s/o on Christians who don't go to church....

[bkpan]

I didn't want to hijack that thread, but a thought kept nagging at me as I was reading all the posts from those who found reasons to leave their churches over negative experiences...

 

How can you be sure that you are "growing" and "closer" to the Lord when you simply worship alone and with your family? I mean, the Scriptures teach that the heart is deceitful above all things. So, if you are left alone as the barometer of your Christian walk, aren't you taking a very real risk in trusting the human heart as opposed to the Body of Christ??

 

I truly don't want to make anyone defensive or offended. I am sincerely wondering how there is any level of accountability in such an arrangement? We all know of seemingly very strong believers that have slowly wandered away, grown cold in their faith... How can any of us be so confident that we will be different?

 

Yes, the early Church was organized. The Bible itself came FROM the Church, not the other way around. I am looking so forward to studying Church history with my kids (another wonderful gift in hs!).

 

The local church is flawed and imperfect. Hmmm, just like me.

 

Kim

[astrid]

Perhaps because this is a very sensitive subject for me, yes, I find myself offended and defensive about your post. I understand that you say you didn't intend it to be judgemental and offensive, but I bristled. Forgive me; I"m just being honest.

 

I guess what I don't understand, and maybe it's because I"m not a "good enough Christian" (my words) is why it's not enough to live a Christian life, be a good person, be Christlike in my words and deeds? I know it gets into all that "salvation" stuff, but it's my belief that the kingdom of Heaven isn't reserved seating. When it comes to faith, I don't, personally, feel the need to be "accountable" to anyone but my own conscience at least at this stage in my life.

 

I don't mean to come off sounding rude or disrespectful. I felt moved to respond, and did so thoughtfully and from the heart. But I"d be lying if I didn't add that I've got wicked cold feet about clicking the "post" button. Ah.....krep. I probably shouldn't have even responded, and I don't mean to start a fight, just sharing my thoughts. It's late, and nothing good ever comes from posting here late at night.

 

Peace,

Astrid

Edited December 22, 2008 by astrid
thought of more to add

[snickelfritz]

How can you be sure that you are "growing" and "closer" to the Lord when you simply worship alone and with your family? I mean, the Scriptures teach that the heart is deceitful above all things. So, if you are left alone as the barometer of your Christian walk, aren't you taking a very real risk in trusting the human heart as opposed to the Body of Christ??

 

 

I know multiple examples of whole churchs that strayed into false doctrine.

 

I think your trust should not be in the "Body of Christ", but in Christ.

 

We attend church, but try to be careful to not be complacent about blindly accepting what any "church" says is "truth."

[LBC]

I think I understand what you're asking. Rather than trying to answer this myself, I'm going to paste in an excerpt from the blog entry linked by KathyBC. You can find the entire entry here: http://lifestream.org/LSBL.May01.html

 

But don't our institutions keep us from error?

I'm sorry to burst your bubble here, but every major heresy that has been inflicted on God's people for the last 2,000 years has come from organized groups with 'leaders' who thought they knew God's mind better than anyone around them. Conversely, virtually every move of God among people hungering for him was rejected by the 'church' of that day and were excluded, excommunicated or executed for following God.

If that is where you hope to find security, I'm afraid it is sorely misplaced. Jesus didn't tell us that 'going to church' would keep us safe, but that trusting him would. He gave us an anointing of the Spirit so that we would know the difference between truth and error. That anointing is cultivated as we learn his ways in his Word and grow closer to his heart. It will help you recognize when expressions of church you share life with becomes destructive to his work in you.

 

I don't just trust my feelings. I go to scripture when I'm not sure about something. If anything, I think it was dependence on my feelings that allowed me to stay in a church for 14 years that was doctrinally unsound, and spiritually manipulative. I'm not being defensive here. I'm just trying to answer your question as honestly as I can.

Lori

 

ETA: This is in response to OP.

Edited December 22, 2008 by LBC

[astrid]

Just to clarify....you're quoting the OP, not my post, under which yours falls.

 

Peace,

Astrid

[The Governess]

How can you be sure that you are "growing" and "closer" to the Lord when you simply worship alone and with your family? I mean, the Scriptures teach that the heart is deceitful above all things. So, if you are left alone as the barometer of your Christian walk, aren't you taking a very real risk in trusting the human heart as opposed to the Body of Christ??

 

 

Are you assuming that all people who stop going to church cut out contact with all of the Christians in their lives as well?

 

I can give you my experience. We have gone through a few year-or-two-long periods in our marriage where we weren't going to church. But we didn't stop meeting with family and friends that shared our beliefs, or stop discussing theology, or stop growing. In fact, I would say that most of my growth in my Christian faith has taken place with my friends and family outside of normal "church": Helping each other through crises, praying for each other, holding bible studies or simply discussing books we've read or sharing meals. No matter what church we attend, these people that I am closest to are my first church family.

 

I agree with you that it's important to have people in your life that you can depend on for accountability, for advice, for an outside opinion. There are several people in my life that I know I could go to if I was having a spiritual crisis; my current pastor is only one of them. If I didn't already have a strong network of friends and family that shared my faith, I would probably rely on a church body more than I do. But I don't feel that not attending church regularly led me astray in any way. I enjoy going, but traditional church is only one of many ways to worship and learn about God, in my opinion.

