WWYD? Daughter bought fish

[Tap]

How would you handle this? DD16 has been told multiple times, she can not have a pet fish. She has had one most of her growing up years and once the last one died, I said no more. She is Autistic and doesn't take good care of them. It becomes a battle between us, when I ask her to clean the tank. So I end up doing it myself. Which....I am very tired of doing. She has a dog, so she doesn't need something to take care of. When I got home last night, she said "I am sorry, I know this will make you mad, but I bought a fish....." 

I told her that her apology means nothing, because she isn't sorry. It was on purpose and she doesn't regret it. So, no, I won't accept her apology. (I have to be direct with her, she doesn't understand nuance in conversation).

It is a Beta so minimal upkeep but when we are gone from the house for a week or so at a time, I now have to get someone to feed the fish. Or buy week long feeders and keep the heat/AC on to keep the temp in normal range (no tank heater) which obviously costs money. We are often gone for 3-4 days once/twice a month or so. I usually keep my fish in a one to two gallon glass vase on the kitchen counter, so it isn't like a small aquarium to take to someone else's house to pet sit or with us. Plus that is hard on the fish!

Beyond he knowing I am upset, what do I do? I am irritated, but not steaming mad. I just really really didn't want a new fish to take care of. My last vase was thrown away (thinking no more fish! YAY) so now I have to go find one I will want and pay for it. I hate to see fish in too small of a container where they can never swim in a straight line, so a regular fish bowl won't work here.  And she very, very clearly knew that I didn't want another fish in the house.  She doesn't not have her own money. And while I can pay her to do a chore, to pay for the sitter, food, tank etc....again, it is really just me paying for it all. And when they die, it puts her in an emotional tail spin for weeks. She sobs and has huge feelings about her fish passing, then she completes the week long wake with a funeral. I really, really don't want to go thru this again. 

 

Edited for a bit more info and Update:

It isn't an Autism related obsession. I had a 45gallon reef tank when she came to live with me (she is my bio niece that came to me at 5mo). I like fish a lot, but am also fussy about their care.  She just doesn't like to deal with the dirty water, washing all of the rocks, and that it takes one/two days to change the water (waiting for water to cure get to right temp) etc before cleaning the tank. She says she will do the work, but I know she will get tired of it quickly and I will be caring for it again.

She received multiple kind warnings when her last fish was alive, it would be the end. So, she knew this wasn't going to happen. She has a dog (which my other kids didn't) so she graduated to furry creatures. LOL

 

I told her she needs to take it to her father's house, or get rid of it. We will see if he will let her have it there. He doesn't care as much as I do about fish, so he may not mind. If he won't let her have it there, she will have to give it away.  Ugh.  Thanks everyone for not making me feel horrible about wanting to get rid of the fish. I know it is a small thing, but I really hate that she tried to just apologize and do what she wanted anyways. 
 

 

Update two:

I told her she had to figure out a solution without me being involved. She chose to break the rules, she can’t expect me to go out of my way to solve the problem of getting rid of the fish. If she can’t solve it, my solution is that it is given away. It might sound harsh, but it was blatant disobedience. She knew I was going to be upset, and did it anyways. 
 

She got permission from her teacher to take it there. She is going to trade me a target gift card for a fish bowl. (Can’t buy one there). She can have the left over fish supplies from the house, but has to buy any replacements from future gift cards ( usually gets an Amazon card or two each year).  She is ok with this solution. I just hope when it dies, they get to have the wake snd funeral lol. We have had bettas live 5 years tho… so she will probably be graduating by then.
 

Thanks again. I feel bad for not helping her figure it out, but we are continually working on her independence and this is part of what she needs to learn. She did great and if anything it turned out to be a positive step for her. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Tap

[Condessa]

Make her get rid of it.

[Faith-manor]

Personally, I would say, "I told you no pets. This is my house. I pay for everything. You will find a home for the fish or I will. It is not staying. If you want a fish when you are grown and living on your own. By all means, get one."

[PeterPan]

I would pick a period of time to keep it, like two weeks, then donate it to someone. And don't hide it, just tell her upfront the plan is to keep it two weeks to enjoy (just like roses or anything else pretty lasts a finite period of time) and that you will then donate it. Go ahead and choose the place you're donating it to TODAY so there's no wondering or delaying. I think any administrator at a local therapy or clinic you frequent would love to have a betta, and then you can see it when you visit. 

