Wintering in an RV

[DawnM]

 

We are not in a super cold climate, but we do definitely get below freezing at night for several months of the year.

We know nothing about RVs.   One used RV on FB Marketplace said that the bottom of the trailer had been "winterized" with a heated and sealed underbelly.    Is that something you can do after you purchase or does that need to be done during production?

Anyone lived in an RV in the winter?   Is this unrealistic for him to live in an RV for a year or more?   

I have found some tiny homes for under $50k, but RVs are still significantly less expensive for the same size/type, etc....but I don't want to spend a HUGE amount on electricity to heat it (and the outdoors!) either.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by DawnM

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

We camp through November in a central New York climate.

RVs are not well insulated unless you look specifically for that, even the ones that claim to have the winter package on it. We have caulked the windows and insulated the underbelly and pipes ourselves to extend our camping season.  Also many people skirt the camper.  There’s Facebook group on RV full time living that have a lot of winterizing tips as well. 
 

https://tinyhousedesign.com/living-fulltime-in-rv-in-winter/

[Katy]

I followed a couple of families on Youtube for a while who bought RV’s planning on living in them for a year or two while they built houses themselves (after work, with kids). Neither could hack it a full year. Both new campers developed leaks (both rain infiltration AND plumbing lines) and mold in less than a year. 
 

I don’t think tiny homes are better because most of them are on trailers no foundations. But building a tiny home in place, to code, would be fairly quick and increase property values. 

[DawnM]

6 minutes ago, Katy said:

I followed a couple of families on Youtube for a while who bought RV’s planning on living in them for a year or two while they built houses themselves (after work, with kids). Neither could hack it a full year. Both new campers developed leaks (both rain infiltration AND plumbing lines) and mold in less than a year. 
 

I don’t think tiny homes are better because most of them are on trailers no foundations. But building a tiny home in place, to code, would be fairly quick and increase property values. 

Tiny houses are typically better insulated and because of that, they are heavier.

One local tiny house for sale says they even used spray foam insulation, but it is a much pricier option.

 

 

[Pawz4me]

He'd likely get quite chilly in an RV in your area. Most of them leak air like crazy--little to no insulation and lots of tiny gaps. The heated and sealed underbelly is more for keeping the RV's water lines from freezing than for occupant comfort.

[DawnM]

4 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

He'd likely get quite chilly in an RV in your area. Most of them leak air like crazy--little to no insulation and lots of tiny gaps. The heated and sealed underbelly is more for keeping the RV's water lines from freezing than for occupant comfort.

That is what I am thinking.   I know people do live in them in the winter, but I am thinking this isn't really the best option.

[Pam in CT]

23 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

He'd likely get quite chilly in an RV in your area. Most of them leak air like crazy--little to no insulation and lots of tiny gaps. The heated and sealed underbelly is more for keeping the RV's water lines from freezing than for occupant comfort.

This.

We've used ours into November for particular logistical reasons (ie en route to a warmer place, a night or two in someone's driveway as overflow guests for an event). It's fine for a night or two, but it takes bundling up and a lot of electricity.

Once you're on the other side of this winter, you might be able to rent an RV (or even more affordable, detached camper) to get him through spring-next fall while you're working on the permanent solution.

 

Just rabbit trailed down modular tiny houses. Some of them are just marvelous!

[DawnM]

3 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

This.

We've used ours into November for particular logistical reasons (ie en route to a warmer place, a night or two in someone's driveway as overflow guests for an event). It's fine for a night or two, but it takes bundling up and a lot of electricity.

Once you're on the other side of this winter, you might be able to rent an RV (or even more affordable, detached camper) to get him through spring-next fall while you're working on the permanent solution.

 

Just rabbit trailed down modular tiny houses. Some of them are just marvelous!

I meant camper......it doesn't need to be driven and we do have an SUV to tow it, particularly if it is local.

Renting them is VERY expensive, about as much as a hotel stay.  I have done some digging on that.

There are also tiny homes that were made out of a shed, but they would need a flat bed to move and I have no idea on the cost of that.   I think we would prefer wheels though so it is moveable.