[Nestof3]

I prefer to look at what scripture says about things rather than respond with my own opinions and reactions (don't we all have opinions?), so I would like to just say this:

 

Hebrews 10-24-25

and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging {one another;} and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

 

1 Cor 12:14-21 (just quoting part here)

And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."

 

My thoughts on this:

Though I do not see the scriptures insisting that one must always attend a "formal church service" (in fact that could be its own can of worms), regular meeting together of believers is definitely an exhortation in the scripture. Though certainly not always the case, often when people get out of the habit of meeting with other believers, one also gets out of the habit of studying scripture on one's own.

 

I know it gets into all that "salvation" stuff, but it's my belief that the kingdom of Heaven isn't reserved seating. When it comes to faith, I don't, personally, feel the need to be "accountable" to anyone but my own conscience at least at this stage in my life.

 

 

I would encourage you to study the benefits of accountability in the scripture. I'm not sure what you mean by "salvation stuff" and reserved seating, though.

Edited December 22, 2008 by nestof3

[KathyBC]

How can you be sure that you are "growing" and "closer" to the Lord when you simply worship alone and with your family? I mean, the Scriptures teach that the heart is deceitful above all things. So, if you are left alone as the barometer of your Christian walk, aren't you taking a very real risk in trusting the human heart as opposed to the Body of Christ??

 

snip

 

Yes, the early Church was organized. The Bible itself came FROM the Church, not the other way around. I am looking so forward to studying Church history with my kids (another wonderful gift in hs!).

 

All human hearts are deceitful. Trusting your peers is not a fail-safe barometer, as they cannot truly read your heart; in addition peers have all the human failings present in their own hearts.

 

The Bible does NOT come from the Church, but is the inherent word of God.

 

Though certainly not always the case, often when people get out of the habit of meeting with other believers, one also gets out of the habit of studying scripture on one's own.

 

To echo lovelearnandlive, are you assuming that all people who stop going to church cut out contact with all of the Christians in their lives? I study scripture more now than in the past. I guess I could quote scripture also.

For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

 

I'm presuming that spouses, parents, siblings are uniquely positioned to hold each other far more accountable than relative strangers could. We don't plan to form a cult anytime soon. :D In fact, I feel we have at least a bit more time to spend with others because so much of our time is not committed to a specific meeting.

 

There's my random, late-night .02. Pleasant dreams, all!

Edited December 22, 2008 by KathyBC

[BMW]

Goodness... I have strong reactions to both sides of the issue!!

 

People fail us. They are simply people. I've been hurt deeply by those sitting with me or at the pulpit of a church. They were people. Sinners like myself. But those that led a church I was in looked the other way when my dh was abusive. I have a very, very hard time with that.

 

And I was hurt most deeply by my original, betrothed "beloved", my first husband who tore apart everything I held dear and abuse our children. He would not hold himself accountable to any person in our sphere of influence. We were yanked out of church any time that people got to know us "too" well and his privacy/secrecy and wrongdoings were close to being observed. I heard all sorts of reasons for staying out of church. Being "Christians at home and studying for ourselves" meant secrecy. I've known other Christians who stay at home for various reason and have done a wonderful job raising terrific children and have shown a great light to others.

 

So, I look at it this way... the truth is somewhere in between... we will be hurt by all manner of people... church is not the end all of our beliefs, but it can be a strong fortress in which to raise our children and to plug in to... "can be" are the key words there.

 

But my story is just that... it is mine. I know others have great stories of home churching and others with great church building experiences. I presently attend a church that brings me peace and delight... it is a comfort and I enjoy the wisdom taught there and what it offers to us.

[elegantlion]

I didn't want to hijack that thread, but a thought kept nagging at me as I was reading all the posts from those who found reasons to leave their churches over negative experiences...

 

How can you be sure that you are "growing" and "closer" to the Lord when you simply worship alone and with your family? I mean, the Scriptures teach that the heart is deceitful above all things. So, if you are left alone as the barometer of your Christian walk, aren't you taking a very real risk in trusting the human heart as opposed to the Body of Christ??

 

I truly don't want to make anyone defensive or offended. I am sincerely wondering how there is any level of accountability in such an arrangement? We all know of seemingly very strong believers that have slowly wandered away, grown cold in their faith... How can any of us be so confident that we will be different?

 

Yes, the early Church was organized. The Bible itself came FROM the Church, not the other way around. I am looking so forward to studying Church history with my kids (another wonderful gift in hs!).

 

The local church is flawed and imperfect. Hmmm, just like me.

 

Kim

 

I am looking forward to studying church history as well. We are digging into a lot of the next year.

 

To answer your question I feel very accountable even though we are not in a church. God, not man, has always been my authority. I have people in my life that hold me accountable too.

 

We moved and left behind a church I was very involved in. Teaching, involved in multiple ministries. I was doing good within the "body of Christ." I trusted many people in the church. After we left God revealed some things to me that make me realize that I had been too dependent upon their "human hearts" and not Him. I realized that some of their influence had been judgmental, unforgiving, and without grace. (I'm being vague here on purpose) These were not the things that God had revealed to me about Himself in His word.