[PeterPan]

Just now, Faith-manor said:

Personally, I would say, "I told you no pets. This is my house. I pay for everything. You will find a home for the fish or I will. It is not staying. If you want a fish when you are grown and living on your own. By all means, get one."

This is not personal, just saying about our house. Punishment requirements ability to understand cause/effect and ultimatums require the ability to problem solve. Both are affected in autism and clearly this person struggles with them. So the MOM has to problem solve this. I would choose to validate that she likes beautiful things and has a gentle heart that wanted a fish. I would lean in on that and help her for a brief period. And I would problem solve and have it agreed that it WILL BE DONATED at the prescribed time.

 

[PeterPan]

The tendency with challenging people is to want to control. It's controlling the situation to say you are going to toss that fish, flush it, whatever. It's embracing that they are fallible people with disabilities to find a compromise that works. She clearly is not ever going to have the skills to care for a fish. Caring for a pet or an animal reflects where she's at developmentally. Have you thought about connecting her with a job that involves caring for something? It might meet this need she's identifying without it being more than she can do. Around here we have agriculture/greenhouse programs for autism and the people use it as transition and even long term work. It's WONDERFUL that she wants to nurture something, so you can try to turn it into something she *can* nurture.

If you problem solve this together and compromise and talk it out with her, you're teaching her valuable skills. You want to be practicing the collaborative problem solving skills you want her to have going forward into adulthood.

Edited September 11, 2023 by PeterPan

[catz]

If dragging it out won't work, I would just take it back and return it.  I wouldn't ask for a refund.  I'm guessing the less time it spends in your house the better.  Unless you know people who have fish all the time, rehoming sounds emotional and time consuming.  

[Condessa]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

This is not personal, just saying about our house. Punishment requirements ability to understand cause/effect and ultimatums require the ability to problem solve. Both are affected in autism and clearly this person struggles with them. So the MOM has to problem solve this. I would choose to validate that she likes beautiful things and has a gentle heart that wanted a fish. I would lean in on that and help her for a brief period. And I would problem solve and have it agreed that it WILL BE DONATED at the prescribed time.

Unless her autism is severe enough that she cannot be expected to understand and follow simple directions, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to not allow her to benefit after she chose to directly disobey.  Tap’s description doesn’t sound like that.

 

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

The tendency with challenging people is to want to control. It's controlling the situation to say you are going to toss that fish, flush it, whatever. It's embracing that they are fallible people with disabilities to find a compromise that works. She clearly is not ever going to have the skills to care for a fish. Caring for a pet or an animal reflects where she's at developmentally. Have you thought about connecting her with a job that involves caring for something? It might meet this need she's identifying without it being more than she can do. Around here we have agriculture/greenhouse programs for autism and the people use it as transition and even long term work. It's WONDERFUL that she wants to nurture something, so you can try to turn it into something she *can* nurture.

Nobody suggested flushing it.  By “get rid of it” I meant from the household-by taking it back to the store, or giving it away, listing it on Craigslist, whatever.

[Condessa]

30 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

This is not personal, just saying about our house. Punishment requirements ability to understand cause/effect and ultimatums require the ability to problem solve. Both are affected in autism and clearly this person struggles with them. So the MOM has to problem solve this. I would choose to validate that she likes beautiful things and has a gentle heart that wanted a fish. I would lean in on that and help her for a brief period. And I would problem solve and have it agreed that it WILL BE DONATED at the prescribed time.

To be fair, she didn’t suggest punishing her.  Enforcing previously given rules isn’t a punishment, it’s just following through.  A punishment would be if she was given a negative consequence for her actions.  Not having a fish isn’t a negative consequence, it’s just the baseline that was set for the household.

[kbutton]

34 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I would pick a period of time to keep it, like two weeks, then donate it to someone. And don't hide it, just tell her upfront the plan is to keep it two weeks to enjoy (just like roses or anything else pretty lasts a finite period of time) and that you will then donate it. Go ahead and choose the place you're donating it to TODAY so there's no wondering or delaying. I think any administrator at a local therapy or clinic you frequent would love to have a betta, and then you can see it when you visit. 

Fellow ASD mom. The time period is key. It gives time for her to adjust. It might involve dread and mourning for both of you, like an extinction burst, but this a lot less work for you in the long run and imposes a developmentally appropriate consequence.

I’m sorry you are stuck in this situation. 