[mmasc]

My info is limited, but I will say that we lived in ours the entire month of December one time (during a military move). We had a couple of problems—one water line did freeze and therefore busted which caused a leak. Dh had to fix it obviously. It was inconvenient but not a huge thing to fix. We ran a small electric heater in the bathroom so we wouldn’t freeze coming out of the shower. The rv’s heating unit kept the rest of the rv plenty warm and comfortable enough. 

A few things to consider: 1) the heat might be propane (ours is) and

2) I have no idea how much the electricity bill would increase, but surely quite a bit, so consider that cost

and probably most important is

3) where will you dump sewage? Those tanks fill up surprisingly fast! I mean, you could have him come inside to use the plumbing, but if you do that, why not just let him live inside the main home until his is built, kwim?

Eta: ours is a large travel trailer, not the drivable rv kind

Edited September 24, 2023 by mmasc
More info

[Carrie12345]

We used to do a winter weekend or two per year in our permanently parked camper. And I’m talking an already old camper in the late 80s/early 90s. I don’t remember ever being terribly uncomfortable.  HOWEVER, I imagine my parents paid a fortune for the propane heat each trip!

[DawnM]

5 minutes ago, mmasc said:

My info is limited, but I will say that we lived in ours the entire month of December one time (during a military move). We had a couple of problems—one water line did freeze and therefore busted which caused a leak. Dh had to fix it obviously. It was inconvenient but not a huge thing to fix. We ran a small electric heater in the bathroom so we wouldn’t freeze coming out of the shower. The rv’s heating unit kept the rest of the rv plenty warm and comfortable enough. 

A few things to consider: 1) the heat might be propane (ours is) and

2) I have no idea how much the electricity bill would increase, but surely quite a bit, so consider that cost

and probably most important is

3) where will you dump sewage? Those tanks fill up surprisingly fast! I mean, you could have him come inside to use the plumbing, but if you do that, why not just let him live inside the main home until his is built, kwim?

Eta: ours is a large travel trailer, not the drivable rv kind

Sewage and power will be trapped into the main house.   Dh knows how to run the sewer/water and make it connect to the main house.    We may need a power line run out.   Not sure yet.

One couple who live in a trailer year round said that an oil space heater worked best and even though it takes longer to heat up, it stays heated without too much power to it.   That might be one option.

[J-rap]

I don't know anything about RV's, but a friend of mine has a tiny home near their home and it's very cozy in the winter (I'm talking really cold northern climate winters).  

I have another friend who's been looking into turning a cargo container into a tiny home for their adult child, this also in a northern climate.  I don't know much about them either, but perhaps they're easier to insulate than an RV?

[Faith-manor]

In your climate, I would expect a 30 lb cylinder of propane to used up every 60 hours, at the outside 72 hours. RV propane here is about $48 to fill a 30 lb tank so roughly $480-576 per month in your cold season plus electricity. This will keep him from freezing. Due to the utter lack of insulation, he will not be comfortable. That is a lot of heating money for such a tiny space, and in order to sleep decently, he definitely needs an electric blanket for the bed. On top of rent which is never cheap, I am not sure if this is better than just looking for an Extended Stay hotel where he would have a little kitchen, warm bed, decent bathroom, etc. Please do not use a space heater in an RV. They are big fire hazard because the electrical wiring inside rv's is cheap, and is not rated for this. They can easily overheat the wiring in the walls and start a fire. 

These things are not built for wintering over. People who embrace the RV life make for the south, West Coast, or Southwest for winter. 

[Pawz4me]

12 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

One couple who live in a trailer year round said that an oil space heater worked best and even though it takes longer to heat up, it stays heated without too much power to it.   That might be one option.

He'd need to be extremely careful with auxiliary heating in an RV. Many of the components are highly flammable. We did very occasionally use an electric space heater when we had our large RV. It had automatic shutoff if it reached a set temperature or tipped over, but even that still made me (and DH) very nervous. We watched it like hawks. The thought of an oil space heater in an RV kind of terrifies me, but possibly I'm ignorant of the safety features.

[mmasc]

2 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

He'd need to be extremely careful with auxiliary heating in an RV. Many of the components are highly flammable. We did very occasionally use an electric space heater when we had our large RV. It had automatic shutoff if it reached a set temperature or tipped over, but even that still made me (and DH) very nervous. We watched it like hawks. The thought of an oil space heater in an RV kind of terrifies me, but possibly I'm ignorant of the safety features.