 

We started attending a church here and went for a year. I only had two friends from that church and they quit calling as soon as we left, even though I had explained our reasons for leaving and they understood. Is that accountability?

 

I truly find it is easier to keep my heart focused on Him. I have seen him move in my life and that of my familys. He will never leave nor forsake us. My family has grown closer and our vision of what being a Christ follower has expanded.

[snickelfritz]

Just to clarify....you're quoting the OP, not my post, under which yours falls.

 

That's why I always quote who I'm referring to.:D

 

I probably do that often (put something under someone's name) without intending to.

[Blessedfamily]

I think I understand what you're asking. Rather than trying to answer this myself, I'm going to paste in an excerpt from the blog entry linked by KathyBC. You can find the entire entry here: http://lifestream.org/LSBL.May01.html

 

But don't our institutions keep us from error?

I'm sorry to burst your bubble here, but every major heresy that has been inflicted on God's people for the last 2,000 years has come from organized groups with 'leaders' who thought they knew God's mind better than anyone around them. Conversely, virtually every move of God among people hungering for him was rejected by the 'church' of that day and were excluded, excommunicated or executed for following God.

If that is where you hope to find security, I'm afraid it is sorely misplaced. Jesus didn't tell us that 'going to church' would keep us safe, but that trusting him would. He gave us an anointing of the Spirit so that we would know the difference between truth and error. That anointing is cultivated as we learn his ways in his Word and grow closer to his heart. It will help you recognize when expressions of church you share life with becomes destructive to his work in you.

 

I don't just trust my feelings. I go to scripture when I'm not sure about something. If anything, I think it was dependence on my feelings that allowed me to stay in a church for 14 years that was doctrinally unsound, and spiritually manipulative. I'm not being defensive here. I'm just trying to answer your question as honestly as I can.

Lori

 

ETA: This is in response to OP.

 

 

 

Heresy may have come from church leaders and church leaders may have rejected moves of God, but we're still exhorted to assemble with other believers. In the cases of people who have been in a church with an errant pastor or other chaos, that's just one congregation. If you leave and go to another, that is still assembling with believers according to scripture. Every church will have people who do something we don't agree with or hurt us because people make mistakes, see things differently, and still need to grow in Christ.

 

Remember,

 

These problems within the church were already in existence when the new testament was written. And you'll find in church history they escalated when the apostles died.

 

Paul tackled these problems of heresies and rejecting moves of God strongly in several of his letters to the churches-

 

Gal 3:1 "O ye foolish Galations, who hath bewitched you that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth..."

 

Gal 1:6,7 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him that called you into the Grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the Gospel of Christ."

 

And yet he still exhorted the assembling together as Nestof 3 has quoted below.

 

 

I've been churchless myself and don't think people always "backslide" or whatever term people use. I'm just saying that the OP is bringing up a valid point.

 

 

 

 

I prefer to look at what scripture says about things rather than respond with my own opinions and reactions (don't we all have opinions?), so I would like to just say this:

 

Hebrews 10-24-25

and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging {one another;} and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

 

1 Cor 12:14-21 (just quoting part here)

And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."

 

My thoughts on this:

Though I do not see the scriptures insisting that one must always attend a "formal church service" (in fact that could be its own can of worms), regular meeting together of believers is definitely an exhortation in the scripture. Though certainly not always the case, often when people get out of the habit of meeting with other believers, one also gets out of the habit of studying scripture on one's own.

 

 

 

I would encourage you to study the benefits of accountability in the scripture. I'm not sure what you mean by "salvation stuff" and reserved seating, though.

 

I agree, and I think for me (an introvert), actually the second scripture is harder to follow than the first. All who are Christlike (Christian) are one body. One part can't say I don't really need another part. And it's not just what we get from others in the body of Christ, it's what they get from us.

 

When I left a church, people kindly told me how much my presence meant to them. There has to be a balance of giving and receiving or you get drained.

 

 

 

ETA: And yes, a church most certainly can be held at home. That is scriptural because the church (body of Christ) is people, not a building. Also the early church did this though they had several reasons. Some don't like home churches, but it's sometimes necessary and it sometimes works well.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Blessedfamily

[Ria]

12 years ago we got a new pastor at our church. We've watched this man systematically ruin what was once a thriving, active congregation. To make a very long story short, we left for about five years and returned last spring. Things had gotten so bad that the elders were requiring the pastor to submit his sermon for review prior to allowing him to preach it (he once stood in the pulpit and said he didn't know if he believed in Christ...believe me when I say this was not a good situation). I listened to one of the sermons this summer and knew it wasn't his work. Sure enough, when the elders looked back at those sermons he'd turned in, all of them were stolen, or at least parts of them were. This was not a case of the man not knowing how to properly cite a source...he took full credit for these sermons. Once he was confronted, he resigned.

 

I will not go back until he's gone. Two more Sundays, to be exact.

 

I think all of us have our reasons for not attending Church. I believe that God knows our hearts.

 

Ria

[Nestof3]

To echo lovelearnandlive, are you assuming that all people who stop going to church cut out contact with all of the Christians in their lives?