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, Condessa said:

To be fair, she didn’t suggest punishing her.  Enforcing previously given rules isn’t a punishment, it’s just following through.  A punishment would be if she was given a negative consequence for her actions.  Not having a fish isn’t a negative consequence, it’s just the baseline that was set for the household.

Change PeterPan’s word “punishment” to consequence, and the words all still apply. 

[Katy]

Idk about time periods, I think that depends on the kid. But if you let her keep it you’re teaching her to railroad you because it works. Make her return it or give it away. Now or later. 

I wonder if one of those toy aquariums with plastic fish & bleach in the water would be a good compromise. 

[kbutton]

Are fish an obsessive interest by any chance?

Is this an impulse control issue as well?

I ask just because there may something that can be worked on around those areas that might make this less likely to happen again.

 

[Tap]

1 minute ago, kbutton said:

Are fish an obsessive interest by any chance?

Is this an impulse control issue as well?

I ask just because there may something that can be worked on around those areas that might make this less likely to happen again.

 

Nope. Not obsessive. My kids always had fish growing up, so she is just used to one being on the counter.

She received multiple kind warnings when her last fish was alive, it would be the end. She has a dog (which my other kids didn't) so she graduated to furry creatures. LOL I had a 45gallon reef tank when she came to live with me (she is my bio niece that came to me at 5mo). I like fish a lot, but am also fussy about their care.  She just doesn't like to deal with the dirty water, washing all of the rocks, and that it takes one/two days to change the water (waiting for water to cure get to right temp) etc before cleaning the tank.

[Condessa]

17 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Change PeterPan’s word “punishment” to consequence, and the words all still apply. 

Well, consequences happen all the time for everyone’s actions.  They happen whether one has the ability to understand cause and effect or not.  We jump up, we will come down.  We steal things and get caught, we get in trouble and don’t get to keep the stuff.  We ignore rules, rules are enforced by authority figures.  I don’t think that choosing not to give a positive consequence for choices (getting to have the fish) and instead sticking with the established neutral baseline (no fish) is equivalent to actively giving a punishment or negative consequence.

[PeterPan]

10 minutes ago, Tap said:

She received multiple kind warnings when her last fish was alive, it would be the end.

Warning --> I understand cause effect, I don't want what will happen, so I make a plan for how to deal with my feelings.

Very typical people are looking at this going it's enabling, it's caving to keep the fish at all. There's a way though to shift this and see it as learning how to collaborate and compromise. She had a problem (she wanted something in the moment) and she didn't know how to solve her problem (what to do with those feelings) and she made a choice that aggravates you. So all you need to do is make it better. 

Getting rid of the fish is pragmatic, but it doesn't teach her what to do with her feelings, doesn't help her learn to problem solve collaboratively. 

How do you want this to go down when she's 20? She's 16, not 8. She has agency and rights, even as a disabled person. She's able to make these minor choices. If she was 20 would you yank the fish and say I told you? Or would you be a little more respectful and say hey, that wasn't the ideal way to deal with those feelings but let's make this better? 

It's very hard to think long term in the moment. If you really don't have a good response, it's ok to say hey I don't know how to respond, let's wait 24 hours and  we'll problem solve this when I feel more calm. It's would be a way to approach it. No harm is done by waiting and thinking it through.

[Tap]

Update added to original post

I told her she needs to take it to her father's house, or get rid of it. We will see if he will let her have it there. He doesn't care as much as I do about fish, so he may not mind. If he won't let her have it there, she will have to give it away.  Ugh.  Thanks everyone for not making me feel horrible about wanting to get rid of the fish. I know it is a small thing, but I really hate that she tried to just apologize and do what she wanted anyways. 

[PeterPan]

Just now, Tap said:

Update added to original post

I told her she needs to take it to her father's house, or get rid of it. We will see if he will let her have it there. He doesn't care as much as I do about fish, so he may not mind. If he won't let her have it there, she will have to give it away.  Ugh.  Thanks everyone for not making me feel horrible about wanting to get rid of the fish. I know it is a small thing, but I really hate that she tried to just apologize and do what she wanted anyways. 