Oh yeah…definitely this! I should add that we *only* used our space heater to heat up the bathroom before shower-time. The bathroom is teeny-tiny, so it didn’t take long at all. (15-ish minutes?) Then we’d ALL take our showers one after the other and turn it back off. 

[itsheresomewhere]

25 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

He'd need to be extremely careful with auxiliary heating in an RV. Many of the components are highly flammable. We did very occasionally use an electric space heater when we had our large RV. It had automatic shutoff if it reached a set temperature or tipped over, but even that still made me (and DH) very nervous. We watched it like hawks. The thought of an oil space heater in an RV kind of terrifies me, but possibly I'm ignorant of the safety features.

The sealed oil filled ones now are so much safer than you think. We use one on ours as a back up/second heat source. I can touch ours no burns,  it has a tip over shut off and works better than the electric one we had.  Been using it for a few years now and I am happy with it.

 

Dawn,  our camper has a winter package as we had much colder temps and it does help.  We don’t use the ware in winter camping as it isn’t worth the risk to us. All used water goes into a bucket that I take outside, bathrooms are used at the campground.  So depending on your temps, you might want to think about that.
 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by itsheresomewhere

[KungFuPanda]

I think an RV would be too expensive and temporary and uncomfortable. You could find a home with an in-law suite or a basement apartment and that would be much more comfortable. Or, he could just use a bedroom in the house until you get the garage apartment built. The RV is always going to feel like glamorous camping and nobody will want to deal with the sewage situation. 
 

At some point, we have to admit that tiny homes and rvs are mobile homes without the stigma and some variations. You might as well look at some trailers because they’re designed for long term living with adult sized bathrooms and real kitchens. Only the garage apartment, home modification, or building an actual cottage is going to appreciate. The rest are like buying a car. A small mobile home will be the most physically comfortable and cost less per square foot. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by KungFuPanda

[mlktwins]

I am probably the odd person out, but I would focus on getting your new home and building the garage/apartment. Could he not stay in the house for a year (or 2) until that is complete knowing you are working towards a more permanent (and probably more customized) option for him?

[Halftime Hope]

I had a colleague who lived in an RV for 4 years in North Texas. She is a very self-sufficient woman, has years of experience living overseas in third-world conditions, and she is quite resourceful at things like keeping warm and cool. She was *very* glad to move out of her RV into a home. While you and I would be careful/safe and find ways to endure -- we're moms! -- I wouldn't expect that from a young adult who might not understand what is dangerous and what is not.

[Ottakee]

Does your son want to leave with/near you long term?  
 

i can’t remember all the details but remember that he has some added challenges.   Does he drive?  If not, is there excellent public transportation where you are looking at moving?

with my own young adults with special needs I moved to an area with excellent public transportation.    I know many of my students (young adults 18-26 with special needs) are stuck based on where they live.  With no public transportation options they can’t get a job, do their own shopping, visit friends, etc.  several families are now looking at moving or having their young adult get an apartment or assisted living place in an area with public transportation.

[DawnM]

No, no public transportation and no, he doesn't' drive.   And no, we can't change either of those things.

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by DawnM

[Ottakee]

26 minutes ago, DawnM said:

No, no public transportation and no, he doesn't' drive.   And no, we can't change either of those things.

 

Is there an area near you that offers walkability or public transportation…or even reliable taxi/Uber ?  I just see over and over again how limiting lack of transportation is for those with special needs.

[DawnM]

2 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

Is there an area near you that offers walkability or public transportation…or even reliable taxi/Uber ?  I just see over and over again how limiting lack of transportation is for those with special needs.

No.   He could uber but doesn't really need to, Dh works from home and drives him where he needs to go.

[Ottakee]

24 minutes ago, DawnM said:

No.   He could uber but doesn't really need to, Dh works from home and drives him where he needs to go.

That is nice.  Most of my students (and my own kids) don’t have a parent at home during the day to help with driving 

[rebcoola]

Idk how much they spend but parents bought a winterized camper and lived in it a yr and change while their house was being built outside Jackson hole.  They were quite comfortable my mom doesnt do roughing it.