 

If you really read my post for what I said, you would see that I said it didn't have to happen in organized Church.

[bkpan]

Perhaps because this is a very sensitive subject for me, yes, I find myself offended and defensive about your post. I understand that you say you didn't intend it to be judgemental and offensive, but I bristled. Forgive me; I"m just being honest.

 

I guess what I don't understand, and maybe it's because I"m not a "good enough Christian" (my words) is why it's not enough to live a Christian life, be a good person, be Christlike in my words and deeds? I know it gets into all that "salvation" stuff, but it's my belief that the kingdom of Heaven isn't reserved seating. When it comes to faith, I don't, personally, feel the need to be "accountable" to anyone but my own conscience at least at this stage in my life.

 

I don't mean to come off sounding rude or disrespectful. I felt moved to respond, and did so thoughtfully and from the heart. But I"d be lying if I didn't add that I've got wicked cold feet about clicking the "post" button. Ah.....krep. I probably shouldn't have even responded, and I don't mean to start a fight, just sharing my thoughts. It's late, and nothing good ever comes from posting here late at night.

 

Peace,

Astrid

 

I am sorry to have made you feel defensive. I was really wondering about a persistent question that keeps coming up in my mind, and I probably shouldn't have posted it here.

 

I guess that I just think of myself and how much I need the Church to guide me. As I look back over the decades that I have been a Christian, I see so many beliefs and understandings that I have had to change, renounce, and how my thinking has changed. I have to follow Christ, yet do I dare only trust "my understanding" of Who he is? It is a hard road no matter how we work out our salvation (with fear and trembling). I wasn't trying to judge anyone. His plans are too mysterious for me to have them figured out, lol.

 

Kim

[bkpan]

All human hearts are deceitful. Trusting your peers is not a fail-safe barometer, as they cannot truly read your heart; in addition peers have all the human failings present in their own hearts.

 

The Bible does NOT come from the Church, but is the inherent word of God.

 

 

 

To echo lovelearnandlive, are you assuming that all people who stop going to church cut out contact with all of the Christians in their lives? I study scripture more now than in the past. I guess I could quote scripture also.

For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

 

I'm presuming that spouses, parents, siblings are uniquely positioned to hold each other far more accountable than relative strangers could. We don't plan to form a cult anytime soon. :D In fact, I feel we have at least a bit more time to spend with others because so much of our time is not committed to a specific meeting.

 

There's my random, late-night .02. Pleasant dreams, all!

 

The Council at Laodicea specified the content of the bible as we know it — 39 years after the First Ecumenical Council (AD 325). The Scriptures are Holy, His Words to us, but how can we deny that the Church wasn't here first - since the Scriptures were authored by men, inspired by the Holy Spirit, at different times - and hundreds of years later the Church made the decision, again, inspired by the Holy Spirit, what to leave in and what to throw out.

 

There have been heresies started and confusion, but historically, it was the Church councils that gave the correction and the guidance that His people required.

 

I guess it's just my understanding and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything different.

 

Kim

[astrid]

That's why I always quote who I'm referring to.:D

 

I probably do that often (put something under someone's name) without intending to.

 

No problem! I'm a Hybrid View Girl myself!

 

Astrid

[Laura K (NC)]

It is contradictory to say that there is no need for an organized church, but to reap the benefits of a vastly organized church, like the canonization of scripture, the doctrine of the trinity, the realization of the two natures of Christ, and the other myriad ways that the Holy Spirit works when a group of people gather in Jesus' name. It seems to be very possessive of God, as if Christ is here with me, or just with us, but in larger groups it is not possible for Christ to be found.

 

It seems, to me, to come down to a problem with other individuals, not with a large group of Christians, however organized.

 

Someone very close to me left our church based on very faulty understanding of the church (heresay) and with personal problems with individuals. It was sad for me, because the body of Christ does have Christ for a head, and to reject the body, to me, is rejecting something that Christ instituted and desired, and Christ is a part of, regardless of whatever incidental, local cancers plague it. Christ asked for unity, so it seems to me that we should become even more closely knit together, not splintered further.

[astrid]

I am sorry to have made you feel defensive. I was really wondering about a persistent question that keeps coming up in my mind, and I probably shouldn't have posted it here.

 

 

 

Oh no, don't apologize! It made me uncomfortable, but I"m fine with that, really, and just wanted to share my gut reaction to the question because it lent some context to my answer, KWIM? You have every right to post it here......and I had every right to either ignore it or answer, which I chose to do. I"m not sorry I read your question, nor replied. It's good to think about things that freak you out, you know? :001_smile:

 

I'm reading the thread with interest, so thank you!

 

Peace,

Astrid

[astrid]

I would encourage you to study the benefits of accountability in the scripture. I'm not sure what you mean by "salvation stuff" and reserved seating, though.

 

What I mean is that whole belief structure that only allows for a certain "chosen" few to enter Heaven. Only Christians. Only Christians who have done X,Y,Z. Only Catholics. Only Baptists. Only born-agains. Whatever. These are only examples, but ones about which I have been personally made aware over the years.

 

Just wanted to clarify.