I love this!! Sounds like a great solution. 🙂

[EKS]

At that age, regardless of autism or whatever else, I'd focus on (truly) natural consequences as well as your own ethical stance.  I haven't read the replies, but from your OP, it sounds like (1) you don't want to take care of a fish and (2) you don't want the fish to suffer.  You can easily deal with the first issue.  Simply don't take care of the fish.  Unfortunately, going this route causes you to bump into the second issue.  So perhaps you could say to your daughter something like, "I don't want to take care of the fish, but I also don't want it to suffer from lack of care.  You need to do A, B, and C to care for it properly and when we go away you need to find someone to care for it.  If you do not do these things, I will rehome it without further discussion."  From what you've said here, it shouldn't take long for the rehoming to happen.

[kbutton]

14 minutes ago, Condessa said:

Well, consequences happen all the time for everyone’s actions.  They happen whether one has the ability to understand cause and effect or not.  We jump up, we will come down.  We steal things and get caught, we get in trouble and don’t get to keep the stuff.  We ignore rules, rules are enforced by authority figures.  I don’t think that choosing not to give a positive consequence for choices (getting to have the fish) and instead sticking with the established neutral baseline (no fish) is equivalent to actively giving a punishment or negative consequence.

And non-neurotypical people often don’t learn from those things. They often learn from slowing the process down and putting the consequence in perspective with time for the person to self-regulate so that they can do that learning. The consequence is not being removed in this suggestion; it’s being put on a time delay. 

Your responses in this thread are completely tone deaf. I hope you’re not someone who has ASD people in your life because if this is how you voluntarily reinterpret sound advice, you’re not safe.

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, kbutton said:

And non-neurotypical people often don’t learn from those things. They often learn from slowing the process down and putting the consequence in perspective with time for the person to self-regulate so that they can do that learning. The consequence is not being removed in this suggestion; it’s being put on a time delay. 

Your responses in this thread are completely tone deaf. I hope you’re not someone who has ASD people in your life because if this is how you voluntarily reinterpret sound advice, you’re not safe.

@Condessa

Quoting myself to clarify that a difference of opinion is one thing, but reinterpreting what someone else said to make it what you want it to say so that you can say it’s wrong, not once, but twice, is what I object to.

Edited September 11, 2023 by kbutton

[Condessa]

20 minutes ago, kbutton said:

@Condessa

Quoting myself to clarify that a difference of opinion is one thing, but reinterpreting what someone else said to make it what you want it to say so that you can say it’s wrong, not once, but twice, is what I object to.

Hey, I’ve got no problem with the suggestion of delaying consequences.  It’s not what I would do, but it’s great that Tap is getting multiple perspectives on her problem.  I do object to the suggestion that choosing not to reward a behavior is the same thing as punishing the behavior.  I don’t think it is reinterpreting what they said, as she literally said punishment and you literally said that a consequence is the same as a punishment.  Did I misunderstand something?  

[kbutton]

40 minutes ago, Condessa said:

Hey, I’ve got no problem with the suggestion of delaying consequences.  It’s not what I would do, but it’s great that Tap is getting multiple perspectives on her problem.  I do object to the suggestion that choosing not to reward a behavior is the same thing as punishing the behavior.  I don’t think it is reinterpreting what they said, as she literally said punishment and you literally said that a consequence is the same as a punishment.  Did I misunderstand something?  

Yes, but I don’t have the bandwidth today to explain. 

[Condessa]

11 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Yes, but I don’t have the bandwidth today to explain. 

I get that.  No hard feelings.  

[Dianthus]

Maybe she heard that forgiveness is easier than permission. Not reading replies, but I think it's good you are standing firm on your rule..

Edited September 11, 2023 by Dianthus

[kbutton]

34 minutes ago, Condessa said:

I get that.  No hard feelings.  

And maybe it was me. It’s not been a great fall in my house so far. 

[HS Mom in NC]

I have fish.

Consequence....punishment...neurodivergent....neurotypical...can understand cause and effect....can't understand cause and effect...WHATEVER....none of that actually matters on to the bottom line. We're all subject to reality whether we like it or understand it or not.  

The bottom line is that living creatures dependent on humans should only be under the care a human that is both willing and able to care for them properly. Neither the OP nor the OPs daughter fit that criteria, therefore regardless of neuroscience, emotions, relationships, etc. the only moral thing to do is to get that fish back to the store or to a private party that meets the criteria. It's not morally right to put a fish in inadequate care and it's not morally right to force someone else who didn't want it to begin with to care for the fish. 

Bye, fish.  Have a nice life somewhere else. Take it back to the pet store and be done already. Fishy needs a good fishy home today.

[Kassia]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I love this!! Sounds like a great solution. 🙂

I agree!  