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think an RV would be too expensive and temporary and uncomfortable. You could find a home with an in-law suite or a basement apartment and that would be much more comfortable. Or, he could just use a bedroom in the house until you get the garage apartment built. The RV is always going to feel like glamorous camping and nobody will want to deal with the sewage situation. 
 

At some point, we have to admit that tiny homes and rvs are mobile homes without the stigma and some variations. You might as well look at some trailers because they’re designed for long term living with adult sized bathrooms and real kitchens. Only the garage apartment, home modification, or building an actual cottage is going to appreciate. The rest are like buying a car. A small mobile home will be the most physically comfortable and cost less per square foot. 

This.

We know someone who used a small trailer or modular home to make a granny suite in their property (and granny lived there). It is a nice and comfortable guest cottage, and somehow it doesn’t look like a trailer—might’ve also been smaller. They did have to make some concessions for taxes and assessments when their somewhat rural property got city water—they couldn’t install a normal kitchen sink faucet, or else they had to pay a lot more, so they had to install a bar style faucet. It worked well enough.

2 hours ago, Ottakee said:

Is there an area near you that offers walkability or public transportation…or even reliable taxi/Uber ?  I just see over and over again how limiting lack of transportation is for those with special needs.

Nodding along. Even if the person has a waiver to get transportation from the county or an agency that picks people up, getting it reliably takes time.

It’s a huge deal. 

[Faith-manor]

Just a quick reminder to anyone thinking about 2nd houses, tiny houses, guest cottages, etc. to check your township zoning. It isn't just a matter of not having an HOA, townships sometimes restrict 2nd homes of any kind on the same property even if you own acreage. In those cases, you usually need to pay for surveying, and parcel off a piece of the property from the original, and then run a well and septic if the property is ineligible to hook up to city water. Our township will allow someone to live on our property in a camper for up to 30 days but not more than that. We are entitled to a guest house on our well and septic, but in the township north of here, they have zoning against that. Guest quarters over a garage or in a basement is what folks do or apply for a zoning waiver to divide the house into a duplex. I know some townships give those waivers, and yet others who absolutely will not.

We have been checking into this because we want to have a summer place up north for the summers - Alabama is too hot for us from May-September, and summer gardens are a problem because of this. So we want a place in our beautiful Great Lakes, and we want to have an area for all of our adult kids and honorary kids to come camp for vacations. We are having to look way outside of towns and in certain townships. There are places we can buy 10 acres, put in a deep well, a bigger septic system, and then toss up a bathhouse, a small home for us, and allow multiple campers or tents. None of these places are close to well developed areas. We are also looking at buying a couple cute 12x16 sheds to finish out into guest houses. But again, we are limited in areas to choose from due to desiring this.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Faith-manor
Autocorrect is evil

[Ottakee]

11 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Just a quick reminder to anyone thinking about 2nd houses, tiny houses, guest cottages, etc. to check your township zoning. It isn't just a matter of not having an HOA, townships sometimes restrict 2nd homes of any kind on the same property every if you own acreage. In those cases, you usually need to pay for surveying, and parcel off a piece of the property from the original, and then run a well and septic I'd the property is ineligible to hook up to city water. Our township will allow someone to live on our property in a camper for up to 30 days but not more than that. We are entitled to a guest house on our well and septic, but in the township north of here, they have zoning against that. Guest quarters over a garage or in a basement is what folks do or apply for a zoning waiver to divide the house into a duplex. I know some townships give those waivers, and yet others who absolutely will not.

We have been checking into this because we want to have a summer place up north for the summers - Alabama is too hot for us from May-September, and summer gardens are a problem because of this. So we want a place in our beautiful Great Lakes, and we want to have an area for all of our adult kids and honorary kids to come camp for vacations. We are having to look way outside of towns and in certain townships. There are places we can buy 10 acres, put in a deep well, a bigger septic system, and then toss up a bathhouse, a small home for us, and allow multiple campers or tents. None of these places are close to well developed areas. We are also looking at buying a couple cute 12x16 sheds to finish out into first houses. But again, we are limited in areas to choose from due to desiring this.