 

Peace,

Astrid

[hillfarm]

IMO, the Bible calls us all to worship both as a group and as individuals. In all things, moderation. Too much of either one seems to leave us lacking. Exclusive church worship leads to a person who has only a shallow personal relationship with God. Exclusive private (or family-only) worship leads to developing a distorted view of oneself in the eyes of God. To do either at the complete exclusion of the other is disobedience, plain and simple.

 

I realize that many have been badly hurt by things that have gone on in corporate worship situations. This happened to dh and I and we were quite close to deciding to "do" church at home. But I (and I speak for myself and my family only) was convicted through Bible study and prayer that God would not accept "They did me wrong" or "I got my feelings badly hurt" as an excuse to stay away from the fellowship of Believers and corporate worship as He directs in the Bible.

 

I considered the examples of several others I knew at that time who were doing private worship. God brought to my attention many examples of problems with this type of arrangement. It seemed that He wasn't joking about iron sharpening iron and the need for Believers to meet together. I saw how removing ones self from worship with others can lead to a lack of accountability and running headlong and sincerely in the wrong direction.

 

Of course there are congregations that have done the same thing. But at least with a group, it is more likely that the Holy Spirit will be able to get through to someone and through them admonish the group to caution. IMO, one of the big problems we have in churches today is that so few of us are willing to rock the boat if things are going wrong. Who has the nerve to speak up and say, "Pastor, that is not what my Bible says.", and to do so publicly. No where were we promised that church would be easy, a shelter where we would be "fed". Christ is the source of that, not men and we will surely be sadly disappointed if we expect otherwise.

 

In my Bible study, I found that corporate gatherings of Believers were for the purpose of worshiping God as a group and for breaking bread together. That's it. No Youth Group, no Bingo, no Ladies' Bible Study. (Not that these are bad activities, just not ones that I feel God directed the church to provide.) God convicted me that I was expecting church to be a comforting refuge, school, and respite from strife and that was not what He intended it to be. I believe that is why I got so upset when it turned out to be a challenging meeting of Believers with differing views (hands, feet, eyes, hands) of what should be done and all those unpleasant unBelievers mixed in to further complicate things. Full of flawed leaders and deception. Then my Sunday School teacher reminded us that while the church is full of sinners and hypocrites, she would rather be sitting next to them in church than frying next to them in Hell.

 

In the end, I feel that I will be held personally responsible for all my decisions before the throne of judgement. And I don't think it will cut much ice to tell God that some of my siblings-in-Christ were acting ugly so I quite obeying His direction to worship with that bunch of jerks.

[KathyBC]

It is contradictory to say that there is no need for an organized church, but to reap the benefits of a vastly organized church, like the canonization of scripture, the doctrine of the trinity, the realization of the two natures of Christ, and the other myriad ways that the Holy Spirit works when a group of people gather in Jesus' name. It seems to be very possessive of God, as if Christ is here with me, or just with us, but in larger groups it is not possible for Christ to be found.

 

 

 

I don't believe anyone is saying there is no need for an organized church. Rather, there may not be a need for every Christian to always attend a church at every stage of their lives. YMMV.

[KathyBC]

The Council at Laodicea specified the content of the bible as we know it — 39 years after the First Ecumenical Council (AD 325). The Scriptures are Holy, His Words to us, but how can we deny that the Church wasn't here first - since the Scriptures were authored by men, inspired by the Holy Spirit, at different times - and hundreds of years later the Church made the decision, again, inspired by the Holy Spirit, what to leave in and what to throw out.

 

There have been heresies started and confusion, but historically, it was the Church councils that gave the correction and the guidance that His people required.

 

I guess it's just my understanding and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything different.

 

Kim

 

This would still be God working through men, not the other way around. God worked through lone men like the Old Testament prophets, and through groups. Their correction and guidance still came from Him. The church body is His creation, in whatever form it takes.

[Tess in the Burbs]

since everyone is in a different place in their faith journey there is nothing anyone here can say to understand the other...

 

we have left church and done our own thing before but always go back, but now we go firm in our beliefs and not what they are feeding us(theology is my new hobby). I stand firm in my beliefs and can better deal with the stuff that happens in church b/c I am not confused on why people do the things they do.

 

that said...if you feel comfortable at home then trust God will lead you down the right path! If you feel the need of a group to guide you, then be in that group! it's no different than some dieters who can lose 100 pounds alone vs people who need a group meeting weekly to get 10 pounds off.

 

it comes down to trust. trusting yourself. trusting that you are hearing God's call in your life and I can tell you that we all appreciated the time at home worshiping together this fall...we all grew spiritually and now that we are in a church again I am firm in my beliefs and say no often b/c I can see where and when I want to put my efforts into their activities. We do what we know God would be pleased with. we trust our hearts in that area.

 

good luck to all who are making the choice of where to worship...home is fine. in a church body is fine. be where you know God wants you at that moment!

[lynn]

since everyone is in a different place in their faith journey there is nothing anyone here can say to understand the other...

 

we have left church and done our own thing before but always go back, but now we go firm in our beliefs and not what they are feeding us(theology is my new hobby). I stand firm in my beliefs and can better deal with the stuff that happens in church b/c I am not confused on why people do the things they do.