[Condessa]

53 minutes ago, kbutton said:

And maybe it was me. It’s not been a great fall in my house so far. 

I’m sorry to hear that.  I hope things improve for you soon.

[MercyA]

If I wasn't willing to assume all care for the fish, I would not allow her to keep him. .

I would also not give the fish away to anyone who wanted him. I'd have to feel confident he was going to a good home. My first choice would be to relinquish him to a reputable animal / fish rescue or give him to someone who is already a "fish person." If I had no other better choice, I'd take him back to the store.

To search for a rescue group, go to Petfinder.com and look for fish available for adoption near you. You can then contact the rescue listing them. If that doesn't work, you can search for a small animal (birds, hamsters, etc.) rescue in your area. 

Sorry you are dealing with this, Tap.

[Quarter Note]

@PeterPan and @kbutton, you both are spot on!  Thank you both for your words - they helped me today, too.

@Tap, just following on to what PeterPan said about getting her in touch with her feelings - it's obvious that this fish is more than a fish, wouldn't you agree?  It meets some need of your daughter's.  Does the fish give a very calm, quiet presence to her that her dog doesn't?  

Also, just another thought:  Since you mentioned that you like fish as well, could your daughter's purchase be her way of saying, "I want to be like you" or "I want you to like me"?  Her intentions and feelings may still be genuinely innocent.

Hugs to you, Tap.  I get it.

[Idalou]

I'd take it back to the store and hope the next owner gives it a larger home or I'd buy a 10 gallon tank for Dad if he agrees. 

A betta fish should never live in a one or two gallon vase or tank. That's cruel. I know they're often seen in these cute little set ups but that is not how they're meant to live. It's comparable to putting a canary or parakeet in a $20 cage from Walmart. 

[Ausmumof3]

If she got it from a shop they shouldn’t be selling pets to minors anyway so I’d take it back there. 

[Clarita]

8 hours ago, Tap said:

I told her she needs to take it to her father's house, or get rid of it. We will see if he will let her have it there. He doesn't care as much as I do about fish, so he may not mind. If he won't let her have it there, she will have to give it away.  Ugh.  Thanks everyone for not making me feel horrible about wanting to get rid of the fish. I know it is a small thing, but I really hate that she tried to just apologize and do what she wanted anyways. 

If it makes you feel better I read the headline and was looking forward to telling you great fish recipes 😬.

[freesia]

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

If it makes you feel better I read the headline and was looking forward to telling you great fish recipes 😬.

Me, too. I thought she caught the fish in a lake or something!

[Tap]

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

If it makes you feel better I read the headline and was looking forward to telling you great fish recipes 😬.

I would love great fish recipes!! Lol but maybe in another thread hahaha 🤣 

[Tap]

Update two:

I told her she had to figure out a solution without me being involved. She chose to break the rules, she can’t expect me to go out of my way to solve the problem of getting rid of the fish. If she can’t solve it, my solution is that it is given away. It might sound harsh, but it was blatant disobedience. She knew I was going to be upset, and did it anyways. 
 

She got permission from her teacher to take it there. She is going to trade me a target gift card for a fish bowl. (Can’t buy one there). She can have the left over fish supplies from the house, but has to buy any replacements from future gift cards ( usually gets an Amazon card or two each year).  She is ok with this solution. I just hope when it dies, they get to have the wake snd funeral lol. We have had bettas live 5 years tho… so she will probably be graduating by then.
 

Thanks again. I feel bad for not helping her figure it out, but we are continually working on her independence and this is part of what she needs to learn. She did great and if anything it turned out to be a positive step for her. 

[bolt.]

I don't think you really need to "feel bad for not helping her figure it out" -- Her solution is far better than any of the proposed solutions that you (or your forum friends) came up with. She did a great job, and the job was hers to do. Why would that make anyone feel bad? Instead of feeling as if you let her down, try to see that you actually took a difficult situation and leveraged it into a fantastic opportunity to build her up. That's very skillful parenting. If she hadn't pushed the boundary, you would have never been able to manufacture an experience like this for her to learn from.

Also: this particular solution is *very* transferrable. "If I have something I want to do, but it's something I'm not always successful at -- I can seek partners and collaborate towards a plan. I can do lots of things that are a little beyond me, as long as I have willing partners. There's less anger if I seek partners' consent and work out the practical details before I make a big decision. I can't successfully force people to partner with me against their wishes-- not even family members. (No means no. Look elsewhere.)"