Yes, yes and more yes.    I was in a rural west Michigan township….like no traffic lights in the entire 36 square miles….and a trailer to live in or a second residence was NOT allowed at all.  Houses had to be at least 1200 sq ft, etc as well.

[Carrie12345]

14 hours ago, Ottakee said:

Yes, yes and more yes.    I was in a rural west Michigan township….like no traffic lights in the entire 36 square miles….and a trailer to live in or a second residence was NOT allowed at all.  Houses had to be at least 1200 sq ft, etc as well.

That’s how it is here, too. My friends have parents who RV full time, and they get fined if they stay on their property for more than a certain number of days a year.

The family also owns 40 acres where they have a lot of camping parties, now also limited in how many days per year.

No HOA on either property, just a sleepy little township in the middle of nowhere.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

That’s how it is here, too. My friends have parents who RV full time, and they get fined if they stay on their property for more than a certain number of days a year.

The family also owns 40 acres where they have a lot of camping parties, now also limited in how many days per year.

No HOA on either property, just a sleepy little township in the middle of nowhere.

Sometimes I think the worst of the fascists congregate together on rural zoning boards. One of the worst ones I know about tried to fine a horse farm on land zoned agricultural for not mowing a field. It was hay that wasn't ready to cut! The evil little dictators were positively awful about it. I sent a letter to the zoning board and suggested that if their little, delicate snowflake hearts were so easily pierced by the mere action of agriculture happening in an agricultural community, they should move back to suburbia. They weren't amused. Too bad. It was ridiculous.

The thing is, a lot of this crappy zoning stuff is going to change either by force of will, the people resisting and doing what they need to do, or by legislative agenda because the deck is so entirely stacked against Gen Z and Gen Alpha, that multifamily homes of related folks, not apartment dwellers with each family having their own space, is going to be necessary or there will be a massive homeless population. Tiny houses, cabins, large homes split into living spaces for multiple families but not independent zoned space for rentals will have to become the norm. What we have is not tenable and with out of control housing costs, corporations buying up everything to make vacation rentals, wages so bizarrely low for the cost of living in so many places, young people will need to live with relatives for many years to come, and a lot of elderly folks can't pay the bills anymore on what they managed to save for retirement and social security. Something will have to give, and legislators and zoning boards will eventually feel tremendous pain of everyone rebelling against this stuff whether they like it or not. It is one thing to go after a single family in a township. It is quite another to fight with 40,  50, or 100 families in a single township or village. But until then, folks really do have to do their research to figure out what they can make work for the family around the maze of red tape in every locale.

[PeterPan]

21 hours ago, DawnM said:

No.   He could uber but doesn't really need to, Dh works from home and drives him where he needs to go.

I'm surprised your county board of disabilities has *no* supports, options, transportation, anything when he has significant enough disabilities that he cannot drive. It's true they have kind of a tricky system where they want 3 of 6 areas affected in our state, so people can fall through the cracks. Still it might be worth checking again to see if his mix has become apparent enough that he would qualify.

Your ideas don't seem to have a lot of long term viability. What happens when you no longer live on that property or your dh can't drive? It's not so much about what you can make work now but what sets him up in a routine that is viable long term. 

It's also an awkward situation for you to be covering for mental health choices another adult makes. It should be that *he* has to deal with the choices and life reality that shrink because of his choices, not you. For instance, if he's choosing not to access certain kinds of mental health treatment, which then result in anxiety which affects his ability to drive, then the hard reality is that means he needs to go to a living situation that provides transportation or move to a place that has public transportation or learn to use Uber. To say the he chooses not to do something that as a cascade affects mom and dad, meaning you can't leave on a trip without him, you can't leave him at home for a week or two or three, that's hogwash. That's you being stuck with his choices. 

My ds is pretty similar. His support level is 2 for his autism and it's very questionable whether he could live independently. He could live near someone with support and he could live in a group setting that he got used to. He's crazy intelligent and he is able to learn to do things. With enough mental health medications, he's able to be functional, but he doesn't have the maturity and whatever to quite comprehend it all or why he needs this or how to manage it. It would be completely untenable for my ds to be 18+ and making choices that leave ME stuck. If HE makes a choice (or refuses to sign paperwork that allows us to help him) then HE deals with the consequences of the choice. 