 

that said...if you feel comfortable at home then trust God will lead you down the right path! If you feel the need of a group to guide you, then be in that group! it's no different than some dieters who can lose 100 pounds alone vs people who need a group meeting weekly to get 10 pounds off.

 

it comes down to trust. trusting yourself. trusting that you are hearing God's call in your life and I can tell you that we all appreciated the time at home worshiping together this fall...we all grew spiritually and now that we are in a church again I am firm in my beliefs and say no often b/c I can see where and when I want to put my efforts into their activities. We do what we know God would be pleased with. we trust our hearts in that area.

 

good luck to all who are making the choice of where to worship...home is fine. in a church body is fine. be where you know God wants you at that moment!

 

Thank you for saying this Tess.

[KathyBC]

God meets and leads us where we are.

[LBC]

since everyone is in a different place in their faith journey there is nothing anyone here can say to understand the other...

 

we have left church and done our own thing before but always go back, but now we go firm in our beliefs and not what they are feeding us(theology is my new hobby). I stand firm in my beliefs and can better deal with the stuff that happens in church b/c I am not confused on why people do the things they do.

 

that said...if you feel comfortable at home then trust God will lead you down the right path! If you feel the need of a group to guide you, then be in that group! it's no different than some dieters who can lose 100 pounds alone vs people who need a group meeting weekly to get 10 pounds off.

 

it comes down to trust. trusting yourself. trusting that you are hearing God's call in your life and I can tell you that we all appreciated the time at home worshiping together this fall...we all grew spiritually and now that we are in a church again I am firm in my beliefs and say no often b/c I can see where and when I want to put my efforts into their activities. We do what we know God would be pleased with. we trust our hearts in that area.

 

good luck to all who are making the choice of where to worship...home is fine. in a church body is fine. be where you know God wants you at that moment!

:iagree:

Yes, I think you make a good point. I can look back on the places that God has led me over the years, and although there have always been things that weren't perfect, He was always there to reveal Himself to me in different ways. There have been times of intense community where I have grown, and had rough edges smoothed away, and now I'm seeing His faithfulness in my life with the challenges of parenting, homeschooling, and running a family business to smooth out the rough edges. There are different seasons in life, and different needs that arise during each season.

Isaiah 40:11 (New International Version)

He tends his flock like a shepherd:

He gathers the lambs in his arms

and carries them close to his heart;

he gently leads those that have young.

 

Lori

[Happy]

:iagree:

Yes, I think you make a good point. I can look back on the places that God has led me over the years, and although there have always been things that weren't perfect, He was always there to reveal Himself to me in different ways. There have been times of intense community where I have grown, and had rough edges smoothed away, and now I'm seeing His faithfulness in my life with the challenges of parenting, homeschooling, and running a family business to smooth out the rough edges. There are different seasons in life, and different needs that arise during each season.

Isaiah 40:11 (New International Version)

He tends his flock like a shepherd:

He gathers the lambs in his arms

and carries them close to his heart;

he gently leads those that have young.

 

Lori

 

 

And may I add to the general discussion...often I am a part of a church body, not for what they can feed, lead, or give me, BUT for what I can give to them--both corporate and individual. I am in a place of experience in many ways. I've lost parents, had a wayward child, been infertile, adopted, homeschooled, lived overseas, owned a business, etc.....I'm there to be a guiding hand, helping heart, soft shoulder for others. Because through all of that LIFE stuff, God and others have been teaching and leading me. It's is my turn to share that wisdom.

 

One of my favorite people says...church would be great if it wasn't for all those pesky people in it.

[lionfamily1999]

I congregate with Christians all the time. Cub Scouts, family dinners, outings, now homeschool outings. I do not go to church, because I have not found one I am comfortable in. That does not keep me from discussing, talking, engaging, etc. My family, mother, father, brother, sil, bil, sister, all discuss/argue/talk/pray together. My gramma and I have incredible arguments and discussions over Christianity, the Bible and 'what it all means.'

 

You don't need a building to congregate. You don't need to go to church to find God, or other Christians. Some people prefer that route, and good for them, they put together the Easter and Christmas pageants I enjoy so much. Other people, myself included, prefer a less 'established' system.

 

Either way, God doesn't want you living under a rock. Isn't that the whole point? To get input, to gather, to remind and love and support? I'm no Scrooge, neither am I Tammi Faye (sp, sorry).

[Retired]

I posted on the other thread. I can say that I miss church service and fellowship but actually being along for the pass 2 years with my family and my bible has helped me grow spiritually.

 

I would put it similar to Paul in prison, Jesus in the wilderness. The experience in my last church hurt me so much but through the experience and being in God's word and fellowship has made a hurtful experience draw me closer to the lord.

 

I do pray for a church family again. I believe that the Lord knows what each person needs. He will lead you. I have seen what organized religion and people being dedicated to a religious doctrine having never studied the bible them elves makes me not see Church as the end- all -to -be -all for Christan's.

 

I love the idea of the original house churches but my DH is not interested.

 

 

 

I

[Marylou]

I just stumbled upon this thread and thought I would share a book that I just finished reading. It's called Christless Christianity by Michael Horton.

