definitely talk to your pension provider since the page I linked here says that SS tries to lower the benefits for Illinois pensioners commonly. It really depends on how the pension is set up.

Interesting.   What is IMRF?

[Lady Florida.]

7 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 I worked for 17 years in CA where I did not pay into SS.

 

The bolded seems to be the key. I always worked where I paid into it. 

[*LC]

  3 minutes ago, *LC said:

If she married or married after age 60, she will/would be eligible for ex-husbands social security benefits.

No, she was about 40 when she married him.   

....,.

Sorry, my post wasn't clear. If she marries someone else after she is 60, she will not lose social security benefits through her ex-husband's social security. You can see that information on the website I posted. I have a good friend who remarried later in life, who was extremely concerned about this when she fell in love with a wonderful man.

[BeachGal]

1 hour ago, KatieJ said:

I haven’t read all the replies.

yes she sound be entitled to his SS, even back when he was alive. As soon he filed she could have been getting half if his. 
however if she has remarried ever since the divorce , she will be denied.

If she was not yet 62 when he filed, then she could not receive his benefit. She would have had to be at least age 62.

[BeachGal]

If she remarried before age 60 after divorcing her ex, then that could be a problem for your friend. After age 60, it's not a problem.

If she remarried before age 60 after divorcing her ex, got divorced from the second husband later (for example, remarried at age 50 and divorced that guy at age 59), then she is re-entitled to her first ex's SS benefit.

Edited January 20 by BeachGal

[BeachGal]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

 I worked for 17 years in CA where I did not pay into SS.

I don't know how long I will work in NC.  I am on year 8.   If I make it to 20, I get full health benefits in retirement.   Not sure I can last that long, but I may try.   I am in my mid-50s and really don't want to work until almost 70, but I may try for the health benefits.

But it won't be 30 years.

You will be entitled to some amount of SS. It won't be as much as if you have paid in for 30 years but it probably won't be all that low, either.

You can request your Social Security Statement (SS benefit and earnings statement) which will give you an idea of what you will receive. This is good to get just to make sure SS has your earnings properly reported.

https://www.ssa.gov/myaccount/statement.html

[DawnM]

20 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

You will be entitled to some amount of SS. It won't be as much as if you have paid in for 30 years but it probably won't be all that low, either.

You can request your Social Security Statement (SS benefit and earnings statement) which will give you an idea of what you will receive. This is good to get just to make sure SS has your earnings properly reported.

https://www.ssa.gov/myaccount/statement.html

I have my statement.   I just don't know how much they will take out because I worked for 17 years where I didn't pay into it and instead paid into a state pension plan.

[KatieJ]

1 hour ago, BeachGal said:

If she remarried before age 60 after divorcing her ex, then that could be a problem for your friend. After age 60, it's not a problem.

If she remarried before age 60 after divorcing her ex, got divorced from the second husband later (for example, remarried at age 50 and divorced that guy at age 59), then she is re-entitled to her first ex's SS benefit.

My sister fits that scenario and she was denied. That’s really my only experience with it although I know currently is in that situation and had no she was entitled to his SS. She is currently working it thru. 

[BeachGal]

2 hours ago, DawnM said:

I have my statement.   I just don't know how much they will take out because I worked for 17 years where I didn't pay into it and instead paid into a state pension plan.

You’ll need to refer to WEP to calculate what you’ll receive. For not paying in for 17 years, it is not a bad deal. You need to work and pay into SS for 10 years to collect. One more year.