I've met people who kind of slid into these situations where they can't travel, can't even go away overnight, on and on, because their 18+ kids are not set up with experiences and situations to make it work. If he cannot drive and will not learn to use any form of transportation, then you're rather trapped. The logic isn't there to me. His choices, his consequences.

As far as your original question, it sounds like he needs to go into an apartment. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by PeterPan

[DawnM]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

I'm surprised your county board of disabilities has *no* supports, options, transportation, anything when he has significant enough disabilities that he cannot drive. It's true they have kind of a tricky system where they want 3 of 6 areas affected in our state, so people can fall through the cracks. Still it might be worth checking again to see if his mix has become apparent enough that he would qualify.

Your ideas don't seem to have a lot of long term viability. What happens when you no longer live on that property or your dh can't drive? It's not so much about what you can make work now but what sets him up in a routine that is viable long term. 

It's also an awkward situation for you to be covering for mental health choices another adult makes. It should be that *he* has to deal with the choices and life reality that shrink because of his choices, not you. For instance, if he's choosing not to access certain kinds of mental health treatment, which then result in anxiety which affects his ability to drive, then the hard reality is that means he needs to go to a living situation that provides transportation or move to a place that has public transportation or learn to use Uber. To say the he chooses not to do something that as a cascade affects mom and dad, meaning you can't leave on a trip without him, you can't leave him at home for a week or two or three, that's hogwash. That's you being stuck with his choices. 

My ds is pretty similar. His support level is 2 for his autism and it's very questionable whether he could live independently. He could live near someone with support and he could live in a group setting that he got used to. He's crazy intelligent and he is able to learn to do things. With enough mental health medications, he's able to be functional, but he doesn't have the maturity and whatever to quite comprehend it all or why he needs this or how to manage it. It would be completely untenable for my ds to be 18+ and making choices that leave ME stuck. If HE makes a choice (or refuses to sign paperwork that allows us to help him) then HE deals with the consequences of the choice. 

I've met people who kind of slid into these situations where they can't travel, can't even go away overnight, on and on, because their 18+ kids are not set up with experiences and situations to make it work. If he cannot drive and will not learn to use any form of transportation, then you're rather trapped. The logic isn't there to me. His choices, his consequences.

As far as your original question, it sounds like he needs to go into an apartment. 

I don't know how this turned into parenting advice.   I didn't ask for any.   This has to do with wintering in an RV.  

[DawnM]

16 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Just a quick reminder to anyone thinking about 2nd houses, tiny houses, guest cottages, etc. to check your township zoning. It isn't just a matter of not having an HOA, townships sometimes restrict 2nd homes of any kind on the same property even if you own acreage. In those cases, you usually need to pay for surveying, and parcel off a piece of the property from the original, and then run a well and septic if the property is ineligible to hook up to city water. Our township will allow someone to live on our property in a camper for up to 30 days but not more than that. We are entitled to a guest house on our well and septic, but in the township north of here, they have zoning against that. Guest quarters over a garage or in a basement is what folks do or apply for a zoning waiver to divide the house into a duplex. I know some townships give those waivers, and yet others who absolutely will not.

We have been checking into this because we want to have a summer place up north for the summers - Alabama is too hot for us from May-September, and summer gardens are a problem because of this. So we want a place in our beautiful Great Lakes, and we want to have an area for all of our adult kids and honorary kids to come camp for vacations. We are having to look way outside of towns and in certain townships. There are places we can buy 10 acres, put in a deep well, a bigger septic system, and then toss up a bathhouse, a small home for us, and allow multiple campers or tents. None of these places are close to well developed areas. We are also looking at buying a couple cute 12x16 sheds to finish out into guest houses. But again, we are limited in areas to choose from due to desiring this.

We are aware of all of that, we have already checked.   

[catz]

My parents had a travel trailer RV they used year round for years.   They mostly went to Texas.  They found it pretty miserable when cooler.  And they spent money on winterizing.  Also expensive and a little scary to heat.   I wouldn’t think this would be the best use of funds if you were looking at other long term solutions.   I would assume he’d just end up in the main home a ton anyway.