 

Also, what was the "original thread" that others are mentioning?

[H.S. Burrow]

I just stumbled upon this thread and thought I would share a book that I just finished reading. It's called Christless Christianity by Michael Horton.

 

Also, what was the "original thread" that others are mentioning?

 

Thank you for finding this! I missed it the first time around. I have so enjoyed reading everyone's very thoughtful responses. So much so that I went and found the original thread so I could read those.

 

I just love this board....I really, really do!!:)

[lynn]

I didn't want to hijack that thread, but a thought kept nagging at me as I was reading all the posts from those who found reasons to leave their churches over negative experiences...

 

How can you be sure that you are "growing" and "closer" to the Lord when you simply worship alone and with your family? I mean, the Scriptures teach that the heart is deceitful above all things. So, if you are left alone as the barometer of your Christian walk, aren't you taking a very real risk in trusting the human heart as opposed to the Body of Christ??

 

I truly don't want to make anyone defensive or offended. I am sincerely wondering how there is any level of accountability in such an arrangement? We all know of seemingly very strong believers that have slowly wandered away, grown cold in their faith... How can any of us be so confident that we will be different?

 

Yes, the early Church was organized. The Bible itself came FROM the Church, not the other way around. I am looking so forward to studying Church history with my kids (another wonderful gift in hs!).

 

The local church is flawed and imperfect. Hmmm, just like me.

 

Kim

 

Why do you ask? I am offended. I will not write a long explanation defending myself because guess what I am accountable only to God, not men.

[dhudson]

I find this discussion interesting. In fact we recently left a church where bad stuff happened but we stayed and worked through it and grew more into Christians who had compassion and mercy and were able to give others the benefit of the doubt (no my strong suit). We left when there were no big emergencies or crisis' so that we left all of relationships in tact and we had many of them, 11 years worth. We left this church because we didn't feel like it supported the goals that we have for our family which we believe God gave us. We found one that does and it's great. However, the reason that we go to an organized (or semi-organized) church is because God says that we are not forsake assembling with each other. I know that we can go outside the church to do this but where else do you go where there are not necessarily people you like or admire or agree with and you have to love them. "Love one another as I have loved you", Jesus says. I have to love them even if I don't like them. I generally don't pick friends that I don't like, so I don't get the opportunity to learn to love unconditionally. I need their iron to sharpen against.

 

I also go to church for my children. There they can find others who believe the same thing (mostly) that they do. Where else can we find that? I think my kids need to know that they are not the people that believe like they do. They are not alone and together we can stand against the tide.

 

 

Just my thoughts...

[mrsdash]

I stopped going when I figured out if was more of a business than anything else. And I can't stand the "membership" mentality.

[lionfamily1999]

I find this discussion interesting. In fact we recently left a church where bad stuff happened but we stayed and worked through it and grew more into Christians who had compassion and mercy and were able to give others the benefit of the doubt (no my strong suit). We left when there were no big emergencies or crisis' so that we left all of relationships in tact and we had many of them, 11 years worth. We left this church because we didn't feel like it supported the goals that we have for our family which we believe God gave us. We found one that does and it's great. However, the reason that we go to an organized (or semi-organized) church is because God says that we are not forsake assembling with each other. I know that we can go outside the church to do this but where else do you go where there are not necessarily people you like or admire or agree with and you have to love them. "Love one another as I have loved you", Jesus says. I have to love them even if I don't like them. I generally don't pick friends that I don't like, so I don't get the opportunity to learn to love unconditionally. I need their iron to sharpen against.

 

I also go to church for my children. There they can find others who believe the same thing (mostly) that they do. Where else can we find that? I think my kids need to know that they are not the people that believe like they do. They are not alone and together we can stand against the tide.

 

 

Just my thoughts...

Next door, down the street, to my parents house (giggle), family dinners, here ;)

[Dooley]

Without having read the thread, we have attended an abusive church, my sil was raped by a pastor too. Leaving our church ended up being very good for me, as I leaned MORE on Gods Word ONLY. Not what any pastor says, not what any group says. A lot of people unintentionally worship their pastor instead of the One who created him.

 

I found a wonderful site, http://www.phoenixpreacher.com, many of us have found a safe place to discuss what happened to us, our hurts and disappointments. There are pastors who post too. All in all, a wonderful place to find edifying discussions and healing.

 

God bless you all in your journey!

[Guest janainaz]

It is ironic how the same flawed heart also has God's laws written on it and is also where Christ lives once you become a new creation.

 

The Bible states we worship IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH. It also says where two or more are gathered together in my name, I am there.

 

We attend a small group, we fellowship and worship is more than singing the same songs over and over and over again. While I think it's fine to attend church, I also believe it fine to not. It is not about the building, the programs, the system. I can trust that as long as I'm seeking God, as long as I'm seeking truth, as long as I'm a child of God, I will know Him.

 

We find God in the hearts of other people wether it be the checker at our grocery store or the pastor of a church. It's about people and I fully disagree with anyone who tells me that I NEED "church" to grow spiritually. I believe many churches have become manipulative, money hungry and corrupt. Yet, God can STILL do his mighty work through the flaws.

[Guest janainaz]

Without having read the thread, we have attended an abusive church, my sil was raped by a pastor too. Leaving our church ended up being very good for me, as I leaned MORE on Gods Word ONLY. Not what any pastor says, not what any group says. A lot of people unintentionally worship their pastor instead of the One who created him.

 

I found a wonderful site, http://www.phoenixpreacher.com, many of us have found a safe place to discuss what happened to us, our hurts and disappointments. There are pastors who post too. All in all, a wonderful place to find edifying discussions and healing.

 

God bless you all in your journey!

 

Yeah! My dh is on this site a lot. He also started a journey group on facebook. If you are interested, pm me and I'll send over the link.

[OnTheBrink]

Why do you ask? I am offended. I will not write a long explanation defending myself because guess what I am accountable only to God, not men.

 

You're free to answer or not answer any thread on the board. There's no need to take the OP's question personally.

[katemary63]

IMO, the Bible calls us all to worship both as a group and as individuals. In all things, moderation. Too much of either one seems to leave us lacking. Exclusive church worship leads to a person who has only a shallow personal relationship with God. Exclusive private (or family-only) worship leads to developing a distorted view of oneself in the eyes of God. To do either at the complete exclusion of the other is disobedience, plain and simple.

 

 

In the end, I feel that I will be held personally responsible for all my decisions before the throne of judgement. And I don't think it will cut much ice to tell God that some of my siblings-in-Christ were acting ugly so I quite obeying His direction to worship with that bunch of jerks.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

Also, one of the most important aspects of corporate fellowship for me is the way that God ministers to his people through each other. I have often been given oportunities to minister to others in the "family" who have been hurt or who are going through illnesses or misfortunes. God often provides physical "care" for his children through others who are in the family of Christ. Belonging to a Church family exposes you to that on a regular basis.

[Aubrey]

Finding an organized church to attend can be such a difficult thing, filled w/ conflicting emotions, etc. It's particularly hard for me because the older I get, the harder it is for me to be around people. Esp in settings like...well, church. I don't know what it is. They're not all that way, but...for a while I was convinced that I couldn't do it. At all.

 

Then dh wanted to go to seminary. Well, he'd wanted to go all along, but then we came. I felt so much more pressure to *be* a certain way.

 

Here's the thing, though. The body of Christ is not a building or a meeting time or place or a particular group of people having fellowship. Salvation (imo) doesn't depend upon meeting w/ people on Sundays. Accountability is often found in friendships closer than those that you encounter in the Sun AM niceties.

 

So why meet? Why not stay home to worship? (We have at various times done this, so I'm not knocking that.) In the end, I think it's *because* we're the body. Together, we can accomplish things we could never do independently.

 

Think about locusts. One isn't a problem. Together, though, they can ravish the land quickly. I should probably have thought of a positive comparison here, but I'm notorious for really bad analogies, so there ya go. ;) Imagine locusts working for good. :lol:

 

I try to imagine what Jesus would do in the situations I find myself in. Imagine a circle of influence, from cars on the road, to checkers at the grocery store, to siblings & friends. If ea of the people I encounter can be touched by Jesus' love, & if there's an army of other people living out their lives in the same way, then the circles of love & sacrifice & peace & forgiveness begin to overlap. That's what I think of when I pray, "Your kingdom come." I imagine that ea person I serve, ea person I forgive, is territory won for God. Territory w/in my heart.

 

Imagine an army that marches w/ blankets, food, mercy, love. One person doing that makes history. A bunch of people doing it together makes the Church.

[FlockOfSillies]

I'm not sure what you mean by "salvation stuff" and reserved seating, though.

 

I think she's saying that she believes that everyone (or darn near everyone) is going to heaven.

 

Oh wait. She answered you. Duh. Sorry.

Edited March 6, 2009 by FlockOfSillies
Must read ahead next time

[FlockOfSillies]

Just to encourage you, Kim, here's a link to a post (followed by this one )that hits this topic pretty hard and straight. So many of the responses you gotten here have to do with people's feelings, not with what Scripture actually commands us to do.

 

This is also another good one.

Edited March 6, 2009 by FlockOfSillies
Linking to even more bloggy goodness

[newlifemom]

Just to encourage you, Kim, here's a link to a post (followed by this one )that hits this topic pretty hard and straight. So many of the responses you gotten here have to do with people's feelings, not with what Scripture actually commands us to do.

 

This is also another good one.

 

Absolutely fascinating.

[emeraldjoy]

I suppose one's definition of church may be part of the confusion.

For example, this (as in us folks on the WTM boards having a discussion about Jesus, church, the bible. etc) is *my* defintion of church. I may not go to a building regularly but I do often take part in discussions and fellowship similar to what I believe Jesus would have been part of back in the day.

 

My time is precious as well as the condition of my emtions; I cannot afford to let either of them be wasted or abused. I certainly think my Creator understands this about me and wont let me drift too far from him because of it.

 

The original post, I feel, was somewhat offensive and, I also feel, also somewhat intentional. Honestly, rather than serving a purpose of encouraging me aboutthat type of church attendance, it has sufficed to deter me even further.

 

Emerald